Why Lord Vishnu/Krishna IS SUPREME!

[BinduMadhav]

Yam BrahmA Varundendra Rudra Marutah...

 

Yam SaivAh SamupAsatE Siva Iti...

 

It really does not matter to the Saivites how many pieces are written in Lord Vishnu's praise, with full knowledge that He alone is the Suprme Lord.

 

Shyam and others have pointed out statements from Mahopanishad, Narayanopanishad and other Vedantic sources. But to no avail. Saivites still believe in Siva's supremacy.

 

Why do I think Lord Vishnu is Superior?

 

Let's consider Vedic and Puranic stories.

 

The very first one is Sage Bhrigu's story who visits Brahma, then Siva (who is only interested in amorous plays with Goddess Parvati) and finally Lord Vishnu. Finally he declares that Lord Vishnu is the greatest (Harih Sarvottamah). Which is why the famous statement: "Yagnyo Vai Vishnuh" came about.

 

Siva is generally represented as a Tamoguna PradhAna, while Lord Vishnu is Satva Guna PradhAna and BrahmA is Rajoguna PradhAna. Siva is full of fury and anger, as evidenced in Sri Rudram. In this whole 11 AnuvAkas (TaittarIya Samhita), the constant prayer and wish is to keep Rudra propitiated, but as far away as possible. Consider the verse: SahasrAni Sahasraho RudrAh Adhi BhUmyAm, TEshAgam Sahasra YojanEva DhanvAni Tanmasi...So the idea is to respect Rudra and propitiate him but keep him at bay. Take even the beginning. The devotee in a trembling manner says: Namaste Rudra Manyava Utota IshavE namah...first bowing to Rudra, his Dhanus, his Bahus (arms) and so on. Fear rules the hearts of Rudra's worshippers.

 

There is a reason for Siva's Tamoguna. Siva or Rudra was born from the anger of BrahmA and he immediately started crying. When BrahmA tried to console him, the child demanded a name. Since the child was crying continuously, BrahmA named him Rudra (Rodati iti Rudradevah). It is an appropriate name since he makes people cry during the time of death.

 

On the other hand, Lord Vishnu's worshippers always love Him so much that they want to spend eternity with Him in His abode (Vaikunta).

 

Next, consider Siva's sexual urges. He has no control over them. When Mohini came out to help out to help the Devas against the cruel Rakshasas, Siva was enamoured. In one story, it goes that all the Devas were calling out to Siva that he should not fall for Mohini, but Siva totally ignred their advice and ran behind Mohini. /images/graemlins/grin.gifIn Srimad Bhagavatam, it is said that Siva went to Lord Vishnu and begged the Supreme Lord to show the form of Mohini. The Lord obliged and what did Siva do? Ran to hug her, right in front of Goddess Parvati, who is the epitome of good and right conduct. Mohini somehow slipped from Siva's clutches and ran away, Siva somehow controlled himself, his Retas fell and the rest is history.

 

And, of course, the Saivites have extended the story and have made Mohini a spouse for Siva, a divine son born to them and the story of Ayyappa is firmly in place in the South India.

 

Siva also does not think too much of the consequences of his actions.

 

One story is that he cut off BrahmA's head and had to beg Lord Vishnu's help in getting rid of Brahma-hatyA Dosham (the sin of killing a Brahmin). /images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

The more interesting story is that of BhasmAsura, who does Tapas to Siva and propitiates him. When the Rakshas asks Siva for the boon that when the Rakshas puts his hand on someone's head, that person should burn to ashes immediately, Siva immediately agrees and grants that boon. In an attempt to test Siva's boon, BhasmAsura tries to put his hand on Siva's head to burn him down, at which Siva runs for his life. Unable to find a satisfactory answer, he prays to Lord Vishnu, who comes in the form of Mohini and using brilliant tacticts, makes BhasmAsura burn himself.

 

Now here is the question for you all. If Siva is the supreme lord, wouldn't he know what was going to happen to him if he granted the Asura such a boon?

 

Finally we have the gory details of Lord Ganesha's story. Siva comes home and Ganesha would not let him inside his own home (because Goddess Parvati has ordered Ganesha to stand guard). So what does Siva do? He assumes RaudrAkAra and cuts off Ganesha's head. The Goddess comes out, is shocked and cries, yells and explains the story to Bhole Sankar, who hangs his head in shame and then makes it up to her by placing an elephant's head on the boy's body. Thus Siva became Lord Ganesha's father too.

 

I can go on and on. But the message is obvious. One who does not know the consequences of his own actions cannot be Paramatma.

 

Thus Siva is not Supreme Lord.

 

But, then, Siva is a Parama Vaishnav. He prays sincerely and with supreme Bhakti to Lord Narayana. No one rejoices as much as Siva when Lord Vishnu prevails over the evil. He came in the form of DakshinAmUrti to teach everyone about the greatness of Lord Vishnu.

 

Siva is also a great devotee of Lord Rama, which is why he says: "SahasranAma Tattulyam RAmanAma VarAnane" (By saying only one word called Sri Rama, one achieves the punyam of reciting the whole Vishnu Sahasra NAmam. Siva could not stand separation from Lord Vishnu and came down to the earth in the form of Sri HanumAn to help out Lord Ramachandra.

 

Naturally, Siva is a great admirer and a Bhakta of Lord Vishnu in the form of Lord Krishna Vasudeva.

 

So, let's first pray to Siva:

 

Namah SankarAyacha MayaskarAya cha namah SivAyacha SivatarAya cha Namo Parama Vaishnave Vishnu PriyAya Vishnu PrasAditE Nahah.

 

And then let's bow down to the Supreme Lord of the Universe.

 

Jagad-hitAya KrishnAya GovindAya Namo Namah!

[maadhav]

Very nice post, BinduMadhav.

 

such discussion should not be used by any one

to cause strife within the hindus.

 

all the hindus need to unite against the conversions and attacks on hinduism and the vedic culture from the non hindus.

 

[Guest guest]

In another thread you said

 

***********

I am not at all ticked, my good man. It takes someone a lot superior to you to tick me off. Let me explain it a bit. For someone to be able to tick me, that person first has to command respect from me. So far, I have not developed much respect for your opinions, although I have to agree that you seem to have access to some cool websites (assuming that all you are writing is accurate). So you do not have the power to tick me off. Show some true knowledge, maturity and honesty; perhaps I will develop respect for you, although I will continue to say that Lord Vishnu/Krishna is the Supreme Reality.

***********

 

 

I have brought your rejoinder from another thread here. Below I reproduce what I wrote before seeing your new post. And I have not read it.

 

 

Surely, a new supremacy claim changes the scenario a bit, but let my writing go to you.

 

 

 

I do not seek your respect. What is gaining respect and being happy about that if not ego gratification? All respect and awe should go to Bhagawan alone.

 

May be I seek you as a friend.

 

You surely should continue to sing and believe that Lord Krishna is supreme. I will sing with you: “My sweet Lord”, “Bhaja Govindam”, “Hare Rama Hare Krishna”; because that is true. But can you sing with me: Om Namah Sivayya? I doubt that at present you can do it.

 

 

But I have something to add, which may make you comfortable with: Om Namah Sivayya in future.

 

Can you really see Vayu Deva? You see its movement and call it Vayu. Do you really know what water is? You see its flow. You see its three states of solidity, fluidity, and vapour. Do you really see Agni Deva? You see its light and feel its heat. Although at present you may not appreciate, know that all these are just manifestations of movements in pure consciousness.

 

 

No one can see the infinite God. His movements and manifestations are all that we see. One sees the left side of the infinite being: the glory, the power, and the ruler ship, and believe that is what god is. Some see the right side: the austerity, asceticism, and renunciation and believe that is what god is. Both are correct but not fully.

 

One is immature who does not get ones eyes wet remembering that God lives owning nothing, though everything belongs to Him. If one does not realize that God takes all the pains and drinks the deadliest poison so that his children may enjoy and live, then such a one is not mature. Shiva being a servant in highest Vaisnava literature is this. Very few understand.

 

There is another side also. Vishnu seduced wife of Sankhachuda, who was invincible and was fighting Sambhu-Parvati, so that Sankhachuda could be subdued. In the process Vishnu incurred karma and had to become a stone. If one’s eyes do not wet with this, then such a one is an Asura.

 

 

Some see the padam – the effect end. Some see the thoughts that move the Padam and some further see the consciousness that is the root of the thought. Further God is the support of the pure consciousness OM.

 

 

 

 

 

And finally, there is a cycle. If Rudra is born to Brahma, He was pre-existing as a seed. Don’t ever think that you are the father (creator) of your child. The child was there, it just took a new dress through you. God is infinite because he is a cyclic. He has no end. One effect-manifestation gives rise to the other. Chinese depict this by Yin-Yang joined in a 69 position; Yin giving way to Yang and Yang giving way to Yin. Together, Yin-Yang constitutes the Tao – Brahman. God remains as it is, hidden beneath his own powers.

 

 

 

 

Know the whole as God. The way human mind works, it makes Christ a different god, Krishna another and Allah another. This is not true.

 

 

Be a friend, if you so wish.

 

 

And a little diversion. You mentioned about the cool sites I had access to. True, my cool web is Shiva. The Sivakara – the cool and sweet milk ocean. Radhe is there and Vishnu is there.

 

He serves everyone but we think that we are serving him.

 

 

Vaturva gehi va yatir api jati va taditaro

Naro va yah kascid bhavatu bhava kim tena bhavati

 

Yadiyam hrt-padmam yadi bhavad-adhinam pasupate

Tadiyas tvam sambho bhavasi bhava-bharam ca vahasi

 

 

O Lord! What does it avail a man to be a student, a householder, an anchorite, or one outside of four orders? O Master of all beings! Bestower of all good! He whose heart-lotus comes in Thy possession – to him Thou become his own, and Thyself bear his worldly burdens.

 

 

 

 

 

[thiruvengadam]

it is indeed maya which makes man to stick to his preference and claim its superiority...the ego in man wont let him appreciate the good in others lest he shall become the second...

 

what if Vishnu is greater or Shiva is greater...? Vaishnavites claim that all those who pray to other Gods will go to that God's sphere...and from there their journey will be directed to Vishu with the help of that sphere's God...so be it...why fight? let us pray to the God whom we rejoice...then it becomes that God's duty to lead to the ultimate (if there is a difference)....

 

for one thing that no one holds a monopoly to God....the wise will know it but the fools will argue over it...

 

if the argument brings us janana then let that argument be appreciated...but if the argument is to add fuel to the burning ego of man to claim superiority for those he holds dear most, then let that argument be dropped for it is an argument for the sake of argument and not for the sake af janana...

 

few may claim that this argument is to enlighten others and bring others to the right path....but if this enlightenment is to be brought by killing what u hold dear, then i disown such an enlightenment...after all what do they mean by becoming enlightened? no one thought Budda to be enlightened...He got enlightened under the bogi tree...He disowned the Vedas yet was enlightened...what does this imply? the path to the absolute truth is not singularistic....few claim budda to be an avatar of Vishnu but let them prove it....in which veda where the avatars of Vishnu are spoken does Budda comes in...? Budda is only claimed to be an avatar but never proved....so is Shankara claimed to be an avatar of Shiva but again it is only been claimed....

 

those who 'claim' will get hurt and furiated if their claim is not accepted...its human nature but what validity is that claim of when it only remains a claim....amny even regard Jesus to be an avatar of Vishnu....

 

Budda (the claimed avatar of Vishnu) was born to mislead others? i have heard that God comes to earth only to lead others....how can He come to mislead others? has God taken a part time job of misleading?

 

 

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Pranam Madhav

 

Re

(Very nice post, BinduMadhav.)

 

 

Tell me what is so nice about the post, it serves nothing. How is Lord Krishna please with his devotees who thinks his supamacy is depanded on degrading lord Shiva.such stories are useless if the meaning behind them is not understood. When a father runs away from a child or submits to him would that mean the father is helpless ? Lord Shiva whom no one can defeat so says the vedas, we must read the story in that light then it becomes amusing or else we just make fool of our self.

 

Jai Shree Krishna Ranchodrai Ki jay

 

[Guest guest]

BinduMadhav you have truly proved your worthiness to your GURU. No guru teaches his pupil to put down others and gain satisfaction through writing nonsense. I bet you are not even a Vaishnav since true Vaishnavs never say anythihng condecending to others. But you have not only put down others but you also put down Parama Shiva, for this you and especially your dumbfounded guru will pay. Even Lord Vishnu dispices you, how do you look at yourself in the mirror.

 

If you are true Vaishnav you will write only about Vishnu and his greatness. But thats not what you are doing here.

 

You will dwell in the darkness for eternal, since you have been given so many chances yet you are still ignorant. Do you think Lord Vishnu even accepts you as a Vaishnav ? Are you truly respecting Githa, why dont you read everything you have written then you will know if you are following according to Githa. If you dont even respect what it says in Githa why do you consider youself a devotee of Krisna ?

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

My first and immediate reaction to Bindu's post is it was good and i read the following posts who were pretty upset with Bindu. Iam not aware of Bindu's past posts but will write solely on on this "thread"

 

I think we all should learn

1. To read the post properly and reply.

 

Bindu started of his post by saying I quote

 

"Why do I think Lord Vishnu is Superior?"

 

so, the stress is on the 'I' which means it is his/her personal opinion and he/she has argued his/her personal opinion using scriptures.

 

In other words, there is no statement saying all Vaishnavas should behave like this or that and all Shaivites should behave like this or that. So, this post is a personal expression of Vaishnavism and Shaivism and i think we have the freedom to express ones own beliefs. That is ok.

 

So there is no generalisation that all Vaishnavas are like this. However, the posts that were hard on Bindu assumed Bindu was talking for all Vaishnavas and that all Vaishnavas behave like this. I did not get that generalisation from the post.

 

Bindu had given aruments based on scriptures and what he thought was correct. So, if others think he is wrong, the decent thing to do is to counter argue based on the same scripture and not get emotional and talk outside the subject matter. This is unfortunate. If we cannot control our anger, i think we should not even post anything.

 

One of the divine qualities is to show love and compassion even to an enemy and iam sure no one has enemies. So why should we show anger just becuase one person is expressing his or her own opinions.

 

In other words, the posts that showed anger are immature.

 

Iam not supporting or deroagting anybody but i think in a debate both parties should maintain equanamity and argue based on scriptures and not get emotional.

 

If a person is emotional, i think the person should not post.

 

This is my opinion.

 

anand

 

[Guest guest]

Here is my view on your advice to Shankar.

 

I agree with most of what u've written to Bindu.

 

I don't agree with the following:

 

"You will dwell in the darkness for eternal, since you have been given so many chances yet you are still ignorant."

 

I don't think devotion is a game of do now and make gains later or losses later. It may be re-worded as "you are (already) dwelling in darkness".

 

When Bindu genuinely needs help, he'll shut up and tread a path to spirituality.

 

For now, let's forget trying to keep him shut. He must be having a ball of time assuming that Shiva was over-anxious to maintain seperation from Vishnu, or any such story on vishnu with his dear devotee. Looks like bindu is now so enlightened that he can see a deepest bakthy in anyones tantrum and restlessness. He's indeed having a ball. Good for him. The kid is a bit too noisy, that's all.

[Guest guest]

All your references strengthen Shiva. Someone said correctly that you are a true Shiva devotee (but you do not know it).

 

It is so since:

 

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

 

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

 

What else is there to say?

 

Also:

 

Bhagavatam

 

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

 

24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since your Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

Since Lord Shiva alone is Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesvara, so all your citations add to Lord Shiva’s glory.

 

 

Brahma Samhita

 

Book 1 TEXT 8

 

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

 

 

Sanatanah Bhagwan cannot become manifest at some point of time. He is eternal. Moreover, Sakti -- the Goddess, the controller is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hareh. And Sakti is under the control of sanatanah eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of Mahat Hareh.

 

 

Unite and do not divide. God is ONE.

And I agree that Visnu is the supreme ordainer since Shiva handles his cognition apparatus

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Mr. Guest, You quoted:

 

"In other words, there is no statement saying all Vaishnavas should behave like this or that and all Shaivites should behave like this or that. So, this post is a personal expression of Vaishnavism and Shaivism and i think we have the freedom to express ones own beliefs. That is ok."

 

It doesnt matter weather you are Vaishnavas or Shaivites, but one should have respect for others. There a lot of teachings in the Githa to obtain the path of righteousness, But i dont see any of that in Bindu. People have a right to express ones belief, But being a Hindu and writing like that is Karma.

 

I may agree with you that i got a little upset and then realized thats the sole purpose of Bindu, basically he doesnt care weather Shiva or Vishnu is supreme, he just wants to temper with others feelings.

 

It doesnt matter to me weather Shiva or Vishnu is supreme, but what i dont like is when one tries to show the supremecy of a God by putting down another.

 

 

"Bindu had given aruments based on scriptures and what he thought was correct"

 

Bindus arguments are basically "i heard from somewhere". Bindu doesnt even know there exists scriptures, most the claims he made are purely made up. He never showed reference or quoted the acutal script.

 

[Guest guest]

##########In another thread you said

 

***********

I am not at all ticked, my good man. It takes someone a lot superior to you to tick me off. Let me explain it a bit. For someone to be able to tick me, that person first has to command respect from me. So far, I have not developed much respect for your opinions, although I have to agree that you seem to have access to some cool websites (assuming that all you are writing is accurate). So you do not have the power to tick me off. Show some true knowledge, maturity and honesty; perhaps I will develop respect for you, although I will continue to say that Lord Vishnu/Krishna is the Supreme Reality.

***********

#############

There is no reason why someone needs to tick you. We are not in this forum to learn about your bloated ego. We are here to learn about hinduism.

 

If at all you have any knowledge at all, you will not have selective amnesia towards those portions of vedas that say shiva as supreme.

 

When you say that this dude has access to cool websites, you admit that this dude is making some effort atleast to argue, instead of repeating the same stuff again and again crammed into your pickled brain.

[thiruvengadam]

dear Mr.Guest

 

the quote u have quoted is actually not said by Om Nama Shivaya...indeed it was said by someone called Bindhu Madhav....

 

Mr.Om Nama Shivaya had only quoted Bindhu Madhav's words as u have tried to quote....

 

pls read the post carefully and in future avoid such blunder mistakes.....

[Guest guest]

I copied the comment and pressed reply....and it has gont to the wrong person....

 

My intention was to chastise and chide this bindhumadhav for exhibiting too much pride in being ignorant.

[BinduMadhav]

Someone called 'Guest' wrote:

 

{We are not in this forum to learn about your bloated ego. We are here to learn about hinduism.}

 

My dear 'Guest',

 

That is correct. This is a forum for Hinduism and not about someone's bloated ego. But Hinduism also includes respectful debates based on scriptures, not abuses.

 

In the thread named "Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu" (http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat/cat/hinduism/79339/0/collapsed/5/o/all ), Atanuji wrote in one single note:

________

{Others have already recognized you as the hypocrite. Read the thread}

 

{You are lower than anything.}

 

{Rest is all cooking of your putrid mind.}

 

{But shameless egoistic persons will never accept their folly in public but in their inside they bleed.}

 

{Oh yes. Lord Bindu. Lord Krishna says “You are the truth”. You have blinds? }

_______End

 

I asked Atanuji to please let me know if this is how Adi Sankara and Mandana Mishra debated in the 8th Century. No correct reply from him. Has he ever formally apologized? No. I don't need him to apologize, but then I don't need it, since he has indicated that he does not mean to abuse me either.

 

On the other hand, in another thread, Atanuji wrote in defense of his friend Rajasekar (http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=76906&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

 

_______

 

See what language real Hindus use while addressing others.

 

 

***** Dear fool, *******

 

This was used to address Rajasekar. And guests, who do not themselves use identifying names ask veracity of Rajasekhar's name.

 

Funny

______End

 

Why did Atanuji jumped to Rajasekhar's defense? Because Rajasekhar is a Saivite. This is another reason why I believe that my friend Atanubhai is a little hypocritical.

 

I have never said that I have no respect for Atanubhai as a human being. All beings, human or otherwise, will receive great respect and love from me. But the kind of respect I can offer a true scholar and a Guru is different from the kind of respect I offer an immature person who engages in abusive language and then jumps to the defense of his friends.

 

I know that Srimad Bhagavad-Gita tells us to become SthithapragnyAvantas and treat friends and foes the same. Which is why I have never lost my patience with Atanuji and others who have tried to abuse me. But unfortunately, with the little mind that I have, it will be difficult to not point out errors when such are committed.

 

As far as you are concerned, my dear 'Guest', I suggest that you indicate your identity in some way instead of hiding behind a generic name called 'Guest'.

 

Thanks to all.

 

[BinduMadhav]

Shankar wrote:

 

{You will dwell in the darkness for eternal, since you have been given so many chances yet you are still ignorant.}

 

My dear Shankar,

 

Your opinion that I will dwell in the darkness for eternity is a Christian concept. Even if I am wrong, according to Hindu scriptures and philosophy, I will get another chance. No one will spend eternity in hell or darkness just because that person might make some mistakes, knowingly or unknowingly. Just as the death is a given for the living, another life is a given for the dead, as Srimad Bhagavad-Gita says. Every punishment and every reward due to Karmaphala will last a limited time period. This is why we all seek Moksha.

 

If you want me to explain why Christians believe in eternal hell as proposed by John Calvin, Martin Luther and other Biblical scholars, I will be happy to do so.

 

Your loving friend, BinduMadhav.

[BinduMadhav]

My dear Atanu,

 

This is a nice note. Thank you for writing it.

 

{I do not seek your respect. What is gaining respect and being happy about that if not ego gratification? All respect and awe should go to Bhagawan alone. }

 

True. Or to our Acharyas.

 

{May be I seek you as a friend.}

 

Our differences and our expressions of our differences should enhance our friendship. We all should celebrate diversity. But with that, should also come patient and respectful disagreements with others' opinions.

 

{But can you sing with me: Om Namah Sivayya? I doubt that at present you can do it.}

 

I will be happy to sing it with you. But I personally prefer to chant Sri Rudram, which I have mastered. I truly believe that Siva is Parama Vaishnav and therefore I have immense respect for him. I am Siva's greatest devotee because I would like to think of myself as DasAnudAsa for Lord Krishna.

 

{One is immature who does not get ones eyes wet remembering that God lives owning nothing, though everything belongs to Him.}

 

I have to agree that this is a lovely concept by Saivites. Siva, the Lord of the world, goes to Goddess Annapurneshvari for Bhiksha. Siva is the true renunciate. But I think you are dragging Siva to our level. The Supreme Being that you would like to call Siva, gives away everything to others not because he wants to sacrifice for his children, but because he does not need anything, being God. And the Supreme Reality that you would like to call Siva is the protector, not because he is willing to take a risk by drinking all-consuming poison but because he can do it and knows it well.

 

Yes, I know the Ying-Yang theory. The Chinese are brillint in their own way. In fact, we have borrowed it in a way, since we believe that we will be born as our children's grandchildren (although these days, because of longevity, perhaps as our children's great-grandchildren).

 

Do I not know that everything or the whole is God? Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma. That is an Upanishadic VAkya. But is that how I and many other Vaishnavites would like to imagine God? No. I would like to imagine God in the form of Lord Krishna. If Siva wants me to love him, he has to come to me in the form of Lord Krishna. Since Siva is an all-powerful god, he is fully capable of doing that. But, on the other hand, how could he expect me, a finite immature being, to change my preferences? Or even why would he? And, knowing it fully well, why would he want to punish me because I don't like him in his form (as you and others have pointed out innumerable times?)

 

In another post, I asked you if you are telling me that YOUR preference is to imagine God as Siva. You never replied. We all have our personal preferences. Therein comes our diversity. If you start respecting my opinions, I will start respecting yours and our friendship will prosper. If you drop hypocrisy, it will prosper much faster. With that, we will be able to stand against the onslaught of the Muslims and the Christians, as Maadhavji so correctly points out in his note.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As advaitin's one of our strengths we all should recognize is viveka (read asta vakra geetha, or Viveka choodamani, or BG on detachment/karma samnyasa), the capability to discriminate the real from unreal, the ever-changing from changing. No body can take this strength away. We can let others take it away, however.

 

Let's watch out for this show-biz of vaishnvaites, who believe in reasoning and rationailizing from a material perspective.

 

1. They'll give special reason why they feel obliged to discuss with you, and expect you to personaly take it as an honour of yourself.

 

2. They'll control their opinions upon your thoughts and make sure that they give credit to only those which are in line with their TEXTS & also reject the other thoughts of yours without hurting you.

 

There is no fair game to accept the above point 1 and blame the vaishnavas for the point 2. If the message of advaitha is not communicated through the opportunity of indifference in Point 1, then it's an easy bet that it cannot be communicated through point 2 as well.

[thiruvengadam]

this world is really a magical place....

 

i was just wondering how one rotten apple could rotten all the rest and spoil the serenity of the atmosphere.....

 

i take caution in replying to my own post so that i dont explicitly give a hit to the direction of my post

 

the sinned is seen waking with clean hands for he is tactful but the pure get messed just for a slightest mistake.....well the reason is quite clear....a small black dot is very noticeable in a white background

 

On this height of discussion i would like to present my humble opinion about what sort of debates the great of those days indulged.....

 

they did indulge in great debates....not to prove others wrong but to prove themselves correct....for there was no ego in them and when one has no ego how can a second person be wrong and I alone be correct?

 

it is indeed the definition of kaliyuga where one takes shelter of his mistakes under the cover of another....

 

what use is it to discussed when the minds are closed,

what use is it for the music to play when they ears turn deaf,

what use is it for the flower to blossom when the eyes refuse to open,

what use is it for the meaning of the words when the words are themself jumbled,

what use is it.....?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bindu, do not take this for mistake! But what did Aswathama get as punishment from Sri Krishna ?

You said "Even if I am wrong, according to Hindu scriptures and philosophy, I will get another chance. No one will spend eternity in hell or darkness just because that person might make some mistakes, knowingly or unknowingly." - Thats not the case for Aswathama, and for you to write about Parameshwara as a soap opera way is worse than what Aswathma did. There is so much behind each event of Lord Shivas act which you described earlier. Vishnu interevienes in almost all the stories since its Lord Vishnus role to do that, Parameshwara knows whats going to happen, he doesnt need to interviene.

 

[Guest guest]

Bindu you wrote :

"The very first one is Sage Bhrigu's story who visits Brahma, then Siva (who is only interested in amorous plays with Goddess Parvati) and finally Lord Vishnu. Finally he declares that Lord Vishnu is the greatest (Harih Sarvottamah). Which is why the famous statement: "Yagnyo Vai Vishnuh" came about."

 

Can you provide any reference to the story as actually summarized by you ?

 

 

"There is a reason for Siva's Tamoguna. Siva or Rudra was born from the anger of BrahmA and he immediately started crying. When BrahmA tried to console him, the child demanded a name. Since the child was crying continuously, BrahmA named him Rudra (Rodati iti Rudradevah). It is an appropriate name since he makes people cry during the time of death."

 

Why did Shiva come and tell you that he makes people cry while dying ?

 

"On the other hand, Lord Vishnu's worshippers always love Him so much that they want to spend eternity with Him in His abode (Vaikunta)."

 

Oh i see, sp lord Vishnus worshippers always love Vishnu, But Shiva worshippers dont love Shiva i guess and they dont want to spend their eternity in Kailasha too ? So why in the first place are they Shiva worshippers Bindu ? Also dont you know that Shiva worshippers love Vishnu aswell ?

 

"Next, consider Siva's sexual urges. He has no control over them. When Mohini came out to help out to help the Devas against the cruel Rakshasas, Siva was enamoured. In one story, it goes that all the Devas were calling out to Siva that he should not fall for Mohini, but Siva totally ignred their advice and ran behind Mohini. In Srimad Bhagavatam, it is said that Siva went to Lord Vishnu and begged the Supreme Lord to show the form of Mohini. The Lord obliged and what did Siva do? Ran to hug her, right in front of Goddess Parvati, who is the epitome of good and right conduct. Mohini somehow slipped from Siva's clutches and ran away, Siva somehow controlled himself, his Retas fell and the rest is history."

 

Bindu this why i stated that your guru has to be also an ignorant and dumbfounded being like you. First of all only humans have sexual urges, why are you writing about Shiva as he is a mere human being and you also referenced Vishnu as a mere human being here "Mohini somehow slipped from Siva's clutches and ran away". Does this line shows any signs you have respect for Vishnu or either Shiva ?

 

 

"The more interesting story is that of BhasmAsura, who does Tapas to Siva and propitiates him. When the Rakshas asks Siva for the boon that when the Rakshas puts his hand on someone's head, that person should burn to ashes immediately, Siva immediately agrees and grants that boon. In an attempt to test Siva's boon, BhasmAsura tries to put his hand on Siva's head to burn him down, at which Siva runs for his life. Unable to find a satisfactory answer, he prays to Lord Vishnu, who comes in the form of Mohini and using brilliant tacticts, makes BhasmAsura burn himself."

 

Shiva doesnt let down any of his devotees weather they are evil or good, But he is so smart also, He will grant the evil their wishes but he will also make it useless. He knew that the only way to destroy BhasmAsura is by giving him his boon.

Shiva is the writer, and Vishnu narrates it.

Take a look at this example, The CEO can grant you any position in a company, But when its time to terminate a employee the Human Resource does it ? So does that mean the CEO cant terminate anyone ? Its basically not his role ?

The same applies to BhamAsura, its not Shivas role to destroy BhamAsura.

 

 

"Finally we have the gory details of Lord Ganesha's story. Siva comes home and Ganesha would not let him inside his own home (because Goddess Parvati has ordered Ganesha to stand guard). So what does Siva do? He assumes RaudrAkAra and cuts off Ganesha's head. The Goddess comes out, is shocked and cries, yells and explains the story to Bhole Sankar, who hangs his head in shame and then makes it up to her by placing an elephant's head on the boy's body. Thus Siva became Lord Ganesha's father too."

 

Again you narrate this story as this happened in a rural village in Khandahar. What is this Bindu, Shiva, Parvati, Ganesh are again some human beings living in Khandahar, Afganistan.

 

 

I guess you will get the point now, if you dont then there is no cure for you.

 

 

[thiruvengadam]

i think by saying "Shiva is the writter and Vishnu is the narrator" u actually mean Shiva is the author and Vishnu is the executor to execute what is written

 

Shiva doesnt let down any of his devotees weather they are evil or good, But he is so smart also, He will grant the evil their wishes but he will also make it useless. He knew that the only way to destroy BhasmAsura is by giving him his boon.

Shiva is the writer, and Vishnu narrates it.

Take a look at this example, The CEO can grant you any position in a company, But when its time to terminate a employee the Human Resource does it ? So does that mean the CEO cant terminate anyone ? Its basically not his role ?

The same applies to BhamAsura, its not Shivas role to destroy BhamAsura

 

were well said....every thing has its place and every thing in its place...

 

all the plays of Lord Shiva are called as Thiruvilayadal in tamil...it means the Divine play....they are not mere stories for pass time but they are morals to be cherished....they are concepts which God himself enacts for His deciples to understand....

 

the whole concept of Ganesh story to show that women has a word over her man....and that a child born should get the blessings and acknowledgement of all its relatives...if not for the beheading act Ganesh wound'nt have been the Ganesh He is now...He couldnt have become Vigna haran (remover of obstracles) He would'nt have become the first God to be respected...He would only have remained Gowri nandan and not as Vign Haran.....

 

since Ganesh was born without the presence of Shiv, the world has to acknowledge him as Shiv putar....so the play was enacted...it is as simple as Ram asking Sita to go through an Agni Pariksha though He knew that His wife was pure....one might ask that even Kanda (famously called as Murugan in Tamil) was also born from Shiva without the union with the Goddess....but Murugan was born in front of all the Gods in the presence of PArvathi (unlike Ganesh who was born in the absence of Shiv).....cos Shiv is not different from Parvathi...that is what the whole concept of Ardanarishvarar is about....

 

and who is that gentle man who calls Shiv as a pervert (one who can't control his sexual urge)? It is Shiv and Shiv only who as conquired kama...it is Him who burnt kama deva to askes....and on the plea of kama's wife kama was given the formless life till the wedding of Shiv with Parvathi....dont forget that Shiva is the jogi of all yogis...its funny to think that a yogi couldnt control his senses...the point to be noted is that the two sons of Shiv-Parvathi were not Born as normal babies from the womb of the mother by the conventional way of the parent's union...

 

there is a very famous proverb written by the great sage thiruvalluvar

"yagavaraunum naa kaaka, kaavaakal sogaper sol eluku pattu"

it means that who ever it be....have control over u tough (check what u say) for the one who fails to check what one says falls under the sin of wrong speech

 

and yes there is one more way to speak..thatz an ironical way

 

there is a difference when u say 'water pouring out' and 'water oozing out'...pouring means flowing out and oozing means leaking out.....sweetness of words is very important when u talk about ther Gods....

for the ones who understands tamil will understand the difference between the words maadu and pasu both the words refer to a cow....when one says maadu the harshness of the words is fell...there is no auspeciousness in the word maadu but when one says pasu the softness of the word is felt and one senses the auspiciousness the word.....

 

it is the difference when u address Vishnu as 'The one with the shell in His hand' and 'The shell holding fellow'....both mean the same...that Vishnu has a Shell in his hand but the tone in which the words are spoken differs....

 

<h4>one should not only know</h4><h3> what to speak</h3> but should also know</h4> <h3>how to speak....</h3>

 

its even more important to know how to speak than what to speak....

 

<font color="red">Om Nama Shivaya

 

Sarvam Shivamayam

 

Sarvam Shivathul Adakam </font color>

 

[Guest guest]

Vasudeva is is all this. Namoh namah

Aditi is all this Namoh Namah

AUM is all this. Om Namoh Namah

Omkaresvar Namoh Namoh

 

 

Thos who create supremacy posts and those who participate in such discussions (including me) are ignorant fools.

 

Ekam Advaitam Lord has no second. How will He claim I am supreme?

Omnipresent Lord is cipivista, how will He say, this is supreme and that is not?

 

Infinite Lord is not limited that He can claim I am this and this is supreme.

 

 

From lower planes jivas speculate on finite petty concepts.

 

 

Mandyuka

 

The Fourth is that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.

 

Lord is neither a being nor a non being – indescribable.

 

Omkaresvar Namoh Namoh.

 

[Guest guest]

*******

In another post, I asked you if you are telling me that YOUR preference is to imagine God as Siva.

********

 

Niyati decides the preference and path. Pathaye Pate Namoh.

 

*******

If you drop hypocrisy, it will prosper much faster. With that, we will be able to stand against the onslaught of the Muslims and the Christians, as Maadhavji so correctly points out in his note.

******

 

I picked up nothing. So cannot drop anything.

 

 

And God will decide about Muslims and Christians and Hindus too. Let me just meditate. There are enough distractions as it is.

 

All paths become one in Him. World disappears in Him.

 

 

 

Best wishes to you.

[Guest guest]

For all.

 

Bindu, Thiru, and Guest and myself

 

Bindu has recorded good stories from Puranas. But he has not taken cognizance of this from Bhagavatam

 

33. Lord Girisa, exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

 

 

Also this from Padma Purana

 

KASHIPURI, KAPARDISHWAR & GAYA

 

On being asked by Yudhishthir about the grandeur of holy places like Kashipuri, Kapardishwar & Gaya. Narad said ---

 

Just as Lord Mahadev is supreme among all the deities, in the same manner Kashipuri holds a significant status among all the places of pilgrimage. ----

 

A devotee who regularly practices meditation in the temple of Lord Kapordishwar attains Yogasiddhi within six months. ----

 

 

To see God, two eyes are not adequate. What can one see if one uses only one eye?

 

[BinduMadhav]

My dear Shankar,

 

I am not disappointed. I expected a reply very similar to what you have written.

 

{Can you provide any reference to the story as actually summarized by you ?}

 

Sure. Go to IndiaDivine website and read the story of Tirupati's Lord Venkateshvara.

 

{Why did Shiva come and tell you that he makes people cry while dying ? }

 

I did not say Siva came to tell me that. The definition of Rudra is that. There are other definitions. As a worshipper of Siva, you should know all that. But it is becoming increasingly apparent to me that you don't know much about Siva himself.

 

Yes, as a devotee of Siva, go ahead and spend your time in Kailas. If you live in Kailas and I in Vaikunta, at least you and I don't have to meet and I having fun at your expense, thus infuriating you.

 

But then, you don't sound like an Advaitin. Go live in Kailas with Siva? Don't you mean 'Merge' with Siva?

 

So Siva's worshippers love Vishnu too, eh? Vaishnavs love Siva too, as Siva is a model for us. Siva is the greatest and best Vaishnav there is. Saint Purandara Dasa sings: "Oh Rudra, give me devotion to Purandara Vittala". This is typical of Vaishnavs. We don't beg for any material things, we beg for more devotion to Lord Krishna. And the Saivites? They have a long list in Chamaka.

 

{Bindu this why i stated that your guru has to be also an ignorant and dumbfounded being like you.}

 

Be careful here. I have warned Atanu before and hopefully he learnt his lesson. You know nothing about my Acharya and without knowing anything about him, don't drag him into the conversations. Let us talk about you and me (or, if you are a little more mature, your opinions versus mine).

 

{you also referenced Vishnu as a mere human being here "Mohini somehow slipped from Siva's clutches and ran away". Does this line shows any signs you have respect for Vishnu or either Shiva ?}

 

My god man, you have not read Srimad Bhagavatha Mahapuranam, have you? Please read it well and increase your knowledge and then we can probably have a good scholarly discussion.

 

{Again you narrate this story as this happened in a rural village in Khandahar. What is this Bindu, Shiva, Parvati, Ganesh are again some human beings living in Khandahar, Afganistan.}

 

So are you saying that you don't believe any of the Puranic stories? If so, so state.

 

{I guess you will get the point now, if you dont then there is no cure for you.}

 

No, my dear Shankar, there is no cure for YOU. Because, although I pointed out what Hindu scriptures say, you keep saying "Why you deserve to dwell in darkness". At least you dropped the 'eternity' part of it, for which you deserve much credit.