Supremacy of Visnu

Ganeshprasad · April 1, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Re

(((Since people ask silly questions without putting real effort to know Devi Sukta, I thought to post the verses fully and request Ganeshprasad and others to fully read and try to get the real meaning out.)

thank you the more I read the silly I get, what is the real meaning? Devi sukta in my shallow understanding is all about shakti and how she travels. the three predominate shakti are to creat to suatain and to destroy and we all know who the three Devis are, only in the form of shakti they may travel with other devas it would be scralige to think othrerwise.

Re

(aháM rudrébhir vásubhish caraamy ahám aadityaír utá vishvádevaiH

ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá

10.125.01 I proceed with the Rudras, with the Vasus, with the A_dityas, and with the Vis'vedeva_s; I support both Mitra and Varun.a, Agni and Indra, and the two As'vins.

In the above verse bibharmy means to carry or support.

Also caraamy means to pervade, to go along etc.

Note the use of bibharmy ie to bear or to support. The intended meaning of the whole verse is therefore to have power over all these devatas. Only the more powerful can bear the powerful. therefore this verse implies superior strength of Devi and advaita has no place here.)))

Yes I see it quite clearly bibharmy, only you fail to see it says ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá I support both Mitra and Varun.a, Agni and Indra, and the two As'vins.Talk about honesty, where does it say power over all Devtas?

She says caraamy( means gati, to travel) with rudras and Others. And in answer to my earlier question I asked in which form does she travel, your first answer was power of course, and this is what you said now and I quote, Lakshmi travels as Lakshmi always. There is no verse to suggest otherwise and doing so would be artificial and a lie.unquote. which one is correct? So my friend tell me what is she doing traveling with rudras and company? You also mentioned when it says rudras Rudra deva is not there or adityas Vishnu is not there and I understand why now, because you want to believe, for obvious reason, Vishnu is not mention in this sukta.But Krishna say Bg [Ch.10 Text 21]: Of the Adityas I am Visnu, Ch.10 Text 23]: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; why should I believe what you say?

Re

(((aháM sómam aahanásam bibharmy aháM tváSTaaram utá puuSáNam bhágam

aháM dadhaami dráviNaM havíSmate supraavyè yájamaanaaya sunvaté

10.125.02 I support the foe-destroying Soma, Tvas.t.a_, Pu_s.an and Bhaga; I bestow wealth upon the institutor of the rite offering the oblation, deserving of careful protection, pouring forth the libation.

Note the words aháM dadhaami dráviNaM. It means "I bestow wealth". Again Devi makes show of HER power over somebody.

aháM raáSTrii saMgámanii vásuunaaM cikitúSii prathamaá yajñíyaanaam

taám maa devaá vy àdadhuH purutraá bhuúristhaatraam bhuúry aavesháyantiim

10.125.03 I am the sovereign queen, the collectress of treasures, cognizant (of the Supreme Being), the chief of objects of worship; as such the gods have put me in many places, abiding in manifold conditions, entering into numerous forms.

Again Devi explicitly tells that SHE is the sovereign ruler(queen). The sanskrit word is raáSTrii. Again power over some beings.

The second part where DEVI is the chief of objects of worship for even the gods is explained. SHE says that Devatas have put her in many places ie devatas have created or established places of worship with Devi as the Deity.

máyaa só ánnam atti yó vipáshyati yáH praáNiti yá iiM shRNóty uktám

amantávo maáM tá úpa kSiyanti shrudhí shruta shraddhiváM te vadaami

10.125.04 He who eats food (eats) through me; he who sees, who breathes, who hears what is spoken, does so through me; those who are ignorant of me perish; hear you who have hearing, I tell that which is deserving of belief.)))

Yaa Devi Sarvabhuteshu Maatri Rupena Sanstitha

Namastasyei (3) Namo Namah

Now read this

based on Sa_yan.a and Wilson

Rigveda Sam.hita_: Mandala 1

1.003.10 May Sarasvati_, the purifier, the bestower of food, the recompenser of worship with wealth, be attracted by our offered viands to our rite. [sarasvati_ = va_g-devata_, divinity of speech].

1.003.11 Sarasvati_, the inspirer of those who delight in truth, the instructress of the right-minded, has accepted our sacrifice.

1.003.12 Sarasvati_, makes manifest by her acts a mighty river, and (in her own form) enlightens all understandings. [sarasvati_ is the river in this hymn: dvividha_ hi sarasvati_ vigrahavaddevata_ nadi_ru_pa_ ca, tatra sarasvati_tyetasya nadi_vaddevata_vacca nigama_ bhavanti (Nirukta 2.23)].

Now I am not saying like you do that this is conclusive proof that this is only Mata Sarasvati spoken off in VAC because I am firm believer of trinity so all the devis must travel in the form of sakti with their respective partners, it is not as if Devi in her personal form of Laxmi bent the bow for Rudra that does not make sense but Rudra deva bends it with his sakti and we all know who she is.

Re

(ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH

yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám

10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a sage. )

What is not so evident as you like to put is that she is creating any being, she is saying whom I Kamaye(love or desire or wish) make Ugra (mighty, fearful) not Rudra he is self dependent un born undecaying,

tam a priest rishi or a wiseman.

It make sense to make some one mighty

Re

(10.125.07 I bring forth the paternal (heaven) upon the brow of this (Supreme Being)(Moksha is meant here), my birthplace is in the midst of the waters; from thence I spread through all beings, and touch this heaven with my body.)

I am not convinced by your answers, who the devi is and who is the father.

Truth is far from being monopoly of any one.

Jai Shree Krishna

April 1, 2005

Ishhh. Sad.

This fellow has gone out of mind.

Now He says his earlier translation was wrong and gives a new translation as below.

************************

aháM rudraáya dhánur aá tanomi brahmAdvíSe shárave hántavaá u

aháM jánaaya samádaM kRNomy aháM dyaávaapRthivií aá vivesha

Right translation :

I bend the bow(dhánur) and hurl arrows(shárave) towards(aá tanomi) RudrA, the one who insulted BrahmA(brahmAdvíSe), in order to slay him(hántavaá u). I wage war with (hostile) beings (jánaaya means any living being). I pervade heaven and earth.

********************************

So, whatever He said based on his earlier translation (which he defended page after page) were all wrong.

Devi actually slays Rudra. And now he is absolutely correct. He proves it with grammar.

And he says "Therefore it is clear that Devi is referring to slaying of RudrA here. "

III.2 Svet Up.

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

The Self has been slain. The atma has been slain.

Well it is time to send him to a doctor.

Moderator are you listening? Please stop these posts by guests.

April 1, 2005

He has imperial power over heavenly beings and he is prayed so that his bright arrow (AgnaVishnu) does not injure.

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

2 He through his lordship thinks in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Please come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome You (O Rudra), and heal all sickness, in our families.

3 May thy bright arrow which, shot down by thee from heaven, flieth upon the earth, pass us uninjured by. Thou, very gracious God, bast thousand medicines: inflict no evil on our sons or progeny.

You have made an exhibit of yourself. I genuinely think you need some rest.

Emotional statements who cannot make a logical case for himself.

The case of Tripura is clearly mentioned in Puranas as well. Besides the quoted verses does not support the idea that Rudra uses other devatas as weapons. It is your imagination.

The case of Tripura is an isolated case where Rudra needed the help of Lord Visnu. This is stated in puranas clearly.

April 1, 2005

She says caraamy( means gati, to travel) with rudras and Others. And in answer to my earlier question I asked in which form does she travel, your first answer was power of course, and this is what you said now and I quote, Lakshmi travels as Lakshmi always. There is no verse to suggest otherwise and doing so would be artificial and a lie.unquote. which one is correct? So my friend tell me what is she doing traveling with rudras and company? You also mentioned when it says rudras Rudra deva is not there or adityas Vishnu is not there and I understand why now, because you want to believe, for obvious reason, Vishnu is not mention in this sukta.But Krishna say Bg [Ch.10 Text 21]: Of the Adityas I am Visnu, Ch.10 Text 23]: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva; why should I believe what you say?

You are a confused man.

Caraamy means travels with or also pervades them.

You asked what is Devi doing travelling with Rudras ?

DEVI is travelling with Rudras as with any other Devata in order to support them all. This is the import. Is it so difficult to understand this simple meaning Devi is bringing through the verses.

No wonder you advaities lost all capacity to understand through your wrong knowledge. Thorw away this false understanding called Advaita from your minds and you would understand verses clearly.

As for Gita verses, Lord Krishna is saying I am the real Rudra, who is antaryami of the Deity Rudra, pati of Uma. Lord Krishna is talking about HIS glories.

Finally Krishna says that whatever glory you see in the universe, it is because of ME. Lord Krishna enables deities like Rudra to be Rudra.

Now I am not saying like you do that this is conclusive proof that this is only Mata Sarasvati spoken off in VAC because I am firm believer of trinity so all the devis must travel in the form of sakti with their respective partners, it is not as if Devi in her personal form of Laxmi bent the bow for Rudra that does not make sense but Rudra deva bends it with his sakti and we all know who she is.

The reason that Ambrani Sukta does not refer to Sarasvati is clear from that Sukta only. Devi creates BrahmA too. So obviously it is not Sarasvati.

Rest about trinity etc. is based on faulty unVedic knowledge.

What is not so evident as you like to put is that she is creating any being, she is saying whom I Kamaye(love or desire or wish) make Ugra (mighty, fearful) not Rudra he is self dependent un born undecaying, tam a priest rishi or a wiseman.

If Rudra is self-dependent and does not worship anybody, then why in Yajur Veda is Rudra Deva asking for a VaRAfrom devatas o be pasupati. No logical answer has come out.

Only emotional statements from Atanu.

Svetasvatara will be explained for Atanu.

I am not convinced by your answers, who the devi is and who is the father.

Truth is far from being monopoly of any one.

Jai Shree Krishna

What do you mean you are not convinced. Why ?

The word is pitAram. It means ancestors or fathers.

BrahmA is an ancestor of all created beings. So is Manu, Rudra, prajapatis etc. So it could refer to any one of them

muurdhAn means highest point. It could mean moksha or Satya Loka which is the highest point on meru mountain.

So the verse could mean Devi provides Moksha to our ancestors like BrahmA, RudrA, manus, Rsis, Prajapatis

or

Devi gave birth to BrahmA in Satya loka or Brahma lokA.

If you cannot understand then it is useless for me to argue with you guys. Please do not make a trash out of this post.

April 2, 2005

So, whatever He said based on his earlier translation (which he defended page after page) were all wrong.

Devi actually slays Rudra. And now he is absolutely correct. He proves it with grammar.

And he says "Therefore it is clear that Devi is referring to slaying of RudrA here. "

No. Not everything is wrong. Just that particular verse.

Do you have any point to make through grammar. I don't think so.

III.2 Svet Up.

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

What makes you think in Svetasvartara upanishad mentions about Rudra, the deity.

Just because the word RUDRA appears in upanishads, it does not mean so. There is not single evidence in the whole upanishad with distictive marks of the deity called Rudra ie umapati.

There is enough indirect evidence to show that it is Visnu reffered here.

1. In this same upanishad one finds reference to this BEING called Rudra as creator of virAt ie hiranyagarbhA(chaturmukha BrahmA).

4:12

"He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!"

Puranas mention clearly that Visnu created BrahmA through HIS navel.

2. The next verse of the same upanishad talks about this BEING having eyes and arms everywhere.

3:3

"His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester."

If one has read Purusa SuktA, we can see that it is Lord Visnu who is mentioned in this SuktA with exactly the same words. Also Visnu is identified in Purusa SuktA as Lord of Sri, so that there is no doubt as to the identity of the Being of Purusa SuktA.

So it is clear the BEING of SvetasvatAra upanishad is actually Lord Visnu.

April 2, 2005

I asked: Show us where is this said? Where it is said that Rudra was much affected and Vayu was not as much affected. There was no reply.

Material taken from this website:

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_50/msg00033.html

Here is the reference from Mahabharatha.

sa tat.h pibat.h kaNThagatena tena

nipAtito mUrchchhita Ashu rudraH |

hareH karasparshabalAt.h sa saJNj~nA/-

mavApa nIlo.asya gaLastadA.a.asIt.h || MBTN X-15||

sa = he (Shiva); tat.h = that (hAlAhala poison); pibat.h =

drank; kaNThagatena tena = by the poison that went to the throat;

rudraH = Rudra; Ashu = quickly(instantly); mUrchchhita = becoming

unconscious; nipAtitaH = fell; hareH karasparshabalAt.h = from the

strength of the touch of Sri Hari's hands; sa = Rudra;

saJNj~nAm avApa = gained consciousness; tadA = then; asya = his;

galaH = throat; nIlaH AsIt.h = became blue.

Shiva drank that hAlAhala poison and by the vigor of that

poison, [which was just sufficient to go] upto the throat, he

fell unconscious. He regained his consciousness by the strength

of the touch of Sri Hari's hands. Then his throat turned blue

from the effect of the poison.

In R^igveda (vAyusUkta), it is said:

"vAyurasmA upAmanthat.h pinashhTismA kunannamA |

keshI vishhasya pAtreNa yad.hrudreNApibat.hsaha ||"

vAyuH = Vayu; asmA = asmai = for him (for Shiva);

upAmanthat.h = squeezed well (that poison); pinashhTismA =

kneaded and crushed; kunannamA = evil punisher (vAyu);

keshI = who has the Lord's sannidhAna; vishhasya pAtreNa =

with the vessel full of poison; yad.h = which; rudreNa saha =

along with Rudra; apibat.h = drank.

Vayu squeezed, kneaded and crushed [a small portion] of the

poison for Shiva and drank the poison along with Shiva.

Note the usages:

rudreNa saha = along with Rudra. So Vayu is the main consumer

of the poison. Rudra is a secondary partcipant.

Vayu drank the fully potent poison, but gave the crushed

and weakened small portion of the poison to Shiva.

Vayu means "one who keeps moving". Thus poison had no

effect on him and he keeps moving with ease. "rudra"

means "one who cried (rodanAt.h rudraH)". After drinking

the diluted small quantity poison, he cried (unable to

bear it).

keshi -> ka = sukharUpi; Isha = Lord;

sukharUpa IshaH asmin.h asti it keshI = Lord, Who is

personiication of bliss is in MukhyaprANa and so Vayu

is known as keshI. (He sees the Lord inside him).

Hence, even after consuming the poison, he was happy only.

Though all this speaks the glory of Vayu, it is by no

means diminishing the greatness of Shiva. The intensity

of poison is such that mere sight of it was deadly.

Thus Shiva is held high by all the gods, below him and

all others downward upto the mortals.

April 2, 2005

The above reference was from Mahabharatha tatparya nirnaya(AchAryA Madhva's work) and not Mahabharatha. Although this may not be a good reference for non-dvaitis, none the less the explanation for Sruti verses is clear.

What is significant is the esplanation that Vayu is the PRIME subject of Sruti with Rudra being a SahA, meaning only a side participator.

There are some verses from PurAnA as well cited in the same website. As I do not have copies of all those purAnAs I give the website as reference.

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_50/msg00063.html

The

Brahmanda purANA says:

taM dR^iShTvA ghorasaN^kAshaM prAdurbhUtaM mahAviSham.h |

dhyAtvA nArAyaNaM devaM hR^idaye garuDadhvajam.h ||

(Seeing that terrible poison emerging, (Shiva) meditated on the Lord Vishnu,

Garudadhvaja, residing in his heart).

Another purANa says:

yena jIrNaM cha garaLaM kaNThasthaM cha kapAlinaH |

antarAtmadhR^itaM tasya hR^idaye garuDadhvaja ||

It is only due to Shiva's meditating on Vishnu, that he was able to digest

the terrible poison, right in his neck.

In Garuda purana, Shiva tells Parvati:

aprakAshamidaM devi guhyAdguhyataraM padam.h |

purAhamabdhimathane patagendraviShAvaham.h |

avadhyaM garalaM ghoramaJNbhujamamR^itaM yathA ||

O Devi, this is not a well known fact. At the time of samudra-mathana,

before consuming poison, I meditated on the Lord. (It is due to his mercy

that ) I was able to drink it as easily as I had the nectar (amR^ita)

This one is well known in the mantra-shAstras:

achyutAnantagovindamantrato.apsu shubhaM param.h |

OM iti sampuTIkR^ityajapanviShadharo.aharat.h ||

Lord Shiva did 'abhimantraNa' of the poison with the most auspicious mantra:

OM achyutAnantagovinda OM' and then consumed the poison.

Another purANa says:

nAmatrayaprabhAvAchcha viShNossarvagatasya vai |

viShaM tadabhavajjIrNaM lokasamhArakAraNam.h |

Due to the chanting of the 'nAmatraya' (three names) of that all-pervading

Vishnu, that terrible poison, which could have destroyed the worlds, was

digested ('jIrNam.h').

Killing of Tripurasura:

In Kurma purana, Vishnu tells Shiva:

tato mAM sharaNaM gatvA prapade nirbhayo bhavAn.h |

ahaM devashuko bhUtvA tripurasthAnaghAtayaM ||

Therefore, having obtained my grace, be fearless. I shall become devashuka

(?) and kill the tripurAsuras.

The Karnaparva of Mahabharata says:

viShNurAtmA bhagavato rudrasyAmitatejasaH |

tasmAddhanurjasaMsparshaM sa viShehe maheshvaraH ||

Due to the Vishnu being Rudra's antaryAmi, the extremely brilliant (tejas)

Rudra was able to touch the bow.

A Smriti says:

"advitIyaM yathAmantraM tArakaM brahmanAmakam.h |

japitvA siddhimApnoti satyaM satyaM vadAmyaham.h |"

imameva japanmantraM tryamabakastripurAntakaH |

Chanting the peerless tArakamantra, which is 'brahmanAmaka' (couldn't get

that), a man obtains 'siddhi'. This is truth.

Chanting this mantra, Lord Shiva killed the tripurAsuras.

April 2, 2005

III.2 Svet Up.

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

In one of my previous posts, I said Rudra in Svetasvatara upanishad actually refers to Lord Visnu.

Here is proof from Sruti for that.

There is a Sukta called Narayana Sukta belonging to Taittiriya Aranyaka (Prapathaka X, Anuvaka 13)

HYMN ON LORD NARAYANA

sahasra shIrshhaM devaM vishvaakshaM vishwashaMbhuvam.h|

vishvaM naaraayaNaM devaM aksharaM paramaM padam.h ||

This universe is the Eternal Being (Narayana), the imperishable, the supreme, the goal, multi-headed and multi-eyed (i.e.,omnipresent and omniscient), the resplendent, the source of delight for the whole universe.

vishvataH paramaannityaM vishvaM naaraayaNaM harim.h |

vishvaM eva idaM purushhaH tadvishvaM upajIvati ||

This universe is pervaded by the Supreme Being (Purusha); hence it subsists on That, the Eternal which transcends it (the Universe) in every way, -the omnipresent Absolute which destroys all sins.

patiM vishvasya aatmaa IshvaraM shaashvataM shivamachyutam.h|

naaraayaNaM mahaaGYeyaM vishvaatmaanaM paraayaNam.h ||

The protector of the universe, the Lord of all Souls (or Lord over Self), the perpetual, the auspicious, the indestructible, the Goal of all creation, the Supreme object worthy of being known, the Soul of all beings, the Refuge

unfailing (is He).

Note the use of words aatmaa IshvaraM ie Lord of all Jivas or individual selves. Advaita is already refuted here.

naaraayaNa paro jyotiraatmaa naaraayaNaH paraH |

naaraayaNa paraM brahma tattwaM naaraayaNaH paraH |

naaraayaNa paro dhyaataa dhyaanaM naaraayaNaH paraH ||

The Lord Narayana is the Supreme Absolute; Narayana is

the Supreme Reality; Narayana is the Supreme Light; Narayana is the Supreme Self; Narayana is the Supreme Meditator; Narayana is the Supreme Meditation.

yachcha ki.nchit.h jagat.h sarvaM dR^ishyate shrUyate.api vaa |

a.ntarbahishcha tatsarvaM vyaapya naaraayaNaH sthitaH ||

Whatever all this universe is, -seen or heard of, -pervading all this from inside and outside alike, stands supreme the Eternal Divine Being (Narayana).

anantaM avyayaM kaviM samudrentaM vishvashaMbhuvam.h |

padma kosha pratIkaashaM hR^idayaM cha apiadhomukham.h ||

He is the Limitless, Imperishable, Omniscient, residing in the ocean, the Cause of the happiness of the universe, the Supreme end of all striving, (manifesting Himself) in the ether of the heart which is comparable to an inverted bud of the lotus flower.

Note the use of resident of ocean ie samudrentaM. This shows a clear sign that this BEING called NARAYANA is Lord Visnu, resident of ocean, Lord of Lakshmi. This confirms again Ambrani Sukta quoted before where Devi says HER birth place is in Samudra(ocean), which confirms DEVI is Lakshmi.

adho nishhThyaa vitastyaante naabhyaam upari tishhThati |

jvaalaamaalaakulaM bhaatI vishvasyaayatanaM mahat.h ||

Below the Adams apple, at a distance of a span, and above the navel (i.e., the heart which is the seat of the manifestation of Pure Consciousness in the human being), effulges the Great Abode of the universe(ie NArAyanA), as if adorned with garlands of flames.

santataM shilaabhistu lambatyaa koshasannibham.h |

tasyaante sushhira.n sUkshmaM tasmin sarvaM pratishhThitam.h ||

Surrounded on all sides by nerve-currents (or arteries), suspends the lotus-bud of the heart in an inverted position. It is in a subtle space (a narrow aperture, the Sushumna-Nadi), and therein is to be found the Substratum of all things.

tasya madhye mahaanagniH vishvaarchiH vishvato mukhaH |

so.agravibhaja.ntishhThan aahaaraM ajaraH kaviH ||

In that space within the heart resides the Great Flaming Fire, undecaying, all-knowing, with tongues spread out in all directions, with faces turned everywhere, consuming food presented before it, and assimilating it unto itself.

Look at the similarity to verses in Svetasvatara upanishad ie eyes everywhere, fces everywhere etc.

tiryagUrdhvamadhashshaayI rashmayaH tasya santataa |

santaapayati svaM dehamaapaadatalamaastakaH |

tasya madhye vahnishikhaa aNIyordhvaa vyavasthitaaH ||

His rays, spreading all around, side ways as well as above and below, warm up the whole body from head to foot. In the center of That (Flame) abides the Tongue of Fire as the topmost of all subtle things.

niilatoyada-madhyastha-dvidyullekheva bhaasvaraa |

nIvaarashUkavattanvI pItaa bhaasvatyaNUpamaa ||

Brilliant like a streak of lightning set in the midst of the blue rain-bearing clouds, slender like the awn of a paddy grain, yellow (like gold) in colour, in subtlety comparable to the minute atom, (this Tongue of Fire) grows splendid.

tasyaaH shikhaayaa madhye paramaatmaa vyavasthitaH |

sa brahma sa shivaH sa hariH sa indraH so.aksharaH paramaH swaraaT.h ||

In the Middle of That Flame, the Supreme Self dwells. This (Self) is Brahma (the Creator), Siva (the Destroyer), Hari (the Protector), Indra (the Ruler), the Imperishable, the Absolute, the Autonomous Being. Prostrations again and again to the Omni-Formed Being, the Truth, the Law, the Supreme Absolute, the Purusha of blue-decked yellow hue, the Centralised-Force, Power, the All-Seeing One.

Remember that in one of the previous verses, it was explained that this Supreme BEING is the resident of ocean. So there is no doubt HE is Lord Visnu. Now in this verse it is eplained that HE is BrahmA, Shiva, Hari, Indra etc. This does not imply Advaita theory here, as in another previous verse only we have this BEING explained as aatmaa IshvaraM ie Lord of all individual selves. So the only conclusion is that Lord Visnu(resident of ocean) is addressed by all these names like RudrA, BrahmA, Indra etc. This supports clearly my point that in svetasvatara upanishad, it is actually Lord Visnu is addressed as RudrA.

R^itaM satyaM paraM brahma purushhaM kR^ishhNa pi~Ngalam.h|

UrdhvaretaM virUpaakshaM vishvarUpaaya vai namo namaH ||

Prostrations again and again to the Omni-Formed Being, the Truth, the Law, the Supreme Absolute, the Purusha of blue-decked yellow hue, the Centralised-Force, Power, the All-Seeing One.

OM naaraayaNaaya vidmahe vaasudevaaya dhImahi |

tanno vishhNuH prachodayaat.h ||

We commune ourselves with Narayana, and meditate on Vasudeva, may that Vishnu direct us (to the Great Goal).

OM shaa.nti shaa.nti shaa.ntiH ||

Om. May there be Peace, Peace, Peace

April 2, 2005

On convoluted people try to compare Gods waste their energy in trying to prove who is greater.

In this process you will sure to be out of favour of everyone.

Bhagawat Gita says which ever path you take whomsoever you worship you will come to me ....Sri Krishna.

Rama said to Hanumana ... "O Hanumama (read Shiva) I can't even face you because I am so indebted to your help to me".

What are your guys... get some life!

April 2, 2005

III.2 Svet Up.

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second

Purusha Sukta

patiM vishvasya aatmaa IshvaraM shaashvataM shivamachyutam.h|naaraayaNaM mahaaGYeyaM vishvaatmaanaM paraayaNam.h ||

The protector of the universe, the Lord of all Souls (or Lord over Self), the perpetual, the auspicious, the indestructible, -------

You are foolish. You think that you only know Purusha Sukta. Purusha Sukta is chanted alongwith Rudram.

patiM vishvasya aatmaa IshvaraM shaashvataM shivamachyutam.

" shivamachyutam."

The Shivam, Achyutam, The Rudra, The Mahesvara -- The ONE.

Like a foolish person you say Samundra and therefore Vishnu and Lakshmi. You are truly not mature. Is God restricted to Samundra.

adho nishhThyaa vitastyaante naabhyaam upari tishhThati |

jvaalaamaalaakulaM bhaatI vishvasyaayatanaM mahat.h ||

Below the Adams apple, at a distance of a span, and above the navel (i.e., the heart which is the seat of the manifestation of Pure Consciousness in the human being), effulges the Great Abode of the universe(ie NArAyanA), as if adorned with garlands of flames.

This Samundra is within -- the consciousness, the Self, the Atma.

And the Lord as in Svet. and in Purusha Suktam are the same. Vishnu, Brahma, and Mahesh are are His manifestation but he is Tryambaka -- the great Lord, The Mahesvara.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death (Maha Narayana Upanishad).

When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

Bhagavatam

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

31. O Lord Girisa, since you are transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where You are. You are not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered;

Om Nama Shivaya

April 2, 2005

On convoluted people try to compare Gods waste their energy in trying to prove who is greater.

Proclaiming the truth of Vedas is not convoluted. Only convoluted people say such things. Please read the evidences I provided and try to discern the Truth.

In this process you will sure to be out of favour of everyone.

Good to be out of favor of convoluted people.

Bhagawat Gita says which ever path you take whomsoever you worship you will come to me ....Sri Krishna.

Bhagavan Krishna says quite the opposite.

Krushna says that those who worship Devatas go to Devatas, those who worship ghists go to the ghosts, those who worship ancstors go to the ancestors, but only those who worship HIM, go to HIM ie only they attain moksha.

Some foolish people do not read anything and write nonsense and hearsay.

Rama said to Hanumana ... "O Hanumama (read Shiva) I can't even face you because I am so indebted to your help to me".

What are your guys... get some life!

Sruti is the first pramAnA. This means that portions of ithasa and Purana that do not agree with Srutis are rejected.

I will proclaim TRUTH anywhere and VISNU is supreme. Rudra, BrahmA and every other GOD worship Visnu.

April 2, 2005

As per your convenience.

You quote Madhava's verses as Mahabharata. All your quotes are such only.

April 2, 2005

I repeat the earlier post

Guest says his earlier translation was wrong and gives a new translation as below.

************************

aháM rudraáya dhánur aá tanomi brahmAdvíSe shárave hántavaá u

aháM jánaaya samádaM kRNomy aháM dyaávaapRthivií aá vivesha

Right translation :

I bend the bow(dhánur) and hurl arrows(shárave) towards(aá tanomi) RudrA, the one who insulted BrahmA(brahmAdvíSe), in order to slay him(hántavaá u). I wage war with (hostile) beings (jánaaya means any living being). I pervade heaven and earth.

********************************

So, whatever He said earlier (which he defended page after page) were all based on the wrong translation.

Devi actually slays Rudra. And now he is absolutely correct. He proves it with grammar.

And he says "Therefore it is clear that Devi is referring to slaying of RudrA here. "

III.2 Svet Up.

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

The Self has been slain. The atma has been slain.

Well it is time to send him to a doctor.

April 2, 2005

Your shouting will not change anything.

*********

will proclaim TRUTH anywhere and VISNU is supreme. Rudra, BrahmA and every other GOD worship Visnu.

*********

Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9.

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma.

April 2, 2005

You are foolish. You think that you only know Purusha Sukta. Purusha Sukta is chanted alongwith Rudram.

patiM vishvasya aatmaa IshvaraM shaashvataM shivamachyutam.

" shivamachyutam."

The Shivam, Achyutam, The Rudra, The Mahesvara -- The ONE.

Your foolishness has come out. The Sukta itself is called NArAyana sUktA. The whole verse consists of so many words like Narayana, Visnu, Vasudeva etc repeated so many times. But it appears that your silly and stupified intelligence is just searching for the name Rudra or Shiva and that is it. Besides AchtutA is a name of Narayana ie Visnu, not umapati.

What about the important distinguishing factor ie residing in ocean samudrentam.

What makes you think just the use of the word Shiva always refers to umapati.

Atanu, you are really one dull minded fool, incapable of understanding any logic.

Like a foolish person you say Samundra and therefore Vishnu and Lakshmi. You are truly not mature. Is God restricted to Samundra.

NArAyanA is not restricted to SamudrA, but SamudrA is the distinguishing mark used in Vedas particularly to identify Lord VISNU. Any sane [erson with some iota of intelligence can understand thi very easily, but I think I expect too mmuch from you.

RudrA, umapati, is not referred here.

This Samundra is within -- the consciousness, the Self, the Atma.

In this SuktA, we have NArAyanA explained as Atma IshvarA, meaning Lord of individual Selves.

Second the translation of samudrentam means "residing in ocean", not anything close to your fake, made up explanation.

Atanu, your capacity to logically argue is zero.

And the Lord as in Svet. and in Purusha Suktam are the same. Vishnu, Brahma, and Mahesh are are His manifestation but he is Tryambaka -- the great Lord, The Mahesvara.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

Well this proves nothing. Lord Shiva obtained a boon from Rama. The rst is given below to show why Lord Shiva has this capacity to offer moksha.

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_51/msg00065.html

he Jabalishruti and Ramopanishad make it clear that

Shiva gives the upadesha of tAraka-brahma mantra to his departing devotee:

jantoH prANeShUtkramamANeShu rudrastArakabrahmamantraM vyAchaShTe |

yenAsAvamR^itIbhUtvA moxI bhavatI |

Thus the Kashi kshetra being capable of giving moksha is primarily due to Shiva's upadesha of 'tAraka-brahma-mantra'. Details on the 'tAraka-brahma-mantra' and the deity propounded by that mantra can be found in the same upaniShad. It informs us of Shiva doing penance of Shri Rama

mantra for thousands of manvantaras. Pleased with that, Sri Rama asks Shiva to choose a boon. Then Shiva requests Shri Rama to grant a boon that whoever (any 'jantu') dies in kAshI should be given mukti. Granting the boon, Shri

Rama says that I shall be 'sannihita' in every rock and stone of Kashi. Whosoever you wish to liberate, give the upadesha of 'my mantra' in his left ear. That Jiva shall be liberated.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death

The correct translation is "Salutatins to Rudra and to Visnu".

The rest is all inserted and made up to extend meaningless conclusions.

Besides in this Upanishad all devatas are prayed to, including RudrA and the Supreme Lord Visnu. That is all.

If one reads maha Narayana Upanishad from the begining it will be clear as I explained.

The rest is all nonsense. I am not going to answer meaningless questions.

April 2, 2005

You quote Madhava's verses as Mahabharata. All your quotes are such only.

The mistake was recognozed by me in the very next post.

So you are hiding behind this pathetic excuse for lack of logic arguments.

Why not reag the keshi Sukta whereit is clearly explained that Vayu had to grind and churn the poison for Rudra DevA(since RudrA could not do that) and Vayu drinking a major portion of poison.

This is clear from the Sruti, where Rudra is merely mentioned as a secondary oarticipant(ie as sahA).

No answer for that. Only useless comments from a emotionally disturbed guy.

April 2, 2005

I repeat the earlier post

You lost it Atanu. Go home. This is all you can do. Repeat like a parrot after being throughly defeated.

It was proven through Svetasvatara Upanishad, through NArAyana SuktA and Purusa SUktA that NArAyanA, Lord of Lakshmi is the Suprme Being.

Besides Purusa SUktA explicitly identifies the Being as Lord of hree and Lakshmi. This isnone other than Lord Visnu(Resident of ocean). This is the distinguihing mark of Visnu alone.

Your shouting will not change anything.

Again repetion of posts. This guy has no more points and cannot agree to that due to his EGO and emtional state of mind.

Anyway here is the coorect explanation of Yajur Veda 4:5:9

agnér bhAgo asi dikshasya Adhipatyam ........

índrasya bhAgo asi viSNor Adhipatyam ........

The nouns Agni, diksha, indrA, and Visno are all in genitive case. All of them indicate possession of quality or someone or something.

So in this case "indrasya bhago" means portion belonging to IndrA.

Similarly "visnor Adhipatyam" means "overlordship or the sovereign rulership that belongs to Visnu".

So the verse as a whole goes like this.

Indra's portion is the sovereign power belonging to Visnu.

This is most prbably alluding to vAmana avatara granting three paces of land to IndrA.

similarly the previous verse is

Agni's portion is the sovereign power that belongs to Abhimani Devatas of directions(DikshA)

April 2, 2005

********

The correct translation is "Salutatins to Rudra and to Visnu".

*********

As always Lord takes care when you proclaim something as correct translation.

There is no word such as "Salutatins".

These are your translations and obviously wrong.

When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

Bhagavatam

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

31. O Lord Girisa, since your effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

*************

Atanu, your capacity to logically argue is zero.

In reply to:

--

And the Lord as in Svet. and in Purusha Suktam are the same. Vishnu, Brahma, and Mahesh are are His manifestation but he is Tryambaka -- the great Lord, The Mahesvara.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

--

Well this proves nothing. Lord Shiva obtained a boon from Rama. The rst is given below to show why Lord Shiva has this capacity to offer moksha.

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_51/msg00065.html

he Jabalishruti and Ramopanishad make it clear that

Shiva gives the upadesha of tAraka-brahma mantra to his departing devotee:

jantoH prANeShUtkramamANeShu rudrastArakabrahmamantraM vyAchaShTe |

yenAsAvamR^itIbhUtvA moxI bhavatI |

**************

Well Rig Veda proves nothing. But your unknown Upanishads tell everything?

Do not give us what is not in Vedas. You understand? You are well known to alter scriptures as per your convenience. Purusha Suktam contains what is not there in Rig Veda. Everyone knows that. Do not expose yourself.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

For you I have one verse:

YV ii. 6. 8.

The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.'

Ganeshprasad · April 2, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Re

(You are a confused man.

Caraamy means travels with or also pervades them.)

Well we will see who is confused, if she is traveling with the devas that would be in her personal form and if she is pervading then it has to be in the form of shakti. But you said and I quote ( Lakshmi travels as Lakshmi always. There is no verse to suggest otherwise and doing so would be artificial and a lie.)

The verse clearly states who she support and who she travel with, so be honest and give the true meaning, but I don’t expect that from you, you are simply blinded by following your narrow minded school of thought.

Re

(DEVI is travelling with Rudras as with any other Devata in order to support them all. This is the import. Is it so difficult to understand this simple meaning Devi is bringing through the verses. )

I am finding difficult to understand your logic if you are traveling with someone is it for company is it for friendship does that mean you hold power over them?

Re

(No wonder you advaities lost all capacity to understand through your wrong knowledge. Thorw away this false understanding called Advaita from your minds and you would understand verses clearly.)

Calling names like incompetent, silly, Advaita (insult to Sankrachrya) will not make you understand the truth or win any argument, and it will only bring disrepute to your own following.

Re

(As for Gita verses, Lord Krishna is saying I am the real Rudra, who is antaryami of the Deity Rudra, pati of Uma. Lord Krishna is talking about HIS glories. )

First Lord Krishna is responding to Arjun’s Request how may I worship you in different form of yours? According to you Krishna is real Rudra and Uma pati Shankar is pretender wow.

Is Krishna separate from his glories?

Re

(Finally Krishna says that whatever glory you see in the universe, it is because of ME. Lord Krishna enables deities like Rudra to be Rudra.)

No Krishna says

adityanam aham visnur

jyotisam ravir amsuman

maricir marutam asmi

naksatranam aham sasi

rudranam sankaras casmi

vitteso yaksa-raksasam

vasunam pavakas casmi

meruh sikharinam aham

Re

(The reason that Ambrani Sukta does not refer to Sarasvati is clear from that Sukta only. Devi creates BrahmA too. So obviously it is not Sarasvati. )

Not so obvious, it is your imagination only.

I could use the same argument and it is devi Sarsvati and therefore like every one who translate this verse like so, make sense, I Kamaye(love or desire or wish) make Ugra (mighty, fearful) not Rudra he is self dependent, a priest(Brahma) (not ChaturMukh Brahma) or wise. She is not talking about creating or manifesting Ugra Brahma oR rishi.

If you ask any one who is predominate deity of speech (Vac) even a novice will be able to tell you it is Mata Sharsvati

1.003.10 May Sarasvati_, the purifier, the bestower of food, the recompenser of worship with wealth, be attracted by our offered viands to our rite. [sarasvati_ = va_g-devata_, divinity of speech].

1.003.11 Sarasvati_, the inspirer of those who delight in truth, the instructress of the right-minded, has accepted our sacrifice.

1.003.12 Sarasvati_, makes manifest by her acts a mighty river, and (in her own form) enlightens all understandings. [sarasvati_ is the river in this hymn: dvividha_ hi sarasvati_ vigrahavaddevata_ nadi_ru_pa_ ca, tatra sarasvati_tyetasya nadi_vaddevata_vacca nigama_ bhavanti (Nirukta 2.23)]

Re

(Rest about trinity etc. is based on faulty unVedic knowledge.)

Well if the lord does not create, maintain and destroy I do not know of anyone else who can.

tasyaaH shikhaayaa madhye paramaatmaa vyavasthitaH |

sa brahma sa shivaH sa hariH sa indraH so.aksharaH paramaH swaraaT.h ||

In the Middle of That Flame, the Supreme Self dwells. This (Self) is Brahma (the Creator), Siva (the Destroyer), Hari (the Protector), Indra (the Ruler), the Imperishable, the Absolute, the Autonomous Being. Prostrations again and again to the Omni-Formed Being, the Truth, the Law, the Supreme Absolute, the Purusha of blue-decked yellow hue, the Centralised-Force, Power, the All-Seeing One.

Let this be the fault in me to think the lord is one without a second who create maintain and destruct to bring forth the creation again.

Re

(If Rudra is self-dependent and does not worship anybody, then why in Yajur Veda is Rudra Deva asking for a VaRAfrom devatas o be pasupati. No logical answer has come out. )

I never quoted any thing about worship but since you bring it Read the purans all the devtas

are worshiping each other, they even conspire to kill the asuras, and when it get difficult they pray to Durga to kill certain demons, why don’t you read Markand puran there is a nice devi lila in there.

Why did Krishna go to Gurukul? Such questions are irrelevant because they are only asked to make them look small and if that is the intention then the truth will escape us, even if it stares in our face.

Re

(What do you mean you are not convinced. Why ?

The word is pitAram. It means ancestors or fathers.

BrahmA is an ancestor of all created beings. So is Manu, Rudra, prajapatis etc. So it could refer to any one of them

muurdhAn means highest point. It could mean moksha or Satya Loka which is the highest point on meru mountain.

So the verse could mean Devi provides Moksha to our ancestors like BrahmA, RudrA, manus, Rsis, Prajapatis

or

Devi gave birth to BrahmA in Satya loka or Brahma lokA.

If you cannot understand then it is useless for me to argue with you guys. Please do not make a trash out of this post.)

Still not convinced you are stating your opinion and if it is” the devi “who gave birth to Brahma, then what it she doing saying I bring forth the father.

Jai Shree Krishna

April 2, 2005

The Coorect translation again.

****************

Anyway here is the coorect explanation of Yajur Veda 4:5:9

agnér bhAgo asi dikshasya Adhipatyam ........

índrasya bhAgo asi viSNor Adhipatyam ........

The nouns Agni, diksha, indrA, and Visno are all in genitive case. All of them indicate possession of quality or someone or something.

So in this case "indrasya bhago" means portion belonging to IndrA.

Similarly "visnor Adhipatyam" means "overlordship or the sovereign rulership that belongs to Visnu".

So the verse as a whole goes like this.

**************

See. Time and again Vak fails you, whenever you lie. What you have given is ‘coorect’ translation and correct. See for yourself above your coorect translation.

This fellow is reckless. He will do anything. The correct translation remains as below:

YV iv. 3. 9.

a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma.

b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteenfold Stoma.

----------

e Thou art the portion of Aditi, the overlordship of Pusan, force saved, the twenty-sevenfold Stoma.

-----

g Thou art the portion of the Adityas, the overlordship of the Maruts, offspring saved, the twenty-fivefold Stoma.

Else friends, Maruts become overlord of Adityas. And Pusan becomes overlord of Aditi. What foolishness.

Untruth can never become the truth despite zealous attempts.

Moreover, it is not Yajur Veda 4:5:9 but Yajur Veda 4:3:9 that you have referred.

And Yajur Veda iv. 5. 9. is as below, the Sata Rudriyam part. Your lies take us to the correct verse.

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods.

s Homage to the unconquerable.

---------

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods.

s Homage to the unconquerable.

----------

It is hallmark of this reckless fabricator to alter scriptures without seeing the whole. And in the process He makes Maruts the Lords of Adityas. Be it so. It suits him well.

Thus it is said Prajanam Brahman. One who does not know the Self as Pragnya and the Supreme Lord, does not know anything, and parades himself exposed with Avidya.

Om Namah Sivayya

April 2, 2005

Narayana is the abode of Nara. This term was later introduced but the truth cannot be hidden. This is the real Narayana -- the consciousness, the Self.

Book 7 HYMN CI. Parjanya.

1 SPEAK forth three words, the words which light preceded, which milk this udder that produceth nectar. Quickly made manifest, the Bull hath bellowed, engendering the germ of plants, the Infant.

------

4 In him all living creatures have their being, and the three heavens with triply flowing waters. Three reservoirs that sprinkle down their treasure shed their sweet streams around him with a murmur.

---------

6 He is the Bull of all, and their impregner lie holds the life of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods,

In Lord Pragnya (Bhava) all creatures and heavens and all waters exist. He speaks the VAK.

YV iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

And now see the Purusa hymn also.

This is Purusa Suktam. Where is Vishnu mentioned? Where is Lakshmi mentioned? These are all later additions of zealots.

For others, I wish to point out something.

“5 From him Viraj was born; again Purusa from Viraj was born.” Gods that we fight about are cyclically born from one another.

------------------

RV Book 10 HYMN 90 Purusa.

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet.

On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

2 This Purusa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be;

The Lord of Immortality which waxes greater still by food.

3 So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Purusa.

All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

4 With three-fourths Purusa went up: onefourth of him again was here.

Thence he strode out to every side over what cats not and what cats.

5 From him Viraj was born; again Purusa from Viraj was born.

As soon as he was born he spread eastward and westward o'er the earth.

6 When Gods prepared the sacrifice with Purusa as their offering,

Its oil was spring, the holy gift was autumn; summer was the wood.

7 They balmed as victim on the grass Purusa born in earliest time.

With him the Deities and all Sadhyas and Rsis sacrificed.

8 From that great general sacrifice the dripping fat was gathered up.

He formed the creatures of-the air, and animals both wild and tame.

9 From that great general sacrifice Rcas and Sama-hymns were born:

Therefrom were spells and charms produced; the Yajus had its birth from it.

10 From it were horses born, from it all cattle with two rows of teeth:

From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.

11 When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?

What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?

12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.

His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.

13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth;

Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath.

14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head

Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.

15 Seven fencing-sticks had he, thrice seven layers of fuel were prepared,

When the Gods, offering sacrifice, bound, as their victim, Purusa.

16 Gods, sacrificing, sacrificed the victim these were the carliest holy ordinances.

The Mighty Ones attained the height of heaven, there where the Sidhyas, Gods of old, are dwelling.

-------------

The references to navel has been paraded about as proving that this Vishnu. But Virat, Vishnu is born from Purusha.

And this reference of navel is available in Bhagavatam (27 th and 28th verses).

21. The prajapatis said: O greatest of all gods, Mahadeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

22. O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

Please note: Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you,

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue.

27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

28. O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gayatri are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart.

------------

And reference to the thousand arms, eyes and legs? In shruti this is found as below.

Svet. Up. Chapter III

1The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal.

2Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

3His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

---------------

It is indescribable foolishness to insist: “2Rudra is truly one;” means “Vishnu is truly one”, by a person who thinks they are different.

But for those who believe: “5 From him Viraj was born; again Purusa from Viraj was born.”, there is no problem whatsoever.

The root is Pragnya, in which Virat exists and in which the SELF DEPENDENT Tryambika-Mahesvara-Shiva-Rudra as the LORD manifests.

Book 7 HYMN CI. Parjanya.

1 SPEAK forth three words, the words which light preceded, which milk this udder that produceth nectar. Quickly made manifest, the Bull hath bellowed, engendering the germ of plants, the Infant.

------

4 In him all living creatures have their being, and the three heavens with triply flowing waters. Three reservoirs that sprinkle down their treasure shed their sweet streams around him with a murmur.

---------

6 He is the Bull of all, and their impregner lie holds the life of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods,

In Lord Pragnya (Bhava) all creatures and heavens and all waters exist. He speaks the VAK.

YV iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

Om Namah Sivayya

April 2, 2005

To a reference to

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

--

The guest gave the following info:

**************

Well this proves nothing. Lord Shiva obtained a boon from Rama. The rst is given below to show why Lord Shiva has this capacity to offer moksha.

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_51/msg00065.html

he Jabalishruti and Ramopanishad make it clear that

Shiva gives the upadesha of tAraka-brahma mantra to his departing devotee:

jantoH prANeShUtkramamANeShu rudrastArakabrahmamantraM vyAchaShTe |

yenAsAvamR^itIbhUtvA moxI bhavatI |

Thus the Kashi kshetra being capable of giving moksha is primarily due to Shiva's upadesha of 'tAraka-brahma-mantra'. Details on the 'tAraka-brahma-mantra' and the deity propounded by that mantra can be found in the same upaniShad. It informs us of Shiva doing penance of Shri Rama

mantra for thousands of manvantaras. Pleased with that, Sri Rama asks Shiva to choose a boon. Then Shiva requests Shri Rama to grant a boon that whoever (any 'jantu') dies in kAshI should be given mukti. Granting the boon, Shri

Rama says that I shall be 'sannihita' in every rock and stone of Kashi. Whosoever you wish to liberate, give the upadesha of 'my mantra' in his left ear. That Jiva shall be liberated.

****************

So, I copy a portion of Jabala Upanishad from Sukla Yajur Veda.

JABALOPANISHAD BELONGING TO THE SUKLA-YAJUR-VEDA

-1. Brihaspati (the preceptor of the gods) asked (the sage) Yajnavalkya: (Which is) the Kurukshetra, (the famous holy place that destroys sins and protects the good, (the place) where the gods perform sacrifices and which is the abode of Brahman in all beings ? (Yajnavalkya replied): Avimukta is the Kurukshetra, (the place) where the gods perform sacrifices to deities and which is the abode of Brahman in all beings (i.e. the middle of the eye-brows). Hence wherever one goes one shall think thus: This is the Kurukshetra, the place where the gods perform sacrifices to the deities and which is the abode of Brahman in all beings. This is the spot where, when the vital airs depart from the living person, Rudra imparts the Taraka Brahman mantra to him by which, becoming immortal, he attains liberation (final beatitude). Hence one shall resort to the Avimukta; shall not desert the Avimukta. (Brihaspati approved of the statement saying): ‘So it is, Yajnavalkya’, verily it is so, O, revered one ! ‘It is so Yajnavalkya’.

II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta Lord Siva as the redeemer is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in the Avimukta Ishvara, possessed of attributes.

II-2. ‘Which is that (place) where Avimukta is established ?’ ‘He is established in between varana and nasi’. ‘What is (meant by) varana and what (by) nasi ?’ ‘The varana is so called as it wards off all the faults committed by the (ten) organs (of perception and action). The nasi is so named as it destroys all sins committed by the (ten) organs. (The place between the varana and the nasi is the meeting place of the upper part of the nose and the centre of the eye brows). ‘Which is the seat of that (Avimukta) ?’ ‘That, which is the (well known) juncture of the eye brows and the nose, is the juncture of heaven (in the form of the crown of the head) and this world (in the form at the end of the chin). The knowers of the Veda worship indeed this juncture (Samadhi) as Sandhya (in their daily worship). That Avimukta is to be worshipped. He who knows this thus (the true nature of the Avimukta), imparts the wisdom of the Avimukta (that the individual Self is no other than the attributeless Brahman, to his disciples).

III-1. Then the discipline students (Brahmacharins of Yajnavalkya) asked him: ‘Pray, tell us, what is that mantra by reciting which one attains immortality ?’ He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of (Rudra to achieve) immortality. By (reciting) these (mantras) one becomes immortal.

Repeat: He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of Rudra to achieve immortality. By these mantras one becomes immortal.

Om Namah Sivayya

April 3, 2005

Om Namah Ramana

Dear Guest and Dear Ganesh Prasad Ji,

I have to leave on a longish trip and I do not have much time. So, without going into the acrimonious discussions and arguments that might have taken place overnight, I write the following.

Dear Guest,

You addressed me as Dear Atanu in the beginning (though termed my post as non-sense) and that 'dear' word brought me to write this. You will term it as bhava but it is swattick bhava.

I used a lot of harsh words in this thread and for that I am remorseful. I feel a love towards you since you love the same God as I love. You slayed off the God of immortality for that you better be remorseful.

See the fun. I love a god who I know as Supreme, sarva, and existing every where. You also love a god who you know as same. There are no two such things. There can be only ONE SUPREME, else HE is not the supreme. But we fight. This is the nature of mind and thoughts which constitute the mind.

But the root where from the mind (and thoughts) has sphurana, is “I”.

The Pragnya is the Lord. Prajanan Brahman -- from where first “I” arises and then arises the Vak.

Book 7 HYMN CI. Parjanya.

1 SPEAK forth three words, the words which light preceded, which milk this udder that produceth nectar. Quickly made manifest, the Bull hath bellowed, engendering the germ of plants, the Infant.

------

4 In him all living creatures have their being, and the three heavens with triply flowing waters. Three reservoirs that sprinkle down their treasure shed their sweet streams around him with a murmur.

---------

6 He is the Bull of all, and their impregner lie holds the life of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

This is the Lord, who exists eternally as I (Bhava), expands as Virat, becomes manifold through Hirayanagarbha, and dissolves as Rudra.

That is why.

YV iv. 5. 5.

a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra.

b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle.

c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated.

d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair.

e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows.

f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista.

g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow.

h Homage to the short, and to the dwarf.

i Homage to the great, and to the stronger.

k Homage to him who hath waxed, and to the waxing.

I Homage to the chief, and to the first.

m Homage to the swift, and to the active.

n Homage to the rapid, and to the hasty.

o Homage to him of the wave, and to the roaring.

p Homage to him of the stream, and to him of the island.

The Consciousness (Pragnya) is the Self “I”. It is Brahman. It is Lord Shiva, It is Narayana. It is Tryambaka Isana. It is Virat. It is Hirayanagarbha. It is Rudra. And all through the one ADITI is the underlying power – as Durga, Laksmi, as Saraswati.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

And

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

Thou art “I” and Thou art All.

Whether you win or “i” win it is I that wins. Enquiring into this Self, meditating on this Self and finally realizing this Self, is the goal.

And Saktiman Purusa? He is the One who always keeps the Pragnya pure, bright, and shining.

And Taraka mantra?

Chandogya

III-xvii-6: Ghora Angirasa expounded this well-known doctrine to Devaki’s son Krishna and said, ‘Such a knower should, at the time of death, repeat this triad – "Thou art the imperishable, Thou art unchangeable, Thou art the subtle essence of Prana". (On hearing the above) he became thirstless. There are these two Rik stanzas in regard to this.

III-xvii-7: (Those knowers of Brahman who have purified their mind through the withdrawal of the senses and other means like Brahmacharya) see everywhere (the day – like the supreme light) of the ancient One who is the seed of the universe, (the light that shines in the Effulgent Brahman). May we, too having perceived the highest light which dispels darkness, reach it. Having perceived the highest light in our own heart we have reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, we have reached that highest light.

One who has perceived the highest light in heart and has reached that highest light, which is the dispeller (of water, rays of light and the Pranas), shining in all gods – yea, that person has reached that highest light.

And such a person is Rama, Raman, who always sports in the Self. One who knows this before death is fortunate.

Bye. Hope this is useful to some if not to my friend guest.

Om Namah Sivayya

bhadramoorthi · April 3, 2005

call him rudra or vishnu,what is kept in a name??

why are the vaishnavas and saivas debating over a mere change in name and form??

one and the only one is the lord whatever the name may be.

there is no mention of inferior god as long as all the pujas and offerings are meant to the same supreme being.

bhadramoorthi · April 3, 2005

You are true in the concepts of the lord .I support you.

Lord Siva combined with mother Sakthi manifests into this universe(this is just my philosophy)

Brahma,Vishnu,Rudra,Ishwara,Sadashiva all are the lord's various forms only.

Supremacy of Visnu

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