Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

[Guest guest]

"i hope that i have given enough citations to PROVE the Supremacy of Visnu and to establish that Rudra is neither equal nor superior to Visnu."

 

 

there may be some other grammatical/punctuation mistakes in the posts as they were typed by me fastly. I am not fluent in typing. let atanu not make much hue and cry over it.

[Guest guest]

Hari Bol Ravilochan,

 

Good work

You have cited great number of verses. Only one point, Taratamya of Madhvacharya places Rudra Deva below BrahmA, below sarasvati, below Vayu, below Bharathi, below Rju ganas and their wives, and Rudra Deva's status is equal to that of Sesa and Garuda.

[BinduMadhav]

Ravilochan wrote:

 

"thus with the above posts, I end my arguments on this thread. I have to pursue my studies to face my exams about a month from now.

 

i hope that i have given enough citations to pove the Supremacy of Visnu and to establish that Rudra is neither equal nor superior to Visnu."

 

Ravilochanan,

 

I have followed all your posts and I think you deserve accolades for a superb job done. I commend you for your knowledge and superior intellect.

 

Good luck with your exams (although with the thorough attention to detail that you have displayed, I really doubt if you need any luck with the preparation for and face-off of the exams).

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Throw away the emotions

 

Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudeva namah

 

Svet. Up.

 

ghR^itaat paraM maNDamivaatisuuxma.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n sarvabhuuteshhu guuDham.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa devaM muchyate sarvapaashaiH .. 16..

 

16. He who knows Siva (the blessed) hidden in all beings, like the subtle film that rises from out the clarified butter, alone enveloping everything, knows the god and is freed from all fetters.

 

 

eshha devo vishvakarmaa mahaatmaa

sadaa janaanaa.n hR^idaye sannivishhTaH .

hR^idaa maniishhaa manasaabhiklR^ipto

ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 17..

 

17. That god, the maker of all thing, the great Self, always dwelling in the heart of man, IS PERCEIVED BY THE HEART, THE INTELLECT AND THE MIND; - they who know it become immortal.

 

Note: He is PERCEIVED BY THE HEART, THE INTELLECT AND THE MIND and not alone by blind faith

 

 

Be a man. Throw away the covering of categories (Vaisnav Saiva etc.) and just be a man first. Use the intellect, Mind and the heart all together. Blind faith will not help. Start your own questions. That is what God wants every one to do.

 

 

Just check the usage of Anaadimat in the following passage. Anaadimat means ‘OF NO BEGINNING’ or ‘WITHOUT A BEGINNING’

 

 

 

4.4 niilaH pataN^go harito lohitaaxa\-

staDidgarbha R^itavaH samudraaH .

anaadimat.h tva.n vibhutvena vartase

yato jaataani bhuvanaani vishvaa .. 4..

 

4.4 . Thou art the dark-blue bee, thou art the green parrot with red eyes, thou art the thunder-cloud, the seasons, the seas. THOU ART WITHOUT BEGINNING, because thou art infinite, thou from whom all worlds are born.

 

And check the following verse also:

 

 

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18..

 

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.

 

Please note the phrase ‘NEITHER EXISTENCE NOR NON-EXISTENCE”

 

Now please read the followings (chanting OM Vishnu Om Vishnu):

 

Sri Bhagavaan Uvaacha: Idam shareeram kaunteya kshetramityabhidheeyate; Etadyo vetti tam praahuh kshetrajna iti tadvidah.

 

The Blessed Lord said:

13.2. This body, O Arjuna, is called the Field; he who knows it is called the Knower of the Field by those who know of them, that is, by the sages.

-----------

13.13Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami ajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute; Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

 

13.13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, CALLED NEITHER BEING NOR NON-BEING.

 

13. I WILL DECLARE THAT WHICH HAS TO BE KNOWN, KNOWING WHICH ONE ATTAINS TO IMMORTALITY, THE BEGINNINGLESS SUPREME BRAHMAN, CALLED NEITHER BEING NOR NON-BEING.

 

Note: CALLED NEITHER BEING NOR NON-BEING

 

And compare Anaadimatparam: THE BEGINNINGLESS SUPREME BRAHMAN, in this translation to another translation as below:

 

13.13 I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. Brahman, the spirit, beginningless and subordinate to Me, lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world.(13.13)

 

 

And also see what other three translators write:

 

I shall speak of that which is to be known, by realizing which one obtains Immortality. The supreme Brahman is without any beginning. That is neither called being or non-being. (13.12)

 

(13.12) I will describe that which is to be known and by knowing which life eternal is gained. It is the supreme Brahman who beginningless and who is said to be neither existent nor non-existent.

 

13.12 I shall fully describe the object of knowledge. By knowing this one attains immortality. The beginningless Supreme Being is said to be neither eternal, nor temporal.

 

End of citation

 

Ravi, keep Vishnu in mind. Don’t let the thought go away. Decide then on your own where from ‘and subordinate to Me’, came.

 

I am not asking you to accept or reject anything. What I ask is just be calm and form your manly view, forgetting your past knowledge. Burden of old values and old opinions drag us down.

 

Also know that Bhagawan has already given an opinion in 8.3 as below:

 

8.3 Aksharam brahma paramam swabhaavo’dhyaatmamuchyate;

Bhootabhaavodbhavakaro visargah karmasamjnitah.

 

The Blessed Lord said:

8.3. Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to the gods) which causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

 

Once you form your manly independent view, read the following verses.

 

13.13. I WILL DECLARE THAT WHICH HAS TO BE KNOWN, KNOWING WHICH ONE ATTAINS TO IMMORTALITY, THE BEGINNINGLESS SUPREME BRAHMAN, CALLED NEITHER BEING NOR NON-BEING

 

(Note: add “and subordinate to me”, if you wish).

 

13.18 Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;

Jnaanam jneyam jnaanagamyam hridi sarvasya vishthitam.

18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.

 

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

 

13.23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, mahesvara (the great Lord) and the Supreme Self.

 

13.28 Samam sarveshu bhooteshu tishthantam parameshwaram;

Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati.

 

13.28 He sees, who sees the Supreme Lord, existing equally in all beings, the unperishing within the perishing.

 

13.32 Anaaditwaan nirgunatwaat paramaatmaayam avyayah;

Shareerastho’pi kaunteya na karoti na lipyate.

 

13.32. Being without beginning and devoid of (any) qualities, the Supreme Self, imperishable, though dwelling in the body, O Arjuna, neither acts nor is tainted!

 

Ravi, to gain immortality one has to know the anaadimatparam: bhoktaa maheshwarah; Paramaatmeti dehe’smin purushah parah, parameshwaram, and Anaaditwaan nirgunatwaat paramaatmaayam avyayah.

 

Surrender to Lord Krishna and continuously meditate on him. He will clarify as to what is nirgunatwaa and what is sagunatwaa. And whether both are same or not?

 

And also remember with love (you cannot hate yourself man):

 

Svet. Up, which is dear to even Lord Krishna.

 

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

 

18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.

 

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

I THINK I KNOW THE SUBTLEST PATIM PATIINAAM PARAMAM PARASTAAD PARAMAM MAHESHVARA

 

16. He who knows Siva (the blessed) hidden in all beings, like the subtle film that rises from out the clarified butter, alone enveloping everything,he who knows the god, is freed from all fetters.

 

Om Namah Sivayya

 

[Guest guest]

 

Rg Veda

 

1-22-17

 

"idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam |

samUDamasya pAMsure ||"

 

 

Meaning:

 

"Visnu measured all these worlds with three steps. These worlds were covered by the dust from His Feet."

 

All the worlds were covered by the dust from Visnu's feet. This shows His Great strength. when all the worlds were covered by dust then so were the living beings of those worlds.

 

Thus Indra, Agni etc. who reside in Heaven were also covered by the dust which shows Visnu's superior position. He is superior to these Devas.

 

 

1-22-18

 

"trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH |

ato dharmANi dhArayan ||"

 

Meaning:

 

" Visnu, the protector(gopA) and invincible(adAbhyaH), measured with three steps. By doing so, He bears and saves all the Dharmas(dharmANi dhArayan)."

 

Thus Visnu saves all the Dharmas. He is the Supreme protector.

 

 

 

1-154-3

 

"pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe |

ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"To that Visnu who measured these worlds which are broad and long, ALL ALONE WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT, with three steps, unto Him who showers boons , who is highly praised and who resides in higher plane; let these hymns of strength go and reach."

 

Note:

 

"sadhasthameko vimame" - 'WORLDS WERE MEASURED BY HIM ALL ALONE(EKO)".

 

THE WORD 'EKO' SHOWS THAT HE DID THAT ALL ALONE WITHOUT A TINGE OF SUPPORT FROM ANY OTHER DEITY. THIS SHOWS HIS SUPREME STRENGTH. HE DOES NOT NEED THE HELP OF ANY ONE.

 

 

 

1-154-4

 

"yasya trI pUrNA madhunA padAnyakSIyamANA svadhayAmadanti |

ya u tridhAtu pRtivImuta dyAmeko dAdhAra bhuvanAni vishvA ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"He whose three steps are filled of nectar, are indestructible and please by giving food, that Visnu, all alone(eko),bears the earth, space and all worlds along with the three dhAthus - past, present and future/ land, fire and water."

 

VISNU IS PRAISED AS THE ONE WHO BEARS ALL THE WORLDS ALL ALONE WITHOUT SUPPORT FROM ANYONE.

 

THE 3 DHATUS ARE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. THEY ARE ALSO CONSIDERED AS FIRE, LAND AND WATER. INFACT THE COMMENTATORS CONSIDER THAT THE WORD REFERS TO BOTH THESE SETS. (SLESHA)

 

 

 

 

1-154-5

 

"tadasya priyamabhi pAtho ashyAM naro yatra devayavo madanti |

urukramasya sa hi bandhuritthA viSNoH pade parame madhva utsaH ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"From Supreme Feet of Visnu(visno pade parame), who is the friend of everyone, arose a flood of water(Ganga) as sweet as nectar(madhva) and that water which is dear to Him(tadasya priyamabhi) be drunk by me. Men who wish to attain Devatva bath(naro yatra devayavo madanti) in that water(pAtho). Like this is its greatness(itthA)."

 

NOTE: MEN ATTAIN DEVATVA BY BATHING IN THE WATER THAT AROSE FROM VISNU'S FEET(VISNU'S SRIPAADHA THEERTHAM).

 

THIS SHOWS THAT VISNU IS THE ONE WHO GIVE DEVAS THEIR POSITION.

 

 

 

1-155-3

 

"tA IM vardhanti mahyasya pauMsyaM ni mAtarA nayati retase bhuje |

dadhAti putro.avaraM paraM piturnAma tRtIyamadhi rocane divaH ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"These sacrifices increase increase the wealth, pride and manliness of the Yajamana. From the bright centre of the Sun, to create living beings and for their enjoyment, He makes the Jivas to attain the space and earth. By the of grace Him who is the protector, this Jiva is born as a son to one father and attains the higher name(son), lower name(grandson) and a third name (father)."

 

HERE VISNU IS SHOWN AS THE GOD WHO MAKES THE JIVAS TO TAKE BIRTH. THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL FEATURE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE SUPREME GOD. THIS ESTABLISHES VISNU'S SUPREMACY VERY CLEARLY.

 

SAyana translates 'pitur - pituh' as "pAlakAt viSNur anugrahAt".

 

 

 

1-155-4

 

"tat tadidasya pauMsyaM gRNImasInasya traturavRkasya mIDhuSaH |

yaH pArthivAni tribhirid vigAmabhiruru kramiSTorugAyAya jIvase ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"That LOrd who measured each and every atom of the worlds(pArthivAni) with three steps to be praised and to protect the worlds, let us worship those manly deeds of Him who is the Lord of everything(inasya), protector(trAtu), kind hearted(avRkasya), ever young/giver of all wishes(mIDhuSah)."

 

 

NOTE: VISNU IS THE LORD OF EVERYTHING AND THE PROTECTOR. HE IS KIND HEARTED WHICH MEANS HE IS BEYOND CRUELTY AND TAMAS. THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL FEATURE OF PURUSHA.

 

ALSO NOTE THAT 'RUDRA IS CRUEL' IS WHAT THE DEVAS GIVE AS REASON FOR HIM TO BE SELECTED TO SHOOT THE ARROW AT TRIPURAS. THUS RUDRA HAS TAMOGUNA.

 

 

 

1-155-5

 

"dve idasya kramaNe svardRsho.abhikhyAya martyo bhuraNyati |

tRtIyamasya nakirA dadharSati vayashcana patayantaH patatriNaH ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"Men know and worship by praising only the two steps of Visnu, who sees the heaven. He can never know about the third step of Visnu. Even the VAyus which blow everywhere and the flying birds cannot know it."

 

VISNU ALONE IS SAID TO KNOW ABOUT THE SUPREME THIRD STEP IN THIS AND OTHER SUCH VERSES. HERE 'BIRDS' ARE TAKEN TO REFER TO CELESTIALS WHO ROAM EVERYWHERE. BECAUSE THE WORD IS USED WITH VAYUS(MARUTS) WHO ARE DEVAS.

 

 

 

 

1-156-3

 

"tamu stotAraH pUrvyaM yathA vida Rtasya garbhaM januSApipartana |

Asya jAnanto nAma cid vivaktana mahaste viSNo sumatiM bhajAmahe ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"O singers of Hymns! Knowing the most ancient and the creator of water(and thus the worlds), please Him by singing hymns in praise of Him without any thought for worldly boons but for attaining Him(januSA).O knowers of His name! Sing it everywhere. O divine Great LOrd(maha) Visnu! Let us attain the good thought singing ur praise."

 

 

NOTE: PLEASE HIM BY SINGING HYMNS IN PRAISE OF HIM(pipartana).

 

 

WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT FOR WORLDLY BOONS BUT FOR ATTAINING HIM(januSA).

 

SAyana says "janusA :: janmanA - svata eva - na kenachit vara lAbhAdinA" (as the purpose of taking this birth and not for any worldly boons - thus only for attaining Visnu[this is confirmed by words like 'sodhvana pAramApnoti tad viSNo paramam padam'{KaTha Upa}).

 

 

 

1-156-5

 

"A yo vivAya sacathAya daivya indrAya viSNuH sukRte sukRttaraH |

vedhA ajinvat triSadhastha AryaM Rtasya bhAge yajamAnamAbhajat ||"

 

Meaning:

 

"That Visnu, who is divine and who is the best in giving good fruits(boons), came down to help Indra who did good work(of worshipping Visnu thru yagna). That Visnu who is in the moksha loka(triSadhasthah) and who is the giver of all boons(vedhA) makes the Yajmana(Indra) feel happy(ajinvat) by giving him the fruits(abhajat) of his yagna."

 

THUS INDRA WORSHIPPED VISNU THROUGH A YAGNA AND ATTAINED HIS HELP. VISNU CAME DOWN(AS INDRA'S YOUNGER BROTHER -VAAMANA) TO HELP INDRA.

 

ALSO VISNU IS IDENTIFIED AS THE GIVER OF ALL BOONS/FRUITS OF ACTIONS AND THE ONE WHO RESIDES IN TRIPAADVIBHUTI(MOKSHA LOKA).

 

HIS RESIDING AT TRIPAADVIBHUTI SHOWS THAT HE IS THE PURUSHA - "tripAdhurtva udait purusa"(Purusha Sukta).

 

 

7-99-2

 

"na te viSNo jAyamAno na jAto deva mahimnaH param antam Apa |

ud astabhnA nAkam RSvam bRhantaM dAdhartha prAcIM kakubham pRthivyAH ||"

 

 

Meaning:

 

"No being that is or has been born can ever attain Your Magnitude which has the highest limit(naH param antam). The moksha loka(nAkam) which is beautiful to see and large is borne by You. You art bearing the worlds at their ancient positions(after pralaya)."

 

NOTE THAT THE MAHIMA OF VISNU HAS NO HIGHEST LIMIT. IT IS LIMITLESS. IT CANNOT BE ATTAINED BY ANYONE. NO ONE CAN ARGUE THAT RUDRA IS UNBORN AND SO EXEMPTED ETC.

 

BECAUSE SHATAPATHA CLEARLY SHOWS THAT RUDRA DOES HAVE A BIRTH THAT TOO HE IS A JIVA WHO HAS A VERY NORMAL BIRTH.

 

 

 

7-100-5

 

"pra tat te adya shipiviSTa nAmAryaH shaMsAmi vayunAni vidvAn |

taM tvA gRNAmi tavasam atavyAn kSayantam asya rajasaH parAke || "

 

Meaning:

 

"O Bright Lord! I utter that name of You after knowing about the way to attain Moksha(vayunAni vidvAn) becoming the master(arya). I worship by singing about You as the One who is the Most Ancient and who is residing beyond this material world(rajasaH parAke)."

 

 

NOTE THAT THE NAME OF VISNU IS UTTERED BY THE PERSON WHO KNOWS THE WAY TO ATTAIN MOKSHA.

 

THUS UTTERING THE NAME OF VISNU GIVES MOKSHA. BY DOING SO, THE WORSHIPPER BECOMES THE MASTER. BECAUSE HE IS NO LONGER AFRAID OF ANYONE(LIKE YAMA ETC).

 

ALSO VISNU IS CLEARLY SHOWN TO BE BEYOND THE MATERIAL WORLD. 'RAJAS' AND 'TAMAS' ARE FOUND ONLY IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD. NOT IN THE ETERNAL MOKSHA LOKA.

 

VISNU IS BEYOND 'RAJAS'. KNOW THAT 'RAJAS' IS SUPERIOR TO 'TAMAS'. THUS VISNU IS BEYOND 'RAJAS' AND 'TAMAS' AND THUS BEYOND THIS MATERIAL WORLD. THIS ESTABLISHES HIS SUPREMACY OVER EVERYONE.

 

ALSO VISNU IS IDENTIFIED AS A DEITY BEYOND TAMAS IN TAITTIRIYA ARANYAKA. (3-13: 'TAMASAH PRASTAAT').

 

THUS THE SUPREMACY OF VISNU IS CLEARLY ESTABLISHED IN THE ABOVE VERSES CITED.

 

 

 

 

Now, in the Second Prasna of the First Kanda of Krishna Yajus Samhita occur the following mantra:

 

 

"divo vA viSNuvuta vA pRithivyAH maho vA viSNuvuta vAntarikSAt|

hastow pRNasva bahubhirva savyairA prayachchha dakSiNA dota savyAt||"

 

Meaning:

 

Meaning:

 

"O Visnu! Fill my hands with the different kinds of wealth(gems, gold etc) brought from heaven, earth, maharloka and space. Give from Your right hand and left hand."

 

 

NOTE: HERE VISNU IS ASKED TO BRING WEALTH FROM ALL THE WORLDS.

 

THIS SHOWS THAT VISNU IS THE OWNER OF THESE WORLDS.

 

THUS THE SUPREMACY OF VISNU IN TERMS OF OWNERSHIP OVER ALL WORLDS IS CLEARLY ESTABLISHED HERE.

 

 

 

Atanu, still, refuses to accept the reality with manliness. instead he asks us to accept his concept.

 

Dear atanu,

 

Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva have accepted Vishnu and Vishnu alone as Param BRahman in their BRahma Sutra bhashyas. they have accepted that there is no god/being equal to or greater than Him. Sankara has said so in the 'PAncharAtra adhikaranam'.

 

all the three have discarded 'Pasupatha'(shaiva) religion as unvedic in their commentaries. (pASupata adhikaranam)

 

this is more than enough. we need not argue upon a point which all these three acharyas have clearly established without a tinge of doubt.

 

just got some time off and put up a supplement to my earlier arguments.

 

 

Dear Kannadasan and Bindhu Madhav,

 

Thanks for ur compliments. I hope u will enjoy this post too.

 

'nArAyanAt param nAsti, nastu nArAyana samAnam'.

 

Srimathe RAmAnujAya namaH.

[Guest guest]

 

"divo vA viSNuvuta vA pRithivyAH maho vA viSNuvuta vAntarikSAt|

hastow pRNasva bahubhirva savyairA prayachchha dakSiNA dota savyAt||"

 

the above verse in in TaittirIya Samhita of Krishna Yajur Veda.

 

the verse is found in 1-2-13(8).

[Guest guest]

 

Atanu,

 

u fail to see the points raised by us in the earlier posts. Svetashvatara praises Lord Visnu. the fact that the Supreme Lord Visnu is praised here is established by the fact that it has Purusha Sukta mantras, it says that the Lord created Brahmadeva(Hiranyagarbha) and that 'Purusha' is used often to refer to the Lord.

 

TaittirIya aranyaka establishes that Purusha is Visnu(pati o Hree[bhumi] and Lakshmi).

 

Also BRahma was created by Visnu.

 

this is established by:

 

"nArAyanAt brahmA jAyate"(nArAyanopanishat).

 

note that this verse cannot refer to Rudra in any sense. if Svetashvatara is taken to praise Rudra then Vedas will become a collection of contradictory statements.

 

Hence, Rudra in Svetahsvatara refers to Visnu and this interpretation is supported by BhAllaveya.

 

 

also note that the argument that Visnu and Rudra are equal or same is also wrong.

 

Shatapatha says that Rudra is not cleansed of sins. thus Rudra is a JIvAtmA.

 

but Narayana is called as 'untouched by sins' in Subala Upanishad.

 

Thus, Rudra and Visnu are not the same. nor are they equal.

 

Visnu is definitely superior to Rudra.

 

also 'Namo RudrAya ViSNave' in MahanArAyana Upa. means

 

1. "Salutations to Rudra and to Visnu."

 

definitely Rudra and Vishnu are not identified as the same here.

 

because

 

the verse does not contain 'yaScha' or any other word like that to support Atanu's argument.

 

or else, the verse can be taken to mean as follows:

 

2. "Salutations to the giver of Moksha, Visnu"

 

or

 

3. "Salutations to all pervading Rudra"

 

as Rudra is said to be present in herbs, fire etc., Rudra has pervading nature which is limited. because Rudra is not the antaryamin of Jivatma.

 

this limited pervading nature can called as 'all pervading'(Visnu) in an 'AupachArika' sense. just as Agni ia called as all devatas as the devas reside in agni to get their share of sacrifice.

 

 

still, 'all pervading Rudra' lacks definiteness as Rudra is not the 'antaryamin' of jivAtma.

 

thus translations 1 & 2 prove to be the most correct and the 3rd one is correct in an aupachArika sense.

 

 

note that Visnu is clearly identified as the antaryamin os jivatma in Subala Upanishad:

 

"yasya Atma Sariram"

 

 

let atanu accept the reality.

 

even if does not accept, the truth, that has been clearly shown by the Vaisnavas in this thread, will not become wrong.

 

'nArAyanAt param nAsti, nastu nArAyana samAnam'

 

srimathe RAmAnujAya namaH

 

[Guest guest]

 

*******Svetashvatara praises Lord Visnu. the fact that the Supreme Lord Visnu is praised here**********

 

Svet. Up,

 

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

 

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

 

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Ravi Lochanan. If Vishnu is praised here I am very happy.

 

If param of param is called mahesvara and if Siva alone remains when all else is dissolved by neti neti then it is Siva alone and no one else.

 

Very simple. Rest is all illusion --- Janitaa Soma -- LOrd's energy.

 

 

 

 

 

EKO patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad paramaM maheshvara Namoh Namaha

 

praGYaa is all. And Lord Siva, you are the owner of that pure ancient praGYaa.

 

 

[raayasa]

why means in long discussion no have mentioned acharya traya's(shankara, ramanuja & madhwacharya's) we have no authorithy to say that idamittham. because we had acharya thraya & we should fallow them, forgot their tatva's first think these three acharya belive that vishnu is suprime, no confusion. so this discussion concludeed that vishnu is suprime, am telling to all of the person who came under this dicussion including bindumadhawa, rateesh, ganesh prasad, krishna das plz think this correct way of discussion.i think u may ask why u told like this because everything been dicussed by these achaya's so we no dwandwa in this topic.

[Guest guest]

 

sómaH pavate janitaá matiinaáM janitaá divó janitaá pRthivyaáH

janitaágnér janitaá suúryasya janiténdrasya janitótá víSNoH

 

9.096.05 The Soma flows, the progenitor of praises, the progenitor of heaven, the progenitor of the earth, the progenitor of Agni, the progenitor of the sun, the progenitor of Indra, progenitor of Vis.n.u.

 

 

 

índur índro vR'Saa háriH pávamaanaH prajaápatiH

 

so we no dwandwa in this topic --- whatever that may mean.

 

 

[raayasa]

sómaH pavate janitaá matiinaáM janitaá divó janitaá pRthivyaáH

janitaágnér janitaá suúryasya janiténdrasya janitótá víSNoH

in this veda sukta it is showing the taratamya of gods means first(supreme) is visnu and next is brahama and after is rudra & endra & so on. so this say's dwaita tatava.thanku

[Guest guest]

All you people fight over nothing. Vedas declare both Shiva And Vishnu As of one brahswarup. This is the simple little answer!!!

[Guest guest]

 

RE: idiots

 

 

good post!