is homosexuality acceptable

[Guest guest]

i ask you what is a correct behaviour for a devotee?

--in this circumstance i simply said that if he has a correct behaviour in devotees' association.. no devote can reject or blaspheme him

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

There clearly a communication difficulty here

 

Here is the question again,

A true devotee sees everyone with equal vision, but i ask you what is a correct behaviour for a devotee? Is sex life never mind the homosex conducive to spritual life?

 

My point is not to ask how anyone should treat a homosex individual,(naturaly with compassion) but i am asking is it conducive or compatable to spritual progress.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

generally speaking the pure devotee , from the material point of view, is in the satva guna plane, and homosexuality is not satva guna, it is tamo guna..

 

but what there's to do if not sincerely chant hare krsna and associate with devotees and spiritual master?

 

maya is stronger than us.. only krsna can defeat our maya, not us..

[Guest guest]

generally speaking the pure devotee , from the material point of view, is in the satva guna plane, and homosexuality is not satva guna, it is tamo guna..

 

 

Dear guest. I have to correct you on this. You said PURE devotee is on sattva plane. No, not according to vaishnavism : the PURE devotee is NOT on any of the gunaplanes , neither sattva, neither tamo. The PURE devotee is on the transcendental plane. This is a very very important vaishnava doctrine.

 

maya is stronger than us.. only krsna can defeat our maya, not us..

 

 

 

yes ...according to vaishnavism , there is no difference between krishna and his name. If one chants, krishna is there allready, if one chants for 5 years , then krishna is allready associating with him FOR 5 YEARS!!! krisna is very very strong but still pure devotee is stronger cause krisna can not resist one who is chanting his name. Pure devotee has more power ( i mean PURE devotee ) than krishna. Offcourse this is very rare position. Most of people are not "pure "but even somebody who is not "pure " is chanting for 5 years , he should realize that every time he is chanting, Krishna is there with him. Krishna is not very far away. So Krishna is already bizzy with the guy. Krishna is there because his name is in mouth and mind of the guy. No matter chanter is gay. If krishna wants, krishna changes the guy. If krishna wants to associate with gaypeople he will do this. If gaypeople are chanting krishna s name then krishna is allready associating with them. This gay is in contact with Krishna, same as dancing with him, playing or eating. No diffrence between japa, eating prasadam, fighting.

 

It might be a offence to critisize this gay guy !!! Watch out. Maybe this guy is very close to Krishna. Krishna has choosen to appear and associate with him for allready 5 years!!! Krishna has not changed him although so he knows best!

[Guest guest]

Dear guest. I have to correct you on this. You said PURE devotee is on sattva plane.

--no prabhu... i said "from the material point of view.. (the pure devotee) is in satva guna"...

A materialist cannot see transcendence but only the material aspect of the behaviour.. so generally a pure devotee acts in a style resembling sattva guna (=cleanliness, chastity, peacefulness and so on) with the purpose of showing the correct behaviour to neophites..

Another liberated soul can recognize that such behaviour is transcendental while conditionated soul see the material aspect

 

But thanks for your objection that has given the opportunity to clarify the subject

 

--

 

krisna is very very strong but still pure devotee is stronger cause krisna can not resist one who is chanting his name

--wich is the way to become pure devotee and being stronger than krsna if not surrendering to krsna? so for first let us chant hare krsna having faith that chanting will bring us out of maya and back to godhead.. then, when we'll be in such consciousness, sri krsna bhagavan will maybe organize lilas when we will play showing some supremacy over him as he do with gopis, gopas, yasodamata, sudama and so on

 

..but now we are discussing about undoubtely more basic problems (=sex)

 

harekrishna!!

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

Re

(generally speaking the pure devotee , from the material point of view, is in the satva guna plane, and homosexuality is not satva guna, it is tamo guna.. )

 

And as stated in shastra satva guna takes you to higher plane and tamo guna drags you to lower region. Thank you for answering even if not directly, that sexuality is not conducive to satva guna let alone spiritual life.

 

Re

(but what there's to do if not sincerely chant hare krsna and associate with devotees and spiritual master?)

 

Yes this is nice, but do not think I will chant the names and at the same time continue with my nonsense, that will be a mistake, regulation is important, slowly with sincere effort the anarth will disappear,but do not seek to justify the Anarth.

 

Re

(maya is stronger than us.. only krsna can defeat our maya, not us.. )

 

Who ever said we are stronger then maya, our strong desires keeps us firmly rooted

in this material world but god help those who help them self.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(yes ...according to vaishnavism , there is no difference between krishna and his name. If one chants, krishna is there allready, if one chants for 5 years , then krishna is allready associating with him FOR 5 YEARS!!!)

 

So near yet so far, Krishna is never detached from us.We may chant but our desires are in different direction then although we may fool others but not him, he situated in our heart knows we want maya and he is very kind he fulfill our desires.

 

Re

("but even somebody who is not "pure " is chanting for 5 years , he should realize that every time he is chanting, Krishna is there with him. Krishna is not very far away. So Krishna is already bizzy with the guy. Krishna is there because his name is in mouth and mind of the guy. No matter chanter is gay. If krishna wants, krishna changes the guy. If krishna wants to associate with gaypeople he will do this. If gaypeople are chanting krishna s name then krishna is allready associating with them. This gay is in contact with Krishna, same as dancing with him, playing or eating. No diffrence between japa, eating prasadam, fighting.)

 

On what authority are you speaking all this nonsense, you are encouraging loose morals

thinking I will do all nonsense and simply chant and therefore I will dance with Krishna.

 

Re

(It might be a offence to critisize this gay guy !!! Watch out. Maybe this guy is very close to Krishna. Krishna has choosen to appear and associate with him for allready 5 years!!! Krishna has not changed him although so he knows best! )

 

go scare some one else about offences, I will take Krishnas advice although I am not free from maya but will not seek to justify my shortcomings. He says in bg.16

tri-vidham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanam atmanah

kamah krodhas tatha lobhas

tasmad etat trayam tyajet

TRANSLATION

There are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

"Yes this is nice, but do not think I will chant the names and at the same time continue with my nonsense, that will be a mistake, regulation is important, slowly with sincere effort the anarth will disappear,but do not seek to justify the Anarth."

 

you are perfectly right.... obviously the "sincere effort" is made for krsna's grace.. actually it is krsna who's making the anarthas disappear

 

 

"..god help those who help them self...."

 

yes.. but devotees think that they are surrendering to krsna and krsna is acting not acting by themselves

 

(difference is subtle, not externally evident but essential)

[Guest guest]

PAMHO

 

Krishna is absolute. There is no difference between his form, name, mouth, feet. If one is chanting Govinda, Krishna, Raam, the lord is there in form of namavatar.

 

Critisising "normal" people who do not chant is one thing but critisizing chanting people is another !I wont go deep on this now but I will tell you one thing : Ask your Guru Maharaj how many people and Babajis in Vraj are doing things that SEEMS to go against scripture. Smoking tobacco or ...Still these people are highly respected by greatest Gaudiya acaryas and also Iskcon. You ask and look for truth if you don 't believe this ! You will be surprised to know if this is right.

 

One thing always sure : Krishna name is namavatar. No difference between name and His form. No( fundamental )difference between chanting the name or engaging in lila. (Difference only on trancendental plane ) No use reading this or saying this if one does not believe this. One should believe that name is same as Krishna!! Krishna is associating with everybody who does japa or kirtan etc. Some critisizer still see a gay because some critisizers are still under maya and living in prison called dvanda-mohena.

 

BG.

Iccha dvesa samutthena

dvanda mohena Bharat

Sarva bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti Parantap.

 

 

Someone who TRUELY believes in power of name will understand that ANY chanter of one of Govinda s beautifull names is already liberated. Offcourse also the "gay "people. He also is Jiv-mukta already. Already is liberated. Gayness ONLY existing in eyes, brain and memory of critisizers. Like seeing light of star that does not exist anymore. He sees star but star is not there.

 

If you want to hear sanskrit or bengali sloka from Gita, Bhagv, C.C. that confirms certain things I said. Read the books.When one will read them, then one will find them.

 

Some will realise that there is beginners "doctrine, "advanced " and "special " doctrine that seem to contradict eachother but one should be ready to hear this. You ask your Guru Maharaj if this is true. You ask him and show him this post.

 

EVERYBODY who keeps glorifieng the name of Mukunda is already liberated. Their socalled sinless behaviour or imperfectness is only real and continuating in the eyes of conditioned souls.

 

I cannot judge or critisize somebody who is uttering the beautifull names of Krishna and Raam. Nobody has the right to critisize somebody who is chanting Krishna name. Only his guru or else Krishna can!

 

But it will take many lives to get to the point of understanding this and sometimes one is not ready to hear this.

 

HB

[Guest guest]

harekrsna prabhu.... no one were criticizing no one before you has come telling us to avoid critics

[Guest guest]

"Kali-kale nama- rupe krishna avatar "..>>> In this age krishna has descended in the form of His holy name.

 

Krishna is associating with bhaktas in namavatara-rupa. Also with chanting gay bhakta. Offcourse gayness is not example for us but it is not our business to critisize somebody who is already engaged in bhakti and already chanting. Why should we? He has reached a very special position after many lives. Krishna himself is there in namavatararupa. His guru and/or Krishna will give advice.

 

If somebody is sincerely chanting DESPITE certain behaviour. Why critisizing, giving comments while Krishna is there? Do we see a gay or do we see a most fortunate person who is awarded with the special mercy of saying :

 

hare krishna hare krishna

krishna krishna

hare hare

 

hare Rama hare Rama

Rama Rama

hare hare

 

Garuda purana :

If one chants the holy name of the Lord, even in an helpless condition or without desiring to do so, ALL OF the reactions of his sinfull life depart, just as when a lion roars, all the small animals flee in fear.

 

HK

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Than you

 

Yes it is Krasn's who makes our anarthas disappear only if our effort is sincere, we may chant but if our desires are in opposite direction he fullfils those desires also.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

RE

(Krishna is absolute. There is no difference between his form, name, mouth, feet. If one is chanting Govinda, Krishna, Raam, the lord is there in form of namavatar.)

 

These are all wonderful no one can dispute this, but taking shelter in naam one should not think I have a license to do any thing I want.

 

Re

(Critisising "normal" people who do not chant is one thing but critisizing chanting people is another)

 

No it is other way round normal people engaged in material thing is understandable but a chanter seeking to justify sinful activity is another.

 

Re

( !I wont go deep on this now but I will tell you one thing : Ask your Guru Maharaj how many people and Babajis in Vraj are doing things that SEEMS to go against scripture. Smoking tobacco or ...Still these people are highly respected by greatest Gaudiya acaryas and also Iskcon. You ask and look for truth if you don 't believe this ! You will be surprised to know if this is right.)

 

Yes they give respect to those born in Vrag but ask these gurus if they give respect to them because they are born there or because they are smoking etc.

 

Re

(One thing always sure : Krishna name is namavatar. No difference between name and His form. No( fundamental )difference between chanting the name or engaging in lila. (Difference only on trancendental plane ) No use reading this or saying this if one does not believe this. One should believe that name is same as Krishna!! Krishna is associating with everybody who does japa or kirtan etc. Some critisizer still see a gay because some critisizers are still under maya and living in prison called dvanda-mohena.)

 

A chanter critisizer is in maya but a chanter gay is transcendental wow great logic by your own standard.

 

BG.

Iccha dvesa samutthena

dvanda mohena Bharat

Sarva bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti Parantap.

 

You forgot to give the translation

 

O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.

 

Now what is this dvanda mohena, Iccha and dvesa ie desires and hate so as long as one has desires and hate where is the question of spiritual progress. Read the next verse whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and free from dvand mohena.

 

Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination.

 

We are all in this material world therefore not free from maya, chanting is a purification process therefore we have to give up our sinful activities not justify them.

 

Re

(Someone who TRUELY believes in power of name will understand that ANY chanter of one of Govinda s beautifull names is already liberated)

 

Nice sentiment but what you are trying to do is encourage gayism.

 

Re

(. Offcourse also the "gay "people. He also is Jiv-mukta already. Already is liberated. Gayness ONLY existing in eyes, brain and memory of critisizers. Like seeing light of star that does not exist anymore. He sees star but star is not there. )

 

You are simply playing with words a jiv mukta is neither gay or anything he is past any material desires. If a guy person who has taken up spiritual practice and given up old habits then he is situated on higher plane but if he is still exhibit those tendency then your star example does not apply since the star has collapsed where else the desires of the person is live in this circumstance one should not try and justify those tendencies because that becomes a binding force to remain in this material world

 

The Supreme Lord said: It is Kaama and anger born of Rajo Guna. Kaama is insatiable and is a great devil. Know this as the enemy. (3.37)

Kaama, the passionate desire for all sensual and material pleasures, becomes anger if it is unfulfilled. As the fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by the amnion, similarly the Self-knowledge gets obscured by Kaama. (3.38)

O Arjuna, Jnana gets covered by this insatiable fire of Kaama, the eternal enemy of Jnani. (3.39)

The senses, the mind, and the intellect are said to be the seat of Kaama. Kaama, with the help of the senses, deludes a person by veiling Jnana. (3.40)

Therefore, O Arjuna, by controlling the senses kill this devil (of material desire) that destroys knowledge and discrimination. (3.41)

 

By all means chant but if you think now I am mukta and carry on with all my nonsense you are only deluding your self.

 

Re

(If you want to hear sanskrit or bengali sloka from Gita, Bhagv, C.C. that confirms certain things I said. Read the books.When one will read them, then one will find them. )

 

There are no slokas that glorifies homosex.

 

Re

(Some will realise that there is beginners "doctrine, "advanced " and "special " doctrine that seem to contradict each other but one should be ready to hear this. You ask your Guru Maharaj if this is true. You ask him and show him this post.)

 

You do not need doctrine or otherwise to know that uncontrolled sex life is a hindrance in spiritual or material field.

 

Re

(EVERYBODY who keeps glorifieng the name of Mukunda is already liberated. Their socalled sinless behaviour or imperfectness is only real and continuating in the eyes of conditioned souls.)

 

And those who seek to justify the imperfectness are not only deluding them self but also misguiding the conditioned souls.

 

Re

(I cannot judge or critisize somebody who is uttering the beautifull names of Krishna and Raam. Nobody has the right to critisize somebody who is chanting Krishna name. Only his guru or else Krishna can!)

 

Power of discrimination must be there otherwise one easily fall pray to impostors

Tulsidas said Mukh me Ram or Bagal me churi be aware.

 

Re

(But it will take many lives to get to the point of understanding this and sometimes one is not ready to hear this. )

 

Ready to understand what? that it is ok to chant as well as continue with all the nonsense I was doing before.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

No it is other way round normal people engaged in material thing is understandable but a chanter seeking to justify sinful activity is another.

 

 

"sinful activities " are not sinful if these activities are done for Krishna.

 

Remember Dwarka...there were prostitues there...Many devotees of Lord can be prostitues. They are not doing sinful activities in eyes of Krishna. If somebody has anger that cannot be controlled...let hem use anger for Krishna. If one has strong tendency to fight and one cannot overcome this..let him fight for Krishna...If one is adicted to sex, same story...he should use this in Krishna service. There is NOTHING that cannot be used in service in Krishna. If Krishna wants, he will changes his gaydevotee in hetero or happy celibacy. If homosexuality will proof to be demon..Madhusudana kills it. If this homosexuality is not taken away by Krishna then this homosexuality as long as it is there like everything else should be used in service to Krishna.

 

EVERYTHING can be used in sevice of Krishsna. Thing as prostitution and homosexuality are to be regarded as sinfull from a certain point but NOT when they are used in service of Krishna. There is story of man who went to prostitution house in great storm. This prostitute was devotee. She gave him advice to put his effort in devotional service. In this way she was very pleasing for the Lord. Using her female attraction to bring her costumers closer to the Lord.

 

 

Nice sentiment but what you are trying to do is encourage gayism.

 

 

No. Quote me please. I said that Homosexuality is no example

[Guest guest]

Nice sentiment but what you are trying to do is encourage gayism.

 

 

 

Quote me. I said, homosexuality is not example to be followed.But still, it is Madhusudana who crushes the demon Madhu and can take away every doubt or obstacle. Krishna and guru decide wich things are obstacles or tools to use. We might not understand how Krishna works in the beginning but we must believe there is no end to the mercy of the Lord.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

What you are preaching is totaly unVedic, yes the Lord is all mercyful who he grants his mercy is in his hand, but to think every thing can be used in his service is way out of line.I will stop here because this is getting absurd. i shell part with what Krishna say ignore it at your cost.

Bg 16

tri-vidham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanam atmanah

kamah krodhas tatha lobhas

tasmad etat trayam tyajet

TRANSLATION

There are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[maadhav]

<< Sexuality is not condemned in Hinduism. Although Kaama (lust) is one of the Ari Shadvarga's to be conquered (ther others being Krodha, Lobha, Moha, Mada and Matsarya), it is also one of the four Purushaarthas (Dharma, Artha, Kaama and Moksha). >>

 

kaama, one of the purushaartha, is not lust, but it means enjoying with all the senses, including sex; but sex enjoyment is alsways restricted in hinduism. one who is lusty never can get moksha, because he always needs body to enjoy. and so, he alwasy will re-incarnate.

 

narad, sukadev goswami, hanumanji, and many saints of the past an present have quonquered lust. one who wants to progress spiritualy, falls down with sex, whether homo or hetero. homo is worse, becaue it goes agaisnt its purpose.

 

brahma has created this automation for producing polulation: male and female. homos cannot produce children. that is why any homosexual activity is just a waste of time and energy, and it misguides the jiva. the the jiva cannot get moksha.

 

[Guest guest]

Vaiddhi bhakti is about doctrine and regulations. Is in beginning and for average mainstream people. But unpredictable Krishna does make "exceptions "in creation or situation. Thats why only Krishna and the guru can give the best special advice for special cases!

 

But this is often done privately and mostly confidential.

 

This thread is not about who can quote best gitasloka. Issue is what is best advice for gaydevotee. Like I said, in non-mainstreamcases holy guru will say other things in confidence to his diciple. I finish this post with some little example : Here words of famous Iskcon guru H.H. Tripurari Svami :

 

"My opinion regarding gay and lesbian devotees is that they should be honored in terms of their devotion and spiritual progress. They should cultivate spiritual life from either a celibate status, or in something analogous to a heterosexual monogamous situation. Gay and lesbian people have always been a part of society from Vedic times to our postmodern times. They should be accepted for what they are in terms of their sexual orientation and encouraged like everyone else to pursue spiritual life.”

 

Hindu scripture is largely silent on homosexuality, although it may be acknowledged in books such as the Kama-sutra, but not with regard to spiritual progress. Modern Hinduism for the most part condemns homosexuality but misunderstands it to be an improper choice rather than psychophysical reality that some people are born with, rendering them as attracted to the same sex, as heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex. As modern society has come to better understand this phenomenon, it is also imperative that Hindu traditions do the same if they are to remain vital."

( Sanga, vol. 5 nr. 13 )

 

Hope people understand and read this. Not everybody is mainstream.Best advice for special cases will always come from Krishna and guru.

 

HK

 

[Guest guest]

"Yes it is Krasn's who makes our anarthas disappear only if our effort is sincere, we may chant but if our desires are in opposite direction he fullfils those desires also."

 

i do not agree... sincerity is almost a meaningless concept for a conditionated soul... we are never sincere until we are liberated..

 

and chanting, being krsna, is more powerful than our intentions and it leads necessarily to krsna

 

see the druva maharaja's story: he was meditating on vishnu with the material desire to be the emperor of a planet.. when his meditation were so intense that vishnu gave his darshan to druva, he instantly abandoned his materialist desires and turned his exclusive attention to the lord

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

I had no intention of carry on this debate but since you think I am engaged in quoting Gita Sloka as some kind of competition I have to respond, you keep saying only Krishna or guru can advise, first of all guru’s advise is never against the shastra, and you have just rejected Krishna subtly that is the power of Maya, you have dismissed the slokas spoken by him as some kind of competition by me.

There is no question of rejecting any one, for every one is welcome to spiritual life, even rapist and murderer, what to speak of guy person but to suggest some how or any how that those practice are conducive to spiritual progress is adharma.Krishna says give up all dharma but if you cant give up adharma what chance is there

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(i do not agree... sincerity is almost a meaningless concept for a conditionated soul... we are never sincere until we are liberated..)

 

ofcourse it is your choice agree or not, sincerity is a quality worth striving for, the lord knows how serious we are.

 

Re

(and chanting, being krsna, is more powerful than our intentions and it leads necessarily to krsna)

 

No doubt of the power of chanting, Ajamil is a great example

 

Are you prepare to take that chance that you will remember Krishna at the time of death, while harbouring so many material desires.

 

Maharaj Bharat is a great example of the attachment.

Sada tad bhava bhavihtah.

 

Re

(see the druva maharaja's story: he was meditating on vishnu with the material desire to be the emperor of a planet.. when his meditation were so intense that vishnu gave his darshan to druva, he instantly abandoned his materialist desires and turned his exclusive attention to the lord)

 

Wonderful story of 5 year old and his determination, which led to Lord Vhihnu.can you see the point here the lord grant him his wish of being an emperor.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

of course it is your choice agree or not, sincerity is a quality worth striving for, the lord knows how serious we are.

--we are speaking of highest states of spirituality. To be really sincere means to completely admit that we are krsna's servants and simultaneously to surrender totally to Him. If we keep even an atom of egoism we are not really sincere.

It is like the word "purity".. the real value of it depends from the context. So our main effort is not to be sincere, thing that it is impossible to achieve by ourselves, our effort is in surrendering to krsna. He, who is the only who has the power to control our mind, will make us sincere in wanting him and nothing else

 

Are you prepare to take that chance that you will remember Krishna at the time of death, while harbouring so many material desires.

--the only way to sweep away such desires is chanting hare krsna to increase the our desire to have krsna.. again, material desires are put in our heart by maya, who are us to fight maya who is controlled only by krsna?

Again surrendering to krsna is the only way..

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hope this is not debating just for debate. Seems we have different realisations. But for sake of gaydevotee and others I will try once more to explain.

 

you keep saying only Krishna or guru can advise, first of all guru’s advise is never against the shastra, and you have just rejected Krishna subtly that is the power of Maya, you have dismissed the slokas spoken by him as some kind of competition by me.

 

 

 

Yes. I do advice and stresses importance of guru in this matter because probably only some bonafide guru who has given serious thought about this matter can advice the gaydevotee. One should realise that this will not be the first gaydevotee who committs suicide because of wrong advices of other devotees!!! I will give you the story later.

 

Generally speaken guru will not say or act against shastra. But guru has to preach according to time, place and audience and you will see that many rules are broken from time to time for sake of bhakti.According to shastra, sannyasi must not cross ocean. Still this is done, for spreading bhakti. According to shastra , sannyasi must avoid every contact with women. Even Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself did not allow women to come near and did not initiate. But still we see that in today s bhaktimovements are many woman and founder-acarya was in close contact with woman. According to shastra is it forbidden to cheat husband.But what do we see later in 10th canto ,greatest devotees do ? Their bhakti transcends everything.

 

Gita is important since it is basic. According to gita we must avoid anger and anger is seen as great obstacle but why do we see great devotees and also guru can become angry ? Guru has not read gita ? If gita says anger is bad, why then are devotees adviced to use anger in devotional service ? Offcourse anger is not good but still it will become a useful tool if it is done for Krishna. One will develope eyes to see that there is beginnerslevel and more advanced level.

 

Guru will act and preach according to time , place and audience.Guru is responsible for disciple. In vaishnavism we learn that guru is important. Guru can form a bridge between devotee and krishna. Relationship is not oneway service. He is the one who will take disciple out of ocean. Guru must come back and back in this world till disciple has been liberated. This is not simple game or relation. Advice of guru can be very personal.I m not saying that rules can be easily broken or ignored but these rules have to lead somewhere. If these rules in particulair cases do not apply anymore or in certain cases will lead to an unhealthy situation for the devotee then the guru has the right to act and give devotee special personal advice. This has been done before and will continue since spiritual progress is a dynamic not static proces. It is not just a matter of push this button and do not touch that button.

 

 

There is no question of rejecting any one, for every one is welcome to spiritual life, even rapist and murderer, what to speak of guy person but to suggest some how or any how that those practice are conducive to spiritual progress is adharma.Krishna says give up all dharma but if you cant give up adharma what chance is there

 

 

 

You have read things said by H.H. Tripurari swami and you bet he has read gita. Did he say that homosexuality is sickness ? Did he say gaydevotee has to become hetero? Did he not say that gaydevotee has to be respected for what they are including their homosexsuality ? Read again please what he said.

 

Some gurus are more "conservative" than others. This has alway been case and does not necessarely mean one guru is more right than others. I quote H.H. Bhakti Marga Svami :

 

"The steps taken towards diksa can be discussed as a private matter with the desired guru in mind. Attitudes will vary from guru to guru on the multi-sexual variants of today, and some will be more broad-minded on the subject. All persons must be dealt with on an individual basis.... "H.H. Bhakti Marga svami.

 

Best advice I can give to struggling gaydevotees is to listen to holy gurus like Tripurari Svami, Bhakti Marga Svami and Bhakti Tirtha Svami who have given some thought about it in THIS time. There is only ONE jagad-guru but he will speak through other gurus but the message can differ on certain points from time to time.

 

I will give just one example how sensitive issue homosexuality can be :

 

article Hare Krishna Cultural journal :

 

One devotee in Potomac had committed suicide, and this

person committed suicide mainly based on the anxiety and bewilderment of being in a body that was third gender (gay) and having difficulty trying to understand his role and position in devotional service."

 

This is a well-known incident. The devotee who committed suicide had at one point applied to the Mayapura Gurukula to teach. To prequalify for the service he was queried as to whether or not he was homosexual and he affirmed he was. He was turned down for that service, and soon after he killed himself...(article Hare Krishna Cultural Journal )

 

Does one understand shastric regulation? Does want one understand what regulation of sense-activity is all about? Maybe this article wil be usefull :

 

The next consideration. Is it possible that something may be morally beneficial for one person's particular psycho-physical conditioning, while at the same time that same thing is detrimental to another's? If so, then is there any absolute standard of moral principle?

 

In regard to the first question, consider a person who is addicted to meat. He cannot give it up, though he is convinced it is wrong to continue. The sastra then restricts him- not the meat of the mother( cow ), and then only under strict regulation. But for a person not addicted to meat, following this regulation would be most detrimental.

 

Now consider a person addicted to sex- which is most of us to a greater or lesser degree. Sastra again gives a limitation- do so within a marriage. Limit it, and regulate it, and ideally use it for the service of the Lord by producing and training offspring in bhakti. Then that very activity that was entangling is purifying. But if one is actually not attracted, then it is detrimental. Better to stay brahmacari/ni.

 

Now we have the situation of gay marriage. Again, there is addiction to sex, but not to the opposite sex. What are these people supposed to do- repress their desires, or limit and regulate them and if possible use them in the service of the Lord? Clearly, the latter is our philosophy. Still the question arises: Can a gay marriage be used in the service of the Lord?

 

The use of marriage in the service of the Lord is not restricted to production of devotee children. By regulating the senses, one is in a better position to render devotional service to the Lord; one is peaceful. This is explained by Srila Prabhupada in his purports to the fight between Gajendra and the crocodile. It all depends on one's motivation. A devotee may be bound by his psychophysical tendencies to act in a certain way, but within his limitations, he renders service to the Lord. He does not allow his psychophysical tendencies to go unchecked; he restricts them by use of his intelligence and does not waste his valuable energy repressing them or justifying their existence in service to his ego. He recognizes them for what they are, and prosecutes his devotional service anyway. Marriage is a means for restricting the activities of sex. Why should it be limited to heterosexual couples? ( article Chakra site )

 

As you hopefully can see, there is an depth in understanding shastra and remember..gopis did not read shastra.

 

HK

 

[Guest guest]

SB 3.20.26 Purport:

 

"[T]he homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life."

[Guest guest]

It should be noted that Srila Prabhupada called ANY pursuit of material enjoyment, which includes the desire for mukti and any other so-called enjoyment separate from the interest of the Lord, as demoniac, insane, crazy and so on. These terms do not apply to devotees, who while temporarily unable to give up material enjoyments are dedicated whole-heartedly to the Lord's service nevertheless.