Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

[Guest guest]

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RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

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now let me interpret all the 3 verses and show how u have tried to cheat the readers.

 

10.092.09 Address praise today with reverence to Rudra the powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven.

 

10.092.10 Inasmuch as Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5].

 

10.092.11 They the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us).

 

 

and then Atanu quoted from Mahopanishad to say that Shiva is undecaying etc.

 

now the Upanishad actually says,

'shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidhuttama'

 

Meaning:

Only Shiva himself is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this Brahman(ayam brahma).

 

the term 'ayam brahma' clearly shows that the various attributes like undecaying, ever present etc. are referring to Brahman. the term 'ayam'(this) shows that Shiva knows this Brahman which is undecaying, ever present etc.

 

Mahopanishad begins as 'evam Narayana aseet' - 'Only Narayana was there'. and hence the term 'ayam brahma' refers to this Brahman - Narayana. also Atanu might say that Visnu is also said to be born of Narayana in this Upanishad but it has been already proved that Visnu is an avatar of Narayana by referring to Purusha Sukta and Mudgalopanishad by Saranathan in 'Narayana is the Supreme'. I do not want to repeat it once again.

 

going by this it can be found that Shiva is only a Brahman knower and that shiva is not Brahman.

 

so when Devi says that She makes those whom She love as Ugra(Rudra), Brahmadeva, a r.si or a brahmin sage - it is clear that She shows an order of priority based on the Brahman knowledge attainable by each being.

 

Rudra being the best of the Brahman knowers comes first and Devi makes that person as Rudra whom she likes very much.

 

second in the order comes Brahmadeva for he will be the next best knower to Shiva. then comes a r.si and then a brahmin sage.

 

thus the priority is shown in a descending order of Brahman knowledge attainable by each category.

 

Atanu quotes Upanishads which are not Pramana Upanishads to prove his point. but quoting them are of no use. I can also quote from Sri Hayavadhana Upanishad, Lakshmi Nrsimha Upanishad, Lakshmi Narayana Upanishad, Sri Visnu Upanishad, Rudra Geethopanishad etc. to prove that Rudra is inferior to Visnu.

so don't quote those upanishads which have not been taken as a pramana. I have not quoted from a single such Upanishad.

 

finally, the last two Sutras of Kasakrutsna's Daiva Mimamsa says.

 

1. sa Visnu aaha hi

 

2. tad brahmedyachakshate tad brahmedyachakshate

 

Meaning:

 

1. He is Visnu.

 

2. He(Visnu) is called Brahman ; He(Visnu) is called Brahman.

 

with this every argument of Atanu is put to rest. Daiva Mimamsa is a prominent Mimamsa work which has been quoted by many prominent persons from ancient times.

 

Let Atanu change his ways atleast now.

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

My dear Guest,

 

These articles you have written are simply superb. Please keep writing them. They are like nectar to a Dasa of Sri Krishna Paramatma. Thank you very much and may Lord Krishna bless you!

[Guest guest]

Vaishnavas (like the experts in user-manual) are loosers at the plane of action. Vaishnavas thrive on helpless posture & bakthy as an approach to god to make material gains & make logic out of it for more to follow. Vaishnavas put to shame BG, as BG is full of dynamism, action, doubtlessness, and doership-free.

 

Only advaitins know the true interpretation of BG and the admiration of krishna, no matter the continued foolish allegation by vaishnavas that advaitins regard krishna as inferior. If an advaitin ends proving a point in response to vaishnavas materialistic logic & allegations, he siezes to be an advaitin as he straying from his path to entangle himself with people & manipulating their beliefs with reasoning.

 

Without any effort of indifference, I can clearly see that vaishnavas are among the most INsincere devotees of krishna, vishnu & all the avatars. Ofcourse this requires cutting the eye-wash of the show of rituals and the attire. While I can clearly see that Krishna, vishnu and the avatars are not offended, by either vaishnavas or advaitins as they are free from worldly entaglements of people trapped in materialistic/egoistic thinking.

 

With even a trace of entanglement, there siezes to be sat-chit-ananda. All the litter of stories from all the ancient texts as quoted by vaishnavas is full of examples of entanglements, and there is nothing to see who is winner or looser.

[Guest guest]

now come back to the psychiatrist

[Guest guest]

the 17th mantra of Purusha Sukta is clear. Sakra(INdra) meditated on ParamaPurusha. Data(Brahmadeva) meditated upon the Parama Purusha and so also the devas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah). Rudra is the deva of the Isana(North east) direction and so he too is referred as worshipping(meditating upon) Parama Purusha.

 

now Rudra too meditates upon ParamaPurusha and it means that Parama Purusha is different from Rudra.

 

also, Verse 3-13-02 of Taittiriya Aranyaka mentions the Pursusa in Purusa Sukta explicitly as Lakshmi pati.

 

so the fact is clear. Visnu is Supreme.

 

also it is clear from the 17th mantra of Purusha Sukta that Indra worships Visnu who is Parama Purusha.

thus the argument of Atanu that Indra is superior to Visnu stands defeated here. the verses quoted by Atanu are capable of reinterpretation as Atanu had not followed any grammar or nyaya rules in his interpretation. but this 17th mantra is very clear that Indra meditates upon Parama Puruhsa(Visnu) and it cannot be reinterpreted in any way.

 

it is said about Purusha Sukta:

 

"Vedeshu Paurusham Suktam"

 

(ie) Purusha Sukta is the best part of Vedas and it clearly proves the Supremacy of Visnu by stating that ParamaPurusha is Lakshmipati and that Brahma,Indra and Rudra(one of the devas of eight directions) meditate upon Visnu and thus clearly establishing that Visnu is greater than all these devatas.

 

also 'Narayana' name refers only to Visnu and it is confirmed by the Panini Sutra -

'purvapadhaat samgyaayaam agah'.

 

if Rudra is considered to be Brahman then verses like

 

'Narayana Parambrahmah, tattvam Narayanah parah'

 

'evam Narayana aseet....' etc.

 

have to be interpreted to mean Rudra but it is not possible as per the above Sutra for 'Narayana' name cannot refer to anyone else but Visnu.

 

it is for this reason that VedaPurusha has explicitly used the term 'Parambrahmah' only for Narayana and not for any other name. so that no doubt arises about Supremacy. still people like Atanu do not understand.

 

 

 

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Only advaitins know the true interpretation of BG and the admiration of krishna, no matter the continued foolish allegation by vaishnavas that advaitins regard krishna as inferior

---

 

advaitins know the true interpretation of BG ? what a joke!

 

Krishna speaks about Karma Yoga and says that doing one's Karma without attachments is the best way of Yoga.

 

Advaita says that whole world is maya(false). everything is false. Inaction is an essential feature of Advaita. infact Adavitic philosophy goes against BG.

 

Vaisnavas do their duty and offer it to Narayana. hence the Vaisnavas say 'Sarvam Krishnaarpanam astu' at the end of their Sandhyavandanam as well as their work. Vaisnavite thought is pragmatic for the insistence is on Karma while Advaita insists inaction and says that one has to identify himself with Brahman and thus attain Moksha. Karma is of no use in Advaita and hence Sankaracharyas give up doing Sandhyavandanam also.

 

but Vaisnavites don't give up their Yagnupaveet(sacred thread) or their sacred duties like Sandhyavandanam when they take up Sanyasa because they believe in Karma.

 

so don't write something if u do not know about it.

 

if u donot have the capacity to understand the various points then try to understand them by hard work or just give up. the fact that u are unable to understand anything does not mean that the arguments of Vaisnavas are wrong. in fact it is ur thinking which is wrong.

 

[Guest guest]

 

A passage in the Taittariya Aranyaka starts with

'tasyendro vahmirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

 

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces) and thus conveys an incident where Indra severes the head of Rudra.

 

 

Sruti calls even Agni as indestructible. so such praises for Agni, Rudra etc. are aupachaarika and they mean that they are indestructible by humans. and nothing else for this verse clearly says that Indra severed the heads of Rudra deva.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--

rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH |

 

He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra.

 

These are by Rishi Kanva

 

He is sarvamantakAla

---

 

also I wish to make clear the meaning of this verse. Atanu cannot understand unless it is spoon feeded to him.

 

Rudra is not sarvamantakala. he makes everyone(sarvam) weep at 'anta kala'.

 

the sruti does not say Rudra is 'Sarvamantakala'.

 

so there is misinterpretation in ur post.

 

 

[Guest guest]

ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH

yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám

 

10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a brahmin sage.

 

 

 

also Atanu may arise an argument that BrahmA refers to any Brahman knower.(Some Saivites argue so)

the argument will be foolish. whenever the Vedas use the term 'BrahmA' they refer only to Brahmadeva(chaturmuka). so there is no reason to interpret the word 'BrahmA' as Brahman knower. also the best term to use for Brahman Knower will be Braahman(Brahmin - the very term means that). but the term 'sumedhaam' means any Brahmin sage and so such an argument that BrahmA does not refer to Brahmadeva will be baseless.

 

also it has been pointed out that there is a definite order in the verse based on the Brahman knowledge attainable by each being as pointed out in the earlier posts.

 

I am making these additional posts in Purvapaksha and Siddhanta form so that most probable objections from Atanu are wiped out as far as possible.

 

I may not be able to continue my postings as I have to give attention to my studies here afterwards as my college has reopened today.

 

I believe that whatever has been posted is more than enough to prove Visnu's Supremacy.

 

Let Atanu understand.

 

Dear Bindh Madhav,

 

thank you for ur compliments. My name is Ravilochanan.

Let Narayana help u in ur bid to prove the smartas and shaivas wrong.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Krishna speaks about Karma Yoga and says that doing one's Karma without attachments is the best way of Yoga."

 

Vaishnavites believe karma yoga and the Karma without doership as a nature of athiests. Krishna speaks of bakthy as an alternative path for people who will take longer to realize bramhan.

 

Vasishnavas insult BG by ignoring or paying scant attention to krishna's message prior to that acknowledgement that bramhan realization is difficult. One can see, that had krishna not acknowledged that bramhan realization is difficult, and had he not spoken of bakthy, vaishnavas would not have given much to Krishna.

 

Vaishnavas are a set of impatient, materialistic, opportunitic people representing the class of people who cannot wait to realize & experience bramhan.

 

Such groups can very well survive with or without krishna, as the name of supreme god. If not for krishna, you can claim all sorts of stories that some other god's name is the supreme. There is no action at all.

 

Even political partieis have to make their identity with a portfolio & initiatives (action-oriented). Vaishnavas are not capable of any action-oriented agenda, so just resort to their identity on the basis of the supreme lord's name, be it narayana, krishna, vishnu, or ram or whatver.

 

What's does a vaishnavite want after all the preaching with a advaitin, hypothetically if the advaitin were to agree on the garbage of stories. It's a shallow actionless egoistic ask from the vaishnavitie such as "then you consider ..(narayana/krishna/vishnu)... as the supreme god".

 

The vaishnavites want nothing and feel insecure to keep shut, instead want to make noise and the show.

[Guest guest]

empty vessels make more noice...the insecured is restless....the immature acts as if matured.....

the attentionless shouts for attention..........

i only see more of the vaishnaviets posting "vishnu is supreme" threads

[Guest guest]

****** Atanu cannot understand unless it is spoon feeded to him.*********

 

It should be spoon fed. There is no feeded.

 

 

Contemplate. I know that there are both the translations. One who is at the end of everyone is also sarvamantakala.

 

The mahakala name is just not ornament, you know?

 

 

Actually, Bhaja Govindam was written for you, who try to use grammar and pandit ship to obfuscate, but have not much insight.

 

[BinduMadhav]

Atanu Bhaiyya,

 

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****** Atanu cannot understand unless it is spoon feeded to him.*********

 

It should be spoon fed. There is no feeded.

-

 

Obviously you are angry that your arguments are all defeated, right? Please don't be. It is not anyone's fault if Lord Krishna ParamAtma is the Supreme Lord and Siva is His worshipper. And don't take a simple typo by our friend (feeded instead of feed) and take it out on him. There is much truth in what he says. And as I have said before, I and many other Vaishnavs acknowledge you as a well read scholar.

 

Shivam BabhUva Te Krodhah!

 

[Guest guest]

I read that you PERCEIVE that Rudra is Ghora roopa and vishnu is the pleasing not as a duty but as a nature.

 

Advaiths and BG understand surrender as one which includes surrendering of ones own perception as well.

 

With perception so much on top of mind of vaishnavas, an act of surrender by self or others is seen only at a perception level and not experienced. Similarly whether you respect krishna as the supreme or advaiths consider krishna as inferior is all at the level of perception, as there is no unchanging truth in it.

 

As children, we are fed with perceptions regular conditioning and using religious comic books. Further to an advaithic realization, we try to shed our perceptions as they are ever changing.

 

The vaishnavas embrace of stories and stories is to feed to their own perceptions of supreme and the rest. This is only going to make surrender that much more difficult (but psuedo) & realization so much more further away.

 

See when the tippu's men came to town the vaishnavite women looked down upon their own men and perceived the tippu's men as there to stay and rule the world. Influence of vaishnavism is surely negative upon any community. There is no stopping the goose chase of perception be it from faith to faith or whatver.

[Guest guest]

Bindu why do regard yourself as a Vaishnav, you simply havnt even read the Githa, you dont even follow according to what Krishna stated. You make fun of others, you redicule others, you make bogus claims and yet you regard yourself as a Vaishnav. A person who truly follows the path of Krishna has the personality to accept others, respect others, praise others. According to your posts everywhere you never showed your interest in Krishna, but firmly your interest were to cause pain and emotions to followers of Shiva. You have made numersous posts rediculing shiva and the proofs are there so dont try to false argue. Now do you believe that you are a Vaishnav or devotee of Vishnu, in one post you have made fun of Shivites and stated that you will be enjoying your afterlife in Vaikunta. Let me tell you, only the most pious and extraordinary souls that have done extraordinary sacrifice to help others reach Vaikunta, I dont think your soul is anywehere close to reachig Vaikunta in a million light years. You waste you time arguing about weather Vishnu is supreme or Shiva is, but you never showed your devotion to Vishnu and trying to claim Vishnu is supreme is not a devotion, There is no point in people like you arguing or dissing others to who is superior. Since for God (Vishnu, Shiva) everything is static or stateless, nothing changes in their Domain (wheather Bindu is spending half her life arguing about who is Supreme). The more you are trying to hurt the Shaivites the more you are moving away from Vishnu. Because everyone is Human, and weather that person is a Shaivite, Vaishnava, Christian, Muslim, or any others if you hurt their feelings thats not what Vishnu supports.

 

Maybe someday you may get a little sense in that peanut brain of yours, stop wasting your time arguing and condecending others and write something useful like Why we celebrate Krishna Jainthi or When is the next Vaikunta Ekadasi etc..

[Guest guest]

***********

Atanu Bhaiyya,

 

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****** Atanu cannot understand unless it is spoon feeded to him.*********

 

It should be spoon fed. There is no feeded.

-

 

Obviously you are angry that your arguments are all defeated, right? Please don't be. It is not anyone's fault if Lord Krishna ParamAtma is the Supreme Lord and Siva is His worshipper. And don't take a simple typo by our friend (feeded instead of feed) and take it out on him. There is much truth in what he says. And as I have said before, I and many other Vaishnavs acknowledge you as a well read scholar.

 

**********

 

Oh, such a big rejoinder on being reminded that it should fed? And that too pulling in Shiva and Krishna? Well.

 

Be happy Bindu.

[Guest guest]

************

 

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

 

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

 

 

'Agriyaya' does not mean 'before all things'. It means just 'first'. why do u write all nonsense?

as usual u will asy grammar is immaterial. probably it is the way of Shaivites/hypocrite Smartas to translate sanskrit verses without following the rules of grammar. any language can be understood only by knowing the grammar and u know not even an akshara of Sanskrit Grammar. pity on the Vedas! they are suffering at the hands of this hypocrite named Atanu.

 

************

 

 

You people are expert in using uncivil language like hypocrite etc.

 

The verse is:

 

 

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

 

 

If agriyaya was first born (as you say, then there was no need for prathamay cha.

 

 

Keep on shouting. And be happy.

 

 

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha.

 

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

 

 

This is correct. Agriyaya and prathamaya both.

 

 

And then:

 

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

 

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all

 

[Guest guest]

*********

 

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RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

-------

 

now let me interpret all the 3 verses and show how u have tried to cheat the readers.

 

10.092.09 Address praise today with reverence to Rudra the powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven.

 

10.092.10 Inasmuch as Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5].

 

10.092.11 They the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us).

 

*************

 

 

You have conveniently misplaced self resplendent in the first verse. And you have conveniently removed 'for these songs' in the third verse.

 

If it was not so, then there is no point of using 'in as much as' in the second verse

 

 

Next time around, remove 'inas much as also'.

 

in every post your translations are differing.

 

 

 

 

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

 

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

 

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

 

 

 

 

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

-------------------------------

*******

YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

 

YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

-------------------------------

 

these verses do not indicate Supremacy of Rudra in anyway.

*************

 

He is soul of all He is soul of Devas and He is soul of creatures. He is agriyaya and prathamaya. This proves everything.

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

 

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

 

 

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

 

g Thou art the spirit of creatures; like them may my spirit be.

 

[Guest guest]

************

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

 

What else is there to say?

--

 

what makes u think that the verse is meant for Rudra Deva. attained name will not give glory of the true owner of the name to the person.

 

************

 

The verse simply says: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

 

 

No amount of bending will make it as per your wish.

 

Om Namah Sivayya

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

 

 

Vishnave does not mean Namoh Vishnu. It simply means Salutations to Rudra who is Vishnu.

 

 

Dont show your preening false pride. It will be broken again and again. Do not mis translate NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE. No one else is fooled.

 

 

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

 

 

And do not say this is not for Rudra. Rudra is Nararyana.

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

 

(Thou I art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

 

 

And Rudra is Visnu when taken down

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; --- Rudra when offered.

 

 

 

Om Namoh Sivayya

[Guest guest]

************

'tasyendro vahmirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

 

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, his 3 heads broke into pieces) and thus conveys an incident where Indra severes the head of Rudra.

******************

 

Cheaters and liars. To provide ammunition to delusions these so-called bhaktas go to any extent.

 

YV

v. 1. 2.

------- the steed has a thunderbolt; 'hastening come hither, trampling the enemy', he says; verily he tramples with the thunderbolt on the evil foe; 'from the lordship of Rudra', he says; cattle are connected with Rudra; verily having begged from Rudra [3] cattle he acts for his own interest. '

 

 

Indra has power since he begged the pasus from Rudra.

 

 

 

And with your shameless interpretations the following verse becomes false:

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

 

 

And Vishnu lauds Indra

 

 

Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

 

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

 

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

 

 

Visnu extols and lauds majesty of Indra, whose majesty is a boon from Rudra.

 

----- verily having begged from Rudra [3] cattle he acts for his own interest. '----------

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

 

 

 

Adityas flee and take refuge in creatures.

 

 

***************

Rg Veda 7:40:5

asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH

vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat

 

 

Meaning:

I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these devatas.

On account of knowing this , Rudra Deva gained his Rudra-Strength. The Ashvini brothres have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food.

 

***********

 

 

Tortuos explanations have been given again and again but to no avail. Reconcile with the following:

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. (Shiva and Shakti)

g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

 

 

and also to

 

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

a -------

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

 

and also to:

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Rudra when offered.

 

 

*********

now whatever the shaivites may say - let Rudra be praised in many ways, still he is lower than Visnu. the fact is established.

**********

 

You have only petty lower and higher in your mind. You do not see one Lord.

 

 

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

 

 

Rig Veda 10.191.3

 

sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

 

 

SVETASVATAROPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE KRISHNA-YAJUR-VEDA

3.2

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

 

3.3

His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

 

 

And these ignorant people say that Rudra is born of Brahma's semen.

 

This foolish guy is not spiritual. Do you think that you create your own semen? Semen and Milk, these two are the inexauhstible creations of God.

 

 

He has not reconciled with this shruti wherein it says Rudra gave birth to Hirayanagarbha. He simply has no time to reconcile his blindness to these.

 

Svet Up.

 

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

 

 

And this guy has no idea of the following:

 

 

Svet. Up.16

 

He indeed, the Lord, who pervades all regions, was the first to be born and it is He who dwells in the womb of the universe. It is He, again, who is born as a child and He will be born in the future, He stands behind all persons and His face is everywhere.

 

 

 

Who was before all is only the first born and is child who will be born.

 

 

Namo Agriyaya Namoh Prathamaya

 

 

MAHA NARAYANA UPANISHAD

 

 

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -----

 

II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme --------

 

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

 

 

XIV-1: Verily Aditya is He; ------

 

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all]

 

– ------

------------------

 

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

 

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

 

 

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

 

 

 

Nothing is more clear than this

 

[Guest guest]

 

*******

Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA

 

Meaning:

Agni is the lowest and Visnu is the Supreme among the Devas. In between them lie the other devas.

 

the sruti(vedas) clearly point out hierarchy among the devatas in terms of Supremacy and it says that Visnu is the Supreme of them all. Also Vedas themselves call Rudra as DEVA and so Rudra is also mentioned here and he too occupies a position in between Agni and Visnu.

**********

 

Avamo does not mean the lowest. Avamo means the first. And don't assume that Rudra is mentioned here.

 

 

Nilgriva is addressed as Bhagwan and not as Deva.

 

[Guest guest]

*******

Purusha Sukta's 17th mantra says "Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha, Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah). ONLY BY KNOWING HIM CAN ONE ATTAIN MOKSHA AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY/KNOWLEDGE."

Indra meditated upon Purusha who is Visnu and so also Brahma Deva. ALso Shiva is the deity of Isana direction and hence he too meditated on Visnu. Sayana, an advaitin, too has accepted that the devatas of the eight directions meditate upon the Purusha. This also proves that ParamaPurusha is different from Shiva.

 

Whwn Rudra worships ParamaPurusha the argument that Rudra is Parama Purusha stands completely defeated.

 

*********

 

 

The full passage is packed with lies and assumptions.

 

Initially this guy says:Purusha Sukta's 17th mantra says "Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha, Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions.

 

 

Then he concludes:

 

Indra meditated upon Purusha who is Visnu and so also Brahma Deva. ALso Shiva is the deity of Isana direction and hence he too meditated on Visnu.

 

 

This shameless person who once got God killed by his own consort VAK, adds Vishnu whereever necessaryy and Shiva whereever necessary.

 

And his point is proven. Since Shiva is Lord of Ishana, so He must have worshipped Purusha, (who is vishnu as per this fellow).

 

 

Now let us see what Vedas say:

 

v. 4. 3.

The fire is Rudra; he is born then when he is completely piled up; ---

 

it became the Arka (plant); that is why the Arka has its name.

 

He (worshipper) offers standing facing north; this is the quarter of Rudra; verily he propitiates him in his own quarter. He offers on the last brick; verily at the end he propitiates Rudra. He offers dividing it into three; these worlds are three; verily he makes these worlds of even strength; at this height he offers [3], then at this, then at this; these worlds are three; verily he appeases him for these worlds. Three further libations he offers; they make up six, the seasons are six; verily with the seasons he appeases him.

 

If he were to offer while wandering round, he would make Rudra come within (the sacrifice). Or rather they say, 'In what quarter is Rudra or in what?' He should offer them while wandering round; verily he appeases him completely [4].

 

 

Note: So, What quarter is Rudra in or in what? He is Cipivista -- everywhere.

 

 

More,

 

 

v. 5. 7.

-------

The bow of thine, O Rudra, in the east [2], may the wind blow after it for thee, to thee, O Rudra, with the year I pay homage.

The bow of thine, O Rudra, on the south, may the wind blow after it for thee, to thee, O Rudra, with the full year I pay homage.

The bow of thine, O Rudra, on the west, may the wind blow after it for thee, to thee, O Rudra, with the Ida year I pay homage.

The bow of thine, O Rudra, on the north, may the wind blow after it for thee [3], to thee, O Rudra, with the Idu year I pay homage.

The bow of thine, O Rudra, above, may the wind blow after it for thee, to thee, O Rudra, with the year I pay homage

 

 

 

To what quarter Rudra can be confined? It is his bow that is the Lord of all dishas. And He is the over Lord.

 

 

Childish interpolations do not prove a thing. And those who create posts claiming supremacy of gods are fools. Infinite ekam advaitam being has no second to compete with.

 

 

[Guest guest]

************

ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH

yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám

 

I verily of myself declare this which is RV 1approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a brahmin sage.

 

 

 

also Atanu may arise an argument that BrahmA refers to any Brahman knower.(Some Saivites argue so)

the argument will be foolish. whenever the Vedas use the term 'BrahmA' they refer only to Brahmadeva(chaturmuka). so there is no reason to interpret the word 'BrahmA' as Brahman knower. also the best term to use for Brahman Knower will be Braahman(Brahmin - the very term means that). but the term 'sumedhaam' means any Brahmin sage and so such an argument that BrahmA does not refer to Brahmadeva will be baseless.

***********

 

You are gibberish.

 

Why you give a long description of why a Brahman knower is not BrahmA, is not to you alone, Ravilochanam.

 

 

Ugra is Bhadra a form of Rudra. And your assumption --"also Atanu may arise an argument ", is meaning less. Why should I arise (i don't know the meaning of arise here) an argument.

 

This verse is on Deve (Vak), who is one. And Rudra himself is Devi and Devi herself is Rudra.

 

 

4th ANUVAKA

 

 

Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo |

 

Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses.

 

Note: Female Gods

 

Namo ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo |

 

Salutations to you Ganas and their lords.

 

Note: Ganapati

 

Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe bhyascha vo namo

 

Salutations to you who assume grotesque and monstrous forms (virupebhyo) and other diverse shapes (vishvarupe).

 

 

So, Rudra is Devi and virupebhyo and vishvarupe -- all.

 

 

More:

 

DEVI UPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE ATHARVA-VEDA

 

 

5. I uphold Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati.

 

 

8. Those gods said: Salutation to the Goddess, the great Goddess ! To Siva, the auspicious, salutation, for ever more. To blessed Prakriti, salutation ! Ever to Her we bow.

 

11. To holy Siva, to Daksha’s daughter, To Aditi and Sarasvati, To Skanda’s Mother, Vishnu’s Power, To Night of death by Brahma lauded, We render obeisance.

 

12. Know we, Great Lakshmi, Goddess of good Fortune; On all fulfilment do we meditate. May the Goddess inspire us !

 

 

20. Seed all-powerful of the Goddess’ mantra, Is sky, conjoined with ‘i’ and fire, With crescent moon adorned.

 

 

Note: Devi, Skanda’s mother, Vishnu’s power (Lakshmi) has seed in the sky conjoined with "i" (Maya) and fire, who is crescent moon adorned.

 

 

 

Devi's seed is the crescent moon adorned god, Lord Shiva. And Devi upholds Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati.

 

 

And more:

 

Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

 

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

 

 

 

You need more:

 

RV book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas

 

41 Forming the water-floods, the buffalo hath lowed, one-footed or two-footed or four-footed, she, Gauri,

Who hath become eight-footed or hath got nine feet, the thou sand-syllabled in the sublimest heaven.

 

42 From her descend in streams the seas of water; thereby the world's four regions have their being,

Thence flows the imperishable flood and thence the universe hath life.

 

 

 

Gauri has become all. She is the VAK.

 

 

There is no need to shout hoarse on supremacy.

 

Rig Veda 10.191.3

 

sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

 

 

And there is still more reason

 

SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA Book 1 TEXT 8.

 

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

 

 

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – Mahat. And She, the Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of Mahat Hareh.