Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 And if you are a realist dealing with the happenings of the life like money, food, etc and not consider anything beyond, how come you agree that God exists? Where is God seen in "real" life? Are you not contridicting yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 If God himself planned for a killer and a rapist to do heinous acts then why the karma to individuals? As far as I know God has no karma. Or has he? for planning such things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 ***********a true spiritual realization is permanent.. one never come back.. or he's still not pure,not realized. so... if you lose your individuality merging in brahman you cannot do it without phisically die and you do not come back to say it to us*************************** Those who have the grace to attain Turiyatta state don't die; they become Immortal Aittreya III-i-4: Through this Self that is Consciousness, he ascended higher up from this world, and getting all desires fulfilled in that heavenly world, he became immortal, he became immortal. First have some experience. Do not debate with your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 *************a true spiritual realization is permanent.. one never come back.. or he's still not pure,not realized. so... if you lose your individuality merging in brahman you cannot do it without phisically die and you do not come back to say it to us so everyone who has experienced advaita and comes to us to explain he's a cheater************************ You seem to know better than upanishadic sages Atma Upanishad II-19-20. By fate is the body borne into contexts of experiences at appropriate times. (On the contrary) he who, giving up all migrations, both knowledge and unknowable, stays as the pure unqualified Self, is himself the manifest Shiva. He is the best of all Brahman-Knowers. In life itself the foremost Brahman-Knower is the ever free, he has accomplished his End. II-21. All adjuncts having perished, being Brahman he is assimilated to the non-dual Brahman, like a man who, with (appropriate) apparels, is an actor and without them (resumes his natural state), II-22(a). In the same way the best of Brahman-Knowers is always Brahman alone and none else. II-22(b)-23. Just as space becomes space itself when the (enclosing) pot perishes, so, when particular cognitions are dissolved, the Brahman-Knower himself becomes nothing but Brahman, as milk poured into milk, oil into oil, and water into water become (milk, oil and water). II-24(a). Just as, combined, they become one, so does the Atman-knowing sage in the Atman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Ok. We have to deal with food, money, injustice, etc and a whole lot of things that happen between birth and death. If that is the purpose of life, why do we require God at all? –––that's not the purpose of life... simply i was saying that i consider not loyal and hypochrit to preach something that i do not follow in practical life. So for me there's no utility to consider the possibility that we don't exist Do all the people who don't have money, food, etc get them once they pray? Are all their problems solved by that? --material world is here to give problems, not to solve them.... but if i know that only the Supreme Lord is the one who gives the solutions i am very advanced (of course i am not advanced..) Can there be any end to the list of prayers that we have to make to deal with the life? --the end is to pray to have the most valuable thing.... the love for god. That's absolutely all satisfying.. no more material desires , every desire satisfacted Why should I fantacise that there is some God bigger than me and pray to him endlessly for the daily problems that are never going to end? --you have to examine.. not fantasize. Fantasy/blind faith is useless, we are here in this forum because we agree on the utility of studying some spiritual culture to save ourselves from the pain of material life Even if I agree that God exists, I can say to myself that he has been partial in creating me as a poor and some one else as rich. How can such a person help me --it is worth considering that vedas.. the greatest world's religious culture .. say that we are here suffering because we have misused our independence coming here desiring to forget god... and that god is eternally ready to save us,even if we are rebels, if we simply are sincere in calling him at our help It is not that only the people who commit suicide, die. Every one dies. Death is worth considering, to atleast help us in understanding the purpose of life. --so where's the need to ipotize that we live a dream and not a real existence? let us speak of death as a reality... hard and painful reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 No, there are sages who lose body-mind sense while living. Shruti is there to prove it and sages are there to prove it. And they also come back and speak about a fourth indescribable state of oneness beyond that of waking, dreaming and sleeping. This is called Turiyatta. If this is cheating then whole of Upanishad is cheating. --upanishad is not cheating. vedas and connected scriptures are to be read all together. When one is materialist lord sri bhagavan comes as sri buddha to preach an atheistic religion to keep the materialist at least in peace and mind control. When one can make a step beyond the scriptures introduce the fact that everything is spirit to counteract the heavy materialism. When this is realized the scriptures make clear that individuality and variety, being in the illusory environment, they are surely also in the spirit. So advaita is uncomplete knowledge... partial knowledge. And surely dvaita too. God is everything, oneness and variety. Bhagavad gita is "raja vidya.." the king of all spiritual sciences, in bhagavad gita krsna says "think of me....", "surrender to me, i will free you"..he does not say "merge.." or "thinking of me you will be me..".. he's intelligent, he's able to preach real spirituality. maya is cheating,even through upanishads, the ones who want to be illuded that they're the supreme lord I ask, how do you know? Have you experienced Advaitic experience? --no one of us has experienced it.. so let us stop to speak of it... no problem How can you say that achyntya beda---- etc. is beyond Advaita? --because advaita not united with dvaita at the same level of consciousness (=acyntya beda abeda..) is a human concept. You see that in this world variety is pain and you argue from this that there's no variety in the absolute. That's human... but in the transcendence nothing is missing, because maya is subordinated to the lord and matter is subordinated to the spirit.. so the matter cannot have more features than the spirit. If we have material variety, we must have also spiritual variety.... and the vedas help us in speaking of spiritual world and lord's lilas who are true, exactly like the nirguna brahman is true... no conflict... same level... that's acynthya beda abeda tattva --- You are naïve or you are an agent to create problem. ••yes i am from CIA from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. and from KGB from 8 p.m. to 8 a.m................ Shruti says clearly that every one loves one’s own self more than anything. ••even here you demonstrate that love is dualistic.. to love yourself you have to discriminate between you that you love and the (your) self that you are loving. So there's no love in oneness... love, lover, loved.... 3 things not one.. Those who have the grace to attain Turiyatta state don't die; they become Immortal ••if you attain oneness you lose individuality.... and if you lose individual life, there's no soul to keep the life in your body.So who is merged cannot say it or he's a cheater. Life is eternal, individual life comes from god.. nothing coming from god has a birth or a death You seem to know better than upanishadic sages ••if you read carefully also bhagavad gita,puranas, itihasas free from the illusion to be the supreme lord you'll understand the upanishad and i will decide surely to take shelter in you as my spiritual teacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 ***********the scriptures make clear that individuality and variety, being in the illusory environment, they are surely also in the spirit.************************** Why do not you show the scripture? The variety is very apparent and even an immature with eyes discern the variety. For this you do not need scripture. But to experience the oneness, it is another matter. No doubt variety exists in Lord himself. It is not a point of argument. But one, who can perceive that the truth is the ONE that supports all the variety, can go beyond the karmas associated with maya of attachment to the so-called objects. And such a one gets established in this oneness without any further desire of objects troubling him. **********You see that in this world variety is pain and you argue from this that there's no variety in the absolute. That's human... but in the transcendence nothing is missing, *************** No. Variety is not pain. But sticking to variety as real brings on the pain. Variety is not pain since it is Maya and pain is also maya. Variety is just spandan in consciousness. Rig Veda 7.46.2 To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. He through his lordship thinks on beings of the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial sway. And Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born Note: You think that you are real. You are only a thought in Rudra. He thinks of beings of the Earth and the Heavens. And all that we see and think that I am seeing is movement of Aditi in Lord and Lord sees the movement. ****************You are naïve or you are an agent to create problem. ••yes i am from CIA from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. and from KGB from 8 p.m. to 8 a.m..*********** Yes. It is true. Though you think it is a joke. Because you say that Bush is Mahesvara. *********************Shruti says clearly that every one loves one’s own self more than anything. ••even here you demonstrate that love is dualistic.. to love yourself you have to discriminate between you that you love and the (your) self that you are loving. So there's no love in oneness... love, lover, loved.... 3 things not one..***************** If this is your idea of variety then I agree wholeheartedly. Yes same way we love Lord. Love, lover, and loved – all within me. I am surprised to see time and again, how you put your feet in your mouth. Like you said our soul becomes a policeman at office and a loving householder at home. Sincerely, I do not have any vain intention of proving one way or another. Since arguments do not prove anything. Neither argument can take one to Lord. But you calling sages cheaters and fools and rascals is in bad taste. No one is harmed but you. Desist from it. This I say as a well wisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Why do not you show the scripture? The variety is very apparent and even an immature with eyes discern the variety. ••scriptures are full of spiritual variety...read krsna lila in bhagavata purana, rama lila in ramayanaand so on... bhagavad gita is variety "(you) (1st subject) surrender (action by the 1st subject) to me (2nd subject) i will free you (action ny the snf subject)...". Two subjects and two actions... variety. Of course variety is very simple to see,even immatures see it. So it is not very mature to believe that the spirit missses it. Absolute is more than immature. But to experience the oneness, it is another matter. ••you are speaking with me.. so it is your belief. But we made experience of joy and love, so we can perhaps imagine a little how love can be in a satcitananda environment.And it is much more nice than advaita's coma. But one, who can perceive that the truth is the ONE that supports all the variety, can go beyond the karmas associated with maya of attachment to the so-called objects. ••if in the lord there's variety and oneness, they have to be at the same level of purity and realization. In god there's not something transcendental and something not. So Oneness supports variety and simultaneously variety supports oneness.. actually nothing is supported, the lord does not need support. So in spiritual variety, vaikunta, goloka.. there's no karma and maya. God is the ruler of karma, not the victim of it. His variety is transcendental, not conditionated Because you say that Bush is Mahesvara. ••you have to drink not too much wisky before discussing philosophy Yes same way we love Lord. Love, lover, and loved – all within me. ••decide...oneness or variety?. If you decide for both, they're both outside and inside.. god has no soul and body, surface and core, appearance and substance, superior and inferior. If in god there's transcendental oneness, there's also transcendental variety...alla transcendental, all unlimited I am surprised to see time and again, how you put your feet in your mouth. ••i am trembling of fear... i feel myself really defeated by your sarcasm and competence Like you said our soul becomes a policeman at office and a loving householder at home. ••again too much wisky (i remember the exact question, but you not) Sincerely, I do not have any vain intention of proving one way or another. Since arguments do not prove anything. ••so why discuss if you do not like it? this is a discussion forum... Neither argument can take one to Lord ••reflecting on spiritual truths can lead ourselves to find the right path and practice. If you put aside intelligence, sentiment will take her place... and senses are inferior to intelligence. So better choose our path and practice with intelligence.. illogic paths will lead us only to madness and death But you calling sages cheaters and fools and rascals is in bad taste. ••if your sages are cheating saying to people that they are the supreme lord and that they will regain that status following them they are not sages but ..... huge rascals. Innocent people have to be taught about surrendering to the lord, not to blaspheme him take care... use intelligence and logic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 **********••if your sages are cheating saying to people that they are the supreme lord and that they will regain that status following them they are not sages but ..... huge rascals.************************* True Gurus never claim. They are beyond claims. It is for the whole world to see who is what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 "True Gurus never claim. They are beyond claims. " the important thing is that we have call gurus the real ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atanu Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 **********••if your sages are cheating saying to people that they are the supreme lord and that they will regain that status following them they are not sages but ..... huge rascals.************************* It seems you are the sole genuine guru who has right to call others "huge rascals" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 it's not me who's judging.. it is what they say that qualifies them as rascals or saints.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atanu Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 *********it's not me who's judging.. it is what they say that qualifies them as rascals or saints..************ You don't have the capacity to judge. As I have said earlier, matter in this thread and others leave no doubt as to who is what. Om Namah Sivayaa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 No. It leaves no doubt as to who is what. Our guest is the greatest. He is the boss. He minces no words and exhibits courage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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