Mayavadi Defeated?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

This is great from jaiva-dharma- Chapter 15: Prameya: Jiva-Tattva

 

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Vrajanatha: I heard from my teacher that when it is surrounded by maya, the impersonal brahman becomes the individual spirit soul. When a small portion of the great sky is surrounded by the walls of a clay pot, it becomes the sky within a pot. In the same when the impersonal Brahman is surrounded by Maya, it becomes the individual soul. What does this mean?

 

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Babaji: That is just impersonalism (mayavada). How can maya have the power to touch the Supreme Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can maya even approach Brahman? The maya potency has no independent power. How can she have any effect on the Brahman? It cannot be said that the great Brahman becomes covered by maya and is then forced to suffer in different ways. That is not possible. If Brahman's spiritual potency is always awake and vigilant, how can the insignificant maya-shakti defeat her and proceed to create the individual souls from Brahman in this way? The Supreme Brahman is limitless and immeasurable. How can the limitless Brahman be broken into smaller souls in the same way the great sky is broken into the little skies within a series of clay pots? The idea that maya can have some effect on the Brahman cannot be accepted. Maya has nothing to do with the creation of the individual spirit souls. Although they are atomic in size, the individual spirit souls are superior to maya.

 

 

I defy any Mayavadi or Vaishnava to give a conclution of the above without getting a headache 1st. You'll need take shelter of Bhagavad-gita and Krishna.

 

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There is a download for Jaiva-dharma at this site- [where I pasted this from]

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http://www.geocities.com/theholynameofkrishna/INFOBASEv3.html

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May have to try later, if the limit of downloads is reached, because

I just downloaded it myself.

[Guest guest]

It is your intelligence that is defeated.

 

You only cut one ATMA is many beings. Advaita does not say so.

 

BG 2.24 Acchedyo’yam adaahyo’yam akledyo’shoshya eva cha;

Nityah sarvagatah sthaanur achalo’yam sanaatanah.

 

 

The above verse is the main mantra of advaita.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

#How can you cut something which is eternal?

 

#How can you cut something which is imperishable?

 

Please answer these simple questions.

 

How can Maya which is so small cut and put something to BIG as the Param Brahman [which you call as Supreme formess] CUT souls. Maya must be God...therefore serve Maya.

 

You get my point.

 

[Guest guest]

"The above verse is the main mantra of advaita. "

 

advaitins become dvaitins when they choose carefully wich part of gita suites their tastes and what do not suites

 

accept all gita's statements without discrimination and you'll understand

[Guest guest]

You wax philosophy, yet none of you have realized the truth. Relying on a book, even if it is the Gita, to tell you all about the spirit is a poor way to spiritually progress. Use the Gita as a guide, but don't use it as a crutch.

[Guest guest]

#How can you cut something which is eternal?

 

#How can you cut something which is imperishable?

 

 

Why ask others. Ask your SELF. Your self (and not the SELF) only thinks that it a separate intelligence.

 

You are greatest supporter of Advaita.

[Guest guest]

 

****** advaitins become dvaitins when they choose carefully wich part of gita suites their tastes and what do not suites

 

accept all gita's statements without discrimination and you'll understand *************

 

 

BG 2.24 Acchedyo’yam adaahyo’yam akledyo’shoshya eva cha;

Nityah sarvagatah sthaanur achalo’yam sanaatanah.

 

 

Accepting all parts of Gita, still "Acchedyo’yam adaahyo’yam sanatanah", will remain true.

 

And what part of Gita you are talting of? Gita is one.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

your answer is useless.. a religions' book is a guide for our religion's understanding and practice

 

if not what is it?

[Guest guest]

"Gita is one. "

 

so accept everything,

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

How it can be eternal and still be cut to pieces by a small thing as Maya. This is Mayavadi false.

[Guest guest]

Nothing is cut.

 

So, you answer what are the individuals?

[Guest guest]

 

 

Govindaram here not logged in..

 

Individuals are eternally exsisting, just Like Krishna.

 

IF you say something is eternal..then how can it possibly merge? It defys the logic that anything can be eternal and at the SAME time merge. If we could merge, that would mean Maya is so great that it can make us [who you may are param-brahman] that She can cut souls from the Great Sky [brahmajyoti]. Put us here. Then you say we are in Maya by being here, then when we go UP there we again come in Maya? How can Maya be so great? That it can cut souls from the Great sky? as you call it? This is Maya from start to finish. Your never merged even when going there, your always Eternally inididual. All you had to do is except Krishna when He says this in Gita.

 

www.asitis.com/2/12.html

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

 

If we all accepted Gita AS IT IS. Without intrepretation then we would all be more happy. Sriman Sankracharya [who is accepted as Mahajana because He is Incarnation of Shiva] gave a False Doctrine. Which Only Krishna knows why, because people were becoming Buddists in that era. But the Philosohpy has so many unanswered questions in it. That ANY devotee with with a little faith in scriptures [you need faith-sradhha-without this your worse than athiest], can see the many contradictions in Sankracharya philosohpy.

 

hare krishna

[Rajashekhar]

The concept of Maya is not well understood by many Hindus.

 

Sathyam: refers to that which does not change. The word essentially means Immutability. Which is why the statement "Brahma Sathyam Jagath Mithya" came about. Since Atman is indistinguishable from Brahman, Atman is also Sathyam. According to Advaithic point of view, an Atman who is trapped inside a mortal body and bound by Karmaphala thinks that the Jagath, which is Mithya (or continuously changing) is Sathyam, instead of Atman or Brahman.

 

I have not read or heard that Brahman is affected by Maya. The premise of the dialogue in the original post by Govindaram is not exactly accurate.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

You say the world is false. But we say its only temp manifested. Like a dream state. Even though a dream is false, your body still exists and you still exist. But the body is Not you. So in the same way your body in this world still exists and YOU still exist. But in a dream like state. The fact that this world is false is in the sense that we don't belong here. But factually anything that has been produced of the Energy of Krishna cannot be factually called False. The energy of Krishna here in this world is called Temporary only because everything in this World is temp manifested and nothing can ever be permanent in this world.

 

You simply put down this falsity because you want that any form then coming to this world can be called 'Maya'. So in essence this world is NOT false, but it is false as far as sense enjoyment is concerned. We are trapped in these bodies, and we enjoy small happiness like, eating, sleeping, mating etc. But the real happiness is not in these, neither can Impersonal liberation award any bliss.

 

If you are merged with something, you can have no facility to enjoy because your individuality is taken away. This is almost like being a Tree in this material world. But even worse. Bliss can only be derived when you are conscious and there is another entity with which to enjoy this bliss. Otherwise this Liberation is almost like spiritual suicide. Because the souls inherent nature is to be always blissful, therefore considering all these points, this liberation is like death for the devotees of Krishna.

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Govindramji,

 

Thanks a lot.

 

The dvaita sites and proponents deride Sankara, and at times with poor choice of language for allegedly saying: "Jagat Mithyam". (To confirm this one can see dvaita sites).

 

But Sankara says:

 

"Jagat Mithyam, Brahman Satya, Brahman is Jagat."

 

When the SAT -- the Brahman is Jagat, how can Jagat be Asat?

 

What you percieve with your senses is not the changeless and eternal truth, but is a movie picture.

[Guest guest]

***** If you are merged with something, you can have no facility to enjoy because your individuality is taken away. *********

 

What an idea. Do you not love yourself?

 

Keep your individuality and serve Lord, all the while priding "I am a great servant". And forget that "Krishna is the doer".

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Which Sastra says that we love ourself? This is another Mayavadi thought. We can never love ourself. Love can be practised when two seperate individuals are present. This love of ourself means, lust. This is not pure love.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

But Sankara says:

 

"Jagat Mithyam, Brahman Satya, Brahman is Jagat."

 

When the SAT -- the Brahman is Jagat, how can Jagat be Asat?

 

What you percieve with your senses is not the changeless and eternal truth, but is a movie picture.

 

 

 

The Brahman is not the jagat, it is an energy called Material energy of God. All your oneness brings you always to the same conclustion, everything is Maya except the nonsence you speak.

[Rajashekhar]

"You say the world is false. But we say its only temp manifested. Like a dream state. Even though a dream is false, your body still exists and you still exist. But the body is Not you. So in the same way your body in this world still exists and YOU still exist. But in a dream like state. The fact that this world is false is in the sense that we don't belong here. But factually anything that has been produced of the Energy of Krishna cannot be factually called False. The energy of Krishna here in this world is called Temporary only because everything in this World is temp manifested and nothing can ever be permanent in this world."

 

Govindram,

 

I did not say the world is false. The word Sathyam does not mean, in this context, the truth. The word Sathyam has two meanings. One is "Truth" and the other is "Immutability". It is Immutability I was referring to.

 

The material creation we encounter every day mutates continuously. If you are familiar with old Greek philosophy (which is very similar to Hindu thoughts), Heraclitus proposed that one cannot step into the same river twice; this is because the river changes continuously. You can never see the same sunset twice, our bodies change, the world around us changes, continuously. What does not change is Sathyam. Thus "Brahma Sathyam Jagath Mithya" statement.

 

In Vedanta, two examples are offered to explain what is Sathyam. A goldsmith may melt a gold ornament and make another out of it; or, a pot make a pot out of clay. When you melt the ornament and produce another, the gold itself is the same, just re-arranged in a different way. Thus the ornament is mutable but the original gold atoms are Sathyam.

 

The world is not false. It is only temporary and ever-changing. That is what is Maya.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

If you accept this point, then you will also accept that if it is indeed only temporary. But you say it is Maya. Because you say it is Maya, you believe anybody who comes into this world is ALSO Maya. You DO NOT accept the fact that The Pure Spiritual Soul can have a Spiritual Body. You DO NOT accept the fact that God Cannot be covered by maya. Therefore your a Mayavadi. Anything you say is covered with thoughts of simply Illusion.

[Rajashekhar]

"If you accept this point, then you will also accept that if it is indeed only temporary. But you say it is Maya. Because you say it is Maya, you believe anybody who comes into this world is ALSO Maya. You DO NOT accept the fact that The Pure Spiritual Soul can have a Spiritual Body. You DO NOT accept the fact that God Cannot be covered by maya. Therefore your a Mayavadi. Anything you say is covered with thoughts of simply Illusion. "

 

The Atman, according to Hinduism, is not Maya. Maya refers to the lack of knowledge about mutable nature of objects. Because of Maya, the person thinks that there is no difference between the body and the Atman. Like Brahman, the Atman does not change. But the bodies change. Even Rama's and Krishna's bodies aged and eventully they died. Lord Shiva is called "Mayavi" in the Shiva Sahasranaama and as a Mayavi, He is outside of the Maya that He creates. Now where did you hear about a Spritual Body for the "Pure Spritual Soul"? Can you provide references? Don't quote a 18th or 20th Century Vaishnavite. It has to be from Shruthi.

[Guest guest]

Keep your individuality and serve Lord, all the while priding "I am a great servant". And forget that "Krishna is the doer".

 

if krsna does... if he acts... it means that in the absolute there's variety.. so features and individualities

 

(to think to be a great servant of the Lord is not the perfection, but it is better than think to be the Lord)

 

"What an idea. Do you not love yourself?"

 

a-dvaita means no plurality.... ONE

 

1)you

2)love

3)a self to love

 

is THREE

 

(please do not preach what you cannot experience, where's the use?)

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Are you serious? I feel like I am talking to some half-wit now. Krishna didn't age past 26. if you want to talk about Vedas, please talk in a coherent manner. You are simply being offensive now. I don't wish any further talks with you. Please understand everything I have said. And accept Brahman CAN have form, and be formless at the same time. This is achintya..

 

How can millions of trees come from 1 seed?

 

 

[Guest guest]

******* The Brahman is not the jagat, it is an energy called Material energy of God. All your oneness brings you always to the same conclustion, everything is Maya except the nonsence you speak *************

 

****** everything is Maya except the nonsence you speak **************

 

The ignorant are always very rude. They find pleasure in rudeness.

 

But you accept that what I speak is nonsense to you, but everything else is Maya.

 

 

 

 

***** Which Sastra says that we love ourself? This is another Mayavadi thought. ***********

 

 

For you the following verse holds true. One whop falsely claim that one has no love of self is in peril.

 

Br. U.

 

I-iv-8: This Self is dearer than a son, dearer than wealth, dearer than everything else, and is innermost. Should a person (holding the Self as dear) say to one calling anything else dearer than the Self, ‘(what you hold) dear will die’ – he is certainly competent (to say so) – it will indeed come true. One should meditate upon the Self alone as dear. Of him who meditates upon the Self alone as dear, the dear ones are not mortal.

 

 

As for shashtra:

 

 

IV-v-6: He said: ‘It is not for the sake of the husband, my dear, that he is loved, but for one’s own sake that he is loved. It is not for the sake of the wife, my dear, that she is loved, but for one’s own sake that she is loved. It is not for the sake of the sons, my dear, that they are loved, but for one’s own sake that they are loved. It is not for the sake of wealth, my dear, that it is loved, but for one’s own sake that it is loved. It is not for the sake of the Brahmana, my dear, that he is loved, but for one’s own sake that he is loved. It is not for the sake of the Kshatriya, my dear, that he is loved, but for one’s own sake that he is loved. It is not for the sake of worlds, my dear, that they are loved, but for one’s own sake that they are loved. It is not for the sake of the gods, my dear, that they are loved, but for one’s own sake that they are loved. It is not for the sake of beings, my dear, that they are loved, but for one’s own sake that they are loved. It is not for the sake of all, my dear, that all is loved, but for one’s own sake that it is loved. The Self, my dear Maitreyi, should be realised – should be heard of, reflected on and meditated upon. When the Self, my dear, is realised by being heard of, reflected on and meditated upon, all this is known.

 

 

You are untruthful, if you say that you dont love yourself the most. And you yet do not know what your your real self is.

 

For that this shashtra:

 

 

III-vii-22: He who inhabits the intellect, but is within it, whom the intellect does not know, whose body is the intellect, and who controls the intellect from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self.

III-vii-23: He who inhabits the organ of generation, but is within it, whom the organ of generation does not know, whose body is the organ of generation, and who controls the organ of generation from within, is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. He is never seen, but is the Witness; He is never heard, but is the Hearer; He is never thought, but is the Thinker; He is never known, but is the Knower. There is no other witness but Him, no other hearer but Him, no other thinker but Him, no other knower but Him. He is the Internal Ruler, your own immortal self. Everything else but Him is mortal.’ Thereupon Uddalaka, the son of Aruna, kept silent.

 

 

And there are many more.

 

 

There is one example where a purusha gives up everything for protection of his own prana. You may search for it as a good exercise.

 

 

Om Namah Sivayya

[Guest guest]

***** The Brahman is not the jagat, it is an energy called Material energy of God. ***********

 

Material as well as Energy? You are talking of Relativity?

 

 

 

If that is the case then is this material something out of nothing or is it from Brahman?

 

Material energy. Wow. I learn lot from you.