Shiva versus Vishnu: Who is greater?

[Guest guest]

***** It is really surprising why considering ‘many roads/many names/ many forms’ as truths within God, you still abuse others who profess different paths.

--many roads,many names,many forms are abused by the one who say that their variety is maya. So it has to be said how they are wrong ********

 

And not by those who call others cheats? You have to show how great sages are false by calling them cheats? Hey, forget it. You are no spiritual person.

 

 

Rest do not deserve any reply.

 

Bye.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"krishna is the supreme personality of godhead, and vishnu is his manifestation / expansion in the mode of cosmic preservation. if you 'do not care', then dont argue."

 

if you are intelligent... judge the context of discussion, and judge why in a discussion about impersonalism and personalism i judge such things as subtleties

 

our classifications are technical.. we're monotheist, not polytheist.. krsna and vishnu are the same person showing (often) different aspects of his personality

 

that's the meaning of expansion/manifestation in spiritual environment

 

then we judge the krsna's aspect somewhat higher in freedom because krsna's performs only actions for his and his associates' pleasure while vishnu has "government duties"

 

 

[Guest guest]

"***** It is really surprising why considering ‘many roads/many names/ many forms’ as truths within God, you still abuse others who profess different paths.

--many roads,many names,many forms are abused by the one who say that their variety is maya. So it has to be said how they are wrong ********

And not by those who call others cheats? You have to show how great sages are false by calling them cheats? Hey, forget it. You are no spiritual person. "

 

 

the great om namah shivaya in a repetition loop

 

if someone is not a sage (who thinks that god is oneness only and not also variety), no sage is offended if he's called cheater,,

 

i am not a spiritual person so i am trying to learn, to surrender, to not negate krsna's supremacy

 

[Guest guest]

"and god being beyond simply a krishna avataar is a dull concept?"

 

there's nothing beyond krsna, there's nothing beyond brahman, there's nothing beyond paramatma, spirit is one, there's no higher and lower

 

read the gita

[Guest guest]

Do you ever read? Since, I see you in a rut. A reading, contemplating, and meditating person is never in a rut.

 

God is digambara. Clothes are your imaginations.

 

 

Well Freind,

 

You are in one one endless loop. As far as I remember for last one and half years.

 

'Variety, god realtionates (though i do not understand the meaning) and such.

 

 

No one says "god is oneness only and not also variety". God has infinite variety inbuilt. God is not oneness. He is one. But attachment to the play of gunas is the cause of re births.

 

What is 'Oneness'? Clarify your concepts within yourself first.

 

 

 

18.21 Prithaktwena tu yajjnaanam naanaabhaavaan prithagvidhaan;

Vetti sarveshu bhooteshu tajjnaanam viddhi raajasam.

 

18. 21. But that knowledge which sees in all beings various entities of distinct kinds as different from one another—know thou that knowledge to be Rajasic (passionate).

 

 

Life forses make God manifold but he is least bothered. He remains Digambara.

 

Rig Veda Book 5 HYMN III. Agni.

 

3 The life forces deck their beauty for thy glory, yea, Rudra, for thy birth fair, brightly-coloured. That which was fixed as Visnu's loftiest station-therewith the secret of the Cows thou guardest.

 

 

 

RV Book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas

 

 

30 That which hath breath and speed and life and motion lies firmly stablished in the midst of houses.

Living, by offerings to the Dead he moveth Immortal One, the brother of the mortal.

31 I saw the Herdsman, him who never stumbles, approaching by his pathways and departing.

He, clothed with gathered and diffusive splendour, within the worlds continually travels.

32 He who hath made him cloth not comprehend him: from him who saw him surely is he hidden.

He, yet enveloped in his Mother's bosom, source of much life, hath sunk into destruction.

 

 

Lord is digambara. You only clothe him as per your desires.

 

 

And repeating scriptures is punya. Repeating one's opinion without logic and scriptual support is bondage.

 

Bye Bye

 

On Namah Sivayya

[Rajashekhar]

_________

******* The truth is that there is no such thing as Pramana. *********

 

That is when in ekam advaitam where vac also is non-existent. But not before that. Vac being a pointer is pramana and not the truth itself.

 

******* I can point out a few examples of untruth in the Vedic literature, *********

 

No, I do not know. Please give examples.

_________

 

All you need to do, my good man, is to read parts of Atharvana Veda. The older day Brahmins thought they had a cure for everything including how to make a woman fall in love with you. Don't tell me that Atharvana Veda is not a Veda, because it is!

 

 

_________

******* [The second point. You are partly echoing Upanishads, but very wrongly. What is the source of the pure minds wherein the shrutis were delivered? Lord Pragnya is the root.]

 

OK, I understand your point, but in what context? ********

 

You have said earlier that gods are imaginations of sages. This is the subject of Upanishads.

 

I would like to differ with the word imagination. I would use Pragnya. The Lord Pragnya, who creates VAC.

 

Moerover, if you as body-mind is true, Iswara is true. When you truly become an Atma, then there is no God beside you. You have become Yuktatma and one.

 

But not before that. And I am not in that stage and I think you are also not in that stage. In our stage, there is a superior power who different people call by different name and visualise in different forms. When Tryambaka takes one there, then only one knows (or realises).

_________

 

It is impossible for a soul with a body (and a mind) to be like a pure soul. I doubt it if you will ever reach a stage where with the mind, the brain, the pre-conceived notions and the experiences you have amassed, you will ever be like a pure Atman.

 

I most agree with what you have written. But the point is that you seem to agree with me too: That the gods including Shiva and Vishnu seem to be born of our imaginations. Am I right?

[Guest guest]

"All you need to do, my good man, is to read parts of Atharvana Veda. The older day Brahmins thought they had a cure for everything including how to make a woman fall in love with you. Don't tell me that Atharvana Veda is not a Veda, because it is!"

 

Please give the example (shloka no. etc). There are many things given in the Vedas which can only work if performed by qualified brahmins. That is why in this age many such cures cannot be implemented.

 

"It is impossible for a soul with a body (and a mind) to be like a pure soul. I doubt it if you will ever reach a stage where with the mind, the brain, the pre-conceived notions and the experiences you have amassed, you will ever be like a pure Atman.

 

I most agree with what you have written. But the point is that you seem to agree with me too: That the gods including Shiva and Vishnu seem to be born of our imaginations. Am I right? "

 

A soul with a body and mind engaged in service of the Lord is pure Atman. Bhagavad Gita (14.26): One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that Shiva and Vishnu are born of our imagination.

[Guest guest]

But attachment to the play of gunas is the cause of re births.

--that's true for the material gunas...the attachement to the lord's qualities and activities is itself liberation

 

when it is related to god.. digambara means without material coverings

 

again.. you do not have to convince me that god is one and he's not subjected to matter...

 

And repeating scriptures is punya

--so repeat and understand.. get out from the loop

[Guest guest]

****** I most agree with what you have written. But the point is that you seem to agree with me too: That the gods including Shiva and Vishnu seem to be born of our imaginations. Am I right? ************

 

What I said was apparently marginally different but no. Till you believe that the body is true, then how can you say that the forms the sages have seen, as untrue?

 

In a particular state of consciousness you see vaisvanara, in anogher taijasa and yet another pragnya. Beyond Pragnya is ekam.

 

All three states of consciousness : represnted by AUM, the waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, are underlain by the ekam satya.

 

 

Only when, you are able to say that the waking state views are imaginations then only you can say gods are imaginations.

 

 

Scriptures are layered and layered. 33 gods are taught and in one small corner it is simply said all these are Aditi.

 

 

******It is impossible for a soul with a body (and a mind) to be like a pure soul. I doubt it if you will ever reach a stage where with the mind, the brain, the pre-conceived notions and the experiences you have amassed, you will ever be like a pure Atman.**********

 

It may be true or may not be. The doer is not this body-mind. If one can constantly remember the doer with love then other burdens fall off.

 

That is what I have been taught. And I believe it.

 

Om Namah Sivayya

 

 

[Guest guest]

******* when it is related to god.. digambara means without material coverings ************

 

So, God is like you, only without clothes?

[Guest guest]

god and his possessions, parafernalia, clothes, weapons are one .. so god is never naked because he's bhagavan, but he's never covered because nothing different from himself can cover god

 

actually i am like god in being ontologically not covered by the matter, but, being god the source of my existence, he can cover me with his maya energy to fulfill my desire to forget him

[Guest guest]

**** actually i am like god in being ontologically not covered by the matter, but, being god the source of my existence, he can cover me with his maya energy to fulfill my desire to forget him ********

 

 

 

This is stupid. One who is like god (not covered) desires to forget God.

 

 

This is Stupid. Your source is Him (actually there is nothing outside Him) but the desires are yours.

 

 

What in you is from Him? And where desires originate in you?

 

 

 

You answer to yourself, if you can. I do not wish to discuss anything with you.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is stupid. One who is like god (not covered) desires to forget God.

••if that's stupid... love and freedom (necessary to love) are stupid

 

This is Stupid. Your source is Him (actually there is nothing outside Him) but the desires are yours.

••he's the source even of my freedom to desire

 

What in you is from Him? And where desires originate in you?

••everything originates in him

 

You answer to yourself, if you can. I do not wish to discuss anything with you.

••that's a free forum, many read and many can give opinions. You are free to avoid to read, i do not speak to you only

[Guest guest]

Who is greater your mother or father? Who is greater water or air?

 

What sort of question is this? Sanatan Dharma preaches that the whole world is your family which includes Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Atheists, Egoistics etc. Here you are creating a competition between Vishnu and Shiva.

 

Rama used to worship Shiva. Shiva worships Vishnu. Isckonites refers to everybody as "Prabhu". Krishna is inside everybody. Can you say head is bigger than tail talking about a coin?

 

Grow up!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chor date Kotwal ko.

 

 

"Isckonites refers to everybody as "Prabhu". "

 

Is this true? What we see is just the reverse. They even shot at people and cows at Mayapur. They do not tolerate others at all. It is them who are in the comparison business.

 

 

[Guest guest]

In this yuga when there are tensions between brother brother, brother sister, father son, husband wife, mother sons...... no wonder something like this can happen.

 

If anybody does some thing like that that person is sure to meet his karmas and reach hell!

 

 

[Guest guest]

it could be different representations of the same being, cosmic consciousness and how it infiltrates human mind at different points on a timeline. however how can we be certain that they ate not both one and the same, which seems to be the trend with the way consciousness is evolving now. we are the parts that make up the whole.

[Raveena]

Aum is our God. Aum is nothing else then brAhma vishnU Mahesh. All three are one and govern the entire universe. 

They have different functions, yet they complete one another. There's a belief that the world started with just the 

sound of Aum and from this Lord Shiva was created and he end up creating Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma. 

 

It is all about belief and blind faith. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna himself tells us to pray to him in whatever form works for you.

"From the Rudras, I am Lord Shiva, of the Yaksas and Raksasas I am Kuvera, of the Vasus I am Agni and of the mountains I am Meru." 

 

God is omnipresent. Hinduism counts 100 million Gods, which makes it easier for anyone to pray to whom he/she wants. 

Children pray to Lord Ganesha, mothers pray to ma Durga and single girls pray to Lord Shiva. 

 

My message is: pray to the deity that gives you the best feeling and makes you the strongest. 

 

Om namah shivaya

 

R