Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

[thiruvengadam]

another rebel?

do u know who a rebel is? well if iam a rebel to u then dont forget ur a reble to me....well how can i expect u to understand things for u are the person who calls others fool...so u must be a very wise sage....

 

and again i know that u dont understand the meaning of what is implied and can only talk about ur own opinions....the intension of my previous post was just to make clear that Shiva is not a mortal who is born lived and so died...so the quote though right is not applicable to Shiva(and the whole thread is only about Shiva and Vishnu and not whether Ram and Krishna are forms of Vishnu...when i said no saivite will equate a born to Vishnu i didnt consider Ram and Krishn...its u who has now given room for this controversy)and that quote of Shyam (to whom u completely agree) " None who ever lived or yet to be born will equal or surpass the Mahima of VishNu " . holds absolutely true....i never wanted to pull in Ram and krishn....its has always been ur folly (note: folly is not calling a person fool, folly is a person's foolishness...)to misinterpret

 

one more thing...if u completely agree with that Shyam then u also accept that quote

" None who ever lived or yet to be born will equal or surpass the Mahima of VishNu " .

so its ur responsibility to prove how Ram and Krishna dont fit into this category....according to the quote it states 'none who ever lived'...now Ram and Krishn lived in this earth...so prove urself...to have put urself into the trap...either state the quote wrong or say that Ram and Krishna are inferior to Vishnu (i know that talking about inferiority and superiority gives u a lot of pleasure)

 

[thiruvengadam]

 

Srimad Bhagavatha Purana states it clearly, as does Sri Tulasidas's Ramacharita Manas. Where Lord Vishnu is physically present, every other god is a demigod

 

quote it from Bhagavatham and let us see what exactly it implies (for ur not very good in interpretition)

 

Well, you are wrong. I have not only said Lord Krishna is Maheshvara (Great Lord) but also Parameshvara (Supreme Lord). There is none other than Lord Krishna.

 

 

as far as i know Mahesvara and Parameshvara are the adjectives for Shiva.....it has become a common thing for u ppl to claim all the glory of Shiva to Vishnu....when some great sage talks about Shiva u say 'no no he actully talks about Vishnu and not Shiva'....enough of ur childishness

 

You have provided a whole lot of information without understanding or contributing any original idea.

 

 

look who is saying what.....hey grow up and prove those statements from RV wrong (if u have guts)....

 

If you are in love with Siva and you cannot go past Siva's image of a Yogi meditating on Sriman Narayana, then so be it. But don't say I did not warn you. Srimad Bhagavad-Gita admonishes people from worshipping Kshudra-Devatas although, unfortunately Lord Krishna does not define a Kshudra-Devata. Here-in comes the difficulty. Which is why worshipping Lord Krishna in his beautiful human form is the best way. That way, you won't go wrong. On the other hand, if one wants to meditate on Sriman Narayana (Parama Purusha), that is OK too.

 

 

so do i warn u...seeing Shiva inferior to Vishnu is a great sin...Shiva's heart is Vishnu and Vishnu's heart is Shiva.....let u not say that none stopped u from ur folly...

 

Also, Srimad Bhagavad-Gita states that people with Asuri-character worship Kshudra Devatas. Whom do the Asuras worship generally? Siva

 

oh....the devas worshipped shiva many times ...are they asuras then? many sages have prayed to Shiva...are they asuras? then for whom has the Maha Mirthinjaya Manthra written?

 

the asuras have worshipped Brahma many times.....so who is Brahma? is he Gos of asuras? and more over who created asuras if not for God himself? if God has created everything then all that has been created by Him pray to Him....so the asuras also pray.....

 

All the quotes you have provided from the Vedas are wonderful but all that can be set aside in front of Lord Hari.

 

 

thats what i have always called ur fooly.....every thing said about Shiva, u very easily claim to be that of vishnu...

 

may be i should handle a different approach...next time u qoute anything from any text, i should be saying it only talks about Shiva and not Vishnu....well iam going to do it next time.....

 

Poof! That shows your knowledge. Lord Vishnu is not asleep, He is in Yoga-Nidra.

 

 

all ur posts have already shown us ur knowledge...

u ppl ask to whom is shiva meditating to? now i ask towards whom is Vishnu in yoga nidra? dont make a fool of urself by seeing Shiva and Vishnu seperately.....

[Guest guest]

Thiruvengadam do not waste your energy and time to question this mentally deranged jiva (BinduMadav). This individual has spoken many claims but yet to post any actual regerence and quotations. Let him be, when a dog barks on the street what do we do ? We mind our own business and carry onn. It is the dogs jaw that will be in pain. So Bindu will soon realize for his foolishness and falsity claims. Many of his post proves he is jelous of Saivites, Why does he bring a bad influence to the Vaishnava society ?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is amusing to see you blaming me for claiming "My father is greatest". See who created the post claiming supremacy of his own father?

 

 

 

********

Dear Atanu,

{As usual your post is condescending as if you are the great teacher who knows all.}

Hypocrisy, thy name is Atanu! You say, "Bindu baby", or, "for the sake of this discussion I come down to your level." and you says I am condescending? My good man, you are exceedingly interesting.

*************

 

 

Dear Bindu baby. I call you baby since I love you. But you are ticked. With fury you have gone down to call Shiva Kshudra-Devata and as usual as a mere opinion. This is no more insulting but it is amusing.

 

 

**************

"First you have to show scripture to support your claim that Shiva is a demi-god."

 

Srimad Bhagavatha Purana states it clearly, as does Sri Tulasidas's Ramacharita Manas. Where Lord Vishnu is physically present, every other god is a demigod. Didn't I define the word 'Demigod' for you earlier?

************

 

Show the scripture.

 

On the other hand, I show:

 

Bhagavatam

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since your effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

 

 

Rig Veda Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-effulgent, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

 

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

 

Note: All Narasmsa, ------, Maruts, Visnu ---- claim and merit praise on account of Him alone -- the self effulgent Rudra.

 

 

 

 

*********

{You have said that Moksha is granted by Lord Krishna alone, assuming that the self of Lord Krishna is not mahesvara. You are wrong. }

 

Well, you are wrong. I have not only said Lord Krishna is Maheshvara (Great Lord) but also Parameshvara (Supreme Lord). There is none other than Lord Krishna.

***********

 

Well you have not commented about the mantra itself, which is liberation mantra addressed to Tryambaka. Whereas earlier you said: “Moksha is granted by Lord Krishna alone”.

 

This is called dodging and I give you full marks for that.

 

Bhagawan Shiva is Paramesvara, who comes down as Vishnu (a generic name) in different forms at different times.

 

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

 

*********

You have provided a whole lot of information without understanding or contributing any original idea.

*********

 

Where is your info and proof? Mere comedy will not do. You say that nothing original has been contributed by me. That shows your understanding. Vedas are ever original. Nothing can surpass Vedas.

 

Anything original from you?

 

 

*********

Also, Srimad Bhagavad-Gita states that people with Asuri-character worship Kshudra Devatas. Whom do the Asuras worship generally? Siva.

**********

 

Vishnu, Rishi Kanva, Agastya, Vashishita. They are Asuric?

 

 

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Section XIV

 

Krishna -16000 Wives (Part 1)

 

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

 

 

 

**********

{Shiva never sleeps. Lord Vishnu is supported by Adisesha and goes to sleep on Adi Sesha.}

 

Poof! That shows your knowledge. Lord Vishnu is not asleep, He is in Yoga-Nidra.

***********

 

 

Poof! I also go to Yoga Nidra. I just woke up from one.

 

 

Demonic are those who abuse Param Atman, Purusha Parah, Param Braham, Mahesvara, and Param Ishwara who resides as the Self.

 

Isa

3. Demonic verily are the worlds which are enveloped in blinding darkness. And to them go, after death, those who harm their inner selves.

 

Repeat who harm their inner selves are demonic and to demons they go like Chitraketu.

 

 

But your condition is natural since even this is written in Rig Veda.

 

 

Rig Veda HYMN CLV. Visnu-Indra.

------

3 ------- He lowers, though a son, the Father's highest name; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven

 

 

 

Lord Vishnu your grandeur and your lofty works overshadow the highest name of the Father. But the sages have prayed for the third name as your reality which is high in the heaven and so I also pray Lord:

 

 

 

Lord Param Padam, I have been insolent in defense of your unborn and true Param Atman nature. Lord please forgive my insolence. Pray grant me grace and reveal the Truth beyond your grandeur.

 

 

Narad Pancharatra:

 

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

 

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

 

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

 

 

 

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death (Maha Narayana Upanishad).

 

 

 

Rig Veda 10.191.3

 

sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

 

 

 

Lord, pray hold our hands and lead us to the truth.

 

[BinduMadhav]

{well if iam a rebel to u then dont forget ur a reble to me}

 

The word rebel is not to be used so loosely. Conflicting opinions do not make rebels of two people. A rebel is one that rises against popular and established tradition, process or system.

 

By the way, why do you use 'u', 'iam' and such other short forms? Are you a college kid? Just curious.

[BinduMadhav]

{It is amusing to see you blaming me for claiming "My father is greatest". See who created the post claiming supremacy of his own father?}

 

Your father? My father? There is only one Father. It is Lord Krishna Vasudeva.

 

Atanu, you don't believe in seeing problems with yourself, do you? Atanu Hypocritus shall be your future name.

 

 

{Well you have not commented about the mantra itself, which is liberation mantra addressed to Tryambaka. Whereas earlier you said: “Moksha is granted by Lord Krishna alone”.

 

This is called dodging and I give you full marks for that.}

 

Who is dodging the issue here? Yes, there is this passage somewhere in the scriptures, although it is added as an afterthought after the 11th Anuvaka of Rudram. But since Triyambaka is actually the creation of Brahma, who is Lord Vishnu's creature, it follows that even if Triyambaka might be given the opportunity by Lord Vishnu to allow people a way out, the only true way out is through Lord Krishna.

 

{Note: All Narasmsa, ------, Maruts, Visnu ---- claim and merit praise on account of Him alone -- the self effulgent Rudra.}

 

We have gone over this before. Advaitins have come up with this method. Just like Adi Sankara's method of Panchayatana worship. When you worship Siva, he takes the prime spot. When you worship Lord Vishnu, He will be in the prime spot. The Advaitins totally neglected the Vedic tradition to hold only ONE God, the Parama Purusha, Paramatma, Parameshvara, who is Lord Narayana Vasudeva Himself.

 

{Bhagawan Shiva is Paramesvara, who comes down as Vishnu (a generic name) in different forms at different times.}

 

Atanu Hypocritus, if you consider Vishnu an attribute of the Lord, then Siva is also an attribute of the Lord. Learn a little Samskrit, my good fellow!

 

Vishnu = The All Pervading. In fact, even Rudram has this piece in the 12th Anuvaka, which is taken from different parts of scriptures like Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

 

Siva = One who is auspicious

 

And for the sake of your friends like Tiruvenkatam and others, all names have meanings.

 

Parameshvara = Parama+Ishvara = Supreme Lord

 

etc.

 

{Vishnu, Rishi Kanva, Agastya, Vashishita. They are Asuric?}

 

Lord Vishnu? Pure fiction by Saivites, who have twisted the true stories written by great Vaishnavites. Lord Vishnu never worshipped Lord Shiva.

 

Same with Vasishta. He was primarily a worshipper of Lord Vishnu, just as Parashara, Vyasa, Shuka, Narada, Markandeya, and the whole retinue of Rishis and Devarshis and Brahmarshis.

 

If you want to quote a Saivite Rishi, Gautama is one. Vishvamitra about half and half. Gautama is called Rudrapriya.

 

{The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….}

 

It shows the greatness of Lord Krishna Vasudeva, the Paramatman. He does not have to worship anyone but He becomes an example to others by worshipping His own Bhakta.

 

 

{Poof! I also go to Yoga Nidra. I just woke up from one.}

 

You did? How long did that last? That is the question. Assuming that you are capable of Yoga Nidra (which is the state of Sushupti from sleep or Turiya when achieved directly from wakeful state), one does not last too long in that state. Unlike Lord Narayana, who stays for long periods of time.

 

How long did you last in the state of Turiya, my good friend?

 

 

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

My dear Tiruvengadam,

 

I love your name, by the way. So sweetly Tamil. Reminds me of Lord Venkateshvara.

 

{as far as i know Mahesvara and Parameshvara are the adjectives for Shiva}

 

Just a quick lesson in Hinduism for you. All these are adjectives for God. That includes the name Siva. They all refer to Lord Krishna Paramatma.

 

{so do i warn u...seeing Shiva inferior to Vishnu is a great sin...Shiva's heart is Vishnu and Vishnu's heart is Shiva.....let u not say that none stopped u from ur folly...}

 

Dear Tiruvengadam, you should stop frothing with anger like this. Yes, yes, Saivites have claimed that Siva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Siva. If that is so, why do our Puranas speak of Siva (with a pitchfork, water oozing out of his Jata, a half-moon on his head, etc) and Lord Vishnu (Shanka-Chakra-Gada-Padma Dhari, benign and sweet)?

 

I have never ever insulted Siva. He is my prime example for Guru. I accept him as the Parama Vaishnav, the Dakshinamurthy that shows all the true way to Lord Krishna.

 

{dont make a fool of urself by seeing Shiva and Vishnu seperately.....}

 

Another Advaitin from the school of Appayya Dikshitar talking. I like you a lot, my good friend Tiruvengadam. May Lord Krishna bless you!

 

 

 

 

[thiruvengadam]

Bindhu Bindu...u seriously make me laught....thanks for the entertainment

 

iam not a college kid...and by the way when u refer to the word 'kid' i just wonder who is a kid?....u might not be in college but the pity is that u talk like a kid....no wonder Om NamaShivaya address u as Bindhu Baby

 

and mind u a college kid can show great knowledge than u....ThiruJananaSambanthar was only 3 when he sang Devaram (i think u might not be familiar with Devaram.....one has to be bless to know about it... it think u r a Tamilian)

 

just for the sake of ur curiousity iam 22(turning 23 this month end)...working as a Software Engg....at Bangalore....i hail from Coimbatore (its in Tamil Nadu)...hope this would have made u happy

 

curiosity kills the cat

[thiruvengadam]

before i reply to ur post 'Now I have a second combatant (Grin)! '

 

a few lines from Lingashtakam

 

brahmamurArisurArchitalingam

nirmalabAshitasSobitalingam|

janmaladukkavinASakalingam

tat praNamAmi sadASivalingam||

 

 

and if u wonder what they mean....just look down

 

i bow before that Sadashivalinga, which is adored by Brahma, Vishnu, and other gods:

which is hailed by pure words and which destroys the cycle of birth and death.

 

 

is this enough or do u want more?

[thiruvengadam]

thx for complimenting my name....yes iam a pure Tamilian (sarvam Shivamayam)

 

and thx for ue quick lesson on hinduism....was just wondering who needs it more than me...and guess what...ur name poped up immediately

 

They all refer to Lord Krishna Paramatma

Krishna also refers to Shiva...Vishnu refers to Shiva

 

was i frothing with anger? i though i was laughing till tears come from my eyes....Saivites dont claim Siva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Siva...saivites dont claim anything for they know that ever thing is Shivam...if u dont know the diff. b/w Shivam and Shiva then its ur ignorance....is u dont know Shivam then u dont know a Lingam...

 

and if u know Shivam then u will aslo know why do our Puranas speak of Siva (with a pitchfork, water oozing out of his Jata, a half-moon on his head, etc) and Lord Vishnu (Shanka-Chakra-Gada-Padma Dhari, benign and sweet)?

 

ooooooooooooo u call shiva as a demi god and then say "I have never ever insulted Siva"

 

Another Advaitin from the school of Appayya Dikshitar talking. I like you a lot, my good friend Tiruvengadam. May Lord Krishna bless you!

 

 

i like u too and thats why iam reply to all ur folly...and for ur kind info until i camr to this forum i didnt even know Appayya Dikshitar

 

 

now coming to our discussion

 

my dear Bindhu u have not answered many of my questions...

 

if u just read through my posts again u will find that many of my questions are unanswered...just to cite one...u have not given me the anser to my question 'towards whom is Vishnu in yoga nidra?'

 

reat after u reply...and dont forget to reply for that quote from Lingashtagam.....pls dont say that the lingam in lingashtakam was not Shiva but Vishnu....pls for God's sake give me a break

[thiruvengadam]

every thing has a meaning ok....

 

but Shivam=?

 

ParamIshvar = SupremeLord ok but it has been used to address Shiva many times...what say u?

 

{The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….}

 

It shows the greatness of Lord Krishna Vasudeva, the Paramatman. He does not have to worship anyone but He becomes an example to others by worshipping His own Bhakta.

 

 

Bindhu no one can entertain me other than u....when Vishnu prays to Shiva then its the greatness of Vishnu but when Shiva prays to Vishnu its not Shiva's greatness....o my God i just cant stop laughing /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif....very funny...it only shows ur mentality Bindhu.....

 

expecting ur reply for Vishnu's yoga nidra and ur reply for Lingasktakam

[Guest guest]

Shivam. Shivam.

 

Rudra the Universe's Father, great, lofty, blissful, achyutam, cipivista

 

 

As usual you give all opinion without a single proof. Egoistic persons can never accept in public their folly but inside they bleed. It will be your folly if you ever think that I am laboring to clear your doubts or winning points since I know your types to be incorrigible egotists. It is for others who may read this post.

 

 

 

******

Your father? My father? There is only one Father. It is Lord Krishna Vasudeva.

 

Atanu, you don't believe in seeing problems with yourself, do you? Atanu Hypocritus shall be your future name.

*******

 

 

Others have already recognized you as the hypocrite. Read the thread.

 

 

Yes there is only one father and Vedas say it emphatically it is Rudra – the soul of all. Vishnu has a birth and not Shiva. If Rudra is said to have birth it is because He is all -- Sarva.

 

Soma (Sa-Uma) is the father of heaven, earth, Vishnu, and Indra. Soma is the seed prolific for birth of Adityas and Vishnu. He is the highest heaven where Vak resides.

 

 

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

 

 

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

 

 

 

HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas.

 

34 I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is the centre of the world, I ask thee. I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of highest heaven where Speech abideth.

 

35 This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.

THE STALLION'S SEED PROLIFIC IS THE SOMA; THIS BRAHMAN HIGHEST HEAVEN WHERE SPEECH ABIDETH.

 

 

 

And Vishnu is a son, he has a birth.

 

RV HYMN CLV. Visnu.

 

3 ------HE LOWERS, THOUGH A SON, THE FATHER'S HIGHEST NAME; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

 

Vishnu is born. Vishnu is a son. Whereas Rudra is Achyutam, Self dependent and universal father who is lofty and blissful.

 

 

RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

 

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the UNIVERSE'S FATHER. HIM GREAT AND LOFTY, BLISSFUL, ACHYUTAM, LET US CALL ESPECIALLY AS THE SAGE IMPELS US.

 

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

 

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the SELF-DEPENDENT GOD with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

 

 

 

*****

Who is dodging the issue here? Yes, there is this passage somewhere in the scriptures, although it is added as an afterthought after the 11th Anuvaka of Rudram. But since Triyambaka is actually the creation of Brahma, who is Lord Vishnu's creature, it follows that even if Triyambaka might be given the opportunity by Lord Vishnu to allow people a way out, the only true way out is through Lord Krishna.

*********

 

You are lower than anything. You say : there is this passage somewhere in the scriptures. It is in Rig Veda. Your irreverence is clear.

 

You are fooling yourself and none else. Your ego is fooling you. You know that you have no truth but only false egoity that makes you to hold on to your tortuous arguments, which a child can find amusing.

 

 

Rig Veda 7.59.12

 

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

 

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

 

 

The simple truth is that the prayer is to Tryambaka and not to Krishna or Vishnu. Rest is all cooking of your putrid mind.

 

 

 

***********

{Note: All Narasmsa, ------, Maruts, Visnu ---- claim and merit praise on account of Him alone -- the self effulgent Rudra.}

 

We have gone over this before. Advaitins have come up with this method. ***********

 

 

What do you mean? Veads and not advaitins say that Vishnu claims and merits praise on account of Rudra.

 

 

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

And Visnu forms quarters through Indra’s energy. Thus he sings praises, lauds and extols Indra.

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

 

--------

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

 

 

Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

 

 

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

 

RV Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

 

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

 

 

 

Every thing is consistent. But shameless egoistic persons will never accept their folly in public but in their inside they bleed.

 

 

 

**********

{Bhagawan Shiva is Paramesvara, who comes down as Vishnu (a generic name) in different forms at different times.}

 

Atanu Hypocritus, if you consider Vishnu an attribute of the Lord, then Siva is also an attribute of the Lord. Learn a little Samskrit, my good fellow!

 

Vishnu = The All Pervading. In fact, even Rudram has this piece in the 12th Anuvaka, which is taken from different parts of scriptures like Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

 

Siva = One who is auspicious

 

And for the sake of your friends like Tiruvenkatam and others, all names have meanings.

 

Parameshvara = Parama+Ishvara = Supreme Lord

****************

 

 

 

See how you ease my burden.

 

From Upanishad you cite: Namo Rudraya Vishnave. Rudra is Vishnave. Yajur Veda also gives Sipivista among the hundred names of Rudra.

 

 

YV iv. 5. 5

 

f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista.

 

 

If you require more proof.

 

 

YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

 

YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

 

 

 

Rudra’s attribute is of pervading and not the other way around. It is there in Rig Veda also.

 

 

 

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

 

2 He through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power.

 

 

 

 

*************

{The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….}

 

It shows the greatness of Lord Krishna Vasudeva, the Paramatman. He does not have to worship anyone but He becomes an example to others by worshipping His own Bhakta.

************

 

 

Oh yes. Lord Bindu. Lord Krishna says “You are the truth”. You have blinds?

 

 

 

 

******

{Poof! I also go to Yoga Nidra. I just woke up from one.}

 

How long did you last in the state of Turiya, my good friend?

**********

 

When did I talk about Turiya? Is Yoga Nidra mentioned in shrutis as the fourth state? I know only Turiya – which is the fourth state and a waking state.

 

 

 

And listen, if you are serious then cite some scriptures from Vedas on Krishna, else pay heed to the followings.

 

 

Narad Pancharatra:

 

 

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

 

'An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

 

 

 

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death (Maha Narayana Upanishad).

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

*********

{The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….}

 

It shows the greatness of Lord Krishna Vasudeva, the Paramatman. He does not have to worship anyone but He becomes an example to others by worshipping His own Bhakta.

********

 

 

It appears Vishnu himself came and told you this. Isn't it?.

 

 

Give us more like this please.

 

[Guest guest]

I had not read it earlier.

 

To a guest who alleges that most works of sankara were written by some one else, Bundu writes:

 

-------------

I totally agree with you. Many scholars have opined that Sankara's Sivananda Lahari, Soundarya Lahari and others are not original works of Sankara. I did not know, however, that Appayya Dikshitar had written them. It sounds very logical since Appayya Dikshitar was a staunch Saivite as well as a worshipper of Goddess Uma and he hated Lord Vishnu. He also wrote a book called 'Sivaadhikya'. Perhaps Atanu Bhai has read that thoroughly.

----------------

 

 

Bindu says the allegation is sound and logical since 'Appayya Dikshitar was a staunch Saivite as well as a worshipper of Goddess Uma'.

 

 

Friends see the logic? Since Appaya was a staunch Saivaite he must have written Sivananda Lahari, Soundarya Lahari and others.

 

 

So, the Shri Rudram part of Yajur Veda was olso written by Appaya, possibly? Eh Bindu.

 

 

[Guest guest]

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva

Guest the following part appears in Mahabharata.

 

Section XIV

 

Krishna -16000 Wives (Part 1)

 

The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….

 

 

 

And the following was told to Bindu by Lord Vishnu himself.

 

"It shows the greatness of Lord Krishna Vasudeva, the Paramatman. He does not have to worship anyone but He becomes an example to others by worshipping His own Bhakta"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

{So, the Shri Rudram part of Yajur Veda was olso written by Appaya, possibly? Eh Bindu.}

 

Dear Atanu: You have to read my comments a little more carefully and with a little more open mind. I did not say that Appayya Dikshitar wrote Shivananda Lahari etc only because he is a staunch saivite. I said that the theory that he wrote them is very plausible because he is a staunch saivite. There is a big difference there.

 

You really must read his 'Sivadhikya' (Siva-Adhikya, or the Superiority of Siva [over Vishnu]). It is truly very interesting and amusing, although for a Vaishnavite like myself, it can be infuriating.

 

Appayya Dikshitar was a brilliant scholar and a great man. Like I said, he was a staunch Saivite who called himself a Siva-Advaiti although later he joined Adi Sankara's school and became a pure Advaitin. But it is well known in the south that Appayya Dikshitar hated Vishnu and the Vaishnavites, at least before he joined Sankara's school. Unfortunately, intolerance towards Vaishnavites and Jains was a hallmark of some of the Tamilians at around his time.

 

He lived around 200 years ago in Tamil Nadu. He could not have written Sri Rudram.

[BinduMadhav]

{The blessed Vishnu said: "I salute Mahadeva. Salutations to Thee. O Thou that art eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that Thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that Thou art Penance, Thou art Sattwa, Thou art Rajas, Thou art Tamas, and Thou art truth…….}

 

I have read this whole episode in Mahabharatha. What is curious is that this appears in Anushasana Parva, towards the very end of Mahabharatha story. There is a theory I read somewhere that this story was added after Krishnadvaipayana Vyasa's demise by Saivite scholars, although I did not see proof that it happened so. But one of the interesting points the writer of the article said is that, Upamanyu, who by some other counts, was of much earlier era, suddenly appeared in Lord Krishna's youth when He went to the Himalayas to do Tapas towards Siva for a son.

 

Again, I am offering this bit of info to you for enrichment of your knowledge, not to insult you or your Siva. I love Siva myself and I follow his example every day.

[Guest guest]

Bindu, where do you keep comming up with this "i read it somewhere or i heard it somewhere" theories and then you use that as proof against all the visitors to this forum. You are so incompetent and the more you write the more you prove your foolishness to others.

 

Do you know that you are also a devotee of Shiva, since all the topic you participate you keep bringing up about Shiva. So he is always in your thought more than Vishnu. Because every second you are thinking of how to counter argue about Shiva. People who are always thinking of Shiva are his devotees.

 

Just like kamsa who was hater of Krishna, but he is always thinking about krishna every moment. At the end we found out that Kamsa was really a devotee of vishnu that took birth of Asura to quickly reach his lord.

 

Eventhough your posts are full of Hot Air, i admire you in such a way that you are always thinking about Shiva.

[BinduMadhav]

{every thing has a meaning ok....

 

but Shivam=?}

 

Shivam Bhadram Kalyanam Mangalam Shubham. It is Amarakosha I am quoting you. They are synonyms and they mean something auspicious, something that results in the general good.

 

So what if Parameshvara is used to address Siva many times? The meaning of Parameshvara is Supreme Lord.

 

{Bindhu no one can entertain me other than u....}

 

I am so glad to be of service!!! And I thought you did not have a sense of humor (Grin).

 

{expecting ur reply for Vishnu's yoga nidra and ur reply for Lingasktakam}

 

Lord Vishnu is the Supreme Lord of the Universe. He is the Infinite Life-Provider. He does not sleep. He provides the support for the Universe. Yoga Nidra is His mode of existence when passively providing support for the Universe.

 

Siva, on the other hand, is constantly in meditation of Lord Vishnu. Like BrahmA, Siva depends upon Sriman Narayana.

 

Now what about Lingashtakam? Are you referring to the first sentence: 'Brahma Murari Surarchita Lingam?'? Sure, Murari, or Lord Krishna, worshipped Siva. I have explained many times why: To set an example. Lord Krishna could have done anything. But He went through all stages of life, went to a Gurukulam, etc etc; because He wanted to be a role model for others. How would it have been perceived by others if Lord Krishna had rejected Siva? Then Saivism would have fallen by the way-side just like worship of Indra is now non-existent.

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

My dear Atanu,

 

Look at some of the things you have written here.

 

{Others have already recognized you as the hypocrite. Read the thread}

 

{You are lower than anything.}

 

{Rest is all cooking of your putrid mind.}

 

{But shameless egoistic persons will never accept their folly in public but in their inside they bleed.}

 

{Oh yes. Lord Bindu. Lord Krishna says “You are the truth”. You have blinds? }

 

I am beginning to see a pattern after reading your (and some others') posts. Is a Saivite an expert at using foul language? Is this what Adi Sankara taught you? Have you read the first conversation between Mandana Mishra and Sankara, and later, their debate?

 

There is a saying that a person using an argument resorts to abusive language and actions.

 

You are another person that I am sorry for.

[Guest guest]

********

I love Siva myself and I follow his example every day

*******

 

You are insincere for all to see. You start the trhread with worship of Shiva and Worship of Lord Vishnu.

 

Then what is indicative of controller of Gunas that you term as pirch fork.

 

And many more. All these wthout proof. You are insincere. And that will harm none but you.

 

It is not surprising that Dakshas do not pay heed.

[Guest guest]

*******

I am beginning to see a pattern after reading your (and some others') posts. Is a Saivite an expert at using foul language?

********

 

 

Nothing is as low as your thoughts of Shiva -- demi god, pitch fork holding, water oozing etc. etc.

 

Nothing is as low as 'demented fool' that you used. If you are now ticked, know that this is very mild compared to the plight of Dakshas -- who knowingly insult Shiva.

 

You have been provided with scriptures but you pay no heed and you continue to abuse Shiva. Note below who are advanced in spiritual consciousness.

 

 

Bhagavatam

 

22. O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

 

And note below who are low and shameless.

 

33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

 

 

 

Bindu, I did not abuse you. Bhagavatam defines shamelessness as irreverence towards Shiva.

 

 

Since, Shiva is shelter of AUM.

 

25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m.

 

 

 

Wish you best my friend.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i have learnt that its of no use trying to wake a person who is pretending to sleep.....this will be my last post to u....

 

how funny it is to learn from u that when Vishnu is in yoga nidra, He is aiding the world but when shiva is in yoga u call Him to be meditating on Hari...very funny....go on ur way and one Day hope God opens ur eyes...

 

i end my post with just one more quote from Lingasktakam

 

suragurusuravarapUjitalingam

suravanapushpasadArchitalingam|

parAtparam paramAtmakalingam

tat praNamAmi sadAShivalingam||

 

I bow before that Sadashivalinga, which is worshipped by devas and their gurus with flowers from the divine garden;

which is the Transedent Being and the Supreme Self (paramAtma)

 

 

if u still decide to call Shiva as a Demi God then its ur fate...i cant help (the above quote clearly calls Shiva as Transcendent and ParamAthama (supreme self)

 

all the best.....u shall no more hear from me....

 

(in tamil there is a proverb Dhustanan kanda doora velagu- if u see a bad person go as far as possible from him....

[Guest guest]

Rig Veda 7.59.12

 

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

 

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

--------------------------

 

now immortality here is granted because the mantra is addressed to the antaryami of Rudra. Visnu is the Antaryami. in the vedas Indra says that he is the ultimate. Vamadeva Rishi says that he is manu,he is everything etc. these are said in the vedas because in these places the vedas identify the atma with its antaryami paramatma. just as it says 'Aham Brahmosmi'.

 

now Purusha Sukta says 'Tam evam vidvaan amritaiha bhavati'

only by knowing the Parama Purusha can one attain moksha.

the Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta in Taittreya identifies the ParamaPurusha as 'Hreeshcha te LAKSHMISCHA PATNYOU' - 'Hree(bhumi) and Lakshmi are Your wives' and it is well known that Lakshmi pati is Visnu and also Bhumi is a patni of VIsnu. so only by knowing Visnu can one attain Moksha. Rudra has no place here. alsoo the Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta finds a place in Sankara's commentary on Taittreya and thus Sankara has accepted the legitimacy of the mantras.

 

 

now if u know Sanskrit grammar and the various rules then try to translate the mantras or else follow Sayana. don't misinterpret the mantras.

 

mow I have given the reasons as to why Rudra names are referring to Narayana. just because I am named Shyam I acnnot become Krishna and same is the case with Rudra Deva who was given names by his father Brahma Deva.

(Shatapatha Brahmana clearly mentions it and so also Shailali brahmana)

 

--------------------------Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

 

 

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

--------------------------

 

here Sayana says "When Visnu for your energy, strode wide those three great steps of His,........"

Visnu did that for the sake of Indra's energy. Sayana says so but u consider it the other way. even Bhagavat Puran states that Visnu took those steps to help Visnu which has its basis in the above mantras and various other mantras of Rg Veda. don't consider urself to be more intelligent than Sayana.

 

 

 

--------------------------Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

 

1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise.

 

 

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

 

 

Note: Visnu sings Indra’s praise

--------------------------

 

what to note? this once again shows ur hypocrisy. Sayana says that Visnu,Varuna and Mitra applaude Indra's praise rather than sing his praise. try to be more precise in ur translation.

 

 

how can Rudra who cries on being born that he is Anapahatapapma ie he is not cleansed of his sins be the Parambrahman. if u think so then u too will have to cry just like ur deity, Rudra deva.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Following are vakyas from Shatapatha Brahmana,

Bhootanam ca Prajapatis samvatsaraya dikshitah | Bhootanam pathir gruhapathir aaseet |

Usha Patni | …………….. bhootanam pathis samvatsara ushasi rodho(a)sinchat | Samvatsare kumaro jayatha | sorodheeth | tam prajapathirabraveet | kumara kim rodhishi | yachhramath tapasodhi jathoseethi | so(a)braveet anapahatapapma vaa ahamanahithanama | nama me dehi paapno(a)pahatya iti | tam punah prajapathi braveet | rudro(a)seethi | ……….. rudropavachcharva isanah pathir bhima ugra iti sapta namani |

 

"The pati of bhoota and praja, Brahma deva, underwent diksha for one year. He was a Grihasta. His wife was Usha. …….. Brahma deva let his veerya ( ‘rodho(a)sinchat’) to Usha. In a year, a son was born. The son cried. Brahma asked him, “ Son! Why are u crying. I got u as child after tough tapasya. The son said, “ I am not cleansed of sins. To wipe out my sins give me names. Brahma again told him, “ Let your name be Rudra.” …….. Rudra, charva, isana, pathi(pasupathi), bhima, ugra – these seven names (were given by Brahma deva)"

 

From the above it is clear that Rudra has a normal birth from a woman’s womb and his birth is ‘Karmavash’. Because he says, “I am not cleansed of my sins” – which means that he is not a person whose birth is determined by himself but by his karma as he was afraid of his sins and wanted to wipe them out. this again means that when he took birth, he was bound by Karma (known from ‘sins’).

 

Hence Rudra is a normal Jivatma and He cannot be the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta nor can he be an avatar of Narayana as his birth is determined by karma while the avatar of Narayana is determined by Himself.