Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

[Guest guest]

Vedic knowledge is all about advaitha. If you experience advaitha, then reading vedas is a great way to expand the experience. If you don't have the experience of advaitha, then the vedas are useless. It's experience which is the difference. For example; The meaning of BG before and after experience will be entirely different. One can see Krishna representing the highest passion for advaitha as he makes it clear there is nothing above bramhan as it's the supreme.

 

The above is hard for everyone to experience and doesn't mean that the majority of the people loose all their say, leaving to the few who are wise with vedic realization. That's how Bakthy movement emerged, banging their presence with Vishita advaitha and grabbing attention by speaking ill of gurus like shankaracharya.

 

These bakthy movement cater to bring identity to their group with less of their distinct idelogy, and more of their ritual, tilak & other customs. The vaishnavas of today is a representation of lower intellect

1. incapable of understanding the vedic spiritual realization

2. Impatient to accept that this might take more than one life time to realise

3. Bringing more creidbility to their bakthy with rich visulas and orthodoxy.

 

So all of us know that vaishnavism offers little to the individual and more provides the social identity for the individual with a custom and ritual. There is nothing else in it.

 

This fight started by bindumadhav, the vaishnav is stupid. Let's realise that Shiva being considered lower to vishnu by vaishnavites is nothing different & we shouldn't feel bad, as we should accept their dumbness and impatience. There exists plenty of similar arguments between these vaishnavic bakthy groups that Krishna is above narayana, krishna is above vishnu, krishna is above vasudeva, swami-narayan is above krishna & all that bla bla etc.

 

In this Kali yuga, one requires more viveka, to tell the real from the unreal. Here in this discussion a challenge for the reader would be "is the person who takes the name of krishna the most, the closest to understanding krishna". Viveka is required to go beyond the noun usages taking name of krishna & the eye wash of their rituals.

[BinduMadhav]

Haven't I, Atanu? I am amazed and quite pleased with the zeal and energy with which you have posted all these notes.

 

{Hey, some one else is the step of Visnu and bolt of Indra.}

 

Yes. Who is it? Rudra? Even poor Rudra needs a role, so he gets one.

 

{As usual, like in every other case, likes of you cross limits and defeat themselves.}

 

What is the limit? Define it and I will consider not crossing it. But no promises. The one promise I make is not to be uncivil.

 

{If Gita is authority for you (for me it is), show us where it is stated that Siva is demi god?}

 

Gita does not give so much importance to Siva. But did you read my questions in proper order? Please read them again.

 

{Earn some punya by reading Bhagavatam}

 

I have an excellent copy of Srimad Bhagavatham. I am sure I am earning lots of Punya every time I read it. But I am not concerned about myself. I am concerned about you and other Saivites like yourself.

 

{Repeat: all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva].}

 

Yes. All demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Siva, another demigod. Let me define 'demigod' for you here. A demigod is a minor god. Where Lord Vasudeva is present, everyone else including Siva is a demigod. When Lord Vasudeva is not present in his amazingly beautiful form, Siva can become somewhat of a major god.

 

{I ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?}

 

For the same reason that the President of a company asks his secretary to book a ticket to fly to Bombay. The president could have done it himself. Why does not he? Because the secretary is there to help him out.

 

{Note: Supreme Brahman}

 

Atanu, my friend, in our literature, when someone prays to someone else, it is common etiquette to say that the person being prayed to is the Supreme Brahman. That is why when you read Ganesha Atharvasheersha, you will read, "Tvameva Pratyaksham Brahmasi". The same statement is seen in Narayanopanishad. Do you get it? When you read a piece devoted to Aditya, Agni, Vayu or some other god, it is the same.

 

{Please note: Your Lordship, Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma.}

 

Same comments.

 

{Please note: the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.}

 

Same comments. "Brahma Murari Surarchita Lingam" is a polite statement. So are passages in Lalitha Sahasranama or Sivananda Lahari or Soundarya Lahiri written by Sankara.

 

{And please note all the time Lord Vishnu was also there.}

 

Of course, He would be. He is the all pervading Maha Vishnu. There is no place where Lord Vishnu would not be.

 

{Ask: Why Lord Vishnu—the Supreme God Head approached SadaSiva to drink Halahal?}

 

I already answered this one. If Lord Vishnu took all the glory, where is the glory left for his best Bhakta?

 

{Some one is the bolt of Indra and the stepping of Vishnu. Who is that ONE?}

 

We all need stepping stones, bows and arrows (or tools) while accomplishing something. Does that mean Lord Rama's bow is superior to Lord Rama Himself? Does that demon on which Nataraja dances superior to Nataraja? What kind of logic is this?

 

 

Alodya sarva-shastrani vicharya cha punah punah

Idam ekam sunispannam dheyo narayanah sada

 

By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the Supreme Absolute Truth, and thus He alone is to be worshipped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Pranam Thiru ji

 

Re

(Shree Dhar Swami prays, ‘I humbly bow before Vishnu and Shankar who are one, who revere one another and who provide for all.)

 

Where can i find or buy a copy of Shree Dhar Swami's commentry on Bhagvat puran?

 

 

 

 

Re

Narad Pancharatra succinctly states:

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

 

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’)

 

 

In Ram Charitra Manas

Tulaseedaasa is pointing out that the reality of God, gods and deities is one in all and all are one in reality, regardless of differences in perspectives even among some followers of sampradaayas are Shaivites, who treat Shiva, and Vaishnavites, who claim Vishnu as the Supreme. Not the name or form in which we worship God Almighty, but our yearning for Him matters to him.

 

Lankaakaandda

336 Chaupaayi: Linga thaapi bidhi-vata kari poojaa: Siva-samaana priya mohi na doojaa::

Siva-drohee mama bhagata kahaavaa: so nara sapanayhu mohi na paavaa::

Sankara-bimukha bhagati chaha moree: so naarakee moorhha mati thoree:: L/2

336. After installing Shivalinga, a symbol of Shiva, and worshipping it, Shree Raama said, "There is none as dear to me as Shiva. One who wants to be called my devotee but is opposed to Shiva, cannot reach me even in one’s dream. One averse to Shiva, but who wishes devotion to me is stupid and goes to hell."

 

Shree Raama demonstrates the importance of symbolism in Sanaatana Dharma. He followed the traditional sequence for the installation of Shiva’s symbol. He first made the symbol of sand on the seashore, worshipped Shiva in it and then offered prayer to him. Shree Raama’s prayer shows that Shiva and he are one

 

337 Dohaa: Sankara priya mama-drohee, Siva-drohee mama daasa: Tay nara karahin kalapa bhari, ghora naraka main baasa:: L/2

 

 

Shree Raama continued, "Those who love Shiva and are opposed to me or are against Shiva and devoted to me, will live in hell for a full kalpa."

 

The Shree Raamacharita Maanasa repeats the oneness of Shiva, a god of the Indian trinity, and Shree Raama, an Incarnation of Vishnu.

By treating Shiva as a guru and as the personification of enlightened faith, Tulaseedaasa made him the foundation of devotion to Shree Raama.

Shiva is Shree Raama’s servant, master and friend. It is a peculiar relationship of oneness between an Incarnation of God and gods.

 

Shree Raama installed and worshipped Shiva’s symbol. Shiva always repeats Shree Raama’s name.

 

This verse is from an excerpt on 'Bhakti' written in 'Uttara Khanda'

 

 

Lord Ramacandra said:

 

" aurau eka guputa mata sabahi kahaum kara jori,

shankara bhajana binaa nara bhagati na paavai mori "

 

With folded hands I now lay before you one MORE SECRET doctrine:

WITHOUT ADORING Lord Shankara NO MAN can ATTAIN loving DEVOTION to ME.

 

Shree Raama treats the aversion or opposition to devotion to Shiva in his devotees as the same as to himself. If one does not revere Shiva who is Shree Raama’s devotee, one cannot reach Shree Raama. Yaajnavalkya said that devotion to Shiva is the sign of devotion to Shree Raama. The precept is that ‘Vishnu is Shiva and Shiva is Vishnu and whoever thinks they are different goes to hell.’

 

Krishna is Gopinath Shiva is GopIshvra.

 

Differentiation among gods is ignorance of the oneness of all as forms of supreme Lord. This ignorance becomes bigotry of the only or the superior way, which divides men and so becomes a heinous sin.

 

Why doubt what Krishna says off Rudra I am Shankra, especially when there is so much other evidence in our shastra saying they are both the same.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have a compilation of om artciles and there is a writer from a chaitanya school who says Hare krishna is above Om.

 

Let's not get lost in Shiva krishna debate. Let's discuss on the unique aspect of positioning gods in vaishnavsim with a mere superficial understanding.

 

"Krishna is the supreme and all the other vishnu names are ruler of smaller planet" or some . like that, vaishnavites quote S.B.

 

Chaitanya maha prabhu spent more time converting the Sri vaishnavites and Madhva viashnavites, through power of argument. So most of the origins of these debates of who is greater, krishna or narayana or krishna or someother vishnu name might have taken origins there.

 

So Shiva vs. krishna debate is useless. A vaishnavite would not be able to see more sense than saying ultimately that shiva krishna is the same, yet different (the greatest clarity of thinking ever aspirable for vishita advaithists). Krihshna is impersonalist and personalist. The same conclusion is applicable in there argumnets for so many things.

 

Look at it, it's simple, any two name are same as well as different.

 

Vishista advaitha preacher's foundation are the following:

 

1. Advaitha knowledge, bramhan realization is difficult, and not for this kali-yuga. So there had to be a smarter way (This is their impatience with their incapability to understand vedas)

 

2. As there is no spiritual realization for them, they associate more value for personalised god. But just to be different from christainity and islam, and to take advantage of the 'made in india' brand or the 'evolved from veda' image, they also recognize the impersonalistic side of god, but this is just recognition without experience.

 

3. They grab attention by speaking down down advaitha and up up vishista advaitha. Their thinking lacks clarity at the highest level. so this way of grabbing atttention is their best bet.

 

4. They recognize all gods and depedning upon the vaishnavic school, their unique POSITIONS assigned to each god in a hierarchy.

 

5. There is no conversion in to vaishnavism so it's harmless. Except that it provides you a social identity, and leaves your individuality & family intact. Vaishnavism has ziltch for the individual progress to realization.

 

Shankarachya in viveka choodamani is assertive in making sure that Advaitha is for the individual quest & not for a group identity. "He says the vedas are useless, if you don't have realization. The vedas are not necessary for a person who has realized." He appeals for the experience.

 

Had he not done that, we would have lots of people carrying books on Veda Like the vaishnavites carry their books. And keep quoting from them without any understanding. Understanding which god is higher and which one level can never be wisdom, it's an ever changing game by both sides as there is no reality.

[Guest guest]

Jai Ramji Ki

Jai Radhe Shyam Ki

Jai Bhole Nath

Om Namah Sivayya

 

 

Opinions do not touch anything. And you have only opinions unsupported by scriptures or logic.

 

 

You simply create amusement.

 

 

************

Haven't I, Atanu? I am amazed and quite pleased with the zeal and energy with which you have posted all these notes.

 

{Hey, some one else is the step of Visnu and bolt of Indra.}

 

Yes. Who is it? Rudra? Even poor Rudra needs a role, so he gets one.

**************

 

You and likes of you do not touch my raw nerves Bindu. You just make me compassionate – towards haughty delusion.

 

 

The zeal is from pure unalloyed, un-deluded devotion and dispassion. Not biased and blind like yours. Have you read the story of Chitraketu in Bhagavatam? Try to contemplate and you will see that Chitraketus are none but likes of you.

 

You are very small – nothing. Even Gods fail.

 

YV ii. 6. 8.

 

The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.'

 

 

Bhagavatam

 

the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

 

 

Poor Rudra? You are pitiably deluded by some incomplete Guru and You and your Guru are truly poor and will remain so like Chitraketu.

 

 

 

shvetAshvatara upaniShad

 

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

 

 

Vrikshasyamula Sekena Shakhahpusyanti Vaiyatha Shive Rudre Japatpreteprita Yevasya Devatah (SUTA SAMHITA)

 

By watering the tree at the base of the trunk all the parts of the tree are strengthened. Worshipping Shiva Rudra, all devatas are pleased.

 

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d

 

Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

 

SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA Book 1 TEXT 8.

 

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

 

 

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – Mahat. And She, the Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of mahat Hareh.

 

 

So, Lord Vishnu’s power of cognition, desire and seed is under control of eternal bhagwan Shambhu.

 

 

 

And this guy bindu calls Mahadeva a demi God. Eternal Bhagwan Sambhu becomes laughable to the likes of Chitraketu. Is Shiva bothered. No. Vishnu only punishes them.

 

 

 

*************

{As usual, like in every other case, likes of you cross limits and defeat themselves.}

 

What is the limit? Define it and I will consider not crossing it. But no promises. The one promise I make is not to be uncivil.

 

{If Gita is authority for you (for me it is), show us where it is stated that Siva is demi god?}

 

Gita does not give so much importance to Siva. But did you read my questions in proper order? Please read them again.

***************

 

 

A classic example again. You said one should believe in authority of Gita and then said Siva is a demi god.

 

Well prove it from Gita. You cannot support your lose comments since you do not know the reality of Krishna at all

 

 

9. 11 Avajaananti maam moodhaah maanusheem tanumaashritam;

Param bhaavamajaananto mama bhootamaheshwaram.

 

 

9.11. Fools disregard Me, clad in human form, not knowing My higher Being as the great Lord of (all) beings.

 

 

10.3 Yo maamajamanaadim cha vetti lokamaheshwaram;

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapaapaih pramuchyate.

 

 

10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

 

 

13.13 Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami jjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;

Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

 

 

13.13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginning less supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

 

 

13.17 Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;

Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

 

 

13.17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

 

 

 

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

 

13.23. The spirit in the body is called Mahesvara, the Great Lord, the spectator, the admonisher, the sustainer, the enjoyer, and also the Paramatma, the highest soul.

 

End of citation

 

 

Bindu Baby whether you like it or not, Mahesvara, who is undivided yet appears divided and who is Paramatman and Param Brahman and Para Purusha and yet resides as individual soul has to be known in order to gain immortality.

 

 

And Bindu baby Lord Krishna is truly that unborn Lord – in an embodied form to direct you eventually out of delusion.

 

10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

 

 

Lord is one.

 

 

*******************

{Earn some punya by reading Bhagavatam}

 

I have an excellent copy of Srimad Bhagavatham. I am sure I am earning lots of Punya every time I read it. But I am not concerned about myself. I am concerned about you and other Saivites like yourself.

 

{Repeat: all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva].}

 

Yes. All demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Siva, another demigod. Let me define 'demigod' for you here. A demigod is a minor god. Where Lord Vasudeva is present, everyone else including Siva is a demigod. When Lord Vasudeva is not present in his amazingly beautiful form, Siva can become somewhat of a major god.

 

****************

 

I am not a Saivite. Truly, you must be earning some punya else you would not have got this opportunity to look at scriptures that would tear your veil.

 

 

You make me smile. That is good about you Bindu. Can you support whatever imaginative you write by citing shruti? Except you, no one else believes what you wrote.

 

Bindu says: All demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Siva, another demigod (another demi god is Bindu's addition).

 

 

And friends these Gods who were terribly upset, addressed Siva as Supreme Brahman (well Bindu says just out of politeness).

 

Ha Ha Ha. See what jealousy makes of a man. It makes his logic sense crooked.

 

 

Actually gods said:

 

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

 

 

 

**************

{Please note: the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.}

 

Same comments. "Brahma Murari Surarchita Lingam" is a polite statement. So are passages in Lalitha Sahasranama or Sivananda Lahari or Soundarya Lahiri written by Sankara.

 

*********

 

Ha Ha. When the verse says not even Lord Vishnu understands Siva’s reality, you say Siva, addressed as paramatma, is actually a demi god.

 

 

Actually you are insulting Vishnu and not Shiva who is beyond you.

 

 

************

{Some one is the bolt of Indra and the stepping of Vishnu. Who is that ONE?}

 

We all need stepping stones, bows and arrows (or tools) while accomplishing something. Does that mean Lord Rama's bow is superior to Lord Rama Himself? Does that demon on which Nataraja dances superior to Nataraja? What kind of logic is this?

************

 

 

Smile again, laughter again. Some one is not only the stepping but also the steps of Vishnu and He/She is also the bolt of Indra.

 

 

And since you say that Lord Rama’s bow is not superior to Lord Rama, you should know that Lord Vishnu, Lord Soma, and Lord Agni are part of Rudra’s arrow.

 

 

Do you know it?

 

 

 

 

 

************

Alodya sarva-shastrani vicharya cha punah punah

Idam ekam sunispannam dheyo narayanah sada

 

By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the Supreme Absolute Truth, and thus He alone is to be worshipped.

*************

 

 

Yes I agree whole heartedly. But I feel pity for your delusion. Brahma Sutras says Brahman is Supreme. Rig Veda says Purusha is Supreme. Gita says:

 

 

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

 

13.23. The spirit in the body is called Mahesvara, the Great Lord, the spectator, the admonisher, the sustainer, the enjoyer, and also the Paramatma, the highest soul and Purusha Parah.

 

 

Maha Narayana Upanishad

 

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions.

 

 

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

 

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

 

 

 

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

 

Nidhanapataye Namah !

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

Urdhvaya Namah !

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

Hiranyaya Namah !

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

Suvarnaya Namah !

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

Divyaya Namah !

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Bhavaya Namah !

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

Sarvaya Namah !

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

Shivaya Namah !

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

Jvalaya Namah !

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

Atmaya Namah !

AtmaLingaya Namah !

Paramaya Namah !

Parama Lingaya Namah !

 

------------------

 

 

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

 

 

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

 

 

 

 

shvetAshvatara upaniShad

 

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

 

 

Maha Up.

 

I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body –, he is the Mahesvara.

 

 

 

 

Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness.

 

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

 

 

End of Citation.

 

 

 

I love you Bindu for creating the ambience for revelation of scriptures to many. I hope one day (when you give up ego) you will read all that has been written here calmly and will say to yourself (you may be shy to say in public): “Well I knew incompletely”.

 

And you will be able to say:

 

Jai Ramji Ki

Jai Radhe Shyam Ki

Jai Bhole Nath

Om Namah Sivayya

 

 

As end note:

 

Bhagavatam

 

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

 

 

30. O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance.

 

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

Oh Lord, You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.Aum is all. OM is Vasudeva. OM is Aditi. And Shiva is the shelter of OM.

 

 

Know that Girisa is the shelter of OM. He is the highest loftiest abode of Vishnu.

 

Rig Veda Book 5 HYMN III. Agni.

 

3 The life forces deck their beauty for thy glory, yea, Rudra, for thy birth fair, brightly-coloured. That which was fixed as Visnu's loftiest station-therewith the secret of the Cows thou guardest.

 

 

He himself stands guard to that abode so that impure like you remain far.

 

 

Jai Ramji Ki

Jai Radhe Shyam Ki

Jai Bhole Nath

Om Namah Sivayya

 

[Guest guest]

Vedic knowledge is all about advaitha

••a-dvaita means no difference between object and subject. So the statement "i-know-vedas" is anti advaitic

 

If you experience advaitha, then reading vedas is a great way to expand the experience

••how can you speak ?.. you have never experienced advaita, otherwise you weren't here speaking of it. If you are speaking only theoretically all your speech is useless because advaita is absolutely far from the visible reality

 

The above is hard for everyone to experience

••even for you that you haven't still experienced

 

The vaishnavas of today is a representation of lower intellect

••so what we have to think of your one?

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was careful not to say that 'I know the vedas'. I was aware that I was leaving an impression that vedas can be experienced & thus understood. It really doesn't matter to the world that I know veda or not. This world that's mine, will know automatically about my realization. The I and this world that's mine are not seperate, so there is no need to announce seperately.

 

Here is a recap of vaishnavism, which has emerged only from the doubt & impatience of the people that Vedas & advaitha cannot be experienced in our this lifetime. This is filth.

 

Vishista advaitha preacher's foundation are the following:

 

1. Advaitha knowledge, bramhan realization is difficult, and not for this kali-yuga. So there had to be a smarter way (This is their impatience with their incapability to understand vedas)

 

2. As there is no spiritual realization for them, they associate more value for personalised god. But just to be different from christainity and islam, and to take advantage of the 'made in india' brand or the 'evolved from veda' image, they also recognize the impersonalistic side of god, but this is just recognition without experience.

 

3. They grab attention by speaking down down advaitha and up up vishista advaitha. Their thinking lacks clarity at the highest level. so this way of grabbing atttention is their best bet.

 

4. They recognize all gods and depedning upon the vaishnavic school, their unique POSITIONS assigned to each god in a hierarchy.

 

5. There is no conversion in to vaishnavism so it's harmless. Except that it provides you a social identity, and leaves your individuality & family intact. Vaishnavism has ziltch for the individual progress to realization.

 

6. Shiva considered being lower to vishnu is no mark of higher intellect by vaishnavas. It's garbage, as they have similar ranking, hierarchy and positions for the multiple names of vishnu itself.

[Guest guest]

I was careful not to say that 'I know the vedas'.

--that's not a problem... you can know and you cannot know, it is not our discussion. Simply a realized ADVAITIN cannot know anything because he is no more different from the subjects of knowledge.

If an advaitin speaks, lives, relationates he's a fake

 

all your other considerations are useless for our dialogue... You can maybe demonstrate that dvaitism is a fake, but in this way you do not save of being yourself a fake too

 

(your concern for shiva being called subordinate and other forms of vishnu called subordinate to krsna or whatever is also a pose. You have the maximum despise for all deities because, as advaitaliban you say that they're all maya and the only reality is nirguna brahman..

 

better to be a blissful servant of sri krsna bhagavan than an illusory puppet to introduce ignorants to the first steps of spirituality)

[Guest guest]

******

Simply a realized ADVAITIN cannot know anything because he is no more different from the subjects of knowledge.

***********

 

He He. How do you knpw?

[Guest guest]

The Vedas talk always about

1. the bramhan realization experience

2. And the nature of such a bramahan realised individual

 

Well, in this kali yuga of impatience, doubts & ignorance, the vedas alone cannot maintain the inspiration of indians in Vadic knowledge.

 

We have personalities inspiring us to Vedic knowledge. That's the vishnu avatar. Krishna is supreme among the avatars for the knowledge shared for benefit of any individual in Bagawad geetha.

 

All vaishnavas despise the vishnu avatars in the real sense, as they do not recognise their inpiration to the individual to seek and pursue vedic knowledge (no matter how many lifetimes). The vaishnavas do all sorts of other things with the vishnu avatars & krishna. Talking about the vaishnavas dharma is an insult to Vishnu and such an insult to our assertive inspiring personality Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Simply a realized ADVAITIN cannot know anything because he is no more different from the subjects of knowledge.

***********

He He. How do you knpw?

 

--- from advaitin nonsenses. From this simple statement they should understand that their theory is fantasy.. or better... incomplete

[Guest guest]

The Vedas talk always about

1. the bramhan realization experience

2. And the nature of such a bramahan realised individual

••that's right.... the (2) is especially nice... "brahman realized individual", so any theory who throws away the individuality of the Lord or our individuality is anti-vedic

 

Well, in this kali yuga of impatience, doubts & ignorance, the vedas alone cannot maintain the inspiration of indians in Vadic knowledge.

••it is your exclusive assumption that the personalistic views of the absolute truth are not vedic.

 

We have personalities inspiring us to Vedic knowledge. That's the vishnu avatar. Krishna is supreme among the avatars for the knowledge shared for benefit of any individual in Bagawad geetha.

•••very nice.... that's vedic. Bhagavad Gita is written by the same writer of vedas, if you negate the gita you have no elements to keep vedas alive

 

All vaishnavas despise the vishnu avatars in the real sense, as they do not recognise their inpiration to the individual to seek and pursue vedic knowledge

••your respect is actually a disrespect. If yu say something to me and i understand that you do not exist, but you are only a ficticious character to explain some higher hidden truths, i am offending you.

If krsna says "surrender to me..." i respect him surrendering to him... not considering him a pretext to make ignorants aware of some superior vedic values

 

Talking about the vaishnavas dharma is an insult to Vishnu and such an insult to our assertive inspiring personality Krishna.

••that's your perverted idea... to make you remain happily an atheist, maya has made you think that you have to blasphemy god to worship him

 

be simple.. it is simple...

 

[Guest guest]

**************

--- from advaitin nonsenses. From this simple statement they should understand that their theory is fantasy.. or better... incomplete

 

*************

 

Oh. I see.

[Guest guest]

********

Simply a realized ADVAITIN cannot know anything because he is no more different from the subjects of knowledge

*********

 

By your own submission, an advaitin is suppossed to have become non-different from the subject of knowledge. He becomes the knowledge.

 

 

And He can at free will traverse all four states: Turiya, Pragnya, Taijasya, and Vaisnarava -- to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma). What is there to stop Him? He has become Avimukta.

 

 

Some teachers may be fake no doubt. But the Turiya state and the Turiyatta are not fake. The Turiyatta is the indescribable Lord -- beyond Vak.

 

Mandyuka Up.

 

12. That which is part less is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Sivam and advaitam. Om is the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self

 

 

All Upanishads describe the fourth state as partless.

 

 

********

--- from advaitin nonsenses

**********

 

 

I have requested you earlier and I request you again. You may have differences but your words are not civil.

 

 

 

Sankara never negated the individual gods, else he would not have composed hymns for all dieties that are by far the most popular. But the partless substratum on which AUM resides and on which the Universe resides, cannot be percieved if one does not know the part less Brahman as the Universe.

 

 

Let this be my last correspondence with you, since I barely relish your language.

 

[Guest guest]

Vaishnavas are kali yugas hard-core representation of impatience, doubts & ignorance towards the very purpose of bramhan realization. There can never be anything close to surrender from Vaishnavas, who want to dilute the very life's purpose of bramhan realization.

 

The beautiful word called surrender is well abused by Vaishnavas in all contexts. It's surely not a differentiator of a person today to identify his divine bent of mind, thanks to the over use of the word by without proper understanding.

 

Vaishnavas recall Bagawad geeta more as a way

-how Arjana's act of surrender & confusion with helpless plea

-yielded him the assurance from krishna that he'll win & the enemies will loose (refer krishna's viswa roopa)

-How krishna will continue to face the war from the front

 

 

The vaishnavas don't believe that Arjuna would have gone to battle even without the assurance of who'll win the war (as revealed from Krishna's viswa roopa)

The vaishnavas don't give much value to krishna's advice to arjuna for pursuing for bramhan realization, to identify ones own spiritual personality above the three gunas, and engage in nishkama karma.

 

Any theory when put to practice, siezes to be a theory and becomes a reality. The theory of ego is made into reality as the ignorant direct their actions for egoistic benefits. Vasihanavas are teaching in kali-yuga how to pray for your own ego. I am indifferent to their showbiz & their dharma.

[Guest guest]

By your own submission, an advaitin is suppossed to have become non-different from the subject of knowledge. He becomes the knowledge.

••yes it is supposed.. and it is supposed also that a realized advaitin ceases his individual existence because a-dvaita, means "no dualism". So if you preach advaitism to me, we have three subjects, you.. the preaching and me.

So you canno preach because, being in a dualist state you are not realizing what you preach...

 

to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma)

••karma???? a realized soul with karma to pay?? where's the realization??

 

Sankara never negated the individual gods

••yes.. he's an eternally liberated soul... he chanted "bhaja govindam mudha mate...worship govinda stupid intellectuals.."

 

Let this be my last correspondence with you, since I barely relish your language.

••in this way, annihilating your dialogue, you will start your advaitin realization's process with final disappearance

 

my best wishes

[Guest guest]

The vaishnavas don't believe that Arjuna would have gone to battle even without the assurance of who'll win the war

--vaishnavas believe it from the beginning. Arjuna is cousin of Sri Krsna, of the Supreme PErsonality of Godhead.. and also close and intimate friend. You cannot be in such relationship with the Lord and simultaneously ignorant.

So arjuna is perfectly spiritually conscious and asks questions for our benefit.. he does not need anything, he's a nitya siddha, he's born realized..

 

The vaishnavas don't give much value to krishna's advice to arjuna for pursuing for bramhan realization

••vaishnava give the maximum value because they say that to realize brahman you have to surrender to bhagavan and come back in contact with paramatma. it is advaitalibans who want to enjoy brahman putting aside krsna with the illusion to became themselves as Krsna.... god...

 

The theory of ego is made into reality as the ignorant direct their actions for egoistic benefits.

••so do not be egoist and surrender your ego to Krsna as He says in "sarva dharma.." shloka instead of finding reasons to put krsna aside

 

I am indifferent to their showbiz & their dharma.

••that you are indifferent to dharma is manifest

 

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

Jai Krishna-.-bhaktya-smaranaupasaka Bholenath Ki

 

Dear Atanu,

 

The more I read your posts, the more I like them. I am seeing scholarly knowledge in you. What needs to happen, as the next step, is going beyond Gnyana and reaching Vignyana.

 

{You and likes of you do not touch my raw nerves Bindu. You just make me compassionate – towards haughty delusion. }

 

Very good. That is the right spirit. True Krishna-bhaktas always are compassionate towards others. Like Siva.

 

 

{Poor Rudra? You are pitiably deluded by some incomplete Guru and You and your Guru are truly poor and will remain so like Chitraketu.}

 

Tut tut. My dear fellow, this is not becoming of you. Calling me poor is OK, but calling my Guru poor is truly bad. You know nothing about my Guru, so let's leave him out of the picture.

 

 

{And this guy bindu calls Mahadeva a demi God. Eternal Bhagwan Sambhu becomes laughable to the likes of Chitraketu. Is Shiva bothered. No. Vishnu only punishes them. }

 

I started out with a good feeling towards you, my good chap, but this is not good at all. You want Lord Vishnu to punish me? Why? This is pure illogic. Let me explain why.

 

Assuming that I have made a big blunder in assuming that Lord Vishnu, the Supreme Lord of the universe, is equal to Siva. What is Lord Vishnu? Along with being the Supreme Lord, He is also immeasurably mature and all knowing. Me, I agree that I am finite and very immature compared to Lord Vishnu and even Siva. Why would an infinitely powerful, Omnipotent, Mature entity want to punish someone who might be on the path of learning?

 

You almost talk like Christian preachers who threaten of eternal hell for people who don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

Before we continue to debate (and make no mistake about it, I like debating such issues), I would like to make one point clear: No abusive talk. Do you understand?

 

All the quotations from Saivite scriptures does not mean a thing. My opinion is that you still don't get it. I have no problems explaining it to you again, but I need a response from you first.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well Bindu,

 

You are sensitive. You are hurt by my calling you and your Guru poor?

 

Where does your sensitivity go when your call Shiva a demi god? You are sensitive for yourself and you do not care about others? For you Visnu is Supreme and similarly for many others Shiva is supreme, so understand. For me insult to one is insult to the other.

 

Well no one punishes. Things happen, you know. You may even now read Chitraketu's story from Bhagavatam.

 

 

I definitely do not like to debate on such foolish comparisons of infinity. Sometimes, I just put the records straight.

 

What all I have cited are from Vedas, Gita, or Bhagabhatam. If you consider these Saivite literature then nothing more needs to be said about you and your knowledge.

 

 

And I surely do not debate on Param atma. I respect your choice, which is fully valid. You should also respect other's choice, which is more valid. These choices are made by God. You were given a predisposition and did not create one yourself. The choice is created by God (apparently we think we made the choice).

 

Show which literature is not from Veda/Gita/Bhagavatam?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

******* to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma)

••karma???? a realized soul with karma to pay?? where's the realization??*********

 

Have you heard of Prarabdha karma? If you are unaware about something then have the courage to say so.

 

***********

••yes.. he's an eternally liberated soul... he chanted "bhaja govindam mudha mate...worship govinda stupid intellectuals.."

********

 

I am happy to note this. You may also read his Sivanand Lahari, Dakshinamurti Strotam, Saundarya Lahari, Bhujanga Ashakam, Viveka Chudamani and others.

 

 

Idö t:ð y:ØVt:ö v:a p:rm:eS:v: ka,Ny:j:l:D:ð

g:t:aò et:y:üg:Î -p:ö t:v: p:d eS:rað dS:ün: eD:y:a .

herb:ÒÉaN:aò t:aò edev: B:Øev: c:rnt:aò Â:m:y:Øt:aò

kT:ö S:öB:að sv:aem:n:Î kT:y: m:m: v:ð½aðes: p:Ørt:H /99/

Edö t:ð y:ØVt:ö v:a - is this proper of you

p:rm: eS:v: - Oh Paramasiva, supremely auspicious one

ka,Ny: j:l:D:ð - Oh ocean of compassion (Siva)

g:t:aò et:y:üc:Î -p:ö - they got the form of an animal

t:v: p:d eS:rH - your feet (and) head

dS:ün: eD:y:a - with the intention of seeing

her b:ÒÉaN:aò t:aò - they, Vishnu and Brahma

edev: B:Øev: c:rnt:aò - moving in the heaven and earth

Â:m: y:Øt:aò - they became fatigued

kT:ö S:öB:að sv:aem:n:Î - how Oh Sambhu, bestower of happiness, O Swami

kT:y: - tell

m:m: v:ð½aðes: p:Ørt:H - make yourself known before my eyes

 

They, Vishnu and Brahma, with the intention of seeing your feet (and) head, got the form of an animal (and) they became fatigued, moving in the heaven and earth (in their search). Oh Sambhu, Oh Swami, (then) tell how (you) make yourself known before my eyes ?

Oh Paramasiva, Oh Siva, is this proper of you ?

 

 

Open Up.

[Guest guest]

Advaithic people see krishna as god and take his advice better than anyothers. It's does not have to be proven.

 

It's illusion to regard that vaishnavites consider krishna more supreme than advaithic people. Such an illusion will also lead a person to believe that vaishnavites surrender their ego when praying to Krishna and experience satchitananda.

 

With a hollow ultimate realization of god as both personal & impersonal, is as good as no realization. It's only the ultimate objective which differentiates vaishnavism and advaita. The difference lies due to the hesitation, impatience, doubts, ego & ignorance of vaishnavites for the pursuit of advaithic experience. No prizes for mis-interpreting BG & other krishna's statement to support this negativity.

[Guest guest]

"So if you preach advaitism to me, we have three subjects, you.. the preaching and me.

So you canno preach because, being in a dualist state you are not realizing what you preach..."

 

THis is wrong. Your attachement with your ego prevents you from recognizing your own ego to be seen as a subject in the same level as the subject being preached.

[Guest guest]

So does your (advaitic) religion preach that Love for God is the ultimate goal of live?

[Guest guest]

Have you heard of Prarabdha karma?

--i have heard from you that there are advaitins that not only they live dualism between them and the other individuals, but are also binded by the chain of maya.. and you call them realized and masters.

Again, a master has realized what he explains.. so before become one with the absolute... then you can speak..(and you cannot speak, because whom you speak if you're one?)

---

Advaithic people see krishna as god and take his advice better than anyothers

--so surrender and stop considering krsna something inferior to brahman

 

It's only the ultimate objective which differentiates vaishnavism and advaita.

--yes.. vaishnavas worship god, advaitins worship themselves as god...

 

THis is wrong. Your attachement with your ego prevents you from recognizing your own ego to be seen as a subject in the same level as the subject being preached.

 

--too many "you" for someone who's preaching oneness

[Guest guest]

"--i have heard from you that there are advaitins that not only they live dualism between them and the other individuals, but are also binded by the chain of maya.. and you call them realized and masters.

Again, a master has realized what he explains.. so before become one with the absolute... then you can speak..(and you cannot speak, because whom you speak if you're one?)"

 

If you want to learn of how advaitins live, understand of Vsihnu avatars, atleast one of them. The very purpose of vsihnu avatars in India is to free one from such doubts on personality of realised being, prior to the very pursuit for advaithic experience.

 

It's these doubts & negativity which makes vaishnavas the biggest insulters of all vishnu avatars including Krishna. Vaishnavas with their negativety cannot absorb the inspiration & examples set by Vsihnu avatars. Instead with their negativeity, want to consider vishnu avatars just as mere names to differentiate from anyother god name.

 

 

"--so surrender and stop considering krsna something inferior to brahman"

 

Vaishnavas are sunk in negagtivity, far far deep to lift themselves to normal levels. And they are sunk in negagtivity taking the names of all the gods, & all the books of wisdom. Every possible book wisdom & inspirational names have been used by Vaishnavas, and they are still sunk in negativity.

 

 

"--yes.. vaishnavas worship god, advaitins worship themselves as god..."

 

Yes vaishnavas worship god as external to them. Vasihnavas value the filth of bodily & eogistic attachements, more than the divine spirit in them. The divine spirit in them is thus let gone, and the filthy attachement to their ego & body is termed as Jiva. Well, no arguments here, vaishnavites will argue that Jiva is personal & impersonal. The impersonal side of Jiva is spiritual, expecting an advaithin not to question thus their love for their ego. Even supreme god, scriptures, showmanship nothing can stop ones OWN WILL from loving EGO. Vaishnavas are a clear examples of it from head to toe.

 

Like the porn drawing outside a temple to test your integrity with your spiritual self than your bodily self, the vishista advaitha is there around advaithic knowledge to inject the love for body & ego as a hidden agenda, purely in the name of god.

 

It's only through sheer luck & high capability of viveka, can one obtain the essence of advaithic knowledge.