Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

August 14, 2005

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NILGRIVA IS the sahasrAxAya PURUSA.If, Hri and Shri are consorts of Purusa then they are consorts of Nilgriva, since Nilgriva alone is visnave Visnu. Rama devi (Shri) is under the control of eternal linga rupi bhagwan Sambhu.

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this shows ur Supreme idiocy.

Purusha sukta itself says that Visnu(the Husband of Lakshmi) is the Supreme Purusha.

And Atanu fails to note that Rudra is just called as 'SahsrAksha' and not 'SahasrasIrsa'.

He fails to understand that even Indra is called 'SahasrAksha'(MahabhArata).

let him keep on blabbering.

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Brahma Samhita (Vaisnav literature) clearly mentions it.

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Don't quote texts which are not independent pramAnas. this Samhita was never known before 15th century. so keep it with urself.

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Your explanation also means that Visnu is a name of that purusa and is not that purusa actually.

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u have lost ur thinking capacity.

where did i say so? 'Purusho vai yagnah' means 'Purusha is called Yagna'.

'Yagno vai Visnuh' means 'Yagna is called Visnu'.

'Visnu is called Yagnah' and 'Yagna is called Visnu'.

unless u come out of ur stupid Griffith, u cannot understand the Vedas.

'Eko hi Rudro' was clearly explained by us Vaisnavas time and again but u still fail to understand. u did not counter them. but still u repeat the same wrong translation.

this exposes ur hypocrisy.

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Jabalyupanishhad of the Sama Veda is true.

sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH

sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH |

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but u fail to see that the very first verse of Jabalyopanishad says that Rudra gives Moksha thru 'Brahma TAraka' and Rama Rahasyopanishad clearly says'....sri ramo brahma tAkrakam'(1.6).

Thus, Rudra cannot give Moksha by himself. He does so by using 'RAma nAma'.

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I do not want to add indefinitely but Paingala also is true.

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so he gives judgements on Sruti. He says that those Srutis which he thinks help them r true. while he turns a blind eye on those verses which show that Rudra is not cleansed of sins and that he has no natural names.

also the verses from were clearly translated and expalined by Srinivasan. but u once again repeat ur same wrong interpretations. this exposes ur sheer hpcocrisy.

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I told you. Your mind is full of images of defeat and so your posts reflect again and again the questions of superiority, defeat etc.

That SOMA is primeval sacrifice is told by Rig Veda. Do you mean to say that Rig is defeated? You are evil minded.

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menaingless blabberings. u did not counter even a single point made by me in this context.

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Sorry. Vishnu is called Param Padam and not Param. Whereas Rudra is called ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

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this shows ur ignorance of Vedic passages.

Visnu is not called as 'param padam'.

first, the word is 'Paramam padam'.

second, the verse says 'Visnoh paramam padam'.

it means 'Paramam padam(Supreme Abode) of Visnu'.

in no way can u take it to mean 'Visnu is paramam padam'.

the Vibhakti - 'vishno' - means 'of Visnu/belonging to Visnu'. this was well explained. but u fail to understand.

u know neither philosophy nor sanskrit. so keep on blabbering till u get tired.

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But you know the problem? Do you know that there seems to be another Agni who is not just a devo but is Indra, Visnu, and Brahma?

RV Book 2 HYMN 1

tvamagna indro vRSabhaH satAmasi tvaM viSNururugAyo namasyaH

tvaM brahmA rayivid brahmaNas pate tvaM vidhartaHsacase purandhyA

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the same Shaivite tactic. quote only one verse. never give the context. nor their correct emaning. just twist its meaning to suit u.

first of all, Agni who is spoken here is not different from Agni mentioned in Aitareya. such an ineterpretation is nothing but expression of idiocy.

then why did u leave the 6th verse of the same hymn.

let us see the verse:

Rg veda

2-1-6

"tvamagne rudro asuro maho divastvaM shardho mArutaM pRkSa IshiSe |

tvaM vAtairaruNairyAsi shaMgayastvaM pUSA vidhataH pAsi nu tmanA ||"

NOTE: 'tvamagne RUDRO'

so, Rudra is also included in the list. u cannot argue that Rudra is the Agni mentioned here. don't spread ur ignorance to others.

then, the reason for calling Agni as all devatas is very clear. Agni takes the sacrifice offered to the various devas. Agni, by doing so, pleases the Devas due to which Devas grant boons to us. thus the Devas are worshipped thru Agni. as all the Devas are present in this sacrificial fire to take their part of sacrifice, Agni is said to be all the Devas.

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I know. But the same Upanishad clarifies beyond doubt who is that param brahman.

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the verse says,

"nArAyana parambrahmah".

Narayana(Visnu) is the Supreme Brahman. saying otherwise is gross stupidity.

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Yes. Narayanah is eko Rudra na dvitiya tastu

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see, now VAk has failed u(as u say for others). It is Narayana who is eko Rudro.

'Narayana' is the monopoly of Visnu. no other deity is referred by that name. 'Rudra' is not so. Thus Vianu is the one who is called as 'Rudra'. not otherwise.

even if u do not accept, that is the truth and it will not change for ur blabberings.

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Only very foolish and childish people believe that drinking a Juice, Indra becomes ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

You are such a foolish person, who has no spirituality. All your citations are acceptable to me. But can you accept the followings without abusing?

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now the greatest joke of the year. Atanu who does not even know the basics of Vedic interpretations but still gives interpretations and who considers Samhita as superior to other parts of Vedas, speaks about spirituality.

then the verses that u have quoted nowhere means that Soma is Rudradeva. then once again, u have quoted only 2 verses and have not quoted those verses which clearly indicate that Soma is the beverage.

the same site also has:

9.063.25 The brilliant purified Soma-juices are let fall amidst all praises.

9.063.27 The purified (juices) are poured forth from heaven and from the firmament upon the summit of the ground. [The summit of the ground: i.e., the raised place, the place of divine sacrifice, or yajn~a].

now read these verses. u r not superior to Sayana(an advaitin) or any other Acharya.

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Can you identify the ONE WITH THE THOUSAND EYES?

RV 9. 60. Soma Pavamana.

1. SING forth and laud with sacred song most active Pavamana, laud Indu who sees with thousand eyes.

2 Thee who hast thousand eyes to see, bearer of thousand burthens, they Have filtered through the fleecy cloth.

AND YOU FOOLISH FELLOW, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT A MERE JUICE IS THE PROGENITOR OF EARTH, HEAVEN, SURYA, AGNI, VISNU, AND INDRA?

Book 9 RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Do not demean your intelligence to support your foolish ego. Rig Veda is clear (only your ego, sticking to false beliefs, obstructs the truth).

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now this exposes ur hypocrisy and foolishness.

various verses show that Soma is a sacrifice offered in Yagnas. so, u claim that Soma is a deity. then is that deity sacrificed in Yagnas. infact, ur blabbering seems o have no limit.

as Soma pleases the Devas and bring them to us, it is called as the progenitor of Devas.

then 'ShasrAksha' does not mean that Soma is a deity or that it is Purusha.

as has been said, 'sahasrAksha' means thousand eyes. the bubbles of Soma juice are called as 'eyes' here.(in a poetic sense)

or else, the verse will contradict 'drink for Indra', 'sacrificial offering','in the wooden vessel', 'filters' etc.

if u fail to understand this simple thing, u r the most foolish person of the world.

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BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT, EVEN THE SACRIFICER BECOMES VISHNU.

YV i. 7. 5.

------ Headed by Visnu the gods won these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable; in that he takes the steps of Visnu the sacrificer becoming Visnu wins these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable.

“the sacrificer becoming Visnu wins these worlds”

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a great example of wrong translation. I will explain these things in my next post.

August 14, 2005

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BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT, EVEN THE SACRIFICER BECOMES VISHNU.

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no limits to ur wrong translation.

the phrase is 'viSnureva bhUtvA'

it means 'BECOMES LIKE VISNU'. not as u say 'becomes Visnu'.

the word is 'ViSnureva' and not just 'ViSnuh'.

so don't offer wrong translations.

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FURTHER COMPLICATIONS ARISE. SINCE AGNI IS THE PROTECTION OF THE SACRIFICE (VISNU).

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

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THE PROBLEMS AND COMPLICATIONS ARE WITH UR WRONG TRASLATIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS. THERE IS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER IN THE SUPREMACY OF VISNU.

let us see the verse u have cited.

as usual quote the first line(a) and jump to the seventh line(g). a classic example of Shaivite/smartha misinterpretation.

the verse praises various deities - Agni, Pushan, Saravati, Varuna etc.

then, the 5th line praises Varuna. the next lines are in praise of Varuna.

the verse says that 'Varuna has taken the protection function from Visnu.'

the previous line says that 'Varuna has derived strength from Angiras'.

but atanu just posts wrong translations of some English guy.

the translation given by me above is correct and is proved by the following verse:

Rg Veda

1-156-4

"tamasya rAjA varuNastamashvinA kratuM sacanta mArutasya vedhasaH |

dAdhAra dakSamuttamamaharvidaM vrajaM ca viSNuH sakhivAnaporNute ||"

Meaning:

"The royal Varuna and Asvins attain the function of protection(tam kratuM) of the creator of Maruts . That Visnu, with his companion(saki - Lakshmi), has the moksha sAmarthya to give moksha and makes the clouds to rain, seated upon the clouds."

if the companion is taken to be Indra, then the meaning would be 'to give a berth in heaven'.

anyway, the fact is that Varuna and Asvins attain the prtection function of Visnu.

here 'kratum' is also taken to mean as Yagna. then the meaning would be that by taking part in the yagna offered to Visnu, Varuna and Asvins attained protection function of Visnu.

so keeping in view the above verse, it is clear that Varuna is praised as the holder of protection function of Visnu.

but Atanu grossly misinterpretates the mantras.

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MORE PROBLEMS. SOME ONE ELSE IS THE HEART OF VISHNU.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

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PROBLEMS ARE WITH UR MISINTERPRETATIONS.

the context in which the praise is made is ignored by u.

here the offering, Ghee, is praised in the verses. the sacrificial offering is praised as the devas, the heart of Visnu. even the english translator, Mr.Keith, makes it clear in his translation.

the whole passage reads

"a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu, once hath Visnu stepped apart along thee, O vigorous one; with curds and ghee may prosperity be increased; may wealth come to me from this which is offered and enjoyed thou art the light for all men, milked from the dappled one."

NOTE:

'ONCE HATH VISNU STEPPED APART ALONG THEE, WITH CURDS AND GHEE MAY PROSPERITY BE INCREASED.'

GHEE IS OFFERED TO VISNU IN SACRIFICE. ONCE VISNU ACCEPTS THE OFFERING, OUR PROSPERITY IS INCREASED. GHEE IS CONSIDERED AS A FAVOURITE ITEM WHICH PLEASES THE DEVAS. THE VERSES ARE IN PRAISE OF GHEE. ATANU JUST TWISTS THE MEANING OF THE WHOLE VERSE. SHAME ON HIM.

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PROBLEMS KEEP PILING UP. VISNU SINGS AND LAUDS INDRA.

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the verse says that Visnu praises Indra. it does not mean in anyway that Visnu worships Indra.

Krishna praises Arjuna in Mahabharata but that does not mean that Krishna worships Arjuna.

try to use some common sense.

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AND YOU KNOW? THE GREATEST PROBLEM IS THAT THE GREAT INDRA IS GREAT WHEN HE DRINKS SOMA.

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the verse does not say that INDRA ATTAINS POWER ONLY BY DRINKING SOMA.

Soma juice is offered in sacrifice to Indra. by drinking the offering, Indra gains strength. This is what is explained in Gita by Lord Krishna that by offering Yagnas humans please the Devas(by giving them food & strength) and in return they offer them boons.

also, this in no way means that Soma is Rudradeva. Rudra is not s drink and if it is so then he has been digested by the Devas. don't blabber whatever that comes to ur filthy mind.

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AND YOU KNOW? THE GREAT INDRA COMES FORTH UNDER THE LOFTY LEADERSHIP OF RUDRA.

YV iv. i. 2.

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d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

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this will in no way confer Supremacy to Rudradeva.

infact, Yajurveda says that 'by having Visnu as their leader, Devas won the whole universe'.

then, the verse quoted above by u,Atanu, refers to Ashvamedha Yagna.

the horse is asked to run across all the places gaining victory.

Indra is invoked to help the Yajamana's horse to come victorious. then the horse(along with army) is asked to trample upon the enemy under the leadership of Rudra.

the verses address the horse as 'You' and not any other deity/person.

so let Atanu read the Sanskrit verses and also try to understand the context of the verses. only then can he arrive at the true meaning of the verses.

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YOU KNOW? RUDRA HAS ENTERED ALL BEINGS.

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

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it has been already explained by us that these verses refer to Visnu. BhAllaveya Sruti supports our interpretation.

so don't keep on posting the same verses inspite of ur interpretations being proved wrong time and again.

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AND YOU KNOW? AGNI, IS ALL GODS.

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well, this point has been already explained by me.

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RAVI YOU HAVE CHURNED THE OCEAN AND RAISED KALKUTA. TILL YOU KNOW THE AMRTA – SOMA (VISNU), YOU WILL YOURSELF DIE BY THE KALKUTA.

THE DAY YOU REALIZE SOMA, SHIVA WOULD TAKE THE KALKUTA AND HAND OVER IMMORTALITY (SOMA) TO YOU.

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once Agin, pointless blabberings.

infact, atanu, u are the one who is clouded by wrong thoughts and unless and until u understand that only NArayana is the Supreme BRahman and that only He si capable of granting Moksha by Himself can u attain MOksha. or else, u will remain one of those dull-minded persons who worship other devas(as Krishna told in BG).

August 14, 2005

UNLESS U ANSWER THE FOLLOWING POINTS, UR ARGUMENTS STAND DEFEATED BY THEMSELVES.

Paingi Shruti:

`sarvotkarshhe devadevasya vishhNor-

mahAtAtparyaM naiva chAnyatra satyam.h |

avAntaraM tatparatvaM tadanyat.h

sarvAgamAnAM purushhArthastato.ataH ||' iti paiN^gishrutiH |

"The Supremacy of Vishnu, the Deity-of-deities, is the supreme purport, and not otherwise -- this is true; other purports than this of all Agama-s are inferior, because of the supreme purushhArtha," says the Paingi-shruti.

Atanu,

u have not even once countered this verse.

the Supremacy of Visnu is the Supreme purport.

this very verse has been quoted by Madhvacharya in His Brahma Sutra Bhashya to prove the Supremacy of Visnu.

show a single verse which says that Supremacy of Rudra is the Supreme purport, if u can.

ALL UR ARGUMENTS STAND DEFEATED BY THIS SINGLE VERSE.

U SKIP THE IMPORTANT POINTS.

TRY TO ANSWER THE ABOVE VERSE AND ALSO

'NARAYANA PARAMBRAHMAH......ATMA NARAYANA PARAH||"

RUDRA IS NOT CALLED AS PARAM BRAHMAH ANYWHERE IN THE SRUTI.

BUT SHATAPATHA SAYS THAT

'RUDRA IS NOT CLEANSED OF SINS'.

HOW CAN SUCH RUDRA BE PARAMATMA?

the following is a quotation from Bhaallaveya shruti. this is also accepted as a pramaana by prominent Achaaryaas and has been often quoted by them.

`nAmAni vishvA.abhi na santi loke yadAvirAsIdanR^itasya sarvam.h |

nAmAni sarvAni yamAvishanti taM vai viShNuM paramamudAharanti |'

iti bhAllaveyashrutiH |

Which says that only VISNU IS THE PRIMARY REFERRENT OF ALL NAMES.

THESE VERY LINES ARE CITED BY MADHVACHARYA IN HIS BRAHMA SUTRA BHASHYA.

THIS IS A CHARACTERISTIC FEATURE OF THE SUPREME BRAHMAN AND VISNU IS IDENTIFIED HERE AS THE PRIMARY REFERRANT OF ALL NAMES. THUS VISNU IS IDENTIFIED AS THE SUPREME BRAHMAN.

thus when we say that 'Rudra','Shiva','Shambhu' etc refer to VIshnu when they r used to speak about the Supreme Lord, it is based on Sruti itself.

THEREFORE NOTE THAT WHEN WE SAY 'EKO HI RUDRO...' REFERS TO VISNU, IT IS BASED ON THIS SRUTI. WE SAY THAT 'RUDRA' IN SUCH PLACES REFERS TO VISNU. IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND IS IN TANDEM WITH THIS SRUTI QUOTED.

TRY TO SHOW A SINGLE VERSE WHICH SAYS THAT RUDRA IS THE PRIMARY REFERRANT OF ALL NAMES.

ATANU,

IF U DO NOT COUNTER "ALL THE ARGUMENTS" MADE BY ME IN THIS POST, ALL UR ARGUMENTS STAND DEFEATED BY THIS VERY POST.

LET US WAIT AND SEE.

"nArAyanAt param nAsti, nastu nArAyana samAna"

August 14, 2005

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Atanu's blabberings

this shows ur Supreme idiocy.

don't blabber whatever that comes to ur filthy mind.

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Your language is sweet. You think that by being uncouth you will demonstrate Vishnu’s supremacy? I do not lose anything baby, only you come out as uncouth, angry and defeated.

As usual all verses that proves you wrong are “wrong translation” or “they refer to Vishnu” or “Atanu is foolish”. That is characteristic. What else you have? Nothing. I will dwell on the essentials only.

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'Eko hi Rudro' was clearly explained by us Vaisnavas time and again but u still fail to understand. u did not counter them. but still u repeat the same wrong translation.

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You think that when Veda talks of Ghrita, it is talking about Ghee. When Veda talks of Soma flowing, you think that it is a beverage. Poor understanding.

Eko hi Rudro simply means Eko Hi Rudra.

Rudra vai Purusha means “Rudra is Purusha”

Sarva vai Rudra means All is Rudra

Simple. No serpent like arguments required. EKO is not a noun. Presence of ‘na Dvitiya’ simply indicates that it is ONE and there is no SECOND.

AND EVEN IF EKO IS A NOUN THAT NOUN IS RUDRA_SHIVA WHO IS PARAM OF PARAM.

SVET UP. Chapter Six

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AMND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

AND EKO RUDRA DEFINITELY REFERS TO RUDRA SHIVA AS BELOW WHO IS PARAM OF PARAM.

Chapter 4

maayaa.n tu prakR^iti.n vidyaanmaayina.n cha maheshvaram.h .

tasyavayavabhuutaistu vyaapta.n sarvamida.n jagat.h .. 10..

10 Know, then, that prakriti is maya and that Great God (maheswaram) is the Lord of maya. The whole universe is filled with objects which are parts of His being.

yo yoni.n yonimadhitishhThatyeko

yasminnida.m sa.n cha vichaiti sarvam.h .

tamiishaana.n varada.n devamiiDya.n

nichaayyemaa.n shaantimatyantameti .. 11..

11 By truly realising Him who, though non—dual, dwells in prakriti, both in its primary and in its secondary aspect and in Whom this whole world comes together and dissolves—by truly realising Him Who is the Lord, the bestower of blessings, the Adorable God, one attains the supreme peace.

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha

vishvaadhipo rudro maharshhiH .

hiraNyagarbhaM pashyata jaayamaana.n

sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 12..

12 He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

yo devaanaamadhipo

yasminllokaa adhishritaaH .

ya iishe asya dvipadashchatushhpadaH

kasmai devaaya havishhaa vidhema .. 13..

13 He who is the sovereign Lord of the gods, in whom the worlds find their support, who rules over all two—footed and four—footed beings—let us serve that God, radiant and blissful, with an oblation.

suuxmaatisuuxma.n kalilasya madhye

vishvasya srashhThaaramanekaruupam.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n shaantimatyantameti .. 14..

14 By realising Him who is subtler than the subtlest who dwells in the midst of the chaos, who is the Creator of all things and is endowed with many forms, who is the non—dual Pervader of the universe Shiva — by realising Him one attains the supreme peace.

sa eva kaale bhuvanasya goptaa

vishvaadhipaH sarvabhuuteshhu guuDhaH .

yasmin.h yuktaa brahmarshhayo devataashcha

tameva.n GYaatvaa mR^ityupaashaa.nshchhinatti .. 15..

15 It is He who, in proper time, becomes the custodian of the universe and the sovereign of all; who conceals Himself in all beings as their inner Witness; and in whom the sages and the deities are united. Verily, by knowing Him one cuts asunder the fetters of death.

ghR^itaat paraM maNDamivaatisuuxma.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n sarvabhuuteshhu guuDham.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa devaM muchyate sarvapaashaiH .. 16..

16 He who knows Param, who is all Bliss, extremely subtle, like the film that rises to the surface of clarified butter and is hidden in all beings—he who knows the radiant Deity, Shiva, the sole Pervader of the universe, is released from all his fetters.

AND YOU WILL SEE ABOVE THAT GHRITA WHO IS PARAM AND SUUXMA and ESSENCE OF EVERYTHING.

Chapter 5

bhaavagraahyamaniiDaakhyaM bhaavaabhaavakara.n shivam.h .

kalaasargakara.n deva.n ye viduste jahustanum.h .. 14..

14 Those who know Him, who can be realised by the pure heart, who is called incorporeal, who is the cause of creation and destruction, Shivam, the creator of the sixteen parts—those who know the luminous Lord are freed from embodiment.

Chapter 3

ya eko jaalavaaniishata iishaniibhiH

sarvaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

ya evaika udbhave sambhave cha

ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 1..

eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale

sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

3.1 The one Lord rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal.

3.2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

I feel sorry for you that you are stuck with Puranic lore and shruti that do not belong to Vedas. And you are stuck with wrong translations, like where ‘anadimat’ is translated as “under my control” and not “without a beginning”.

Very poor you are. I know what you will say. “All these refer to Visnu”. Poor fellow.

But let us see further then:

6.9 na tasya kashchit.h patirasti loke

na cheshitaa naiva cha tasya liN^gam.h .

sa kaaraNa.n karaNaadhipaadhipo

na chaasya kashchijjanitaa na chaadhipaH ..

6.9 He has no master in the world, no ruler, nor is there even a sign of Him by which He can be inferred. He is the cause, the Lord of the lord of the organs; and He is without progenitor or controller.

HE IS WITHOUT A PROGENTITOR. He has no janitaa.

And compare this with:

RV 9.096.05 sómaH pavate janitaá matiinaáM janitaá divó janitaá pRthivyaáH

janitaágnér janitaá suúryasya janiténdrasya janitótá víSNoH

RV 9.096.05 The Soma flows, the generator of holy hymns, the generator of heaven, the generator of the earth, the generator of Agni, the generator of the sun, the generator of Indra and Vis.n.u.

Visnu has a janitaa.

THOUGH IT MAY BE VERY PAINFUL BUT I WILL SUGGEST (AS A FRIEND) TO THROW AWAY YOUR BLINDS WITH MANLY STRENGTH AND I SUGGEST THAT YOU DO NOT TAKE RECOURSE TO ABUSES. OR SAY THAT SHRUTI IS WRONG.

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Visnu is not called as 'param padam'.

first, the word is 'Paramam padam'.

second, the verse says 'Visnoh paramam padam'.

it means 'Paramam padam(Supreme Abode) of Visnu'.

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Yes the Abode – the body wherein Param of Param (Mahesvara) resides. Param and Paramam Padam are not the same.

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the verse says,

"nArAyana parambrahmah".

Narayana(Visnu) is the Supreme Brahman. saying otherwise is gross stupidity.

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And if Vishnu is Narayana then Rudra is Maha Narayana – para of param Brahman. You understand?

Since not only Narayana but all deities referred in the Maha Narayana Upanishad is Rudra as below.

Maha Narayana Upanishad

sarvo vai rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|

purusho vai rudrassan maho namo astu|

visvam bhUtam bhuvanam chitram bahudhA jAtham

jAyamAnanchayat|sarvo hyesha rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|"

Know the Lord of Lords, the Lord of Brahman and Lord of the Self.

*******

then the verses that u have quoted nowhere means that Soma is Rudradeva. then once again, u have quoted only 2 verses and have not quoted those verses which clearly indicate that Soma is the beverage

************.

Thousand verses do not negate the verses that say that Soma is Adyagna, the energy of the Lord, Soma is Indra, And Soma is the generator of Visnu, Indra, Surya, Earth, and Heaven.

Soma is not Rudra-Shiva but Soma is a power of Him, like Adityas and Rudras are; like Vishnu and Indra are.

Soma is the socket of Rudra’s bow.

*************

“MORE PROBLEMS. SOME ONE ELSE IS THE HEART OF VISHNU.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu, “

the context in which the praise is made is ignored by u.

here the offering, Ghee, is praised in the verses. ------

the whole passage reads

********************

Truly I admire you. Ghee is the heart of Vishnu.

GHEE IS HEART OF VISNU. HA. HA. HA. HA. HA.

********************************************************************

PROBLEMS KEEP PILING UP. VISNU SINGS AND LAUDS INDRA.

the verse says that Visnu praises Indra. it does not mean in anyway that Visnu worships Indra. Krishna praises Arjuna in Mahabharata but that does not mean that Krishna worships Arjuna. try to use some common sense.

*****************

Did I say worship? Why you are so sensitive? It shows deep rooted inferiority complex. Krishna does not sing and laud praises of Arjuna. Does He? Never. But Vishnu 'sings and lauds' praise of Indra.

***************************************

“AND YOU KNOW? THE GREAT INDRA COMES FORTH UNDER THE LOFTY LEADERSHIP OF RUDRA.

YV iv. i. 2.

------.

d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;”

*************************************

then, the verse quoted above by u,Atanu, refers to Ashvamedha Yagna.

the horse is asked to run across all the places gaining victory.

-----------

the verses address the horse as 'You' and not any other deity/person.

------.

**********************

"The verses address the horse as YOU". HA. HA. HA.

You are dangerous to yourself; and to none other. The full verse is given below.

YV iv. i. 2.

a This bond of order they grasped

At their assemblies in ages gone by, the sages;

Therewith the gods mastered the pressed (juice)--

In the Saman of order proclaiming the stream.

b Swiftly run hither, O steed,

Along the most extended space;

In the sky is thy highest birth,

In the atmosphere thy navel, on the earth thy birthplace.

c Yoke ye two the ass,

In this course, O ye of mighty wealth,

Which beareth Agni, serving us.

d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

The horse of Asvamedha yagna is this steed who has birth in the sky and who is running in the space extended by Visnu? You act as a pandit, which you are not. You are a fake guy. It is sin to argue with you.

You should know that in Vedas and Upanishads “HORSE” is the mind (Indra – controller of Indriyas who are the maruts). While Indriyas are under control of Visnu-Indra, the mind needs Soma for energy and the leadership of Rudra.

********************************

YOU KNOW? RUDRA HAS ENTERED ALL BEINGS.

“yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu”

It has been already explained by us that these verses refer to Visnu. BhAllaveya Sruti supports our interpretation.

so don't keep on posting the same verses inspite of ur interpretations being proved wrong time and again.

*********************

Oh! When did BhAllaveya Sruti take birth? Do not refer to something which is not there in the Vedas let alone the Samhitas.

Your proofs are all goofs.

**************8

UNLESS U ANSWER THE FOLLOWING POINTS, UR ARGUMENTS STAND DEFEATED BY THEMSELVES.

Paingi Shruti:

`sarvotkarshhe devadevasya vishhNor-

mahAtAtparyaM naiva chAnyatra satyam.h |

avAntaraM tatparatvaM tadanyat.h

sarvAgamAnAM purushhArthastato.ataH ||' iti paiN^gishrutiH |

"The Supremacy of Vishnu, the Deity-of-deities, is the supreme purport, and not otherwise -- this is true; other purports than this of all Agama-s are inferior, because of the supreme purushhArtha," says the Paingi-shruti.

***************

This is what Paingi says:

pai~Ngalopanishhat.h .. shukla_yajurvediiya

iishaadhishhThitaavaraNashaktito rajodriktaa mahadaakhyaa vikshepashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n yattaddhiraNyagarbhachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa mahattattvaabhimaanii

spashhTaaspashhTavapurbhavati . hiraNyagarbhaadhishhThitavikshepashaktitastamodriktaaha~Nkaaraabhidhaa

sthuulashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n

yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati .

1-5.From the power of concealment controlled by Isha arose the Power of Projection called Mahat. What is reflected in it is the consciousness of Hiranyagarbha. He has the conceit of ownership as regards Mahat and has a body partly manifest and partly unmanifest.

I-6. From the projective power controlled by Hiranyagarbha arose the gross power called the ego, with the preponderance of Tamas. What was reflected in it was the consciousness of Virat. That Virat who has conceit in the Ego, a manifest body, and is the Chief Person, Vishnu is the protector of all gross things. From that Self (Virat) arose ether; from the ether, air; from air, fire; from fire, water; from water, earth. These five root-elements are composed of the three Gunas.

End of Citation

“THAT VIRAT WHO HAS CONCEIT IN THE EGO, A MANIFEST BODY, AND IS THE CHIEF PERSON, VISHNU

BUT WE KNOW THAT THE REAL NATURE OF JIVA IS BRAHMAN.

***********

“TRY TO SHOW A SINGLE VERSE WHICH SAYS THAT RUDRA IS THE PRIMARY REFERRANT OF ALL NAMES.”

*********

It has been already shown that Shata Rudriya (which is in THE SAMHITA) gives the names of all gods as well as non-gods that Lord becomes. Rudra of Samhitas is the primary referent and what is in Puranas is secondary referent to keep impure ones like you at bay.

Even if a thousand proofs are given then also you will be the same blind person. What I write is for others. I just give a few names that show that Rudranama includes all names.

NAMAH PARYAYA CHAVARYAYA CHA

SALUTATIONS TO PARA AND TO SAPARA.

namo rohitAya sthapataye vR^ixANAM pataye namaH || 9 ||

Salutations to the red One, to the Lord, (sthapataye) and to the protector of trees (vR^ixANAM pataye).

salutations to the STHAPATAYE

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Namo astu nilagrivaya sahasrakshaya midhushe|

Atho you asya sattvano ham tebhyo karan namah||

Pramuncha dhanvanastva mubhayorartni yorjyam

yascha te hasta isavah para ta bhagavo vapa

SALUTATIONS TO BHAGAWAN YOU VILOHITA AND NILAGRIVAYA SAHASRAKSHAYA MIDHUSHE.

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who shower wealth and who are the heart of the gods.

SALUTATIONS TO THE SPARKLING HEART OF THE GODS.

Namah ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo, Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe (VISVARUPA) bhyascha vo namo, Namo bhavaya cha rudraya cha, Namah sharvaya cha pashupatayou cha, Namo nilagrivaya cha shiti kanthaya cha, Namah sahasrakshaya cha shatadhanvane cha (INDRA), Namo giri shaya cha sipivishtaya cha (VISHNU), middhushta (PARJANYA) maya ceshumate cha, Namo hrasvaya cha vamanaya (VISHNU) cha, Namo Agriyaya (ONE BEFORE BEGINNING) cha prathamaya (THE FIRST) cha, Nama Ashave (ALL PERVADING) chajiraya (SWIFT) cha, Namo jyoushthaya (SENIOR) cha kanishthaya (JUNIOR) cha, Namah purvajaya (BORN BEFORE ALL) chaparajaya (BORN LAST) cha, Namo yamyaya (YAMA) cha, kshemyaya (KHSEMA) cha, Nama shlokyaya (SHLOKA) chavasanyaya cha, Namah shravaya (SOUND) cha pratisravaya cha, Namah shrutaya (PRESENT IN SHRUTI) cha shrutasenaya cha, Namo vastavyaya cha vastupaya (VASTOSPATI) cha, Namah somaya (SA_UMA, INDU) cha Rudraya cha, Namastamraya charunaya (SURYA) cha, Nama shangaya (DELIGHTER) cha pashupatayou (PASUPATI) cha, Nama ugraya cha bhimaya cha, Namo hantre cha haniyase cha (HARA), Nama staraya(PRANAVA; OM), Namash shambhave (DELIGHTER) cha mayo bhave cha, Namah shankaraya cha mayaskaraya cha (DELIGHTER HERE AND IN THE OTHER WORLD), Namah Shivaya cha shivataraya cha (AUSPICIOUS AND MOST AUSPICIOUS), Namah paryaya (PARA) chavaryaya (SAPARA) cha, Namah prataranaya chottaranaya (LIBERATOR OF SINS AND SAMSARA), Nama ataryaya chaladyaya cha (JIVA)

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo (SPARKLING HEART OF THE GODS)

Namo vikshina kebhyo

Salutations to you, the undecaying and who is in the hearts of the Gods.

Namo vichinvakte bhyo

Salutations to you, who search and examine the good and bad that of each and who is in the hearts of the Gods.

Namo anir hatebhyo

SALUTATION TO THE SINLESS WHO IS IN THE HEARTS OF THE GODS.

Namoh Namoh.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

Lord of Lords Mahesvara you are the I in every one.

August 16, 2005

dear atanu,

u do not seem to realise that Paingi Shruti(a.k.a Paingi Rahasya Shruti) is different from Painglopanishad.

***********************************************************************

I feel sorry for you that you are stuck with Puranic lore and shruti that do not belong to Vedas.

***********************************************************************

i have not even once quoted from any Purana. i don't consider Puranas as independent pramanas. infact they r not. only u have quoted from Bhagavatam and brahma Samhita. so don't twist the truth.

and u r so ignorant of Vedas that u say that Sruti do not belong to Vedas. 'Sruti' refers to Vedic mantras.

just because u do not know BhAllaveya, Paingi etc , it does not mean that they do not belong to Vedas. so keep ur ignorance with urself.

********************************************************************

AND EVEN IF EKO IS A NOUN THAT NOUN IS RUDRA_SHIVA WHO IS PARAM OF PARAM

AND EKO RUDRA DEFINITELY REFERS TO RUDRA SHIVA AS BELOW WHO IS PARAM OF PARAM.

**********************************************************************

learn Sanskrit and Vedas from a Guru. until then u can never ever understand the Vedic concepts.

without even showing a single proof, Atanu says that 'eko'(noun) is Rudra himself. his own imagination. no proof at all.

'Sruti' suffers torture at this person's hands.

and BhAllaveya is clear. also it has been quoted by MadhvachArya. therefore, it is no interpolation.

the Lord who is spoken about in SvetAshvatAra is Visnu. it is clear from 3 points:

1. He is the father of Brahma(SubAla, nArAyana, Mahopanishads clearly say that Visnu(nArAyana) is the creator of Brahma).

2. He is Purusha of Purusha Sukta (Tai.Aranyaka says Purusha is Lakshmipati and Hree(BhUmi)pati - clear indication of Visnu) .

3. BhAllaveya sruti

4. Paingi Sruti(Supremacy of Visnu is the Supreme purport).

*************************************************************************

AND YOU WILL SEE ABOVE THAT GHRITA WHO IS PARAM AND SUUXMA and ESSENCE OF EVERYTHING.

*************************************************************************

sheer ignorance. read ur transaltion itself

"16 He who knows Param, who is all Bliss, extremely subtle, like the film that rises to the surface of clarified butter and is hidden in all beings—he who knows the radiant Deity, Shiva, the sole Pervader of the universe, is released from all his fetters."

Ghrita = clarified butter(ghee).

it is used as an example for the subtleness of ParamAtma.

Ghrita is not called as ParamAtma.

u show ur ignorance time and again and thereby prove that u r unfit to argue on Vedas.

*************************************************************************

Very poor you are. I know what you will say. “All these refer to Visnu”. Poor fellow

************************************************************************

u r the most poor fellow.

u r unable to prove that Rudra is ParamAtma. for that u have to prove that those verses that praise Visnu as paramAtma actually refer to Rudra. doing so is not possible. so keep on brooding.

but we give apt reasons for our translation and say that 'Rudra' refers to Visnu.(bhAllaveya)

continue ur tirade as far as u can.

*************************************************************************

And you are stuck with wrong translations, like where ‘anadimat’ is translated as “under my control” and not “without a beginning”.

**************************************************************************

ur 'Visnu dvesha' has made u blind. i have nowhere said that. and unless the context of a mantra is given, translation cannot be made. u fail to understand such things.

SvEtAshvatAra praises Visnu and Visnu alone.

subAla upanishad says :

'esha sarvabhUtAntarAtmA apahatapApmA divyo deva eko nArAyanah|'

VISNU IS SARVA BHUTANTARATMA. NOWHERE IS SHIVA PRAISED SO. RUDRA'S PERVADING NATURE IS LIMITED. BUT VISNU IS ALL PERVADING.

************************************************************************

And if Vishnu is Narayana then Rudra is Maha Narayana – para of param Brahman. You understand?

**************************************************************************

PURE UNADULDERATED IGNORANCE OF ATANU IS EXPOSED IN THE ABOVE LINES.

no one can be sperior to Param Brahman. even if Atanu considers so, then let him show a vedic verse says that Rudra is superior to Parambrahman.

if Atanu's argument is to be accepted then the whole 'BRahma Sutras' become wrong. so Atanu is more intelligent than Veda Vyasa?

'Brahma Sutra' is a part of Perasthanatraya and it cannot be false at any cost. Atanu does not know these things. so he keeps on blabbering happily.

now let Atanu learn a verse from NArAyana Upanishad:

"nishkalo niranjano nirvikalpo nirAkkyAt shoddho deva eko nArAyanah| na dvitIyostikashchit|"

EKO NARAYANA NA DVITIYOSTIKASHCHIT.

"ONLY NARAYANA AND NO SECOND PERSON CAN EVER BE'.

but Atanu will turn a blind eye towards this verse.

'Narayana' is an exclusive monopoly of Visnu.

now Atanu says that there can be only one 'eko'.

then, it must be either Rudra or Visnu.

but 'Narayana' cannot refer to anyone else. 'Rudra' can refer to other deities as it is not a monopoly.

hence, the truth is Narayana alone is the Supreme Lord.

it is for this reason(speciality of 'Narayana') that Vedapurusha praises only the 'Narayana' shabda vAchya as 'Parambrahman' to clear all doubts that may arise in the minds of the readers.

but Atanu will turn deaf ears and blind eyes towards this truth.

let him continue till he wishes to.

***************************************************************************

Visnu has a janitaa.

THOUGH IT MAY BE VERY PAINFUL BUT I WILL SUGGEST (AS A FRIEND) TO THROW AWAY YOUR BLINDS WITH MANLY STRENGTH AND I SUGGEST THAT YOU DO NOT TAKE RECOURSE TO ABUSES. OR SAY THAT SHRUTI IS WRONG.

***********************************************************************************

oh! once again brandishing the same verses with their wrongf translation and wrong interpretations.

anyway, I never say that Shruti is wrong. only u r doing that time and again by not accepting Shatapatha, BhAllaveya and Paingi Sruti.

also, u do interpret Painglopanishad verses wrongly. u fail to understand that PrAdhAn Purusha cannot be a created person or that Visnu is not shown to have a birth in Painglopanishad. (already explained by Srinivasan).

also, dear atanu, u abused Saranathan in an earlier thread 'Narayana is the Supreme' in an even more harsher way. so u deserve such abuses now. bear them.

***********************************************************************

Thousand verses do not negate the verses that say that Soma is Adyagna, the energy of the Lord, Soma is Indra, And Soma is the generator of Visnu, Indra, Surya, Earth, and Heaven.

*************************************************************************

nothing but ur own speculation. i can't help but laugh at ur ignorance and adamant nature. most of ur arguments r just like the above passage. pure speculation.

**************************************************************************

Soma is not Rudra-Shiva but Soma is a power of Him, like Adityas and Rudras are; like Vishnu and Indra are.

Soma is the socket of Rudra’s bow.

****************************************************************************

so now Soma has become the energy of Rudra.

u fail to understand that the bow was created by all the devas (for tripura samhara) and only after that was it decided that Rudra must shoot the arrow. therefore the bow was not made for Rudra.

also, the bow was used only once and even then Rudra asked a boon to become Pasupathi which shows his inferior position.

the Supreme Lord need not have boon from anyone to become Pasupathi for He will be the Lord of everything(including animals) by His nature.

thus it is clear that Rudra is not the Supreme Lord.

but u won't understand. so keep on shouting.

August 16, 2005

A passage(1.5.2) in the Taittariya Aranyaka starts with

'tasyendro vahmrirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces) and thus conveys an incident where Indra severes the head of Rudra.

Sruti calls even Agni as indestructible. so such praises for Agni, Rudra etc. are aupachaarika and they mean that they are indestructible by humans. and nothing else, for this verse clearly says that Indra severed the heads of Rudra deva.

August 16, 2005

that BhAllaveya Sruti is an absolute pramAna and part of Vedas is proved by the following:

Shatapatha Brahmana

2.1.4.6

tádu hovaaca bhaallaveyah- |

note it, Atanu. BhAllaveya is cited by Shatapatha itself. because u never heard about it, BhAllaveya cannot be termed as unvedic.

think and learn before u put forth ur arguments.

August 16, 2005

*********************************************************************

Rudra vai Purusha means “Rudra is Purusha”

Sarva vai Rudra means All is Rudra

*************************************************************************

'Rudra vai Purusha' - this cannot be a typo.

the actual line is 'Purusho vai rudra'

now, it will be clear to the readers that Atanu is twisting the mantras to suit his thoughts.

Atanu,

only u r twisting Vedic passages and thereby torturing the Veda Purusha. know it for sure.

the Vaisnavas never do it. for they consider Vedas as the breath of the Lord, they never twist the mantras as u do.

August 16, 2005

A passage(1.5.2) in the Taittariya Aranyaka starts with

'tasyendro vahmrirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces)

it continues,

'tasmAdyah sa pravargyena yagnena yajate| rudrasya sa shirah pratidadhAti| nainaM rudra Aruko bhavati|'

(with that(Rudra's head), Indra did the pravargya sacrifice(which is done prior to Soma sacrifice) and did the Yagna. It(Yagna) gave back Rudra's head. Hence Rudra came to have a tawny colour).

the above translation was made by Bhatta BhAskara. note that he was neither a Vaisnava nor a Shaiva. u ask for the translations of such men. Bhaskara is one such. infact he is the author of the oldest commentory on Vedas.

August 16, 2005

******'Rudra vai Purusha' - this cannot be a typo.

the actual line is 'Purusho vai rudra'********

Good intent to open your hooded eyes.

Sarva vai Rudra: All is Rudra. Rudra is all.Rudra Vai Sarva.

Eko Hi Rudro na dvittiya tastu

Rudra is purusha. Purusha is Rudra.

ALL and ONE includes everything, including your clouded mind.

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18..

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; shiva (the benign) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii ..

Rest is all hogwash. Only Savitar and Savitri are the eternal truth.

Om Namah Sivayya Namah Sivatarayaa

Those who have birth from Soma are not eternal. They come back.

August 16, 2005

I know that Atanu will try to twist the meaning of the above verse or will just brandish some Englishman's translation or else will just pop out a dictionary and try to make meaning as per his wish without even knowing as to how the word is used.

let him do whatever he wants. poor guy!! he has do these things to keep his arguments afloat.

but that will not change the truth that has been clearly exposed by me in the previous posts.

also, Atanu, u have failed to show a single verse which calls Shiva as 'Parambrahmah'.

why they don't even say 'rudrah brahmah'.

thus, ur arguments have proved to be futile.

keep on continuing the same defeated arguments and the act of copying and pasting wrong translations till u get tired of them.

August 16, 2005

Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevayaa Namah

*****ur 'Visnu dvesha' has made u blind. i have nowhere said that. and unless the context of a mantra is given, translation cannot be made. u fail to understand such things.**********

Lord, you know this praja of yours (who has taken your name and taken arrogance from elsewhere) is not true.

You know that I do not see any difference in YOU WHO IS ONE AND WHO HAS NO SECOND. Ravi does not see at all. And it will be fear, dvesa and every other ills for Ravi (his mind).

I believe Atma is uncuttable and unpartitionable.

Despite this post, Lord, I have no dvesa. You are the witness.

Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevayya Namah

Om Namah Sivayya

Om Om Om

August 16, 2005

14.4 suuxmaatisuuxma.n kalilasya madhye

vishvasya srashhThaaramanekaruupam.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n shaantimatyantameti .. 14..

4.14 By realising Him who is subtler than the subtlest who dwells in the midst of the chaos, who is the Creator of all things and is endowed with many forms, who is the non—dual Pervader of the universe Shiva — by realising Him one attains the supreme peace.

4.16 ghR^itaat paraM maNDamivaatisuuxma.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n sarvabhuuteshhu guuDham.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa devaM muchyate sarvapaashaiH .. 16..

4.16 He who knows Param, who is all Bliss, extremely subtle, like the film that rises to the surface of clarified butter and is hidden in all beings—he who knows the radiant Deity, Shiva, the sole Pervader of the universe, is released from all his fetters.

August 16, 2005

****************************************************************************

The horse of Asvamedha yagna is this steed who has birth in the sky and who is running in the space extended by Visnu? You act as a pandit, which you are not. You are a fake guy. It is sin to argue with you.

You should know that in Vedas and Upanishads “HORSE” is the mind (Indra – controller of Indriyas who are the maruts). While Indriyas are under control of Visnu-Indra, the mind needs Soma for energy and the leadership of Rudra.

****************************************************************************

Atanu,

u fail to see the context.

let us see.

these mantras are recited during Ashvamedha.

is the horse that runs during Ashvamedha - mind?

is mind made to run across the land?

u fail to see the context.

then, it is really a great joke to hear u speak about metaphors.

also the mantra does not say 'space extended by Visnu.'

'extended space' means entire land. if u don't accept, it is ur fault and not mine.

then, arguing with me is a sin?

hmmmm. infact, i have to say that arguing with u is a sin for u torture the Vedas by giving wrong translations and imaginations as Sruti vakyas.

**********************************************************************

It has been already shown that Shata Rudriya (which is in THE SAMHITA) gives the names of all gods as well as non-gods that Lord becomes. Rudra of Samhitas is the primary referent and what is in Puranas is secondary referent to keep impure ones like you at bay.

*************************************************************************

once again brandishing the same verses without knowing their original meaning or context.

Sata Rudriya does not say that Rudra is 'Sarva Shabda vAchya'.

infact, it does not contain the name 'Visnu' or 'nArAyana'.

then u might say

"Namo giri shaya cha sipivishtaya cha (VISHNU), middhushta (PARJANYA) maya ceshumate cha, Namo hrasvaya cha vamanaya (VISHNU) cha"

but u still fail to see the whole context.

the verse says 'hrasvaya'(small), 'vamanaya'(dwarf).

the word 'hrasvaya' does not refer to any deity. how can then 'vamana' be taken to mean Visnu when it is clear that 'vamana' does mean 'dwarf' and that such a meaning is consistent with 'hrasvaya'.

ur interpretation goes against 'upakrama nyaya'.

then u interpret 'sipivishta' as Vishnu. but u fail to see that 'Sipivishta' does not mean Vishnu alone. Infact 'Sipivishta' means 'bright Lord'. 'one who is covered by bright light'.

all the names in Sata Rudriya do not refer to deities.

therefore considering some names to be that of deities when all the names are recited in same manner is improper.

also, sata Rudriya does not contain the name 'Narayana' without which 'Sarva shabda vAchyatva' cannot be attained.

thus, ur imaginations r only imaginations. they do not have a bit of truth in them.

also Shatapatha clearly calls Rudra as 'not cleansed of sins'.

RUDRA IS NOT FREE FROM SINS. HENCE HE CANNOT BE THE SUPREME LORD.

NOWHERE IS VISNU SAID TO BE BOUNDED BY SINS. INFACT HE IS SAID TO BE FREE FROM SINS(APAHATAPAPMA).

ALSO, VISNU IS CALLED AS 'SELF BORN' ('SUMAJJAANAYE' - RG VEDA 1.156.2).

ALSO, SATA RUDRIYA CONTAINS NAMES LIKE 'UGRA','BHIMA' ETC. THESE NAMES WERE GIVEN TO RUDRA BY BRAHMADEVA(SHATAPATHA). INFACT RUDRA IS SAID TO NAMELESS DURING HIS BIRTH DUE TO WHICH HE CRIES AND GETS NAMES FROM HIS FATHER, BRAHMADEVA(SHATAPTHA).

THUS THESE NAMES ARE NOT HIS NATURAL NAMES. GOING BY THIS IT IS CLEAR THAT SATA RUDRIYA CONTAINS 'AUPACHAARIKA' NAMES AND THEY DO NOT MEAN MUCH BECAUSE RUDRA'S NAMES WERE GIVEN TO HIM.

TILL NOW, U HAVE NOT ANSWERED TO MY ARGUMENTS ON PAINGI SRUTI, BHALLAVEYA, 'NARAYANA PARAMBRAHMAH.......ATMAH NARAYANAH PARAH', SHATAPATHA, 'ANAPAHATAPAPMATVA OF RUDRA' AND 'APAHATAPAPMATVA OF NARAYNA' ETC.

THIS IS A CLEAR VICTORY OF THE VAISNAVAS IN THIS THREAD.

August 16, 2005

*********************************************************************

Good intent to open your hooded eyes.

***********************************************************************

whatever be. u r not authorised to change Vedic mantras which are 'apaurusheya'.

don't do this once again. u have tortured the Vedas to a great limit. do not move even further on that path.

August 16, 2005

***************************************************

Only Savitar and Savitri are the eternal truth

***************************************************

he keeps on changing his dialogues. he has no philosophy. his only ideology is to somehow establish the superiority of his ishta deva - Shiva.

let him do whatever he wants. the truth is :

"SUPREMACY OF VISNU IS THE SUPREME PURPORT."

therefore all the arguments to prove otherwise are wrong and futile.

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda

7.99.1

"paro mAtrayA tanvR vRdhAna na te mahitvam anv ashnuvanti|

ubhe te vidma rajasI pRthivyA viSNo deva tvam paramasya vitse||"

the above verse calls Visnu as 'paro'.

Atanu says that Visnu is not called as 'para'.

this is rejected by the above verse.

also the meaning of the verse is as follows:

"O Great/Superior Lord(paro)! The mahitva(magnitude/greatness) of Your body when You grew(vRdhAna) huge(mAtrayA) cannot be identified by anyone(na anv ashnuvanti). O Divine Visnu(viSNo deva)! we know(vidma) Your two steps(ubhe rajasI) beginning from earth(prithivyA). Only You(tvam) know(vitse) the Supreme step(paramasya)."

Here the verse speaks about the Trivikrama avatar of Visnu. It says about the two steps and says that only Visnu knows the Supreme(paramasya). as it is well known from Vedas that Visnu took three steps, the Supreme here refers to the Supreme third step.(in accordance with upakrama nyaya).

Taittiriya aranyaka

1-8-2

"anavarNe ime bhUmI iyam cAsau ca rodasi|

kimsvidatrAntarAbhUte yenema vidrute ubhe|

viSNunA vidrute bhUmI iti vatsyasya vedanA||"

Meaning:

"Which/who is the one who bears the multiple coloured(anavarne) two worlds(ime bhUmI) which are earth(iyam cAsau) and heaven(rodasi)? 'These worlds(bhUmI) are borne by Visnu' - so was found(known) by Vatsa."

Thus Visnu is the one who bears the earth and heaven.

August 16, 2005

TaittirIya Aranyaka

1.8.3

"kim tad visnor balamAhuh kA dhIpthi kim parAyanam|

eko yadhdhhAra yadhdhevah rejathI rodhasI ubhhe||

vAthAdhvisnorbalamAhuh aksharAdhdhIpthiruchyate|

tripadhAdh dhhArayadhdhevah yad visnor ekam utthamam||

1.8.4

agnayo vAyavashchaiva etadasya parAyanam||"

Meaning:

"What is said about Visnu's strength, His brightness and His Supreme abode? Divine Visnu Himself all alone bears the heaven and earth with that strength.Visnu's strength is said to greater than that of Vayu. His brightness is said to be greater than that of Agni. Residing in Moksha Loka(TripadhAt), Visnu who is the ONE SUPREME(ekam utthamam) bears the world(heaven and earth), Agnis and Vayus and that Moksha Loka(Tripadha)is His Supreme Abode."

note: 'Tripadha' is His abode. Purusha Sukta says "tripAdUrtva udhait purusha". This confirms that Visnu is the Purusha. also the same TaittirIya Aranyaka goes on to recite Purusha Sukta and calls the Purusha as the Husband of Lakshmi and HrI(bhUmi).

also note that Visnu's strength is said to be superior to VAyu and Agni. But Rudra is shown to be inferior to VAyu in vAyu(keshi) sUkta of Rg Veda where Vayu churned a small portion of the poison for Rudra and gave it to him while Vayu himself drank the major portion of the raw poison.(I will quote the verse in another post)

also note that Visnu is said to bear the earth and heaven all alone. This shows His Supreme strength.

Rg Veda 1.154.1

"Visnornukam vIryAni pravocham yah pArthhivAni vimame rajAMsi|

yo aska bhAyadhuttharaM sadhastham vichakramAnas tredhhorugAyah||"

word by word meaning:

Visnoh - Visnu's

vIryAni - brave deeds

nukam - briefly, fastly

pravocham - say

yah - That Visnu

vimame - created

pArthivAni - belonging to Prithvi, along with

rajAMsi - the worlds

(pArthivAni rajAmsi - the seven worlds(below) belonging to Prithvi/earth)

yah - That Visnu

askabhhAyath - created

sadhastham - crowded, occupied (by punyAtmAs )

uttharam - worlds above

urugAya - greatly praised

thredhha - three steps, three ways

vichakramAnah - measured(these worlds)

Meaning:

"Let me say to you the brave deeds of Visnu who created the seven worlds below - belonging to earth and who created the seven worlds above occupied and crowded with persons of good deeds and he who is greatly praised measured these worlds in three ways/steps."

therefore Visnu is the creator of everything.

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda

7.99.4

"uruM yaj~nAya cakrathur ulokaM janayantA sUryam uSAsam agnim |

dAsasya cid vRSashiprasya mAyA jaghnathur narA pRtanAjyeSu ||"

"For the Yajamana(yagnyAya), You have created(cakrathur u) the huge heaven(uruM lokam). You created Surya, Dawn and Agni. O heroes(Indra and Visnu)! You destroyed the magical power of 'vRSashipra' - the demon who destroys - in the battle and conquered him."

Thus here, Visnu is praised as the creator of Sun, Agni and Dawn.

Atanu claimed that Soma is the creator of Sun. But we asid that it is an aupachArika praise as Soma brings the devas to us by pleasing them, Soma is praised as the father of the devas - Sun,Indra,Visnu etc. the abhimani devata of Soma juice is in no way the father of the devas. because Indra is clearly identified as 'Somapati'(LOrd of Soma).

Rg Veda

1.76.3

prá sú víshvaan rakSáso dhákSy agne bhávaa yajñaánaam abhishastipaávaa

áthaá vaha sómapatiM háribhyaam aatithyám asmai cakRmaa sudaávne

Meaning:

" Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food."

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda

10.136.7

"vAyurasmA upAmanthat.h pinashhTismA kunannamA |

keshI vishhasya pAtreNa yad.hrudreNApibat.hsaha ||"

vAyuH = Vayu; asmA = asmai = for him (for Shiva);

upAmanthat.h = squeezed well (that poison); pinashhTismA =

kneaded and crushed; kunannamA = evil punisher (vAyu);

keshI = who has the Lord's sannidhAna; vishhasya pAtreNa =

with the vessel full of poison; yad.h = which; rudreNa saha =

along with Rudra; apibat.h = drank.

Vayu squeezed, kneaded and crushed [a small portion] of the

poison for Shiva and drank the poison along with Shiva.

rudreNa saha = along with Rudra. So Vayu is the main consumer of the poison. Rudra is a secondary partcipant.

Vayu drank the fully potent poison, but gave the crushed

and weakened small portion of the poison to Shiva.

thus here VAyu is shown to drink the raw poison while Shiva drank only a small portion of it and that too was crushed by VAyu.

keshi -> ka = sukharUpi; Isha = Lord;

sukharUpa IshaH asmin.h asti it keshI = Lord, Who is

personiication of bliss is in MukhyaprANa and so Vayu

is known as keshI. (He sees the Lord inside him).

Hence, even after consuming the poison, he was happy only.

VAYU DRINKS RAW POISON WITH FULL POTENT. HE IS THE PRIMARY CONSUMER.

RUDRA DRINKS GROUNDED AND CRUSHED POISON(THUS LESS POTENT). HE IS A SECONDARY CONSUMER.

THIS SHOWS THE SUPERIORITY OF VAYU OVER RUDRA.

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda

Visvakarma Sukta

10.82.3

"yo naH pitA janitA yo vidhAtA dhAmAni veda bhuvanAnivishvA |

yo devAnAM nAmadhA eka eva taM samprashnambhuvanA yantyanyA ||"

Meaning:

"He who is our preserver, our parent, the creator (of all), who knows our abodes (and knows) all beings, who is the name-giver of the gods-- he is one; other beings come to him to inquire."

NOTE: HE IS THE NAME GIVER OF DEITIES. THUS ALL NAMES BELONG TO HIM.

BHALLAVEYA STATES THAT ALL NAMES PRIMARILY REFER TO VISNU.

VISNU IS 'SARVA SHABDA VACHYA'.

thus, Visnu is praised here and it is said that other beings come to Him to enquire. thus, He is clearly shown to be the Most Supreme.

Note that Rudra was also named by Brahmadeva.(Shatapatha)

all the names belong to Visnu. Thus Visnu is the name giver of gods.

from the above verse, one thing becomes clear.

other than Visnu, all other gods have 'AupachArika' names. only for Visnu do these names grant their original meaning. because other gods got their names only from Visnu. they r not their natural names.

going by this logic,

THE NAMES GIVEN IN SATA RUDRIYA ARE 'AUPACHAARIKA' AND DO NOT HAVE ANY GREAT SIGNIFICANCE. BECAUSE THOSE NAMES WERE GIVEN BY VISNU.

VISNU IS THE PRIMARY REFERRANT OF ALL NAMES. AND IT IS BY THIS CHARACTERISTIC FEATURE THAT VISNU IS PRAISED IN THIS SUKTA.

THEN IT GOES ON TO SING THE PRAISE OF ANANTASAYANA FORM OF VISNU.

10.82.6

"tamid garbhaM prathamaM dadhra Apo yatra devAHsamagachanta vishve |

ajasya nAbhAvadhyekamarpitaMyasmin vishvAni bhuvanAni tasthuH ||"

Meaning:

"The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide."

Here Visnu is shown to be the creator of all other Devas.

the 3rd verse clearly identifies Visnu as the deity(sarva shabda vachyatva).

going by Upakrama nyaya all the following verses of this Sukta refer to Visnu unless otherwise specified.

still the sruti goes on to say about another characteristic feature of Visnu(unborn navel) - His Anantasayana form.

that Visnu is unborn is said by TaittirIya Arayaka(3.13.1)

"ajAyamAno bahudhA vijAyate|"

Meaning:

"He is unborn yet He takes several births(avatars)."

Rg Veda(1.156.2) calls Visnu as 'Self born'(sumajjAnaye).

Thus Visnu is the Supreme God who is the giver of names. He gives names to Gods.

the 'Sarva shabda vAchyatva' clearly identifies the Deity with Visnu.

thus by the 'sarva shabda vachyatva' and upakrama nyaya as well as the Anantasayana form(as a secondary proof), it is very clear that Visnu is the Supreme God who created all other gods.

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda

7.100.3

"trir devaH pRthivIm eSa etAM vi cakrame shatarcasam mahitvA |

pra viSNur astu tavasas tavIyAn tveSaM hy asya sthavirasya nAma ||"

Meaning:

"This Divine Visnu, measured this earth with a hundred(innumerable) splendours with three steps in grand manner(mahitvA). Let Visnu , Mightier than the mightiest(tavasas tavIyAn), be our protector(pra astu). He is the most ancient and ever living(sthavirasya), His name(asya nAma) is glorious[because of being the protector](tveSaM hi)."

the reason for His name being glorious is identified as His being the protector which is said about in the previous . of the mantra.

NOTE:

VISNU IS MIGHTIER THAN THE MIGHTIEST. THUS NO ONE IS SUPERIOR OR EQUAL TO HIM.

HE IS THE MOST ANCIENT AND EVER LIVING. THUS VISNU DOES NOT HAVE AN END. NOR IS THERE A BEGINNING FOR HIM. THIS IS CLEARLY STATED BY TATTIRIYA AS 'AJAAYAMANO'(3.13.1).

THEREFORE, ATANU'S ARGUMENTS PROVE TO BE WRONG AT EACH AND EVERY STEP.

August 16, 2005

Purusha Sukta's 17th mantra says "Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha. so also Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah) meditated upon the Purusha. ONLY BY KNOWING HIM CAN ONE ATTAIN MOKSHA AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY/KNOWLEDGE."

Indra meditated upon Purusha who is Visnu and so also Brahma Deva. ALso Shiva is the deity of Isana(North East) direction and hence he too meditated on Visnu. Sayana, an advaitin, too has accepted that the devatas of the eight directions meditate upon the Purusha. This also proves that ParamaPurusha is different from Shiva.

When Rudra worships ParamaPurusha the argument that Rudra is Parama Purusha stands completely defeated.

August 16, 2005

Rg Veda:

ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH

yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám

10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a sage.

Atanu might argue that 'Ugra' here does not refer to Rudra.

but actually Devi has clearly established a hierarchy in terms of Brahman knowledge.

'brahmaa' means Brahmadeva and it cannot be interpreted as Brahmana or wise man.

Mahopanishad:

'shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidhuttama'

Meaning:

Only Shiva himself is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this Brahman(ayam brahma).

the term 'ayam brahma' clearly shows that the various attributes like undecaying, ever present etc. are referring to Brahman. it also clearly shows that the knower(Shiva) is different from the known(BRahman). the term 'ayam'(this) shows that Shiva knows this Brahman which is undecaying, ever present etc. the word 'ayam' once again makes it clear that these attributes refer o Brahman.

Mahopanishad begins as 'evam Narayana aseet' - 'Only Narayana was there'.

It also says 'nArAyanah param brahmah'.

and hence the term 'ayam brahma' refers to this Brahman - Narayana. also Atanu might say that Visnu is also said to be born of Narayana in this Upanishad but it has been already proved that Visnu is an avatar of Narayana by referring to Purusha Sukta and Mudgalopanishad by Saranathan in 'Narayana is the Supreme'. I do not want to repeat it once again.

going by this it can be found that Shiva is only a Brahman knower and that shiva is not Brahman.

so when Devi says that She makes those whom She love as Ugra(Rudra), Brahmadeva, a r.si or a brahmin sage - it is clear that She shows an order of priority based on the Brahman knowledge attainable by each being.

Rudra being the best of the Brahman knowers comes first and Devi makes that person as Rudra whom she likes very much.

second in the order comes Brahmadeva for he will be the next best knower to Shiva. then comes a r.si and then a brahmin sage.

thus the priority is shown in a descending order of Brahman knowledge attainable by each category.

August 16, 2005

thus with the above posts, I end my arguments on this thread. I have to pursue my studies to face my exams about a month from now.

i hope that i have given enough citations to pove the Supremacy of Visnu and to establish that Rudra is neither equal nor superior to Visnu.

if one goes thru the whole thread, one can see that most of Atanu's arguments have been proved wrong logically, grammatically and according to various nyayas.

while Atanu normally skips the strong points of Vaisnavas' arguments and continues with his old defeated arguments.

thus any third person can clearly see that the Vaisnavas have attained a clear victory in this thread.

even now i know that atanu will skip many verses cited by me to clearly establish the Supremacy of Visnu or else he will give wrong translations of some westerners.

let him do whatever he wants. making interpretations without understanding the context of a verse will be unvedic and every word's meaning must be interpreted based on the context which Atanu does not understand.

so let him do whatever he wants.

the Supremacy of Visnu, having been clearly established, we - Vaisnavas, are happy to end our debate on this thread for the time being as it seems all of us busy with one work or other.

bye!!!!!!!!!!

Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

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