Bhakti is NOT A PATH!

[Guest guest]

There is limited reference to bakthy in the vedas. The oldest reference of bakthy is in rig ved and the meaning of bakthy is sharing, to share.

 

So the topic is worth debating.

 

Bakthy is today taken for:

 

1: The dependance relationship between a have & a have-not.

 

2. The dependance relationship between the afraid/anxious with the knower of solutions to all problems.

 

2. An innocence pleading person saying 'I don't know' & 'don't blame ME' as against a person who is takes ownership & acts sincerely.

 

I consider bakthy as quest for knowledge, awareness, realization.

 

I consider arjuna's pounding of questions to Krishna & his trembling fearful experience as NO sincere quest for knowledge. As also evidenced, Arjuna picked up his bow only after learning from krishna from his viswa roopa about the result of the war.

 

Krishna is ever graceful, ever pleased and ever serving. His statement of giving arjuna the special status of baktha or the closest baktha was from Krishna own perspective, and not in response to any of arjuna's past actions.

 

The most important point is there can be no measure to bakthy, if there it does not translate to uplifting of the society or doing service to country men. Seeking a measure of self assessment of bakthy from an ISKCON member or vasihnavites is the most foolish.

[BinduMadhav]

Dear Guest,

 

{I consider bakthy as quest for knowledge, awareness, realization.}

 

Unless you are starting an entirely new school of thought in Hinduism, you are mistaken about this. Quest for knowledge, awareness and realization is called Gnyana Yoga. True Bhakti Yoga is living with 100% love towards Lord Krishna and all His creation. To take one step higher, Bhakti Yoga is living as a service to others while being in total love with Lord Krishna.

 

Rajashekar is right about one thing. One cannot live with Bhakti alone; Karma is being performed all the time we are trapped in this body. But he is mistaken in that the Karma being referred to in the Gita is actually the Yagnas/Yagas such as Rajasuya, Ashvamedha, Vajapeya and others.

 

The person along the path of Bhakti Yoga is defined in the 12th Chapter of Bhagavad-Gita. If you are interested in reading further, here is the website to Srila Prabhupada's Gita-As-It-Is: http://www.asitis.com/12/1.html.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"the Karma being referred to in the Gita is actually the Yagnas/Yagas such as Rajasuya, Ashvamedha, Vajapeya and others. "

 

Krishna is so empahtic in BG of Karma samnyasa, like no others in the scriptures. And here come the vasihavites interpretation concluding it to inaction as stated above.

 

Bakthi Yoga in 12th chapter comes after Krishna acknowledges that to realise bramhan is not easy. Vaishnavas ignore the portion of geeta prior to Krishna's acknowledgement. Krishna suggests alternatives for people to engage to finally get there, after the acknowledgement that attaining te Jynana of bramhan is difficult. Bakthy yoga is the alternative referred.

 

Bakthy cannot be a destination. And no desitnation can be reached, without

1. bakthy (service)

2. quest for knowledge, awareness, realization.

 

Without the point.2. one forces oneself to make bakthy itself the destination. This is no good for spiritual progress to experience bramhan. It's like disregarding krishna's emphatic suggestions prior to the acknowledgement that realizing bramhan is difficult.

 

Bakthy (Service) is not a destiny, it's the only worthy pasttime for the body, so long it's towards a spiritual goal of advaitha.

 

Making bakthy as the destiny is for the christians to make sure that people keep coming to their church, muslims to keep having their muslims to keep coming to their mosques, vaishnivites to keep having their devotees coming to their temples and sport their tilaks ( and similar other organized religions). That's why these following may not be able to accomodate the pursuit of advaitha. As I discussed, there is nothing from these religions for the individual progress, it offers only for the group.

 

Look at india and the freedom within religion, and there are still enough people in the temples & going to many of them.

[Guest guest]

It must be remembered that Karma, Bhakti, Yoga and Jnana do not mutually exclude each other. Karma Yoga leads to Bhakti Yoga which in its turn leads to Raja Yoga. Raja Yoga brings Jnana. Para Bhakti is Jnana only. Bhakti, it must be borne in mind, is not divorced from Jnana. On the contrary, Jnana intensifies Bhakti. Karma purifies the heart. Bhakti removes the tossing of the mind. Raja Yoga steadies the mind and destroys Sankalpas. Every Yoga is a fulfilment of the preceding one. Bhakti is the fulfilment of Karma, Yoga (i.e., Raja Yoga) of Bhakti and Karma, and Jnana of all the preceding three.

[Guest guest]

a very good effert to explain the 4 ways of moksha guest22

 

the 4 ways are mutually related and can not be seperated from one another......

 

on the other hand i feel there are no precedings as said my mr.Guest22....i came to this conclusion after having a discussion with another vaishnavite who knew how to respect others....

 

bakthi improves to become janana but to have bakthi one has to have some janana. one can see this like an intersection of two circles......neither can exist without the other....

 

just to substanciate......when a person is very devoted to his deity his mind becomes clear and he learns that what ever happens happens for a reason...this clarity of mind shows him the path of janana....when a person understands the true form of God, his bakthi becomes twofold just that it differs from his previous state of bakthi by not being explict but beeing implicit. so i came to realise that bakthi enhances janana ans janana enhances bakthi....

 

when one performs his duity perfectly he acquires good karma and hence get the chance of knowing god better...he is exposed to the light of the truth and he becomed a baktha...his Bakthi grows....on the same hand when one gets attracted to God even for few seconds (bakthi)this few minitues attraction will drive him to enjoy the warmth of this truth more, his actions will change...he starts to prefer rigitiuos activity and this preference will slowly change in to behavior and character and he will lead a life of karma yogi...

 

and so on...

 

thus the 4 ways of mukti are not independent but mutually dependent...but then again being mutually dependent they maintain their differences......when i say these 4 paths are mutually dependent i dont say that one can not follow one path....i only say that even when one follows any one path of these 4, he will also have a portion of the other paths also...

 

'neti neti'-neither this nor that

 

 

[Guest guest]

******

bakthi improves to become janana but to have bakthi one has to have some janana. one can see this like an intersection of two circles......neither can exist without the other....

********

 

And neither comes without grace. And without jnana liberation is not possible.

 

However, some prefer living in bhakti in preference to liberation and that is a path of Puranas.

 

But Upanishads plainly state that jnana is essential. Even Gita says so but many do not see it. And one Upanishad (Maitreya Bramha) states that nothing but the Vedas is true.

[BinduMadhav]

Atanu, my good man,

 

{And neither comes without grace..}

 

You are mistaken about the word Grace, in religious terms. Grace is something bestowed by Lord Krishna on mortals like us, not because He has to, but because He condescends to. It is a Judeo-Christian term.

 

 

[Guest guest]

******

bakthi improves to become janana but to have bakthi one has to have some janana. one can see this like an intersection of two circles......neither can exist without the other....

********

 

Sri C. Rajagopalachari:

 

Adi Sankaracharya has wrote a number of Vedantic works for imparting knowledge of the self and the universal spirit. He also composed a number of hymns to foster bhakti into the hearts of men. One of these hymns is the famous Bhaja Govindam.

 

The way of devotion is not different from the way of knowledge or jnana. when intelligence matures and lodges securely in the mind, it becomes wisdom. When wisdom is integrated with life and issues out in action , it becomes bhakti. Knowledge when it becomes fully mature is bhakti. If it does not get transformed into bhakti, such knowledge is useless tinsel. To believe that jnana and bhakti-knowledge and devotion are different from each other is ignorence.

 

If Sri Adi-Shankara himself, who drank the ocean of jnana as easily as one sips water from the palm of one's hand, sang in his later years hymns to develop devotion it is enough to show that jnana and bhakti are one and the same. Sri Sankara has packed into the Bhaja Govindam song the substance of all Vedanta and set the oneness of jnana and bhakti to melodious music.

[BinduMadhav]

{Sri Sankara has packed into the Bhaja Govindam song the substance of all Vedanta and set the oneness of jnana and bhakti to melodious music.}

 

Only one correction to Sri Rajagopalachari's commentary. Sankara did not set Bhaja Govindam to music. The great M.S.Subbulakshmi did. In Raga-malika, at that.

[thiruvengadam]

sorry to have posted the post 'indeed to be appriciated ' without signing in...actually in a haste to reply to guest22 i didnt notice that i have not logged in....

 

BindhuMadhav it is not Om NamaShivaya who is mistaken but its u....when he means grace he didnt mean the grace word of the Judeo-christian but the hindu perspective of the fruit one gets due to kis karma....

 

for eg: people say 'he sings with a grace' 'he dances with a grace'...from where does one gets this grace? the answer most say that 'its God gifted'....or 'hardwork'

 

lets not talk about hard work for its not exactly to with spirituality...coming to 'God's gift'...will God gift u something just like that? on what basis do God gives His gifts? the answer is very simple...karma...based on ur karma it is decided where, when , how and with what all ur born...due to ur karma u get ur gifts and its due to karma u get ur curses (vethi-fate, by saying fate i dont point the results of ur try, but i point to the situation in which u try...i believe that karma will only determine the situation and one's action in that situation is a act of the self doing which he makes he new karma....thats why in tamil there is a proverb that states vethi-fate can be won by the mathi-mind)

[Guest guest]

***** You are mistaken about the word Grace, in religious terms. Grace is something bestowed by Lord Krishna on mortals like us, not because He has to, but because He condescends to. It is a Judeo-Christian term. ********

 

You are also mistaken. I said what you say. Where did I say grace is by right? Grace means grace at the discretion of Lord.

 

That is what I have tried to highlight that without grace even Bhakti does not come.

 

[Guest guest]

Bindu, why do you have to find fault every where? How did you know I meant grace in Christian context. And what is grace in Christian context?

 

Thiru has rightly put things in perspective. Self less pure Karma only leads to grace. And Self less karma is also grace controlled by Daivam Niyati.

 

 

[Guest guest]

*********

Sri Sankara has packed into the Bhaja Govindam song the substance of all Vedanta and set the oneness of jnana and bhakti to melodious music.}

 

Only one correction to Sri Rajagopalachari's commentary. Sankara did not set Bhaja Govindam to music. The great M.S.Subbulakshmi did. In Raga-malika, at that.

**********

 

This guy does not understand poetic allusions but acts all knowing.

[Guest guest]

****You are mistaken about the word Grace***

 

How do you know what he means by grace?

[Guest guest]

The teaching of vaishnavic scriptures/interpretations can only teach differentiatedness.

 

Inferior ...superior

 

accept...reject

 

higher position (Krishna).....lower position (the rest of gods)

 

insulting to krishna......deep respect to krishna

 

My suffering.....Krishna's pleasure

 

The last one above is popular bakthy posture for vaishnavaites which they call as surrender. Poor krishna will continue to be prayed with the INaction & complete negativity by vasihnavaites.

 

Krishna's teaching IS IN NO WAY responsible for the vaishnavites interpretation of bakthy ( & pleasing krishna) with inaction and negativity. BG is his spirit of positive energy for the world, ever radiating.

[Guest guest]

I once read a book by a guru.

 

Guru took a foreigner through temples in calcutta. Foreigner remarked: "only one god Krishna plays, all others do some work. So, Krishna is God."

 

The guru took it as a Veda vani and preached it.

[BinduMadhav]

{Bindu, why do you have to find fault every where? How did you know I meant grace in Christian context. And what is grace in Christian context?

 

Thiru has rightly put things in perspective. Self less pure Karma only leads to grace. And Self less karma is also grace controlled by Daivam Niyati.}

 

Don't take things so seriously. I was only trying to share my knowledge of the word with you, with the intent of making you aware. Not with the intention of trying to act superior.

 

Ofcourse, the alternative is for me to stop ignoring your posts. I would not like to do that because you seem to be as a very knowledgeable and intelligent person.

 

Thiruvengadam's perspective (Self less pure Karma only leads to grace) makes no sense at all. Agreed that the word 'Grace' has several meanings in different contexts; but since we are discussing religion here, the word Grace means what the Lord may bestow upon us, not because we have a right to demand it, but because He, in His infinite love, offers it freely to us.

 

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

*********

Sri Sankara has packed into the Bhaja Govindam song the substance of all Vedanta and set the oneness of jnana and bhakti to melodious music.}

 

Only one correction to Sri Rajagopalachari's commentary. Sankara did not set Bhaja Govindam to music. The great M.S.Subbulakshmi did. In Raga-malika, at that.

**********

 

{This guy does not understand poetic allusions but acts all knowing. }

 

How is Sri Rajagopalachari's wrongly stating that Sankara set Bhaja Govindam a poetic allusion? Other poets, sages and scholars have written innumerable works (like Venkateshwara Suprabhatam, for an example). Has any one of them set it to music? I was only giving credit where credit is due: MS Subbulakshmi deserves the credit for the musical part of Bhaja Govindam. Not Adi Sankara.

 

And how does my trying to correct an error or giving credit where it is due make me a 'Pedestrian fellow'?

 

You are a curious and interesting person.

[Guest guest]

**********

I was only trying to share my knowledge of the word with you, with the intent of making you aware. Not with the intention of trying to act superior.

***********

 

I don't need your sharing please. And your earlier rejoinder was not of sharing but of advicing without knowing what I mean by grace.

[Guest guest]

Do you imagine Rajagopalacharya not to know that Sankara did not set Bhaja Govindam to music (which is heard by the ears)?

 

If you imagine so, then ask your parents about Rajagopalacharya. OK?

 

 

The union of Jnana and Bhakti that Bhaja Govindam is, is the loftiest melodious music -- the flute of Krishna heard by the evolved within oneself. Ears are not required for such music.

 

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

{Do you imagine Rajagopalacharya not to know that Sankara did not set Bhaja Govindam to music (which is heard by the ears)?

 

If you imagine so, then ask your parents about Rajagopalacharya. OK?}

 

All right, my dear child. Relax, don't get too upset. By the way, it is Rajagopalachari, not Rajagopalacharya. Have you read his works?

 

{The union of Jnana and Bhakti that Bhaja Govindam is, is the loftiest melodious music..}

 

Bhaja Govindam, my dear child, is poetry. Poetry does not come with music set to it (unless they are Vedic verses, in which case, the music is written into it according to the emphasis to be provided to various words: UdAtta, AnudAtta). Do you know what it is? I will be happy to explain it to you.

 

When Adi Sankara wrote Bhaja Govindam, truly a masterpiece, the music was not that much advanced. Most advances in music occurred in the last couple of centuries, with the advent of, most importantly, Saint Tyagaraja and his lovely Kirtanas on Lord Rama set to various Talas and Ragas. Sankara, my good child Atanu, lived in the 8th C AD.

[Guest guest]

 

"The union of Jnana and Bhakti that Bhaja Govindam is, is the loftiest melodious music.."

 

 

It has nothing to do with time -- 8th AD or 1 BC.

 

The matter of this thread is Bhakti and Jnana. However, your knowledge is applauded.

[Guest guest]

who says there weren't ragas more than 1000 years ago. seems a bit strange to me.

[Guest guest]

i thought they were described in the vedas??

[BinduMadhav]

{i thought they were described in the vedas?? }

 

The only musical part of the Vedas is in Sama Veda. Although most verses in Sama Veda can also be found in Rig and Yajur Vedas, the former two have no musical intonations to them. It is not much of music. The Ragas were developed much later.