Fail to understand Moksha from Vishistadvaita and Dwaita point of view

[Guest guest]

 

As every one knows Moksha is the culmination of human life. According to Advaitha, this is equivalent to raising the consciousness level to that of god. As upanishads say, "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman itself.

 

Advaitha says: We think ourselves as individual waves instead of one single ocean. That is the reason we feel we are separate from God. This is caused by Maya or delusion. Once we raise above Maya, we become Brahman and there is no second. This is Moksha.

 

If we think intuitively, this seems to be true.

 

But from Vishishtadvaitha and Dwaitha points of view, we are either part or separate from God and will remain so forever. Then how can we attain moksha at all.

[Guest guest]

You wrote :

But from Vishishtadvaitha and Dwaitha points of view, we are either part or separate from God and will remain so forever. Then how can we attain moksha at all.

 

It is a good question. We need a SATGURU. As per my opinion . . . A sat-guru is the living God in human form. A sat-guru lives on Earth and Heaven both in his / her life time. He / she can tell us the way of salvation (Moksha).

The disciple is a drop of fragrant.

The sat-guru is the stream of fragrant.

The God is the Ocean of fragrant.

The drop merges into the stream, stream merges into the

Ocean. Then only Ocean. No drop . . . no stream . . . only

Oneness. No duality . . . no trinity.

So we should seek a real SAT-GURU.

 

[Guest guest]

Bhakti or devotional service

is the only way to attain Krsna.

Other paths of enlightenment are

inferior as confirmed by the Lord

Chaitanya himself.

 

---------------------krsnaraja---------

[Guest guest]

That does not clear my doubt. What I want to know is:

 

If God is always going to separate from us, what does attaining moksha means?

[Guest guest]

two pleasures are preferable to one pleasure

 

we are non different by god because we cannot be of a different matter or substance.. but we are also different because it is a fact that we are not supreme

 

so the true realization, the true moksa is to be one with god , but simultaneously separated to have the possibility to exchange loving relationships

 

love is possible only if there are multiple subjects.. not only one. Even if i say "i love myself "i am discriminating by me who's loving and a myself who is loved

 

advaita can maybe bring freedom from pain.. but we are not satisfacted by the simple ending of pain,we want happiness.. and happines is love, relationships and variety

 

so advaita is not complete because yes we are one with god, but where is the possibility of relationship and love with him?

 

dvaita is not complete because it is inpossible that we are not part of god, that we are not god even if in an infinitesimal, microscopic way

 

so the acynthia beda abeda tattva of sri chaitanya arises.. we are simultaneously different and non different.. so the real moksa is to be eternally engaged in loving relationships with the lord.. one and simultaneously different by him

 

like two lovers who are one thing, a couple, a family, a union... but they seek and find pleasure in their differences

[Guest guest]

Yes but it seems these philiosophers who keep starting up schools of new interpretation of vedanta are not happy with the previous philosophers' teachings so they make up their own philosphy and attract likeminded people to their movement. This doesn't make it right or any 'truer' than other schools. But really what was the original interpretation of the upanishads? was it advaitic or dvatic or vishistadvaitic?

 

It get's silly with all these schools claiming to teach the truth, at the same time saying all are true when at least some must be incorrect.

[Guest guest]

"which philosophy was the first? "

 

read directly bhagavad gita... the text even without comments

 

krsna says "surrender to me..." not "merge in me..."

 

so united in love and separated to get more union in love

 

practice religion, not only philosophize... chant mahamantra hare krsna, vishnu sahastranama stotram, rama charitatmanas or whatever authorized sanscrit mantra or prayer to god...

 

in this way you will be helped in your understanding...

 

read also and chant bhagavad gita

[Guest guest]

 

 

Yes, we are not supreme when we identify ourselves with the body, senses and mind. But, same is not the case, when we idenitify with Atman.

 

Think of the deep sleep state that you experience. Is there any God separate from you or bigger than you? It is a completely blissful state. That is the state where the "I" is not malinged by attachment to body, senses and mind. There is not want in that state. Not even the wantness of God. That is the state that we have to reach while awake. That is Advaita. We all experience it while in deep sleep. No dualities. ONLY ONE AND IT IS ALL.

 

Tell me where is duality in that state. If you don't accept this, then you have to do something to seek God during that state also. Otherwise you are wasting time while in the deep sleep. As a true follower of Vishistadvaita you have to stop sleeping. Because atleast approximately 4 hours of your time (excluding the dreaming state), you are spending with no feeling of wanting God. Think.... Think..... Think......

 

Moksha cannot be attained by following a set of rules provided by some one. Every individual has to think in unbiased manner with sharp intellect.

 

Advaita cannot be attained by knowledge. It has to be experienced. That requries lot of unlearning.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, we are not supreme when we identify ourselves with the body, senses and mind. But, same is not the case, when we idenitify with Atman.

 

---there's no when or where... god never forgets to be god.. a supreme is never subdued or defeated. So the supreme lord never gets defeated by maya.

So if i get illuded by maya to identify myself in the body i am in ignorance. But the supreme lord is CIT.. conscious..and he's SAT.. eternal. So every his feature is eternal, included the consciousness, so there's no possibility that i was supreme and now i have forgotten ... no possibility

 

Moksha cannot be attained by following a set of rules provided by some one.

--i agree.. use the logic and see if there's an intelligent reason to believe that one can be the supreme lord and simultaneously being fallen under maya's supremecy

(who is a subordinated energy!!)

 

Advaita cannot be attained by knowledge

--in a forum knowledge is the only thing you can exchange.. if you believe that knowledge does not helps,or that knowledge is bad.. you have no reason to use this medium

 

It has to be experienced

--you cannot lose spiritual achievements,because spirit is eternal... so if you became merged with the whole, you cannot come back as individual to preach advaita moksa to me.

So who experience s he cannot tell.. who tell is a cheater... so there's no demonstration and there never will be any honest person who'll can say "i have attained advaita moksa" without cheating people and himself

 

sorry

[Guest guest]

May be you will need to go thro' more cycles of birth and death to appreciate Advaita, let alone experiencing it.

 

It is worth going thro'. My sincere wishes.

[Guest guest]

i am happy that my previous births and deaths, and of course the lord's mercy,have brought me to be not attracted by blind believing

 

spirituality is light.. not darkness

[Guest guest]

I never said that God is facing identity crisis. I didn't claim that I have attained Advaita Moksha. Apprecaiting is one thing, experiencing is the another thing. Every guy, who appreciates Advaita is not the experiencer of it. If you make such wierd interpretations, I am not responsible.

 

Let me shoot the same questions to you. Let us consider God and individual souls as separate. Being part of God, individual soul should have come from God. How can the one which came from God, have a different characteristics?

[Guest guest]

variety

 

god can create variety

 

god can manifest personalities that are exactly him, like the avataras, and forms who are infinitesimal in comparison with him,like ourselves...god is omnipotent and he decides freely how much "godness" manifest in his expansions

 

i cannot really know why, because god is not captured by my mind, but i simply see that i am not supreme because i have supremacy on nothing. So if i am not supreme today, i know that i were not supreme yesterday because if i were not supreme i did'nt lose my supremacy

 

you cannot be defeated in a battle and simultaneously think that you're the winner.. if i were defeated by maya, i am not the master of maya, so i am not the lord

[Guest guest]

 

 

That means, there is no end to the cycle of births and deaths.

 

Since I cannot change from yesterday to today and will not change from today to tomorrow, there can be no end at all.

 

Then why should I take any effort at all in the name of spirituality? Of what use are my efforts?

 

[Guest guest]

the end of the births and deaths cycle is done calling for help the one who is the master of the karma law.. sri bhagavan

 

so it is true that we cannot change, but it is also true that god is omnipotent,he can see our desire to go to him,and he can save us

 

your efforts are to be directed in asking to god to save yourself.. if you are really desperate, if you feel that the only way of liberation is through discovering your eternal loving relationship with bhagavan (=yoga), bhagavan is omnipotent, karma is under his power, maya is under his supremacy and he will easily save yourself..

 

but if you think that you are the supreme lord or that you can became the supreme with some undemonstrated philosophical way of thinking it is clear that your desire to be saved is zero.

 

god respects your freedom, love means that i have to give freedom to my lover.... "you want still to be god?..ok...i remain hidden so you can imagine it at your pleasure"

 

and we enjoy that idea but karma wheel go on running and pain and death arrive.. before or after

[Guest guest]

 

 

Ok. Tell me the final state I reach thro' God's grace. Does seeking and wanting subside in that state or does it continue?

[Guest guest]

god is eternal, endless source of consciousness and bliss/love

(sat,cit,ananda)

 

so it is a "dynamic end"

 

the relationship with god is the last goal because there's nothing beyond.. but it is also the starting of infinite other experiences because god is endless

 

so eternal expansion and developement but simultaneoulsy stopping and resting in the loving arms of the lord

 

stand and move simultaneously

 

both have to be inside the absolute, nothing is outside

[Guest guest]

advaitha the culmination of the pursuit is true only from the standpoint of the pure conciousness bereft of any modification(nirvikaratvat), but the knower,known duality exists from the standpoint of the intellect which infers a cosmic intellect(so prooves vishistadvaitha), the dwaitha on the other hand is from the standpoint of the body,this will convince any one who has made a thorough analysis of self and non-self for others it is a music before deaf(charvakas)

[Guest guest]

have you proofs or logical demonstrations of your claims?

[Guest guest]

who is seeking moksha brahman or individual, if it is brahman the moksha is already attained, if it is individual the moksha is unattainable because he is ever bound.if we accept that moksha is something to be attained in time then what is proof that it will stay for ever, don't u feel this is an immitation chritian concept of heaven, so be clear in advaitha ,according to which moksha is not attainment but removal of notions of non-attainment.

[Guest guest]

 

 

My question is:

 

Does seeking and wanting subside at the ultimate state?

 

My point is, there are 3 things:

 

Seeker, Sought and the act of seeking. How can the act of seeking come to end when Seeker and Sought are still there?

 

If the seeker continues to feel that he is individual, how can he ever stop seeking?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

This is a good point. Worth pondering upon.

[Guest guest]

 

 

I am still at the same point where I started:

 

What is Moksha according to Vishistadvaita? What happens to the individual soul? As long as seeker (individual) and sought (God) exist, can the act of seeking every cease?

[Guest guest]

Seeker, Sought and the act of seeking. How can the act of seeking come to end when Seeker and Sought are still there?

If the seeker continues to feel that he is individual, how can he ever stop seeking?

--my answer is... the goal is not stopping to seek or to act... the goal is bliss. If you are searching for stopping you will be deluded, because all universe is dynamic, material universe, and spiritual environment

 

dynamism is the ontologic quality of joy, happiness, bliss

 

one of the differences between relative and absolute is that activity in the absolute has no pain, even an atom..

[Guest guest]

*******two pleasures are preferable to one pleasure******

 

Then thousand pleasures is also much better than just two pleasures.