Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

BinduMadhav · May 31, 2005

I know that a lot of discussion has been recorded on this forum on demigods like Siva. But, most of us Vaishnavites believe that, in order to achieve Moksha, one should worship Lord Vishnu or, better still, Lord Krishna. In Bhagavadgita, Lord Krishna himself says that by worshipping the demigods, the devotees go to the world of the demigod but not achieve Moksha. "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (Bhagavad-Gita 7.23)

I like Siva, because he is Lord Krishna's great devotee. He is a Parama Vaishnav, although he is filled with Tamoguna. This is why even Vaishnavs pray to Siva and ask for Bhakti for Hari from him. So I want to know what people think about worshipping Siva instead of Sri Krishna Himself directly. Why does anyone worship Siva? Why not worship the source, Lord Krishna Paramatma Himself? I know that in scriptures, Siva himself says that he is a Paramavaishnav so there are no doubts about this.

June 1, 2005

Which god is older in the scriptures? I've always wondered that. I'm told that Shiva is older and his images were found in the Indus-valley civilisation along with shakti, but no vishnu images were present.

But Shiva is not mentioned in the Vedas as Shiva, but as Rudra. Vishnu is mentioned but apparently not like the Vishnu we know in the puranas but as the Sun.

According the Vaishnavas like the HK, Shiva is just a demigod, but according to Shaivites, he is the Supreme God and Vishnu isn't.

Who are we to believe and why? How about neither!

BinduMadhav · June 1, 2005

{Which god is older in the scriptures? I've always wondered that. I'm told that Shiva is older and his images were found in the Indus-valley civilisation along with shakti, but no vishnu images were present.

But Shiva is not mentioned in the Vedas as Shiva, but as Rudra. Vishnu is mentioned but apparently not like the Vishnu we know in the puranas but as the Sun.

According the Vaishnavas like the HK, Shiva is just a demigod, but according to Shaivites, he is the Supreme God and Vishnu isn't.

Who are we to believe and why? How about neither! }

Lord Vishnu's three steps are mentioned in the Vedas. The same Lord Vishnu is mentioned in the Agamas such as Pancharatra, which are reputably older than the Vedas. Rudra is a minor god in the Vedas and the only way he could muster enough respect for himself is through his bullying. That is why any worship to Rudra is to keep him away, not to invite him to come closer.

Lord Vishnu (or Krishna), on the other hand, is benign and sweet as Amrit. Krishna's name itself is so sweet. That is why even Siva suggests worship of Vishnu in Padma Purana. Siva is also a worshipper of Lord Rama and states clearly that reciting Lord Rama's name even once is equivalent to reciting all thousand names of Lord (Vishnu). (Srirama rama rama ithi rame rame manorame sahasra nama tattulyam ramanama varanane).

I recommend worship of Lord Krishna (or Lord Rama) and not Siva's worship. We should follow the example of Siva and worship Sri Krishna.

How about neither? Not a good idea. We all need God in our lives for spiritual guidance.

Ganeshprasad · June 1, 2005

jai ganesh.

Re

Lord Krishna himself says that by worshipping the demigods, the devotees go to the world of the demigod but not achieve Moksha. "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (Bhagavad-Gita 7.23)

The thing is if we are honest we would understand the meaning that when Krishna says those who worship others devas impelled by desires. (7.20)

It is the desires that is being talked about, nothing to do with moksha.

Where else in chapter three this is what he says,

devan bhavayatanena

te deva bhavayantu vah

parasparam bhavayantah

sreyah param avapsyatha

SYNONYMS

devan-- bhavayata--having pleased; anena--by this sacrifice; te--those; devah--the bhavayantu--will please; vah--you; parasparam--mutual; bhavayantah--pleasing one another; sreyah--benediction; param--the supreme; avapsyatha--do you achieve.

Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal. (3.11)

Again in chapter 17

The Saattvika persons worship Devas, the Raajasika people worship and demons, and the Taamasika persons worship ghosts and spirits. (17.04)

Re

(I know that a lot of discussion has been recorded on this forum on demigods like Siva. But, most of us Vaishnavites believe that, in order to achieve Moksha, one should worship Lord Vishnu or, better still, Lord Krishna. In Bhagavadgita,)

Lord Siva is maheshvara, it is perfectly ok for Vaishnava to worship their Deva but judge others ista is wrong.

As for moksha here is what is said in Bhagvat

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord Śiva sitting on the summit of Kailāsa Hill with his wife, Bhavānī, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

Lord Shiva is very mercyful he accepts all.

Having said all this I doubt you accept any thing, that is if your approach is like Islam or Christians towards Dharma

Re

(I like Siva, because he is Lord Krishna's great devotee. He is a Parama Vaishnav, although he is filled with Tamoguna. This is why even Vaishnavs pray to Siva and ask for Bhakti for Hari from him. So I want to know what people think about worshipping Siva instead of Sri Krishna Himself directly. Why does anyone worship Siva? Why not worship the source, Lord Krishna Paramatma Himself? I know that in scriptures, Siva himself says that he is a Paramavaishnav so there are no doubts about this.)

You say you like Siva but I see no conviction in it.

Jai Shree Krishna

June 2, 2005

Is Vishnu the oldest? I'm not sure, but think prajapati, Indra and Agni are older and are more prominent gods in the Vedas. Vishnu I think was a minor god in the Vedas. There's not much about him there.

{Lord Vishnu's three steps are mentioned in the Vedas.}

Really, where? I didn't know that. Please post the verses and quote the reference.

{The same Lord Vishnu is mentioned in the Agamas such as Pancharatra, which are reputably older than the Vedas.}

Older than the Vedas! But I heard the Vedas are the oldest scripture of mankind. Reputably...? according to who?

{That is why any worship to Rudra is to keep him away, not to invite him to come closer.}

That's very hard to believe considering there are so many Shaivite ascetics in India, I'm sure they know better.

{How about neither? Not a good idea. We all need God in our lives for spiritual guidance. }

Yes we need GOD, but can do without a name or form if their followers are always arguing and looking for silly ways to degrade other forms of worship. There are many ways to worship Brahman or the as personal manifestation of Ishwar. God as Vishnu or Shiva are just two of the ways.

June 2, 2005

Shiva worship is the oldest religion in the history of this planet that we live on. Proto-Shaivism was worshipped in India as far back as 8000 BC. Vaishnavism actually took hold much later.

Personally, i believe originally India was mostly Dravidian and the so called Aryans werent coming in from Europe or central asia as much as there were migrations of Vedic people from Paksitran/Iran. With then probably came more veneration for Vishnu than Shiva, hence Vaishnavism.

Im not saying Vedism came from outside India however. I blieve Shavisim came with the people that came from south india and went up (Dravidian - austronesian people)

Vedism was a naturistic religion worshipped mostly in the extreme north and pakistan. this is around the indus valley area.

June 2, 2005

{Proto-Shaivism was worshipped in India as far back as 8000 BC.}

I've seen the proto-shiva murti and the seals but these were found in the Indus Valley Civilisation, not in South India.

{I blieve Shavisim came with the people that came from south india and went up}

I don't think so as we know that Vanarasi is one of the oldest cities and pilgrimage sites in India and it is dedicated to Shiva, as well as Kashmir. The Indus valley civilisation is evidence of one of the oldest civilisations in the Indian subcontinent and it is in the North. Shiva worship and the knowledge of yoga seems to be well known to them (as a seal showing pushpati - an early form of shiva in a known yogic posture).

There was no Pakistan, it was all India or Aryavarta or Bharata including Afghanistan which was then called Aryana, where some people think the Aryans came from, while others say The Aryans were always the people who lived in North India. The incarnations of Vishnu were all in UP - the area where the Aryan kingdoms were strong, but yet again you find Shiva worshipped there.

It's hard to say, but what is clear is that Vishnu is a minor god in the Vedas and Shiva is not mentioned explicitly which makes one believe he may have been later merged with his Vedic equivelent - Rudra.

By the way, I always wondered what scripture did the ancient Shaivites go by if their worship is older than Vedic worship? They must've had something to go by for it to survive to this day.

BinduMadhav · June 2, 2005

Ratheesh wrote:

{Shiva worship is the oldest religion in the history of this planet that we live on. Proto-Shaivism was worshipped in India as far back as 8000 BC...}

There is no proof that Saivism existed at that time. It is only a conjecture. Some of the archaeological evidence found indicate a figure similar to Siva in meditation, but it could have been a Rishi in meditation. Which means that Saivism is not that old.

On the other hand, evidence of Vishnu worship exists dating back to before the times of even Lord Rama, whose family (Ikshvaku's) were worshippers of Lord Vishnu.

{Im not saying Vedism came from outside India however. I blieve Shavisim came with the people that came from south india and went up (Dravidian - austronesian people) }

In this case, Saivism is not part of Arya Samskriti. It should be abandoned. Only worship of Lord Krishna should be followed by everyone.

June 2, 2005

You're all talking nonsense refering to archeology to establish which God is older. You will not establish who is older in this way. If Shiva were 8000 years old how could He be God then. God-perception is beyond this world. The earth is even older then 8000 years and God is worshipped ever since creation took place. Shiva and Vishnu Are two aspects the ever excisting God (Parameshvara). Non of them are older or younger. This is just a material designation. You will not achieve God-consciousness by thinking the history of a country is very important or has great meaning. Just by surrendering to His will you will achieve it. There is also proof across the rest of the world that there was vedic culture all over the world. How important is this then? Important is God is here - allways. Just give everything you have (love) to Him and you will behold Him and His endless love.

June 2, 2005

By the way Vishnu is mentioned in the vedas as Yajna.

June 2, 2005

****** Important is God is here - allways. Just give everything you have (love) to Him and you will behold Him and His endless love. *********

Eternity. Beyond time. The creator of time. Mahakal.

BinduMadhav · June 2, 2005

{You're all talking nonsense refering to archeology to establish which God is older. You will not establish who is older in this way. If Shiva were 8000 years old how could He be God then. God-perception is beyond this world. The earth...}

I think you missed the gist of the argument. We all agree that God is beyond time and space. As Taittareeya Upanishad puts it, the Lord is Immutable, Omniscient and Omnipresent (Sathyam, Gnyanam and Anantham). With Omnipresence comes 'ever-existence' in both space and time coordinates.

The argument was in which form was God being worshipped first. Not counting the Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology or the Zaratushtra's school, we Hindus were discussing whether the form of Shiva came first or the form of Vishnu came first. Yes, Bhakti towards Ishvara is very important. But one cannot immerse oneself in IshvaraBhakti 24 hours a day. So we were discussing. The gentleman mentioned archaeology and I counter-replied.

But the fundamental question has always been: In which form should we worship Him? Most of us Vaishnavs prefer to worship him in the form of Sri Vishnu or Sri Krishna. Almost all Hindus accept the validity of Bhagavad-gita and the Gita teaches us that Sri Krishna is the Lord Supreme. There are no ifs or buts about it.

Hope I have made it clear to you.

June 2, 2005

It's true that the proto-shiva image may have been a Rishi, but I don't think in Hindu culture, especially in ancient times they made murti's of Rishi's. There are hardly any images of the Rishi's we know of.

{Most of us Vaishnavs prefer to worship him in the form of Sri Vishnu or Sri Krishna. Almost all Hindus accept the validity of Bhagavad-gita and the Gita teaches us that Sri Krishna is the Lord Supreme.}

OK here's where we get controversial. It is said that the events of Mahabharata happened 5000 years ago. But if the Gita is accurate how come it is dated at 500 - 200BC? This was long after the war at Kurukshetra, so maybe it was an epic written about the historical even and they wanted to bring in a Vedantic dialogue in one part. The Gita as a guide to make the message of the Vedanta practical can be understood, but as the historical words of Sri Krishna...? I'm not sure if it was the case, so long after the event!

When you look at Hinduism, it's really the teachings of the different Sages (of the Upanishads) we are following, even though some prefer to go within sects, etc.

Gautama · June 3, 2005

God knows when psuedo faaithfuls like you will ever realize that Brahaman (God) is one and only one. It is so childish to quibble over Krisna and Shiva when both are one and only one. Look at this Vishwaroopa image.

June 3, 2005

before i put my two cents i would like u ppl to have a glance of what other ppl have to say about it in other threads

by a guest in the thread named 'Swami Narayan and Vallabha on Shiva '

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Swami Narayan's Shikshapatri 47:

No distinction shall be made between Narayan and Shiva, as they are both proclaimed as Brahmanswarupa by the Vedas

Shatanand Muni's Bhashya to 47:

Those who think of God differently to this, where Narayan or Shiva are defamed in some way are insulting God. Shatanand says that such people should have their eyes removed. Such a person is blind to the truth and can never be enlightened to that truth.

Many Shastras speak of the oneness of Narayan and Shiva. Our ancient Shastras in some instances speak of Narayan as supreme and in other instances speak of Shiva as supreme. Both views should be accepted as correct, hence they should be accepted as the one and the same. The following Veda scriptures are Shaiva in context as they speak of Shiva as Brahman: Atharvashikha, Atharvashisha, Shetasvataria, Mantropanishad, Kaivalyopanishad. The following speak of Vishnu as the supreme Brahman: Mahanarayanopanishad, Narayaropanishad, Mahopanishad, Shubhalopanishad. Thus the four Vedas sing only the oneness of Shiva and Narayan.

Shrimad Bhagwat’s Fourth Chapter explains, ‘Those who find indifference in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and recognise the oneness in them obtain eternal peace.’ The Eighth Chapter adds, ‘Shiva Brahma and Vishnu are thy manifested forms, which create, maintain and destroy the universe at thy will. Thou is Ishwara who delivers Moksha (Salvation). Thou is Parabrahman (the Supreme Lord).’

Narad Pancharatra succinctly states:

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

Bhattacharya has said, ‘I have looked in the Puranas, Upapuranas, Vedas, Smrutis and all other such Shastras, but have not come across anything to suggest a difference in Shiva and Vishnu.’ God himself has said, ‘Those who find difference in the two of us fall to the Hells.’ Shree Dhar Swami prays, ‘I humbly bow before Vishnu and Shankar who are one, who revere one another and who provide for all.’ Vallabhacharaya, a famed Vaishnava, in similar fashion says, ‘Glory to thee, who is honoured as Brahman in the Vedanta - Lord of the three worlds - Mahadev.’

Lord Swaminarayan has gone out of his way to glorify both Vaishnav and Shaiva Sampradais in order to get back to the true Vedic teachings. We must conform to this dream of Lord Swaminarayan’s by never uttering a word contrary to the Lord’s standpoint. We must always, with love, observe the Vratas of Lord Shiva and bow respectfully to the icons of Shiva. It does not in anyway fault our devotion to Lord Vishnu by doing so - indeed it strengthens devotion for Vishnu. Narayan and Shiva are one and the same. They are, if you like, two sides of the same coin. That coin being the Supreme Godhead

source:

http://swaminarayansatsang.com/scriptures/scriptureexplanation.asp?ScriptureDetailsID=48&ScriptureID=1

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Vallabh's Balbodh:

Vishnu is the sustainer of creation while Shiva is the destroyer. Both have been revealed as such in their own scriptures. Know without a doubt that the Supreme Brahman is both Vishnu and Shiva for they have both been declared as the Self of all things. They have also been described in their own scriptures as being flawless and replete with all divine virtues. (12-13a)

source:

http://www.pushtimarg.net/Download/Book/English/Balbodh.pdf

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by none other than my beloved and most respected friend GaneshPrasad

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Jai Ganesh

Re

(Srimad Bhagavatam is the ONLY text that clearly states:

'there is no cheating method in this scripture'

'this purana is spotless')

Let us see if you accept this.

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. Kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.

4.1/30 & 31

AS you willed, precisely so it must happen; it could not otherwise. For it was your will, O Bahmana- you, who are so true of resolve. We three (taken together) represent the truth on which you cotemplated. Now there will be born to you, may you be blessed, three sons embodying our rays, who will themselves be celebrated throughout the world; O dear sage, and shall spread your fame too.

4.6/42-46 Brahma said to Shiva: I know you to be the Ruler of the universe; for you are the same as the undifferentiated Brahma, etc

4.7/50-54 The lord said: The supreme cause of the universe, I am also Brahma (the creator) and Lord Shiva (the destroyer of the universe). I am the self, the lord and the witness, self effulgent and unqualified. Embracing my own Maya, consisting of the three gunas, it is I who create, protect and destroy the universe have assumed names appropriate to my functions, O Brahmana! It is in such a Brahman, the supreme sprit, who is one without a second, that the ignorant fool views Brahma, Rudra and other beings as distinct entities. Just as a man never conceives his own head, hands and other limbs as belonging to anyone else, even so he who is devoted to me does not regard his fellow creatures as distant from himself.

He who sees no difference between Us three (Brahma, Rudra and Myself)-who are identical in essence and the very selves of all living beings-attains peace, O Daksa.

8.7/21-35 Prajapati praying to Lord Shiva as supreme Brahman.

Read this with what Krishna says in BG. 10

Of Rudras I am Shanker.

we may begin to understand there is no contradiction

Jai Shree Krishna

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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BinduMadhav · June 3, 2005

I have looked at Vishvaroopa image many times and what do I see? I see Lord Hari's face in the prime position and all others around Him. So it means that Hari is Sarvottama and all others are demigods. That is all.

For true Vaishnavs, Lord Hari and Hara can never be the same. If you disagree, let's take a vote. The Advaitins don't have a choice but to accept Siva to be equal to Lord Vishnu. That is a saving grace for them.

BinduMadhav · June 3, 2005

{before i put my two cents i would like u ppl to have a glance of what other ppl have to say }

What I am seeing is that everyone keeps going round and round in circles, mentioning pretty much the same things, but never truly addressing the issue. Never mind what

The bottom line is this:

1. Lord Krishna makes it perfectly clear that He is the Supreme. All others are demigods, including Siva. Which means that Lord Hari is the Sarvottama. Do we all agree on this?

2. Lord Krishna also makes it crystal clear that worshipping lower gods will only result in attainment of that particular god's abode, not Vishnuloka, the Supreme Loka; once you go to Vaikuntha, one does not return. This is the true Moksha. Do we all agree on this?

3. The supreme goal of life is Moksha. All other Purusharthas - Kama, Artha and Dharma, in the increasing order of importance - are only aiding us to achieve Moksha, which means the abode of Sri Vishnu. Do we agree on this?

4. We all agree that Srimad Bhagavad-gita is the authority on our Shruti and therefore we cannot deny what is written in the Gita. Do we aree?

So, why do we want to worship Siva or any other demigod? Siva is a great Vaishnav and deserves our respect because we need to follow his example. But he is not the Supreme Purusha. He is just a god.

Now, let's not bring all other literature (like Swami Narayan) into the question. Or, just tell me that you folks don't accept the infallible stand of Srimad Bhagavad Gita.

June 3, 2005

Why don't you be happy with your beliefs?

Read this from Yajur Veda and be happier

YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

Hey, some one else is the step of Visnu and bolt of Indra.

June 3, 2005

***********

4. We all agree that Srimad Bhagavad-gita is the authority on our Shruti and therefore we cannot deny what is written in the Gita. Do we aree?

So, why do we want to worship Siva or any other demigod? Siva is a great Vaishnav and deserves our respect because we need to follow his example. But he is not the Supreme Purusha. He is just a god.

********

As usual, like in every other case, likes of you cross limits and defeat themselves.

If Gita is authority for you (for me it is), show us where it is stated that Siva is demi god?

June 3, 2005

Earn some punya by reading Bhagavatam

Bhagavatam Churning of the Ocean

17. The Lord appeared like a blackish cloud. He was dressed with yellow garments, His earrings shone on His ears like lightning, and His hair spread over His shoulders. He wore a garland of flowers, and His eyes were pinkish. With His strong, glorious arms, which award fearlessness throughout the universe, He took hold of Vasuki and began churning the ocean, using Mandara Mountain as a churning rod. When engaged in this way, the Lord appeared like a beautifully situated mountain named Indranila.

18. The fish, sharks, tortoises and snakes were most agitated and perturbed. The entire ocean became turbulent, and even the large aquatic animals like whales, water elephants, crocodiles and timingila fish [large whales that can swallow small whales] came to the surface. While the ocean was being churned in this way, it first produced a fiercely dangerous poison called halahala.

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

Please note: 19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

Repeat: all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva].

I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?

21. The prajapatis said: O greatest of all gods, Mahadeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

22. O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

Please note: You are the cause of bondage and liberation. Also note: Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you,

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

Note: Supreme Brahman

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue.

27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head.

28. O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gayatri are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart.

29. O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.

Please note: Your Lordship, Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.

30. O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance.

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Please note: the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

Repeat: even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

32. When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daksa-yajna, Tripurasura and the kalakuta poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you.

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

34. Even personalities like Lord Brahma and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible.

35. O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more.

Please note: O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more.

And please note all the time Lord Vishnu was also there.

19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

Ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?

YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

Some one is the bolt of Indra and the stepping of Vishnu. Who is that ONE?

June 3, 2005