Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Namaskar uvijaya ji, ******** Namaskar my dear Atanu, you can send me the electronic copies to my email address: uvijaya@hotmail.com Can you breifly tell me the history of both these Upanishads ? ********* I will try to find out about history. Kena Upanishad is the Bible of Vichara method. And Mandyuka means leaping like frog. Mandyuka takes one to the truth by leaps and not gradually as in the study of Vedas for 12 years. ************ "13.23. The Paramatma residing in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, Mahesvara and the Param Purusha." Is Paramatma the self inside us that feels sad or guilty when we do something bad. What made me do something that is bad and why is it at the same time Iam feeling sad and guilty about it ? ************ No dear friend. The Gita verse makes it absolutely clear: The Paramatma residing in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, The Param Atma is pure bliss. There is no unhappiness. Your true nature is bliss. The true nature is covered by a false ego that claims ownership of body, mind, deeds, people, property etc. On loss of any of these or on loss of any desire of the ego, the ego makes your limited CID feel the pain. Limited CID today thinks that the Ego is the real I. The real I is the Param Atma. One who can successfully dissociate from the ego – “I am this“ feeling, becomes pure bliss. Anything that makes you feel bad is not permitted by Param Atma CID but is forced by the ego. Anything permitted by Param Atma will make you happy. Param Atma has a power called conscience. This same conscience as Rudra snatched away a head of Brahma when He desired his daughter Usha. That is why Rudra is the inner controller. One should know the real cause of happiness. Imagine that your ego desires a thing. And it is fulfilled. For a short time there is no new desire and one feels happy. The moment another desire comes, the unhappiness comes. So, happiness is always there but it is covered by desire of the ego. Another fact may help you understand further. And this will be part answer to one of Ganesh Prasad Ji’s rejoinder also. In waking state (A of AUM -- Agni) ego is rampant. It identifies objects and claims them. Then it becomes despondent with failures. In dream sleep (U of AUM -- Visnu) also the mind creates objects within itself. But in deep sleep (M of AUM) ego is put to sleep by Lord Pragnya. One does not know the ego. And one does not know the world. THis variegated world is sustained by ego alone. But on account of mind being asleep you do not come to know of the bliss. But you know when you wake up: “I slept happily”. There was no distress, no guilt, no pain etc. And you wake up refreshed. Then you wake up and say “i” – the ego rises. Then the i says “This is my bed, my wife etc etc. And the play of ego begins. And the pain reappears. The goal of sadhana is to attain the waking sleep condition – when ego will not exist and mind will be fully awake. At this state mind has lost its upadhis (limits like “I am this”) and it has become unlimited pure CID. One in many millions attains this state permanently. But we all can attain such a state for a second or an hour or more. At the end of Kalpa, Rudra makes Visva go to sleep. And later a fresh creation begins with rise of I and Visva again. If you wish you may spend 5-10 minutes to inquire “I”, after your japa, when mind has become tranquil. Hold your attention to the “I” feeling and whenever the mind wanders bring it back gently on “I”. The “I” feeling rises and sinks from the same place from where the breath rises and sinks within you. Or similarly you can hold your attention on Shiva or Durga or Vishnu knowing the god to be your inner self that says I. Om Namah Sivayya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji *********** Sorry Atanu ji I did not say that or at least did not mean that, let me try again but I think you know what I meant anyway. The small i. is reflected in any form of life through consciousness or else the body is inert. ******** Are you not changing your earlier position here? This I do not understand. If 'the Atma is undivided one but appears to be divided in beings' is true then how the statement that there are numerous real small i's is also true? what is this small i and what is then the atma? are they different? ********** we may fight (like cats and dogs in the form of who the father is? like the children in the play ground, my father is better then yours) *********** Does it not indicate that the small i is only the ego sense? ********* Yes but then I was talking of Karma it does not apply to Krishna or Siva they are above Gunas. ********* Yes but scriptures do talk of jivan muktas who are beyond gunas too. ********** Sleep is in the mode of ignorance therefore one would not know in that state the reality. *********** Is the waking state not in the mode of ignorance? ********** (It is enough to know that the 'self' that we consider as real is just a reflection of the 'Self'.) Knowing anything is not enough, one has to strive for it and achieve it, for me it is a fact that I am eternal part of that same supreme from whom everything emanates *********** With what I know and experienced (it is barely anything), Upanishads say: All this is name and form. Beneath name and form it is one Brahman. Knowing this one may meditate on one Brahman. This differs from your view but I know this much only. Undivided Atma and undivided Self ('yam) verses of Gita also pushes me towards this. Without percieving the One Brahman that appears as Visva, one cannot go above lust, fear, hatred etc. These are not my statements but stated in Upanishads. ***** I am the origin of all. Everything emanates from Me. Understanding this, the wise ones worship Me with love and devotion. (10.08) ********* i do not understand why Krishna sometimes refers to Lord as third person and often also says that I am Lord? Yes, I understand that partless spirit is the origin of all. Vamadeva says the same in Brid. Up. "I became the moon, I became the Sun". Love and worship wells up in me with this understanding only and not with any other way. May be I am on a wrong path? I see the other path full of jealousy and hatred. Can you see wind? Only its movement is seen. Can one see God and then abuse others? Is that vision correct which makes one sectarian? Can see that every being is sustained and growing and existing in Lord Vayu? Subtle supports the gross. But senses do not percieve it. Only intellect may understand it. Can you imagine how sunlight, air, and water combine to form big trees? Most people would not even imagine that unsubstantial (apparently) elements have given rise to a 30ft solid tree. Unsubstantial to the senses but the real powerhouse is the atman -- the consciousness. The pure consciousness is termed the wish fulfilling tree in scriptures. One who truly cuts the knot of the heart (sense of i attached to the body) becomes pure consciousness can say: i am in moon, i am in sun. i am in Ganesh prasad. i am in atanu. His i does not remain bound. This is taught in Upanishads. May be many gurus just preach this theoretically. But many other gurus preach hatred without ever having seen god. I prefer the former. In one upanishad Brahma asked meaning of DA DA DA to devas, asuras, and men. All three classes answered diffferently. One percieves truth as per one's own need. But what is the unchangeable eternal truth? The divided Visva or undivided Brahman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Namaskar Atanu, you wrote *************** Anything that makes you feel bad is not permitted by Param Atma CID but is forced by the ego. In waking state (A of AUM -- Agni) ego is rampant. It identifies objects and claims them. Then it becomes despondent with failures. In dream sleep (U of AUM -- Visnu) also the mind creates objects within itself. But in deep sleep (M of AUM) ego is put to sleep by Lord Pragnya. One does not know the ego. And one does not know the world. THis variegated world is sustained by ego alone. But on account of mind being asleep you do not come to know of the bliss. But you know when you wake up: “I slept happily”. There was no distress, no guilt, no pain etc. And you wake up refreshed. **************** If ego is what makes us unhappy and in deep sleep ego is not functioning, Then what makes us have bad dreams or nightmare ? Then we become sad in our sleep. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganeshprasad Posted June 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 Jai Ganesh Namaskar Atanu Ji Re (Are you not changing your earlier position here?) If I gave you that impression I am very sorry. Re (This I do not understand. If 'the Atma is undivided one but appears to be divided in beings' is true then how the statement that there are numerous real small i's is also true?) This is the most amazing situation Brahman is one but then it is not empty we all are living proof. Paramatma prevades all, appears divided in Jivatma who is real or else what is the need for attaining supreme peace and the eternal abode? Paramatma is not under the influnce of maya but jivatma is. The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act by His power of Maya as if they are mounted on a machine. (18.61) Seek refuge in Him alone with all your heart, O Arjuna. By His grace you shall attain supreme peace and the eternal abode. (18.62) Re (what is this small i and what is then the atma? are they different?) Atma and parmatma are qualitatively the same but different in quantity. At the present the jivatma is under the influence of ignorance therefor under the control of Maya where else Paramatma controls the Maya. Re (Does it not indicate that the small i is only the ego sense?) No the ego is broken when the small I realizes that it has nothing under control the real controller is the lord. You may argue then what is left. The controller was always there so what would he control if there is nothing to control? But of course he is more then the mere controller he is pure love and the love is reciprocated. Re (Yes but scriptures do talk of jivan muktas who are beyond gunas too. ) Yes there are many like Kumars, Narad, Sukhdev they all remind us of one thing is to worship the Lord. Atri muni foremost among knower of Brahman desired a son like the lord. Now tell me why would a person like that would have desires? Re (Is the waking state not in the mode of ignorance?) Yes both the states that is the reason to inquire for the truth. Asatoma sat gamaya Tamso ma joytirgamaya. Re (With what I know and experienced (it is barely anything), Upanishads say: All this is name and form. Beneath name and form it is one Brahman. Knowing this one may meditate on one Brahman.) Name and form are of the body, since the small I is part of the one Brahman it is right that one should meditate on that supreme Brahman. Re (This differs from your view but I know this much only. Undivided Atma and undivided Self ('yam) verses of Gita also pushes me towards this.) Differences are not of important to me it is the worship of the lord following Dharma is. RE (Without percieving the One Brahman that appears as Visva, one cannot go above lust, fear, hatred etc. These are not my statements but stated in Upanishads. ) I am guided by my faith and I am of firm belief that what is there to fear if one takes shelter of the lord. Re (i do not understand why Krishna sometimes refers to Lord as third person and often also says that I am Lord?) That is not difficult to understand since the lord is unlimited in forms and names, he is acknowledging worship of past and he is saying he is the same lord. It is only unfortunate that some people claim exclusive right for Krishna and ignore the worship of others as inferior. Re (Love and worship wells up in me with this understanding only and not with any other way. May be I am on a wrong path? I see the other path full of jealousy and hatred.) No my dear friend I have never ones said your path is wrong. And you are not wrong in your chosen path. We both worship the lord and that is more important. Re (Can you see wind? Only its movement is seen. Can one see God and then abuse others? Is that vision correct which makes one sectarian?) No Re (One who truly cuts the knot of the heart (sense of i attached to the body) becomes pure consciousness can say: i am in moon, i am in sun. i am in Ganesh prasad. i am in atanu. His i does not remain bound. This is taught in Upanishads. May be many gurus just preach this theoretically. But many other gurus preach hatred without ever having seen god. ) Point taken Re (I prefer the former.) One has to see the truth for what it is. Re (In one upanishad Brahma asked meaning of DA DA DA to devas, asuras, and men. All three classes answered diffferently. One percieves truth as per one's own need. But what is the unchangeable eternal truth? ) We will find out in due course. Re (The divided Visva or undivided Brahman?) Visva in one brahman Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji, I will come back later. Just wanted to point out something *********** Re (The divided Visva or undivided Brahman?) Visva in one brahman ************ Just after this comes your signature line as given below. The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2005 Report Share Posted June 11, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji ************* Re (Are you not changing your earlier position here?) If I gave you that impression I am very sorry. *********** No sorry business pal. DA meant three different things to Devas, Manyusas, and Asuras. Brahma told that all three meanings combined makes the truth. The truth is that which assimilates and anhilates all differences. All religions unite in him. All differences become one unity in him. ************* Re (This I do not understand. If 'the Atma is undivided one but appears to be divided in beings' is true then how the statement that there are numerous real small i's is also true?) This is the most amazing situation Brahman is one but then it is not empty we all are living proof. Paramatma prevades all, appears divided in Jivatma who is real or else what is the need for attaining supreme peace and the eternal abode? Paramatma is not under the influnce of maya but jivatma is. ************** Why do you say that the absence of numerous small i means emptiness? As such Brahman is there, how even the concept of emptiness arises? My friend this a bad concept. At least I think so. To whom the ONE appears divided? If the division, as Lord says is only an appearance then how real are those things that appear to divide one Param Atma into many? And then I suppose, after this apparent division, Paramatma remains unchanged. The division is an appearance but the dividing agents are real? ************ The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act by His power of Maya as if they are mounted on a machine. (18.61) Seek refuge in Him alone with all your heart, O Arjuna. By His grace you shall attain supreme peace and the eternal abode. (18.62) Re (what is this small i and what is then the atma? are they different?) Atma and parmatma are qualitatively the same but different in quantity. *************** This is familiar. I have heard the same before. What exactly is the quantitative difference? *********** At the present the jivatma is under the influence of ignorance therefore under the control of Maya where else Paramatma controls the Maya. ************* What happens when the ignorance is removed? What exactly is the ignorance? **************** Re (Does it not indicate that the small i is only the ego sense?) No the ego is broken when the small I realizes that it has nothing under control the real controller is the lord. You may argue then what is left. The controller was always there so what would he control if there is nothing to control? But of course he is more then the mere controller he is pure love and the love is reciprocated. ************* I agree. But what you say implies that even after removal of ego the apparent division of Param Atma remains as it is? Since earlier you said that without numerous small “i” Brahman would become void. Brahman is full and it will remain so. Only the apparent boundaries will dissolve. Then one day desire for another will raise its head and Brahman will create Usha. *********** Re (Yes but scriptures do talk of jivan muktas who are beyond gunas too. ) Yes there are many like Kumars, Narad, Sukhdev they all remind us of one thing is to worship the Lord. Atri muni foremost among knower of Brahman desired a son like the lord. Now tell me why would a person like that would have desires? ************** This is not contradictory to what I believe. Till the body is there constant devotion/meditation to keep the ONE Brahman in mind is required. All divine manifestations meditate. Thus they know the ONE being. About Atri Muni: every one has to go through the grihastha stage. That is the desire – to taste something different from oneself --- on account of which beings are born in a womb. That desire has to be fulfilled. ********* Re (Is the waking state not in the mode of ignorance?) Yes both the states that is the reason to inquire for the truth. Asatoma sat gamaya Tamso ma joytirgamaya. ************* What is the ignorance? This I have asked before also and I have repeated it here. In deep sleep, one surely exists but the world does not. So, for existence of Purusha, world is not necessary but the world is on account of the Purusha. How can something (visva) which exists differently during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep be the true thing. Like what is really water remains water through its state changes from solid ice, to liquid water, and gaseous vapour. Similarly, the real I must be something other (and true) compared to the sense of I that one has in waking, dream, and shushupti? What is the nature of that true I? ************ Re (With what I know and experienced (it is barely anything), Upanishads say: All this is name and form. Beneath name and form it is one Brahman. Knowing this one may meditate on one Brahman.) Name and form are of the body, since the small I is part of the one Brahman it is right that one should meditate on that supreme Brahman. *********** This is clear. ******* Re (This differs from your view but I know this much only. Undivided Atma and undivided Self ('yam) verses of Gita also pushes me towards this.) Differences are not of important to me it is the worship of the lord following Dharma is. *************** This does not matter at some level. Like application of Newtonian Physics is perfectly suitable for everyday applications. But for applications related to cosmic or fundamental particle states (nucleous, quarks etc), one requires relativistic quantum physics. So, at one stage one will find that lust cannot be overcome (unless one becomes impotent). Or, one jivatma finds that interests clash with another Jivatma. It is my undersatanding that at some stage, the opening of jnana chakshu (that burns differences and thus lust, anger, hatred, fear) becomes imperative. Of course for that Lord will decide. But still Krishna says: the knowledge of ONE who appears divided is to be obtained to attain liberation. ************ RE (Without percieving the One Brahman that appears as Visva, one cannot go above lust, fear, hatred etc. These are not my statements but stated in Upanishads. ) I am guided by my faith and I am of firm belief that what is there to fear if one takes shelter of the lord. ************ This is same as the above point. I will emphasize that what appears as firm belief does not remain so under severe test. Gunas take over. The firm knowledge is opening of jnana chakshu only. ************ Re (i do not understand why Krishna sometimes refers to Lord as third person and often also says that I am Lord?) That is not difficult to understand since the lord is unlimited in forms and names, he is acknowledging worship of past and he is saying he is the same lord. It is only unfortunate that some people claim exclusive right for Krishna and ignore the worship of others as inferior. **************** Krishna does say that he does not sanction the worship of other gods. Did you meditate before answering this? In other words are you convinced of the answer you have provided? Why does Krishna describe himself as Being and non-being. But when he describes undivided paramatma he states: that being is neither a being and nor a non-being. What does this mean? Then why does he say: Lord has mounted jivas (as if) on a machine. Why a bad thing has to be ascribed to a third person Lord. Why then Lord Krishna says: that undivided Brahman has to known to attain liberation? The main question is: why Lord talks in first person and third person in different verses? I was not fully satisfied with your earlier answer so I have put it again with new questions. ******* Re (Love and worship wells up in me with this understanding only and not with any other way. May be I am on a wrong path? I see the other path full of jealousy and hatred.) No my dear friend I have never ones said your path is wrong. And you are not wrong in your chosen path. We both worship the lord and that is more important. ************* All paths are paths. Their summit is the same. ************ Re (Can you see wind? Only its movement is seen. Can one see God and then abuse others? Is that vision correct which makes one sectarian?) No **************** After knowing God one cannot remain sectarian. That vision which makes one sectarian cannot be true vision. We agree. OM OM OM. ************* Re (One who truly cuts the knot of the heart (sense of i attached to the body) becomes pure consciousness can say: i am in moon, i am in sun. i am in Ganesh prasad. i am in atanu. His i does not remain bound. This is taught in Upanishads. May be many gurus just preach this theoretically. But many other gurus preach hatred without ever having seen god. ) Point taken ********* We agree. ******** Re (I prefer the former.) One has to see the truth for what it is. ********** How to do it?? What is the truth? Is the truth covered with maya? Who sees the 'truth covered with Maya' as the TRUTH? What will be the visva like if Maya is removed? What does Maya do to the truth? How does Maya affect the truth, which should be more powerful that the truth? I request you to please treat these questions separately in detail. ******** Re (In one upanishad Brahma asked meaning of DA DA DA to devas, asuras, and men. All three classes answered diffferently. One percieves truth as per one's own need. But what is the unchangeable eternal truth? ) We will find out in due course. ************ I hope ********** Re (The divided Visva or undivided Brahman?) Visva in one Brahman *********** Well you say “Visva in one Brahman”. That means Visva is eternally in one Brahman. But your signature line says “the world disappears in Him”. How so? What happens to Visva after it disappears in Him? And when does it disappear? It disappears uniquely for different Jivas or it disappears only at the time of Pralaya. Have nice week end with these questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Answers awaited. Take your time please. Namaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganeshprasad Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Jai Ganesh Namaskar Atanu Ji re (No sorry business pal. DA meant three different things to Devas, Manyusas, and Asuras. Brahma told that all three meanings combined makes the truth. The truth is that which assimilates and anhilates all differences. All religions unite in him. All differences become one unity in him. ) bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah After many births the wise ones resort (or surrender) to Me by realizing that everything is (a manifestation of) Brahman indeed. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) Re (Why do you say that the absence of numerous small i means emptiness? As such Brahman is there, how even the concept of emptiness arises? My friend this a bad concept. At least I think so.) Well let me put it this way brahman encompases every thing that includes jivas, we are very much part of it. It is presisely my point brahman is full of varities, nothing that exsist is ever destroyed. Re (If the division, as Lord says is only an appearance then how real are those things that appear to divide one Param Atma into many? And then I suppose, after this apparent division, Paramatma remains unchanged. The division is an appearance but the dividing agents are real?) Yes Krishna says This entire universe is pervaded by Me, the unmanifest Brahman. All beings depend on (or remain in) Me (like a chain depends on gold). I do not depend on them. (9.04) ( From a Dvaitic or dualistic view point, waves depend on the ocean, the ocean does not depend on the waves. But, from a Advaitic or non-dualistic point of view, as stated in verse 9.05 below, the question of wave abiding in the ocean or the ocean abiding in the wave does not arise, because there is no wave or ocean. It is water only. Similarly, everything is a manifestation of Brahman only. (Gita 7.19)) And yet beings, in reality, do not remain in Me. Look at the power of My divine mystery. Though the sustainer and creator of all beings, I do not remain in them. (In reality, the chain does not depend on gold; the chain is nothing but gold. Also, matter and energy are different as well as non-different). (9.05) Consider that all beings remain in Me (without any contact or without producing any effect) as the mighty wind, moving everywhere, eternally remains in space. (9.06) All beings merge into My Prakriti at the end of a Kalpa (or a cycle of 4.32 billion years), O Arjuna, and I create (or manifest) them again at the beginning of the next Kalpa. (9.07) Using My Prakriti I create, again and again, the entire multitude of beings that are helpless, being under the control of (the Gunas of) Prakriti. (9.08) These acts of creation do not bind Me, O Arjuna, because I remain indifferent and unattached to those acts. (9.09) The Prakriti or nature, under My supervision, creates all animate and inanimate objects; and thus the creation keeps on going, O Arjuna. (See also 14.03) (9.10) ************ The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act by His power of Maya as if they are mounted on a machine. (18.61) Seek refuge in Him alone with all your heart, O Arjuna. By His grace you shall attain supreme peace and the eternal abode. (18.62) Re (This is familiar. I have heard the same before. What exactly is the quantitative difference?) while the lord creats sustains and destroy we have limited such powers. Like a magnet which is very powerful will attract every thing its way but a small magne it also attract but if you were to cover it with a cloth or inert material then the power is lost, like so in essence we are also sat chit and anand but the veilling power of maya obstruct our real (small I)self in order for jivas to enjoy life devoid of god. Re (What happens when the ignorance is removed? What exactly is the ignorance? ) We attain our real state full of bliss, ignorance is for small I to think it can become god, in essence this is what goes on in this bhovtik world, we try to be lord of all that we surway. The lord is very kind he fullfils our desires and thus the covering of maya. The coming in contact with maya is due to our desires to enjoy inbdependent of god. Re (I agree. But what you say implies that even after removal of ego the apparent division of Param Atma remains as it is? Since earlier you said that without numerous small “i” Brahman would become void. Brahman is full and it will remain so. Only the apparent boundaries will dissolve. Then one day desire for another will raise its head and Brahman will create Usha.) As you say Brahman will allways be full, there is no question of it being void, desires are sign of our independency, we may choose to remain with god or choose maya. Re (This is not contradictory to what I believe. Till the body is there constant devotion/meditation to keep the ONE Brahman in mind is required.) Why only till the body is with us? Re (All divine manifestations meditate. Thus they know the ONE being.) Yes but those devine personalities extol one supreme being even when they are brahm gyani. Re (About Atri Muni: every one has to go through the grihastha stage. That is the desire – to taste something different from oneself --- on account of which beings are born in a womb. That desire has to be fulfilled.) So differences are there and it is the desires that sends us in merry go round. Unlike our desires Atri rishi desired son like supreme brahman and in such desires there is no loss. Re (In deep sleep, one surely exists but the world does not. So, for existence of Purusha, world is not necessary but the world is on account of the Purusha.) No the world does not stop existing in deep sleep except we are not aware of it. What need is there for purusha to creat the world? Re (How can something (visva) which exists differently during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep be the true thing. Like what is really water remains water through its state changes from solid ice, to liquid water, and gaseous vapour.) This visva is part of the brahman but it nature is constanly changing, comlex matter degenerates to it original form in due course of time.this phenomina is for all of us to observe the observer is the truth and the higher truth is the one who controls whole cosmic menifistation. Re (What is the nature of that true I?) Sat Chit Anand Vighrha. Re (So, at one stage one will find that lust cannot be overcome (unless one becomes impotent). Or, one jivatma finds that interests clash with another Jivatma. It is my undersatanding that at some stage, the opening of jnana chakshu (that burns differences and thus lust, anger, hatred, fear) becomes imperative.) Yes one one must rise above desires and dwesh to reach the supreme goal Bg7.27 iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate. So yes jnana is important As the blazing fire reduces wood to ashes, similarly, the fire of Self-knowledge reduces all Karma to ashes, O Arjuna. (4.37) Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. One who becomes purified by Karma-yoga discovers this knowledge within (naturally) in course of time. (See also 4.31, and 5.06). (4.38) The one who has faith, and is sincere, and has mastery over the senses, gains this knowledge. Having gained this, one at once attains the supreme peace. (4.39) Re (Of course for that Lord will decide. But still Krishna says: the knowledge of ONE who appears divided is to be obtained to attain liberation. ) But of course one has also to know who is making the inquery and why. Who is seeking the libration? Re (Krishna does say that he does not sanction the worship of other gods. Did you meditate before answering this? In other words are you convinced of the answer you have provided?) Yes we must understand in which context Krishna says that or else he clearly says in chapter three Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11) Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15) The Saattvika persons worship Devas, the Raajasika people worship demons, and the Taamasika persons worship ghosts and spirits. (17.04) Re (Why does Krishna describe himself as Being and non-being. But when he describes undivided paramatma he states: that being is neither a being and nor a non-being. What does this mean?) Here there is a fudamental differences between the lord and the jiva Krishna in the eyes of the being was then and can be precived by us mortal as ordinary like us but in reality he is supreme and not subjected to laws of material nature. The one who truly understands My transcendental birth and activities (of creation, maintenance, and dissolution), is not born again after leaving this body and attains My abode, O Arjuna. (4.09) Tulsidas write in his mannas 93B Chhanda: Brahmaandda-nikaa-yaa nirmita maa-yaa roma roma prati bayda kahay: Mama ura so baasee yaha upahaasee sunata dheera-mati thira na rahay:: Upajaa jaba jnaanaa Prabhu musukaanaa charita bahuta bidhi keenha chahai: Kahi kathaa suhaa-yee maatu bujhaa-yee jayhi prakaara suta prayma lahai:: Bk192 Kaushalyaa continued, "The Vedas declare that the multitudes of universes reflected as reality by maya are embedded in each hair on your body. O Lord! The intriguing fact that the same Lord stayed in my heart (womb) will create a storm of excitement and wonder even in the minds of men of steady wisdom." When Kaushalyaa showed her Knowledge of Shree Raama being Brahman, He smiled. He told her that He wanted to perform a variety of deeds. He narrated stories of the past to make Kaushalyaa enjoy her role and the bliss of being His mother. 93C Chhanda: Maataa puni bolee so mati ddolee tajahu taata yaha roopaa: Keeji-yay sisu-leelaa ati-priya-seelaa yaha sukha parama anoopaa:: Suni bachana sujaanaa rodana tthaanaa ho-yi baalaka sura-bhoopaa: Yaha charita jo gaavahin Hari-. paavahin tay naa parahin bhava-koopaa:: Bk192 Kaushalyaa's mind was confused. She said, "O Lord! Give up your form and display your child-like playful form. That is the source of supreme delight to me." At this, the Lord of all gods became a baby and started its cries. Those who hear this narrative attain the Lord's abode and never fall in the well of rebirth. 94 Dohaa: Bipra-dhaynu-sura-santa-hita, leenha manuja avataara: Nija-ich-chhaa-nirmita-tanu, maa-yaa-guna go-paara:: Bk192 94. God is beyond maya, its satvaguna, rajoguna and tamoguna modes and the reach of the senses. By His own choice He manifested Himself in a human body for the good of the Brahmin, the cow, gods and spiritually advanced persons. God incarnates for all but more for those with firm faith in and a yearning for Him. Along with the spiritually advanced, they secure the most worthwhile from Him. Jivas genraly thinks them self as being who has taken birth at certain point of time and will perish in due course but that is not the reality na jayate mriyate va kadacin nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano na hanyate hanyamane sarire The Atma is neither born nor does it die at any time, nor having been it will cease to exist again. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval. The Atma is not destroyed when the body is destroyed. (2.20) Re (Then why does he say: Lord has mounted jivas (as if) on a machine. Why a bad thing has to be ascribed to a third person Lord.) On the face of it it sounds terrible but the choice was ours. Re (Why then Lord Krishna says: that undivided Brahman has to known to attain liberation?) Lord Krishna speaks of many paths to attain liberation. Re (The main question is: why Lord talks in first person and third person in different verses?) That is because he is not limited in any sense and before Krishna menifested on earth his worship was and still is in different forms he can not deny as if they don’t matter. Some worship Me by knowledge sacrifice. Others worship the infinite as the one in all (or non-dual), as the master of all (or dual), and in various other ways. (9.15) Re (How to do it?? What is the truth? Is the truth covered with maya? Who sees the 'truth covered with Maya' as the TRUTH? What will be the visva like if Maya is removed? What does Maya do to the truth? How does Maya affect the truth, which should be more powerful that the truth?) Brahman is satya, maya only effect the jivas. Jivas think maya is satya but the lord and sages know better. Maya only obstruct the truth like the cloud covers the sun. Visva remais intact until Rudra deva desides to end it. Many self realised mahan atma has roamed this visva only to enlighten us if this was just a dream there is no such possiblities. Re (I request you to please treat these questions separately in detail. ) With costrain of time I have only briefed it but you do not need to know as you are well aware of all the answers, you are doing a great job of getting the best out of me although I am not qualified. Re (I hope) There is always a hope. Re (Well you say “Visva in one Brahman”. That means Visva is eternally in one Brahman. But your signature line says “the world disappears in Him”. How so? What happens to Visva after it disappears in Him? And when does it disappear? It disappears uniquely for different Jivas or it disappears only at the time of Pralaya.) When we are in yoga with the lord this world is not so painful infact we become peaceful. Nothing else matter so it is a unique to individual as well as at the time of pralaya the word disappears in him and remains dorment untill the coming of the next youg. Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Jai Ganesh Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji ******** Re (Why do you say that the absence of numerous small i means emptiness? As such Brahman is there, how even the concept of emptiness arises? My friend this a bad concept. At least I think so.) Well let me put it this way brahman encompases every thing that includes jivas, we are very much part of it. It is presisely my point brahman is full of varities, nothing that exsist is ever destroyed. ************ Then what is destroyed by the destroyer? What is meant by destruction of Tripura? **************** Re (If the division, as Lord says is only an appearance then how real are those things that appear to divide one Param Atma into many? And then I suppose, after this apparent division, Paramatma remains unchanged. The division is an appearance but the dividing agents are real?) Yes ********* Let us not bring in Gita at this stage here. By using common sense, how, real dividing agents still do not divide the ONE? ************* Re (This is familiar. I have heard the same before. What exactly is the quantitative difference?) ------ like so in essence we are also sat chit and anand but the veilling power of maya obstruct our real (small I)self in order for jivas to enjoy life devoid of god. ************* Why is the life with god not enjoyable? And how a pure thing like sat-chit-anand, that you say is the real I becomes smaller in quantity. How can truth (sat) be made smaller in quantity? ************** Re (I agree. But what you say implies that even after removal of ego the apparent division of Param Atma remains as it is? Since earlier you said that without numerous small “i” Brahman would become void. Brahman is full and it will remain so. Only the apparent boundaries will dissolve. Then one day desire for another will raise its head and Brahman will create Usha.) As you say Brahman will allways be full, there is no question of it being void, desires are sign of our independency, we may choose to remain with god or choose maya. ************* The question is: what remains after removal of ego? How it will be different from today when ego is there? ********** Re (In deep sleep, one surely exists but the world does not. So, for existence of Purusha, world is not necessary but the world is on account of the Purusha.) No the world does not stop existing in deep sleep except we are not aware of it. What need is there for purusha to creat the world? ************* Dear friend, such a world would mock at you for knowing it while not knowing yourself. What is world but awareness alone? Does the world say to you that it exists? It is your cognition which cognizes the world. In deep sleep when senses are asleep, there is no world though you exist. What exists always, underlying the waking, dreaming, and deep sleep state is real I. World is in you (in your cognition). It is not separate from you. The consciousness is prior to the world. The seer is first. The world does not exist without existence of your cognition. You will say that well the world exists for others. But even the others do not exist while in deep sleep. All external objects exist either for “i” or “I”. In deep sleep the small ego “i” does not exist, but I definitely exist. So, the differentiated world is cognized by the ego small “i” and not by I. When a dream breaks the dream objects will become unreal. Similarly, when life will leave your body the world will become non-existent. The world exists for the senses alone as differentiated objects. In deep sleep there is no small i and there is no world. This is the subject of Mandyuka, Chandyoga, and most other Upanishads. ************ Re (So, at one stage one will find that lust cannot be overcome (unless one becomes impotent). Or, one jivatma finds that interests clash with another Jivatma. It is my undersatanding that at some stage, the opening of jnana chakshu (that burns differences and thus lust, anger, hatred, fear) becomes imperative.) Yes one one must rise above desires and dwesh to reach the supreme goal Bg7.27 iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate. So yes jnana is important As the blazing fire reduces wood to ashes, similarly, the fire of Self-knowledge reduces all Karma to ashes, O Arjuna. (4.37) Verily there is no purifier in this world like knowledge. One who becomes purified by Karma-yoga discovers this knowledge within (naturally) in course of time. (See also 4.31, and 5.06). (4.38) The one who has faith, and is sincere, and has mastery over the senses, gains this knowledge. Having gained this, one at once attains the supreme peace. (4.39) ************* Nice recap. To be read again and again. *************** Re (Of course for that Lord will decide. But still Krishna says: the knowledge of ONE who appears divided is to be obtained to attain liberation. ) But of course one has also to know who is making the inquery and why. Who is seeking the libration? ************ You have asked a question of paramount importance. You had asked it before also. The seer of the world is making enquiry and seeking liberation. On liberation, the seer and seen become indistinguishable. The body-mind-ego-the world, all become consciousness – part of SELF. The seer who sees the world, which is not very happy, is making the enquiry. ******** Re (Krishna does say that he does not sanction the worship of other gods. Did you meditate before answering this? In other words are you convinced of the answer you have provided?) Yes we must understand in which context Krishna says that or else he clearly says in chapter three *********** We will come to it later. ************** Re (Why does Krishna describe himself as Being and non-being. But when he describes undivided paramatma he states: that being is neither a being and nor a non-being. What does this mean?) Here there is a fudamental differences between the lord and the jiva Krishna in the eyes of the being was then and can be precived by us mortal as ordinary like us but in reality he is supreme and not subjected to laws of material nature. ---------- **************** Ganesh Prasad Ji you have given excellent material here, but the main question, I feel, is not answered: Why Krishna declares himself (adiyagna) as Sat and Asat. While he defines anadimat param Brahman as neither sat nor asat. Some, have played this difference as a sign (as if) of subordinate position of anadimat param Brahman. But Lord says that Jnana wrt this being, who appears to be divided but is not divided and is neither sat nor asat, has to be obtained to attain liberation. I do not understand ‘sat and asat’ and ‘neither sat nor asat’. Can you please contemplate on this. ********** Re (Then why does he say: Lord has mounted jivas (as if) on a machine. Why a bad thing has to be ascribed to a third person Lord.) On the face of it it sounds terrible but the choice was ours. *********** Who created us? *********** Re (How to do it?? What is the truth? Is the truth covered with maya? Who sees the 'truth covered with Maya' as the TRUTH? What will be the visva like if Maya is removed? What does Maya do to the truth? How does Maya affect the truth, which should be more powerful that the truth?) Brahman is satya, maya only effect the jivas. Jivas think maya is satya but the lord and sages know better. Maya only obstruct the truth like the cloud covers the sun. Visva remais intact until Rudra deva desides to end it. Many self realised mahan atma has roamed this visva only to enlighten us if this was just a dream there is no such possiblities. *************** ************* Re (Well you say “Visva in one Brahman”. That means Visva is eternally in one Brahman. But your signature line says “the world disappears in Him”. How so? What happens to Visva after it disappears in Him? And when does it disappear? It disappears uniquely for different Jivas or it disappears only at the time of Pralaya.) When we are in yoga with the lord this world is not so painful infact we become peaceful. Nothing else matter so it is a unique to individual as well as at the time of pralaya the word disappears in him and remains dorment untill the coming of the next youg. *************** Yes, Mandyuka says of the three stages of AUM pertaining to individualized consciousness wherein the pragnya stage is the dormant stage. We are trapped in waking, dreaming, and sleep. And think that the states as true but we do not seek the seer of the three states. The seer of the three states is unchangeable real I. One has to go to Turiya – the waking sleep stage, where one sees no world but one sees ONE indescribable Lord. Jai Shree Krishna The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second. Om Namah Sivayya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganeshprasad Posted June 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Atanu Ji Re (Then what is destroyed by the destroyer? What is meant by destruction of Tripura?) Parivartan, transfomation Re (Let us not bring in Gita at this stage here. By using common sense, how, real dividing agents still do not divide the ONE? ) This is a very good question, since our senses are faulty or at best limited, to explain a phenomena of one that pervades the entire manifestation, like the pearls strung on the thread, without the aid of the all knowing god would be an attempt of a small bird trying to dry up an ocean. But if you want then let us use our common sense and see what is the ground reality, in this cosmic manifestation this earth is a tiny spot in which we can see millions of life form, we can also see everyone is struggling independently. And I stress it is a struggle but there is also order an order of grand scale not the design of individuals that we know, but a superior power we call god who must know all, control all and pervades all. The supreme Brahman can not lack in anything therefore we must assume that he must also have a form or unlimited forms and that Brahman pervades all just like the sun it is localized and its rays spreads every where. The presence of individual is not in question it is for all to see but the individual can not be independent or outside the realm of Brahman therefor we must assume everything is within the Brahman. So question arises is this just the one Brahman? If it just one then how can it be in ignorance? If there are no individual then who is ishvara controlling? This advaita and dvaita is very difficult to fathom. Sri Chataniya Maha Prabhu has reconciled the sudh dweita and adwaita very nicely as acintya bhed Abhed tatva (inconceivable oneness and difference). It is also very interesting to note that he propagated Vaisnavism and yet he took Sanyas from Adwita even though he had many times defeated staunch adwaita saints. I find this very interesting and yet we find a lot of his followers actually mocking the adwaita. My common sense tells me I am but a jivatma whose existence depends on ishvara. It is small I all around including the lower species of life are experiencing pleasures and pain. In these different species of life there is localized experience which is of an individual where else the witness of all and the sanctioning of all is one Supreme Being in the form of super soul. So we have the lord in the form of its energy pervading the whole manifestation we have the jivasoul, the super soul and Bhagvan. If you like we can continue further but at a slower rate you have posed many questions none easy to answer at least not by me. Jai SHree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Yes, Gasnesh Prasad Ji let us go slowly at any speed you wish to. There is no hurry whatsoever. ******** in this cosmic manifestation this earth is a tiny spot in which we can see millions of life form, we can also see everyone is struggling independently. ************* Do you not see these millions of life form after rise of “i” sense? Do you not see these through your eyes, which may be subject to maya? I quote Asiya Vamiya suktam from Rig Veda below: Book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas. (ASIYA VAMIYA SUKTA) 34 I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is the centre of the world, I ask thee. I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of highest heaven where Speech abideth. 35 This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre. THE STALLION'S SEED PROLIFIC IS THE SOMA; THIS BRAHMAN THE HIGHEST HEAVEN WHERE SPEECH ABIDETH. The above verse states that you (as the sacrifice) are the center. In your cognition, the world exists. Atanu exists. Kaivalya Upanishad Om ! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together; May we work conjointly with great energy, May our study be vigorous and effective; May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any). Om ! Let there be Peace in me ! Let there be Peace in my environment ! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me ! 1. Then Ashvalayana approached the Lord Paramesthi (Brahma) and said: Teach, O Lord, the knowledge of Brahman, the highest, always cultivated by the good, hidden and by which a wise man drives away instantly all the sins and reaches the Purusha higher than the high. 2. And to him, the Grandsire (Brahma) said, "Know (this) by means of faith, devotion and meditation. Not by work, nor by progeny, nor by wealth, but by renunciation, some attained immortality. 3. Higher than heaven, seated in the cave (Buddhi), that shines, (which) the self-controlled attain – the self-controlled, who being of pure minds have well ascertained the Reality, by the knowledge of Vedanta, and through Sannyasa or renunciation. In the sphere of Brahma, at the time of cosmic dissolution, they all get liberated from the highest (apparent) immortality of the manifested universe. 4-5. In a secluded place, sitting in an easy posture, pure, with a neck, head, and body erect, living in the last of the orders of religious life, having controlled all the sense, saluting his own preceptor with reverence, meditating within the lotus of the heart (on Brahman), untainted, pure, clear and griefless. 6. (Who is) unthinkable, unmanifest, of endless forms, the good, the peaceful, Immortal, the origin of the worlds, without beginning, middle, and end, the only one, all-pervading, Consciousness, and Bliss, the formless and the wonderful. 7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya). 8. He is Brahma, He is Shiva, He is Indra, He is the Immutable, the Supreme, the Self-luminous, He alone is Vishnu, He is Prana, He is Time and Fire, He is the Moon. 9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom. 10. Seeing the Atman in all beings, and all beings in the Atman, one attains the highest Brahman – not by any other means. 11. Making the Atman the (lower) Arani, and OM the upper Arani, by the repeated friction of knowledge, a wise man burns up the bond. 12. With his self thus deluded by Maya or ignorance, it is he who identifies himself with the body and does all sorts of things. In the waking state it is he (the Jiva) who attains satisfaction through the varied objects of enjoyment, such as women, food, drink, etc. 13. In the dream-state that Jiva feels pleasure and pain in a sphere of existence created by his own Maya or ignorance. During the state of profound sleep, when everything is dissolved (into their causal state), he is overpowered by Tams or non-manifestation and comes to exist in his form of Bliss. 14. Again, through his connection with deeds done in previous births, that very Jiva returns to the dream-state, or the waking state. The being who sports in the three cities (viz., the states of wakefulness, dream and profound sleep) – from Him has sprung up all diversity. He is the substratum, the bliss, the indivisible Consciousness, in whom the three cities dissolve themselves. 15. From This spring up Prana (Vitality), mind, all the organs, sky, air, fire, water and the earth that supports all. 16. That which is the Supreme Brahman, the soul of all, the great support of the universe, subtler than the subtle, and eternal – that is thyself, and thou art That. 17. "That which manifests the phenomena, such as the states of wakefulness, dream and profound sleep, I am that Brahman" – realising thus one is liberated from all bonds. 18. What constitute the enjoyable, the enjoyer, and the enjoyment, in the three abodes – different from them all am I, the Witness, the Pure Consciousness, the Eternal Good. 19. In me alone is everything born, in me does everything rest, and in me is everything dissolved. I am that Brahman, the secondless. 20. I am minuter than the minute, I am likewise the greatest of all, I am the manifold universe. I am the Ancient One, the Purusha and the Ruler, I am the Effulgent One, and the All-good. 21. Without arms and legs am I, of unthinkable power; I see without eyes, and I hear without ears. I know all, and am different from all. None can know me. I am always the Intelligence. 22. I alone am taught in the various Vedas, I am the revealer of the Vedanta or Upanishads, and I am also the Knower of the Vedas. For me there is neither merit nor demerit, I suffer no destruction, I have no birth, nor any self-identity with the body and the organs. 23-24. For me there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air, nor ether. Thus realising the Paramatman, who lies in the cavity of the heart, who is without parts, and without a second, the Witness of all, beyond both existence and non-existence – one attains the Pure Paramatman Itself. 25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always or once (a day). 26. By means of this, one attains the Knowledge that destroys the ocean of Samsara or repeated transmigration. Therefore, knowing thus one attains the fruit of Kaivalya or liberation, verily one attains liberation. Om ! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together; May we work conjointly with great energy, May our study be vigorous and effective; May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any). Om ! Let there be Peace in me ! Let there be Peace in my environment ! Let there be Peace in the forces that act on me ! Here ends the Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda 19. In me alone is everything born, in me does everything rest, and in me is everything dissolved. I am that Brahman, the secondless. 20. I am minuter than the minute, I am likewise the greatest of all, I am the manifold universe. I am the Ancient One, the Purusha and the Ruler, I am the Effulgent One, and the All-good. 21. Without arms and legs am I, of unthinkable power; I see without eyes, and I hear without ears. I know all, and am different from all. None can know me. I am always the Intelligence. 22. I alone am taught in the various Vedas, I am the revealer of the Vedanta or Upanishads, and I am also the Knower of the Vedas. For me there is neither merit nor demerit, I suffer no destruction, I have no birth, nor any self-identity with the body and the organs. “I” in the above verses is the real I. And “i” that points to the body is not the real I. *********** My common sense tells me I am but a jivatma whose existence depends on ishvara. ************ How can you say that it is not the other way around? You have not touched the query as to why Lord Krishna declares himself (adiyagna) as Sat and Asat. While he defines eternal param Brahman as neither sat nor asat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2005 Report Share Posted June 26, 2005 ******** The presence of individual is not in question it is for all to see but the individual can not be independent or outside the realm of Brahman therefor we must assume everything is within the Brahman. So question arises is this just the one Brahman? If it just one then how can it be in ignorance? If there are no individual then who is ishvara controlling? This advaita and dvaita is very difficult to fathom. Sri Chataniya Maha Prabhu has reconciled the sudh dweita and adwaita very nicely as acintya bhed Abhed tatva (inconceivable oneness and difference). It is also very interesting to note that he propagated Vaisnavism and yet he took Sanyas from Adwita even though he had many times defeated staunch adwaita saints. I find this very interesting and yet we find a lot of his followers actually mocking the adwaita. ************ I can not understand fully what you have written above. May be at places dvaita has become advaita in your text and vice versa. All denominations of philosophy are really the same, looked from different preferences. Sankara is abused by calling him Maya Vadi and what not? Interesting thing is that He said “Maya is illusion, it does not exist. All is Brahman.” Isn’t it interesting that the one who taught that there is truly no Maya is called Maya vadi?? The only difference is in the preference of names and forms. Staunch preference for a form (and also name) does not allow one to see beyond VAK, where from the 2, then 3, then 8, then 11, then 12, then thousands and thousands arise. It is very clear to even an immature like me. And for this preference people are ready to abuse. Sankara said: Jagat Mithya, Brahman Satya, Brahman Jagat. There is no Maya. Jagat is real since it is Brahman. The only mistake of mind is to think that the Jagat exists independent of SELF. The jagat does not come and assert to you that I exist. First, you say I exist, and then jagat exists in the SELF. The problem arises because of sticking to dictates of ego and mind. I prefer to see the Brahman as Sivam – akshara, and its Shakti (Mind). Sivam gives birth to Shakti and Shakti to Sivam. When united they give birth to thousands of universes. But Sivam is Brahmachari and Shakti is virgin. They themselves have not changed a bit. On them, the universe rests. The jagat is not at all independent of one single consciousness of Sivam – who is non-different from shakti. Now, some other will replace Sivam and Shakti with Krishna and Radha. And then the fight will start. There will be many varieties of Advaita and of Dvaita. These varieties are of mind. The only akshara truth is Lord and his consort. I quote what my Guru says on this: “When the world is known and experienced to be an indivisible appearance in the underlying substratum of the Self, its nature is correctly known. The world is not real to the Jnani because it appears physically; it is REAL because its inherent nature is inseparable from the underlying reality of the SELF.” “To those who have not known the SELF and to those who have known the Self, the world in front is real. But to those, who have not known, the reality is limited to the measure of the world, whereas, to those who know, the reality shines devoid of form on which the changing world form subsists. Know that this is the difference between the two.” Sticking to individuality and seeing the world as different from the Self will never allow knowing: ADITI IS ALL (IN RIG VEDA); OR VASUDEVA IS ALL (IN GITA); OR AUM IS ALL (IN UPANISHADS). AND NOT KNOWING THIS AS ONE, MIND CANNOT SEE THE INFINITE AKSHARA, UNCHANGING SUBSTRATUM SHINING AS THOUSAND SUNS. That is why it is said: Know the Self, and all will be known. Om Namah Sivayya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 ******************************* Namaskar Atanu, *********** "10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins." *********** How do i become to realise this, how do i create him inside me when iam praying ? ******************************************** Namaskar Dear friend. I think I can answer your above question now. Please read the following few verses several times and bring to practice. Your question will be answered. Svetasvataropanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda I-13: Fire is not perceived in its source, the fire-stick, till it is ignited by percussion. The subtle essence of fire, nevertheless, is not absent in the stick; for fire can be obtained from the source, the fire-stick, by striking again. (The state of the Atman before and after realization). By meditating on the Pranava (OM), the Atman is perceived manifestly in the body, (but it was there in a latent state even before realization). I-14: Making one’s own body the lower piece of wood, and the Pranava the upper piece of wood, and practising churning in the form of meditation, one should realize God as one would find out something hidden. I-15-16: As oil in sesame seeds, as butter in curds, as water in underground springs, as fire in wood, even so this Self is perceived in the self. He who, by means of truthfulness, self-control and concentration, looks again and again for this Self, which is all-pervading like butter contained in milk, and which is rooted in self-knowledge and meditation – he becomes that Supreme Brahman, the destroyer of ignorance. The Purusha inside has been described as a very small flame, of the size of rice grain, in hridaya. It is not evident. But repeated pasing over (rubbing) of OM (the sound or the feeling) over the body (from navel to head), with full attention on OM, ignites the Purusha. One begins then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 Of the verse 1.15-16, the following is another translation. 15—16 As oil exists in sesame seeds, butter in milk, water in river—beds and fire in wood, so the Self is realized as existing within the self, when a man looks for It by means of truthfulness and austerity—when he looks for the Self, which pervades all things as butter pervades milk and whose roots are Self—Knowledge and austerity. That is the Brahman taught by the Upanishad; yea, that is the Brahman taught by the Upanishads. In order to be just. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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