misconceptions about hinduism, buddhism, jainism...

[Guest guest]

Hi Neal,

 

We both know that the 5 th canto is talking about "our " moon and sun. Also very clearly stated in the purports written by the Iskconfouder.

 

By the way..the "it's beyond our perception/senses/brain " trick is known as the oldest trick to convince people that the scriptures are always right, even when they are clearly wrong on certain subjects.

 

Men can create books. Books can't create men.

 

Tnx for replying though.

 

Greetings, Tony

[Guest guest]

Just wondering.

 

I don't take the Vedic referrals to snakes and turtles to be literal at all, but merely symbolic. For instance, Ananta is a snake that Vishnu lies on. It's also referred to as the Earth lying on its head or something like that, but that's not LITERALLY true. What it does mean is that Earth, and the cosmos in general is in the space-time continuum.

 

Or at least, that's one interpretation I had read somewhere. Which seems to make sense to me.

 

I really don't think that the vedic rishis or any yogi actually sees the world as we do. Nor do they interpret things the same way we do. They see symbolic imagery, which is inherently a personal lens through which they observe the truths, whether they interpret it correctly is another story altogether.

[Bhaktaneal]

I have yet to read 5th canto....lol

 

so I was purely speculating... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

hey, your welcome anyways though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bhaktaneal]

I am still apt to believe the Srimad Bhagavatam as literal, simply because I trust Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Hi there everybody

Namasthe

I really agree with P-V that we are the best,

but I feel that we should include people from all religions who are good.

Namasthe,

Sukrutha

[Guest guest]

Hello Tony,

 

 

 

I personally appreciate your contribution to this thread. Whether palatable or not, you have pointed out very fundamental aspects. However, you go astray.

 

 

The synthesis of Vedas is in Vedanta, which proclaim uniformly that consciousness is the beginning and end of all.

 

 

Soma (which later came to be called as or equated to moon) is the primordial inspiration in consciousness which gives rise to illumination and universe and the Sun. And Vedas speak of thousands of Universes. In that sense Soma is the father of Adityas (the solar Gods who are termed as the rulers of the universe) in Vedas. Some equate Puranas (that too with their limited understanding of Puranas) with the Vedas -- and that is unfortunate. When the influence or orb of Moon is spoken it is the influence of Soma that is being meant.

 

All Devas mentioned in Rig Veda are various forms of one unlimited consciousness – each limited with specific attributes that manifest synchronous to appearance of the Universes.

 

 

The Vedanta part clarifies that the dazzle of the Sun hides the truth that the cool inspiration -- Soma, which has root in consciousness, is Sun’s creator. Yogic methods slowly unravel this.

 

 

 

As for discoveries – we know that every discrete particle is connected and it is really one wave of consciousness – that is living, omnipotent, omniscient and it is our Lord -- the Ishwara.

 

 

You have come to know that plants are living. But, if you are lucky, you will come to know that a rock, which is apparently inert, also has consciousness -- albeit very dull. The five great natural elements – ether, air, water, fire, and earth also have consciousness. When we talk about Vayu Deva, we are talking about the consciousness that has become air. We live within consciousness and we are consciousness alone. This whole thing is one throbbing consciousness -- the Brahman. Science is still far from knowing it rationally.

 

 

Vedas are not concerned with material discoveries, which you hold highly. The objects do not lead one towards happiness since there is no end to craving. And Vedas are concerned about showing the ultimate path towards ultimate happiness. I know what I am saying. Were Kant, Spinoza, Schopenhauer interested in the material discoveries? Vedas proclaim the primordial truth which mind cannot grasp.

 

 

This you cannot refute since all the above mentioned philosophers and as well as modern day physicists from Einstein to Fritzoff Capra hold the Vedic and particularly Vedantic truths in high esteem. The discoverer of uncertainty principle echoed Vedanta by saying that consciousness is one. This you may confirm yourself.

 

There are blind followers who proclaim Vedas as great without knowing why. But it is not blind faith to say that Vedas contain truth that mind cannot grasp and unravel -- science will never equal it.

 

 

You could have have asked Niels Bohr or Hiesenberg about it.

 

From your posts, I can make out that you are well read and not dogmatic, so you can confirm my statements yourself. I would like to interact with you from time to time, if you are interested.

 

[Guest guest]

Jigyasu said : [... "Vedas are not concerned with material discoveries"..]

 

Hi. I agree with you on this and that's also what Tony stated. I followed the discussion. It never centered around the question of filosofical or ethical value but around the claim whether Vaidic scriptures contain higly scientifical knowledge comparable with modern science or not. This answer is no. Their value is not on the scientifical level. We agree on this. Let us keep science and religion\filosophy apart.

 

Jigyasu :[..".Soma (which later came to be called as or equated to moon) is the primordial inspiration in consciousness which gives rise to illumination and universe and the Sun.."]

 

Like I suggested, for a good discussion we should keep science and filosophy separate. If you mention the moon, then to me and to science, the moon is what it is. A rocky planet close to earth which recieves it's light from the sun. Seeing it differently, symbollically or metaphorecally won't change a thing.

 

Dear Jigyasu, It might sound a bit rude but we should not mixe things up. We can talk about science but then science it is. We can talk about filosophy but then filosophy it is.

 

I'm not a vedantist or other astika but filosophically speaken I can appreciate ( a few )parts of vedantism. Advaita/non dualism. Your familair with it although you also use Isvara instead of Brahman. Vaishnava influence maybe?

 

But ....appreciating some parts of a filosophy or religion is not the the same as agreeing with whole of the filosophy. Great scientist like Einstein ( an atheist ) and others have sometimes found comfort in poetry and filosophy,western and eastern , without claiming that some of them scriptures were reponsible for their discoveries. People ( christian, hindu, jews etc ) like to quote him but if you really want to know what Einstein has to say about God, religion and nature you should look for good sources ( try Albert Einstein The Life and Times ,The World Publishing Company, New York and Cleveland, 1971 )

 

You will find out that Einstein was not a not a Jew, catholic , vedantist or buddhist. He was totally undogmatic and a atheist. Some of his anthropomorpic ideas about nature and universal force are also to be found in the upanishads. Einstein did not said that his filosophical ideas came from the upanishads. He had them before , but he recognised a few of his ideas in it and also in other european filosophies. At the end he was a totally undogmatic atheist and merely a follower of his own ideas.

 

Anyway, this post is getting to long right now so I will stop here.

 

Regards, M.

[Guest guest]

Good to have some one undogmatic to discuss with. Though our discussions will not change the unchangeable.

 

 

**********Jigyasu said : [... "Vedas are not concerned with material discoveries"..]

 

Hi. I agree with you on this and that's also what Tony stated. I followed the discussion. It never centered around the question of filosofical or ethical value but around the claim whether Vaidic scriptures contain higly scientifical knowledge comparable with modern science or not. This answer is no. Their value is not on the scientifical level. We agree on this. Let us keep science and religion\filosophy apart.************

 

 

 

I said: Vedas are not concerned with material discoveries. I did not say that material discoveries alone constitute science. I will add Vedas are concerned about the truth, which science is also concerned about. Science is not mere material applications. Highest scientists do not work for material goals. I hold that they are the real karma yogis.

 

Science does not have the knowledge of the truth comparable to Vedas/Upanishads. That is what quantum scientists say. Oppenheimer, Schrodinger, et. Al. And this is not dogmatic.

 

This stems from uncertainty principle. When you study an object (even when with thought) you impart energy to the object of investigation and that alters the position and momentum so that scientific enquiry with mind and its instruments have a final limitation.

 

Of what value are the material discoveries if day by day the world is getting dirtier and dirtier?

 

 

The distinction between science and philosophy is in your mind. A superior illuminated mind will see less difference and some will see no difference at all.

 

 

 

************ Dear Jigyasu, It might sound a bit rude but we should not mixe things up. We can talk about science but then science it is. We can talk about filosophy but then filosophy it is. *******************

 

 

 

No rudeness at all. You are nice and civil. You are pleasant but I repeat: The distinction between science and philosophy is in your mind and in the definition you use. Definitions are our creations. A superior illuminated mind will see less difference and some will see no difference at all. Mind is the obstruction for unraveling the ultimate truth. Vedas and Upanishads and many parts of the Bible are mindless knowledge.

 

When we interpret in “flesh and blood terms” then there is confusion. It is all play of energy of the one undivided consciousness. But with mind and senses such cannot be known. It is not dogmatic.

 

 

**********I'm not a vedantist or other astika but filosophically speaken I can appreciate ( a few )parts of vedantism. Advaita/non dualism. Your familair with it although you also use Isvara instead of Brahman. Vaishnava influence maybe?********************

 

 

Iswara and consciousness are in undivided consciousness which is Brahman. Some like to personify Brahman and some like IT as it is, depending on the level of experience. What is in one’s consciousness is true. Ishwara, as controller, is true as long as “you” know yourself as a body of flesh and blood or as an ego claiming "I am this". When you are able to see yourself as "I-I", the controller will not be there. Otherwise you do not control anything -- from birth to death.

 

 

 

*********But ....appreciating some parts of a filosophy or religion is not the the same as agreeing with whole of the filosophy. Great scientist like Einstein ( an atheist ) and others have sometimes found comfort in poetry and filosophy,western and eastern , without claiming that some of them scriptures were reponsible for their discoveries. People ( christian, hindu, jews etc ) like to quote him but if you really want to know what Einstein has to say about God, religion and nature you should look for good sources ( try Albert Einstein The Life and Times ,The World Publishing Company, New York and Cleveland, 1971 )

 

You will find out that Einstein was not a not a Jew, catholic , vedantist or buddhist. He was totally undogmatic and a atheist. Some of his anthropomorpic ideas about nature and universal force are also to be found in the upanishads. Einstein did not said that his filosophical ideas came from the upanishads. He had them before , but he recognised a few of his ideas in it and also in other european filosophies. At the end he was a totally undogmatic atheist and merely a follower of his own ideas.*****************

 

 

I agree that Einstein was not dogmatic.

 

 

 

Regards, Jigyasu.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, it sure is nice to discuss things but I think we are discussing too many subjects at the same time haha.

 

Surely we were going off-topic without noticing! Einstein, science, brahman/ishvara, nondualism, the difference between science/philosophy. Wow.. too much.

 

Jigyasu : [..Of what value are the material discoveries if day by day the world is getting dirtier and dirtier?..]

 

Well...can't blame you for thinking this. But does it really ? Guess the world is as dirty and beautifull as ever.

Negative ingredients like crime, rape, murder, war etc were omni-present in medieval and ancient times and they still are. Same as with positive ingredients like friendship, art, love, music etc. Shape and scale varies from time to time but in essence all these things stay the same. If you look at the big picture, you will see that it is basically the same world. Do you still think the world is getting dirtier ?

 

[..The distinction between science and philosophy is in your mind. A superior illuminated mind will see less difference and some will see no difference at all...]

 

Philosophy and modern science have some things incommon since both can start with assumptions and speculations. A big difference is that although philosophy requires some logic it does not require ACTUAL PROOF and science does! That's where they become different .

 

Advaita-vedanta discussions can go on forever I am afraid. Besides, I do not agree with it.

 

Anyway, I am costumed to stop discussions when we more or less agree or have found some sort or balance of disagreement.

 

So , thnx and we will meet again in another thread.

[Guest guest]

Om Namah Sivayya and Jigyasu are same. Though those who do not know it will assume that Om Namah Sivayya and Jigyasu are 2 different individuals. Mind can play tricks on the owner of the mind. Vedas provide the knowledge at appropriate time.

 

 

************ Negative ingredients like crime, rape, murder, war etc were omni-present in medieval and ancient times and they still are. Same as with positive ingredients like friendship, art, love, music etc. Shape and scale varies from time to time but in essence all these things stay the same. If you look at the big picture, you will see that it is basically the same world. Do you still think the world is getting dirtier ?**********************

 

 

You are correct and wrong. At the level of Brahman nothing whatsoever gets dirty. But at the level of mental existence, entropy is increasing day by day and soon the deluge (again of mind) will destroy instability and ensure freshness. Siva transforms everything at appropriate time.

 

 

 

**********Philosophy and modern science have some things in common since both can start with assumptions and speculations. A big difference is that although philosophy requires some logic it does not require ACTUAL PROOF and science does! That's where they become different . ****************

 

 

Again correct and wrong. Science has stated Uncertainty principle – you should be aware of this. The ultimate is unknowable by mind. Proofs are of mind.

 

 

*********Advaita-vedanta discussions can go on forever I am afraid. Besides, I do not agree with it. ********

 

Advaita Vedanta is a mere name. The truth is unlimited conscious intelligence -- the subject of Vedas and Upanishads. You are correct that this is not an object of discussion and debate. And I state that this is subject of experience. Words return from HIM. Senses do not reach HIM.

 

 

 

**************Anyway, I am costumed to stop discussions *********************

 

 

I do not understand what you mean by “I am costumed to --------“.

 

 

********So , thnx and we will meet again in another thread.*********

 

 

Welcome. What is bad about this thread?

 

 

Regards

 

[Guest guest]

please make sure that you are not contradicting with your statments mentioned before on this thread or other threads with reference to vedas.

 

as God himself said: in the Chandogya Upanishad, Ch.No. 6, Section No. 2, Verse No.1. ‘God is one only… ‘Akam Avidetuim’… not a second’ That means - There is only God, He doesn’t have any partner, He is alone.

 

then today why we are practicing idealism?

[Guest guest]

Hello ONS/J

 

[..I do not understand what you mean by “I am costumed to --------“.]

 

This is not the only forum where I am at ( yes, I like to talk, too bad English is not my native language /images/graemlins/smirk.gif )Anyway, on most forums the rule is that the moderater will end a discussion when things are going off topic. If someone wants to discuss another thing, he is usually advised to start a new thread. I agree with this because otherwise people jump from one thing to another, a little bit like we did. Picture this : we agree on the thing that vedas are not concerned with material discoveries, despite some people are saying. That is were we more or less agree and that is what this thread initially was all about.

 

APART from that you stated that the vedanta part ( upanishads ) are discussing other things, philosophical things. Well..we agree on this also, don't we ?

 

 

[..Advaita Vedanta is a mere name. The truth is unlimited conscious intelligence -- the subject of Vedas and Upanishads. You are correct that this is not an object of discussion and debate. And I state that this is subject of experience.....]

 

That's what I meant. Who is wrong or right is- in this case not the issue- and cannot be proven. Wether there is some thing as a atma/jiva/brahman or Isvara is a hypothesis and a point where we disagree. But..even if we should agree it still cannot be discussed. It would be endless. Even vedantists and monists who agree on some points can go on discussing forever and still disagree !!

 

To give you some examples: Gaudapada and Shankar both agree that this world is a illusion but they strongly disagree to what degree this world is a illusion ! To gaudapada everything is illusion. Even the attempt to 'search' for moksha is an illusion. The whole world is less than a dream. Even the illusion itself is an illusion. To Shankar this world is real but only real in a different sense. Comparable to a rope wich looks like a snake. Although the snake ( materie/maya/diversity etc.) is not real, the rope( brahman )is. The moment you (truly )realize this you are liberated. The former sounds nice but wait !!! According to Madhva you still are not liberated yet ! You've now realized that atman and brahman are the same but you have forgotten something because Ishvara and Jivatma are the same but not totally. Now atma and brahman are united ( although they were never actually seperated to begin with /images/graemlins/wink.gif) it is time to discuss a secret wich can only be understood when you have reaced a very very illuminate postition. Ishvara and jivatma are one BUT on the Ultimate level they are seperated again . And according to other "liberated" souls there is more and even moksha and "unity" itself was merely just a trick. But to see this "final "trick you first have to be liberated and just then the " real thing " comes....a thing you should never ever expected.....etc etc etc

 

Well..hope you still follow. But..I guess you understand what I mean. Some discussions will never end.

 

let 's not forget that accepting a thing as Atma / Brahman is just hypothetical. But it is your mind though, it is your hypothesis, you have accepted that theory so it is your experience and I am sure that in a way it feels real in the mind. It should be though because every idea wich is accepted in the mind will eventually feel real if one strongly believes in it. Although ( to my opinion )the theory of brahman, vedanta etc etc is more advanced and more mature than let us say a antropormorphic Bhagvaan/ Allah etc it is in essence still the same...a hyphotesis, wich you accept or not.

 

Let 's look at the bright side. There are also many subjects on this forum wich can be discussed and were persons can agree to a certain point. History, science, politics, the question whether a thing is actually mentioned in scripture ( without discussing the religous or philosophical trueness of the doctrine or ethics , that's a personal thing offcourse ). These are things that can be discussed far more easily and more or less objectivelly. And that is where I surely hope to meet you again since you are a nice partner to discuss with.

 

Greetings M

[Guest guest]

******* ( yes, I like to talk, too bad English is not my native language )**************

 

 

Your English is good. I would like to know your name and background.

 

 

 

 

We agree on many points but where we apparently differ is on interpretations, which always reflect experience of the interpreter. Silence is the purest language.

 

 

 

**********To give you some examples: Gaudapada and Shankar both agree that this world is a illusion but they strongly disagree to what degree this world is a illusion ! ********************

 

 

Shankara asked his disciples to write interpretations. Brahman creates Universe to know the Self. Shiva realizes himself through Visnu.

 

 

 

 

*********Well..hope you still follow. But..I guess you understand what I mean. Some discussions will never end.*******************

 

********* It should be though because every idea wich is accepted in the mind will eventually feel real if one strongly believes in it.***********

 

 

 

Yes, I agree but I will replace “mind” by consciousness.

 

 

 

************Although ( to my opinion )the theory of brahman, vedanta etc etc …………....a hyphotesis, wich you accept or not. *********************

 

 

 

Here I disagree. Truth of one consciousness or the purusha signifying the consciousness (same thing) is Shruti and not hypothesis. Of course, this is spiritualist’s view; materialist will not agree. But truth and materialism are far separated. I repeat Science has given us the uncertainty principle.

 

 

Gotama bringing in a river, calling to help Maruts (mind forces) could never be hypothesis. In fact to a rationalist it could be gibberish.

 

 

 

 

*******Let 's look at the bright side. There are also many subjects on this forum wich can be discussed and were persons can agree to a certain point. History, science, politics, the question whether a thing is actually mentioned in scripture ( without discussing the religous or philosophical trueness of the doctrine or ethics , that's a personal thing offcourse ). These are things that can be discussed far more easily and more or less objectivelly. And that is where I surely hope to meet you again since you are a nice partner to discuss with.****************

 

 

 

I agree mostly. But I remind you that Brahma Jigyasa is auspicious. Objectivity is no more an agenda with me. Brahma Jigyasa is. Objectivity does not answer but throws up thousand questions for one answer and creates more illusions.

 

 

 

Regards

[Guest guest]

Haha..I almost made some comments about some things you said about but we 've agreed we should stop debating this.

 

I usually don't get personal on a forum and don't talk much about my background but it should be clear though that I must have had some interest in vedantism in the past. Would be very difficult to talk about it otherwise, would'nt it ?

 

Anyway, I am planning to start a new thread one of these months. It will be much more down to earth and I don't know whether this will have your interest but we will see.

 

For now, best wishes Mike

 

[Guest guest]

My best wishes to you too.

[Guest guest]

The question you have asked is absolutely thinkable. do you know what gita says. there is nothing but me and everything is me. whom ever you pray is me whomever you hate is me. you are no one but me. realize who you really are to know who really i am. when you read this you will know everyone is same. there is no better explanation of gita. its not a book of facts true but it is the truth.

[Guest guest]

" its not a book of facts true but it is the truth"

 

how can it be possible?

 

why are you concocting your interpretation? gita is all truth, the facts are truth, the characters are truth, the times are truth and so on

 

 

[Guest guest]

Silence leads the way...otherwise it would be like the blind leading the blind. We are blind because ignorance exists in all of us...there is beyond...but why worry about it when we cannot understand simpler things...like the distances in our minds and hearts. The thoughts we ignite at every turn of the seconds uncontrolled and unknown....mail me at faubina@gmail.com if you have comments

[Guest guest]

how can buddhism / jainism be offshoots of hinduism? my understanding was that gita was compiled 1500BC (whether or not it actually occurred 3500years prior to that), and buddah lived 600BC? the vedas themselves are older then that.howsoever, buddhist philosophy of the dhammapadda is the 'everyday mans' understanding of the vedas. so what is your argument? and how can you prove to us that jainism and buddhism are anscestors of hinduism? and do we really care though? the buddhist will receive nirvana as a hindu receives brahman. a christian will receive the holy spirit the same as the hindu or buddhist receives 'the self'. what does it matter? might i suggest you read the works of vivekenanda as an unbiased and informative source on all the major religions.

[Guest guest]

hey there smart guy, perhaps you should consider reading into a BRIEF amount of the following:

 

* india is the largest english speaking nation on the planet

* 2nd largest pool of scientists and engineers on the planet

* world class leaders in IT, biotechnology and astronomy

* worlds 4th largest economy

* top 5 companies in the world have mostly indian employees

* we've founded wireless commounication radio, won nobel prizes for music, physics, scattering of light, raman effect, einstein - bose thoerem, look into the achievements of chandrashekar, ramanujam, khorana, sen, ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA

* india was the richest country in the world until the 17th century

* sanskrit language is the mother of all languages, and the most ideal language as considered by the forbes magazine for computer programming

* aryabhatta explained the shape, size, diameter, rotational speed of the earth

* the art of navgatih, navigation was born in india, 6000BC

* india discovered science of gravity 400 years before newton

* india housed the first university in the world, takshila

* veda texts contain the SCIENCE of medicine, liturgy, war (including origins of martial arts), music, phonetics, legal matters, astrology, astronomy, faith, mathematics, meditation, sex, karma, work, reincarnation, creation of the universe, man, and evolution

* madhavacharya discovered sine, cosine, newtown power series, inverse tangent, leibnitz power series for pi, BEFORE european counterparts

* indians discovered time taken for earth to orbit the sun, to the 9th power

* we not only discovered concept of ZERO, but also INFINITY

* surya siddhanta shows the earths diameter as 7840

* surya siddhanta shows the distance between the earth and moon as 253000

* texts contain detailed info on anatomy, physiology, metabolism, genetics, embryology, digestion, aeitiology

* rig veda, 1.50 says the sun traverses 2200 yojanas in half a nimesha, REFERRING TO THE SPEED OF LIGHT

* our books contain a wealth of information, interplanetary travel, test tube babies, velocity of light, blackholes, divisible and indivisible atoms, infra red and ultra violet light bands, analysis of body parts, cell division (3 stages), microorganisms, life in trees and plants, 16 functions of the brain eiterya, chromosomes, definition of sleep, elongation of life due to space travel, ET CETERA ET CETERA ET CETERA

 

 

"when i read up on the bhagavad gita and reflect upon how God created this universe, everything else seems so superfluous" - ALBERT EINSTEIN

 

"we owe a lot to the indians who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made" - ALBERT EINSTEIN

 

"when india was explored and the wonderful riches of Indian theological literature found, that dispelled once and for all, the dream about Christianity being the sole revelation" - emerson

 

"in the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the upanishads" - schopenhaur

 

"it does not behove us, who were only savages and barbarians when these indian and chinese peoples were civilised and learned, to dispute their antiquity" - voltaire

 

"A fool (ref: Christians) lies here, who tried to hustle the east" - kipling

 

"it seems as if the indian mind was better prepared for the chonological mutations of darwinian evolution and astrophysics" - guy sorman

 

"the motion of the stars calculated by the hindus some 4500 years ago vary not even a single minute from the tables of casine and meyer" - jean sylvain bailly

 

read the comments by will durant, theoreau, mark twain, ken wilbur, aldous huxley, adam smith, HG Wells, john archibald wheeler, DR DAVID FRAWLEY, MAX MUELLER, AND REFERENCES IN ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA

 

do you want to compare a minute portion of what can be considered scientific in the Bible to some of what is listed here? but hang on, the Bible refutes the world is older then a few thousand years right? wups!

 

now if you want hard facts, look into the research of thompson, mysteries of the sacred universe, or shut your mouth.

[Guest guest]

excellent explanation and qutes were given they are awesome. common knowledge any relegion generally explains about god so does chrisitanity. well i personally didnt meet jesus so i am not sure if he exsted but true his teachings were awesome. but u have to realize hinduism has the 10 commandments even before judaisim came into existing. hinduisim the ultimate explanation of life.