Vishnu and Shiva

[BinduMadhav]

Ravilocahanan and Atanu are going round and around in circles. It should be apparent to anyone who has read the thread that I started about worship of Shiva versus worship of Vishnu, that the two positions don't have a meeting point and there is no mid-ground between Vaishnavites and Smartas.

 

Vaishnavites believe that Lord Vishnu or Krishna is the Supreme Lord, with everyone else including Goddess Lakshmi, Lord Shiva, Goddess Parvati and all others being subservient to Him.

 

The school of Shaivites belonging to Adi Shankara believe that there is only one Lord who manifests Himself in many forms; whether He is worshipped in the form of Vishnu or Shiva, it is immaterial.

 

After considerable thinking and self-analysis, I have concluded that Mr.Rajashekhar's view that Vishnu, Shiva etc are all figments of one's imagination is the most logical one. The kind of puerile arguments between Ravilochan and Atanu are somewhat demeaning to Hindus.

 

Let's analyze this a bit here.

 

The Vedas may talk about Vishnu, one of the Adityas, and Rudra, another minor god; but the Vedic Rishis had the forethought to believe and put it in writing: Ekam Sath Vipraah Bahudhaa Vadanti. The same sentiment is expressed in "Sarvadeva Namaskaarah Keshavam Pratigachhati". Oh yes, Vaishnavites may say Keshava is Vishnu; but if they do, they will be wrong. Keshava is one with luxurient hair; it could be Vishnu or it could be Shiva. Lord Shiva's hair has its own name: Kapardah, just as his bow is called Pinaka. Don't think that Shiva's hair is imagined to be less luxuriant than that of Vishnu. In truth, Vishnu is not necessarily the deity with Shankha, Chakra, Gadaa and Padma. Vishnu is one that pervades everything; it is an attribute of Brahman. Rudra is another attribute (Janaah Rodayanti iti Rudrah: He makes the relatives cry at the time of death of a dear one). Shiva is another attribute (Shivam Bhadram Kalyanam Mangalam Shubham). Shankara is another (Sham dadaati athavaa Kuruti iti Shankarah: He blesses us with the pure happiness, thus is called Shankara). I can go on but will stop here. The bottom line is that Hara, Keshava, Hari are all attributes of One True God.

 

So did the Vedic Rishis see battles between Indra and his enemies? Did they see Rudra and Vishnu with their own eyes and decided that Vishnu is Superior? That is nonsense. No one in this mortal world has seen God with the mortal eyes. Obviously Vishnu and Shiva/Rudra are both the figments of their imagination. Some like Pushpadanta, Shvetaashvatara, Gautama, Aghora loved the concept of Shiva, so they praised God in the form of Shiva; some others like Valmiki loved God in the form of Vishnu and chose Vishnu or one of his supposedly Avataaras like Rama or Krishna. This is why there can be arguments in favor of both Shiva being Supreme or Vishnu being Supreme.

 

Thirdly, and this is the most interesting but poignant argument of Mr.Rajashekharji, why would a Shiva go around with a moon on his head, a snake or two around his neck, Ganges in his hair etc? Apparently, the concept of Shiva is born, again I am pointing to Rajashekhar Sharma as the source for this argument, by looking at Mother Nature. A blue sky formed His neck, the half moon above the neck (thus his head), which is also bedecked with water in the form of clouds (Ganges) and we are in His tummy. Great imagination, but do we really have to believe that Shiva is walking on Earth in this manner? And a similar argument can be made for Vishnu.

 

Whatever Ravilochan and other Vaishnavites may say, an argument that separates Shiva and Vishnu and makes one (Vishnu) superior to the other (Shiva) is not pure Hinduism. Or Vedantism. Or logical, scientific, acceptable.

 

Whether one loves, adores and worships Brahman in the form of Shiva or Vishnu or Ganesha or a Parabrahman devoid of attributes, it really does not matter. One will derive the benefit of staunchly believing in God, which includes improvement in one's quality of life, one's longevity, one's peace of mind and one's acceptance of what one cannot change.

 

So, Gentlemen, I thank you for the great entertainment, but I will stick to my beliefs: Shiva and Vishnu are nice, beautiful concepts but let's not get carried away by trying to prove one superior to another. A group of Rishis come up with a long list of stories and two thousand years later, a couple of men with plenty of time on their hands, argue which is the true hero of the stories. Ha!

 

There is, in truth, no difference between Vishnu and Shiva, to quote Skaandopanishad.

 

Shivaaya Vishnuroopaaya Shivaroopaaya Vishnave

Shivasya Hridayam Vishnuh Vishnoscha Hridayam Shivah

Yathaa Shivamayo Vishnu Evam Vishnumayah Shivah

Yathaantaram Na Pashyaami Tathaa Me Svastiraayushi.

 

(To Shiva with Vishnu's form, To Vishnu with Shiva's form

(I bow)

Shiva's Heart is verily Vishnu, just as Vishnu's Heart is Shiva Himself

Just as Vishnu is full of Shiva, So is Shiva full of Vishnu

As I don't consider any difference between Them, may prosperity and well being be mind.)

 

And to quote my favorite verse of Kalidasa:

 

Vaagarthaaviva Sampriktou Vaagarthah Pratipattaye

Jagathah Pitarou Vande Paarvathee Parameshvarou.

 

(I bow down to Paarvati and the Supreme Lord, the world's parents, who like word meaning are unified, that I may attain right knowledge of word and sense)

 

And to quote the beautiful piece of Pushpadanta, probably the most significant among all of Hindu Theistic literature:

 

Tava Tattvam Na Jaanaami Keedrshosi Maheshvara

Yaadrshosi Mahaadeva Taadrsaaya Namo Namah

 

O Lord (Shiva), I do not know the true nature of Thy being - of what ind Thou art. Of whatever nature Thou may be, O Great Lord of the gods, to That Form, my salutations again and again.

 

I sign off, folks, thanking you all for giving me fresh insight into the concept of God. I end with my traditional remembrance of Lord Krishna, my most favorite, who lived and died a superb hero, whatever other people may say. In all likelihood, Lord Krishna was a devotee of Lord Shiva in his life, but so what? He was an extraordinary scholar, warrior, philosopher, friend, protector of humans and a great human being who showed humanness and great character that deserves our true Bhakti.

[Ganeshprasad]

Jai Ganesh

 

Pranam BinduMadhav

 

You sure have change your tune,it is a welcome change, it is a tune i like, thank you.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

this is one one of the best posts ive read in a while. you are like a mirror reflecting my own thoughts at me for contemplation of where i stand in relation.

 

it is very true that shiva and vishnu are just aspects of brahman created by rishis for worship. fighting to see which is the winner between the two is illogical and childish banter. I wish more hindus in india would see it your way, we would deifnaltey improve our people, possibly help them rise above the massive poverty and ignorance that pervails through much of rural india. Maybe even stop the corruption of the governmnet

[Guest guest]

Dear friend Bindu,

 

You have won. Congrats.

 

In defence, I will only add:

 

YV IV. 4. 9.

 

(THOU ART) PRAJAPATI WITH SOMA IN MIND; -----ÇIPIVISTA WHEN PUT IN PLACE; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ---YAMA WHEN PRESSED OUT; -------RUDRA WHEN OFFERED OBLATION; -------THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

 

 

 

There is not a bit of difference in Vishnu and Shiva. The difference is His Maya alone.

 

One who is EKO and SARVA has none beside himself to compete with and kill and shout superiority. That ONE is in Hridaya.

 

 

The poison churned has become amrt.

[Guest guest]

Tava Tattvam Na Jaanaami Keedrshosi Maheshvara

Yaadrshosi Mahaadeva Taadrsaaya Namo Namah

 

O Lord, I do not know the true nature of Thy being - . Of whatever nature Thou may be, O Great Lord of the gods, to That Form, my salutations again and again.

 

[Guest guest]

Om Namoh Naaraayana

Om Namoh Sivayya

 

Lord, let this not create further ill will. Let this be sweet to all.

 

This controversy is about name and forms of Lord, who himself is beyond the names and forms, known to the mind-senses only. It is a controversy of the mind, which is non-Self. When mind is devoid of concepts then only it is in yoga with the Self.

 

Know that when true devotees worship the form endowed Siva, they know that He truly is formless, unborn, beginingless, un-decaying ONE WITHOUT A SECOND, shaashvata shivamachyutam, who resides in the inverted lotus of hridaya (consciousness) Narayana.

 

The advaitam, Eko, sarva, param of param Lord has none beside him, so how EKO can refer to a second at all?

 

Purusha is one who was before Usha and Purusha is not Nara. But those who equate Purusha to Nara and superpose the form of Nara onto Purusha, their love for a gross form is the reason of their denigrating the vedic gods (often killing them also with deadly translations). When God is ONE, who will He Kill and compete with? And whom He will call his subordinate? It is sufficient if we know Him and not discuss superiority etc., since One God is all.

 

YV IV. 4. 9.

 

(THOU ART) PRAJAPATI WITH SOMA IN MIND; -----ÇIPIVISTA WHEN PUT IN PLACE; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ---YAMA WHEN PRESSED OUT; -------RUDRA WHEN OFFERED OBLATION; -------THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

 

That saharshaShira-saharshaAxa Narayana-Rudra-Shivaa-Purusha is one consciousness is beyond doubt to lovers of Shiva. Although HE has no linga, only as a reminder and as an aid to meditation HE MANIFESTS AS A LINGA. Let us learn about the Saharsashira saharshaxa prabhu whose abode is the inverted lotus in hridaya.

 

NRISINHA UPANISHAD describes Lord Pragnya (the third stage) as below

 

eshha sarveshvara eshha sarvaj~na eshho.antaryaameshha

yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaana.n

 

 

And the same Upanishad describes the Self (the seer) beyond AUM and beyond antaryami Lord Pragnya as below:

 

machintyamachintyamavyapadeshyamaikaatmyapratyayasaaraM

prapa~nchopashama.n shiva.n shaantamadvaita.n chaturthaM

manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neya iishvaragraasasturiiyasturiiyaH

 

 

 

This is similar to MANDUYKA UPANISHAD, which also describes the fourth – Turiya as beyond Sarvesvara Lord Pragnya:

 

 

MANDUYKA UPANISHAD

 

eshha sarveshvaraH eshha sarvaGYa eshho.antaryaamyeshha yoniH sarvasya

prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaam.h .. 6..

 

6. This is the Lord of all; this is omniscient; this is the in-dwelling controller (of all); this is the source and indeed the origin and dissolution of all beings.

 

 

naantaHpraGYaM na bahishhpraGYaM nobhayataHpraGYaM na praGYAnaghanaM

na praGYaM naapraGYam.h | adR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNaM

achintyamavyapadeshyamekaatmapratyayasaaraM prapaJNchopashamaM

shaantaM shivamadvaitaM chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa viGYeyaH .. 7..

 

7. Turiya, the Fourth, is not that which is conscious of the inner world, nor that which is conscious of the outer world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is neither simple consciousness nor is it unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, not inferable, unthinkable, and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self (in the three states), It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, Sivam, and non-dual.. This is Atman (Self), and this has to be realized.

 

amaatrashchaturtho.avyavahaaryaH prapaJNchopashamaH shivo.advaita

evamoN^kaara Atmaiva saMvishatyAtmanA.a.atmAnaM ya evaM veda .. 12..

 

12. The Fourth (Turiya) is without parts and without relationship; it is the cessation of phenomena; it is Shivo advaita. This AUM is verily Atman. He who knows this merges his self in Atman; One he who knows this.

 

Svetasvatara Upanishad

 

3.2 eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale

sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

 

vishvatashchaxuruta vishvatomukho

vishvatobaahuruta vishvataspaat.h .

saM baahubhyaa.n dhamati saMpatatrai\-

rdyaavaabhuumii janayan.h deva ekaH .. 3..

 

3.2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

 

3.3 His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

 

3.4 yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha

vishvaadhipo rudro maharshhiH .

hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n

sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 4..

 

3.4 He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

---------

 

3.11 sarvaanana shirogriivaH sarvabhuutaguhaashayaH .

sarvavyaapii sa bhagavaa.nstasmaat.h sarvagataH shivaH .. 11..

 

3.11 All faces are His faces; all heads, His heads; all necks, His necks. He dwells in the hearts of all beings. He is the all pervading omnipresent Bhagavan. Siva.

 

3.14 sahasrashiirshhaa purushhaH sahasraaxaH sahasrapaat.h .

sa bhuumi.n vishvato vR^itvaa atyatishhThaddashaaN^gulam.h .. 14..

 

3.14 The Purusha with a thousand heads, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet, compasses the earth on all sides and extends beyond it by ten fingers' breadth.

 

4.16 ghR^itaat paraM maNDamivaatisuuxma.n

GYaatvaa shiva.n sarvabhuuteshhu guuDham.h .

vishvasyaikaM pariveshhTitaara.n

GYaatvaa devaM muchyate sarvapaashaiH .. 16

 

4.16. He who knows Siva (the blessed), hidden in all beings, like the subtle film that rises from out the clarified butter, alone enveloping everything, he who knows the Param, is freed from all fetters.

 

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18..

 

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient wisdom proceeded thence.

 

tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

 

Lord is ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

 

 

MAHA NAARAYANA UPANISHAD

 

XII-12 yo devaanaaM prathamaM purastaadvishvaadhiko rudro maharshhiH .

hiraNyagarbhaM pashyata jaayamaana{\m+} sa no devaH shubhayaasmR^ityaa sa.nyunaktu .. 12..

 

yasmaatpara.n naaparamasti ki~nchit yasmaannaaNiiyo na jyaayo.asti

kashchit.h . vR^iksha iva stabdho divi tishhThatyekastenedaM puurNaM purushheNa sarvam.h .. 13..

 

 

XII-12: May Lord Rudra, the first among the Gods, who has been revealed in the Vedas, who is the Supreme Seer and who saw Hiranyagarbha being born, join us with beneficial remembrance.

 

XII-13: Other than Him there is nothing higher, nothing subtler, nothing greater, by that Purusha – the One who stands still like a tree established in heaven – all this is filled.

 

-----------

 

yo vedaadau svaraH prokto vedaante cha pratishhThitaH .

tasya prakR^itiliinasya yaH paraH sa maheshvaraH .. 17..

 

 

XII-17: He is the Supreme Lord Mahesharah, who transcends the syllable Om which is uttered at the commencement of the recital of the Vedas, which is well established in the Upanishads and which is dissolved in the primal cause during contemplation.

 

 

trayodasho.anuvaakaH .

 

sahasrashiirshha.n deva.n vishvaaksha.n vishvashambhuvam.h .

vishva.n naaraayaNa.n devamaksharaM paramaM prabhum.h .. 1..

 

vishvataH parama.n nitya.n vishva.n naaraayaNa{\m+} harim.h .

vishvamevedaM purushhastadvishvamupajiivati .. 2..

 

pati.n vishvasyaatmeshvara{\m+} shaashvata{\m+} shivamachyutam.h .

naaraayaNaM mahaaj~neya.n vishvaatmaanaM paraayaNam.h .. 3..

 

XIII-1-3: This universe is truly the Divine Purusha only. Therefore it subsists on Him – the self-effulgent Divine Being – who has thousand heads and thousand eyes, who is the producer of joy for the universe, who exists in the form of the universe, who is the master and the cause of humanity, whose forms are the various gods, who is imperishable, who is the all-surpassing ruler and saviour, who is superior to the world, who is endless and omniform, who is the goal of humanity, who is the destroyer of sin and ignorance, who is the protector of the universe and the ruler of individual souls, who is permanent, supremely auspicious and unchanging, who has embodied Himself in man as his support (being the indwelling Spirit), who is supremely worthy of being known by the creatures, who is embodied in the universe and who is the supreme goal.

 

 

naaraayaNaH paraM brahma tattva.n naaraayaNaH paraH .

naaraayaNaH paro jyotiraatmaa naarayaNaH paraH .. 4..

naaraayaNaH paro dhyaataa dhyaana.n naaraayaNaH paraH .

yachcha kiJNchijjagatyasmin dR^ishyate shruuyate.api vaa .

antarbahishcha tatsarva.n vyaapya naaraayaNaH sthitaH .. 5..

anantamavyaya.n kavi (SEER){\m+} samudre.anta.n vishvashambhuvam.h .

padmakoshapratiikaasha{\m+} hR^idaya.n chaapyadhomukham.h .. 6..

 

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

 

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

 

XIII-6: One should meditate upon the Supreme – the limitless, unchanging, all-knowing, cause of the happiness of the world, dwelling in the sea of one’s one heart, as the goal of all striving. The place for His meditation is the ether in the heart – the heart which is comparable to an inverted lotus bud.

 

--------

 

 

tasyaaH shikhaayaa madhye paramaatmaa vyavasthitaH .

sa brahmaa sa shivaH sa hariH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaH svaraaT.h

.. 12..

 

XIII-12: Paramatman dwells in the middle of that flame. He is the four-faced creator, Siva, Vishnu, Indra, the material and efficient cause of the Universe and the Supreme Self-luminous Pure Consciousness.

 

 

shhoDasho.anuvaakaH .

 

nidhanapataye namaH . nidhanapataantikaaya namaH .

uurdhvaaya namaH . uurdhvali~Ngaaya namaH .

hiraNyaaya namaH . hiraNyali~Ngaaya namaH .

suvarNaaya namaH . suvarNali~Ngaaya namaH .

divyaaya namaH . divyali~Ngaaya namaH .

bhavaaya namaH. bhavali~Ngaaya namaH .

sharvaaya namaH . sharvali~Ngaaya namaH .

shivaaya namaH . shivali~Ngaaya namaH .

jvalaaya namaH . jvalali~Ngaaya namaH .

aatmaaya namaH . aatmali~Ngaaya namaH .

paramaaya namaH . paramali~Ngaaya namaH .

etatsomasya suuryasya sarvali~Nga{\m+} sthaapayati paaNimantraM

pavitram.h .. 1..

 

 

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

 

 

----------

 

ekavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

iishaanaH sarvavidyaanaamiishvaraH sarvabhuutaanaaM

brahmaadhipatirbrahmaNo.adhipatirbrahmaa shivo me astu sadaashivom.h

.. 1..

 

 

XXI-1: May Lord who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Brahmaa, be auspicious to me. I am that Sada Siva denoted by OM.

 

 

 

dvaavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

namo hiraNyabaahave hiraNyavarNaaya hiraNyaruupaaya hiraNyapataye.

ambikaapataya umaapataye pashupataye namo namaH .. 1..

 

 

XXII-1: Salutations to Hiranyabahu, Hiranyavarna, Hiranyarupa, Hiranyapati, Ambikapati, Umapati, Pasupati.

 

 

trayovi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

R^ita{\m+} satyaM paraM brahma purushha.n kR^ishhNapi~Ngalam.h .

uurdhvareta.n viruupaaksha.n vishvaruupaaya vai namo namaH .. 1..

 

 

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, the Purusha, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes (Umamaheshvara). Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

 

 

NB: NAMO TO ALL RUDRA NAMES AND FORMS

 

 

chaturvi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

sarvo vai rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu . purushho vai rudraH

sanmaho namo namaH .

 

vishvaM bhuutaM bhuvana.n chitraM bahudhaa jaata.n jaayamaana.n cha

yat.h . sarvo hyeshha rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu .. 1..

 

 

pa~nchavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

kadrudraaya prachetase miiDhushhTamaaya tavyase . vochema

sha.ntama{\m+} hR^ide. sarvohyeshha rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu .. 1..

 

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures. The universe, the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations to Rudra who is such.

 

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

 

End of citation

 

 

 

Eko Lord, who has no second beside him, remains alone at the summit of the world. He is the fourth indescribable Turiya state wherein the world disappears. He is Good and the peaceful.

 

Some (including me) worship God as Siva, knowing him as Sivam – the subtlest indescribable bliss giver, Ghrita present everywhere, in whom all phenomena dissolve and who is param of param.

 

If some one insists that this Eko is not Rudro but another and this Siva is not Siva but another then so be it. I truly do not have any problem, since I know that Rudra –Vishnu etc., are names of that nameless, formless, eternal, unborn Purusha who says I in me and who is Sivam Sivam and who is EKO and cannot have another beside Him.

 

 

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

 

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; ----------

 

YV iv. 4. 9.

 

(Thou art) Prajapati with Soma in mind; -----Çipivista when put in place; ------ Visnu when being taken down; ---Yama when pressed out; -------Rudra when offered; -------the heaven when arrived at completion.

 

 

 

If one still insists that this Eko is not Rudro but another and this Siva is not Siva but another then so be it. But then let one believe in entirety that “Na dvittiya tastu”also, and desist from frequent childish claims of supremacy.

 

 

When God is ONE, who will He compete with?

 

 

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

 

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

 

 

Svet Up. 6.7

 

tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

 

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS MAHESVARA, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

Om Namoh Naaraayana

Om Namoh Sivayya

 

 

[Guest guest]

though its ages since i posted any post in this forum, i couldnt resist but appreciate Bindhu for what he has turned into....yes indeed Bindhu has won (as aptly mentioned by atanu) and yes ur tone was very pleasant (as said by Ganeshprasad)(both being my favourites in this forum....)

 

hope u guys remember me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

cheers

Thiru

[Guest guest]

just curious to know what brought this sudden change into Bindhu.....

 

Bindhu i would be delighted if u could share ur experience which stood a cause for the change in u.....

[Guest guest]

I would agree with the article except -

 

{The school of Shaivites belonging to Adi Shankara}

 

Adi Shankara was not a Shaiviate and neither was his school. His sect is a revived sect called Smarta, which he believed were the original views of the Vedas - that the gods are all manifestations of the One God - Brahman the ultimate reality.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartha_Sect

 

There were Shaivites who followed Adi Shankara's philosophy of Advaita, but they are not linked to his school, they just took up his philosophy and practiced it their own way, where they have a preferance of viewing Shiva as Brahman.

 

{Lord Krishna was a devotee of Lord Shiva in his life}

 

I'm not sure about this. I think it was Lord Rama who worshipped Shiva and Shakti. I think Lord Krishna was more like a Yoga-Vedanta philosopher as we can see with his teachings in the Gita.

 

[Guest guest]

I think Lord Krishna was more like a Yoga-Vedanta philosopher as we can see with his teachings in the Gita.

--krsna is the supreme personality of godhead... the supreme lord, so he has no supreme to worship. To show to humans the correct behaviour, he had in his father's house a murti of varaha deva (he can be seen in nandagram, vrindavan.. so he was.. ehem... vaishnava..)

 

gita is bhakti..

[Guest guest]

I agree with Ratheesh that this is one of the best posts I have read. Some of the observations made by Bindu Madhav (or Rajsekharji) are truly brilliant.

 

I have read posts of Ravilochan and Atanu. I think neither of them truly understands Theistic Philosophy or Hinduism. Atanu, specially, is so annoying with his cut-and-paste mode of communication without saying anything substantial.

[Guest guest]

*****Atanu, specially, is so annoying with his cut-and-paste mode of communication without saying anything substantial.********

 

This is a good observation. Atanu should mend his ways.

 

Thanks Guru Dasan.

[Guest guest]

"The kind of puerile arguments between Ravilochan and Atanu are somewhat demeaning to Hindus"

 

You started the puerile post. And still you are Puerile. Even now you are demeaning the Vedas.

 

 

"After considerable thinking and self-analysis, I have concluded that Mr.Rajashekhar's view that Vishnu, Shiva etc are all figments of one's imagination is the most logical one."

 

 

 

If Vishnu, Shiva are figments of imagination then what are you? Vedic gods are not revealed after considerable thoughts (your term) but with meditation and in pure thought free mind.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

******Thirdly, and this is the most interesting but poignant argument of Mr.Rajashekharji, why would a Shiva go around with a moon on his head, a snake or two around his neck, Ganges in his hair etc? --------Great imagination, but do we really have to believe that Shiva is walking on Earth in this manner? And a similar argument can be made for Vishnu.

*********

 

 

It is amusing. You only said (in that infamous post of yours)that you imagine Narayana with a gada.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

---------------------

After considerable thinking and self-analysis, I have concluded that Mr.Rajashekhar's view that Vishnu, Shiva etc are all figments of one's imagination is the most logical one. The kind of puerile arguments between Ravilochan and Atanu are somewhat demeaning to Hindus.

--------------------------

 

After reading all posts and after considerable thinking and self analysis the following seems true.

 

Bindu thinks that humans are creators of gods and not the other way around.Forms of God are not figment of imagination of humans. But god manifests in certain forms to humans.

 

Bindu madhava demeans the scriptures most and believes that he is the righteous fellow and others are all puerile.

 

[Guest guest]

----------

Atanu, specially, is so annoying with his cut-and-paste mode of communication without saying anything substantial.

----------

 

 

Irritation is your problem. Do not blame others for it.

[Guest guest]

--------

After reading all posts and after considerable thinking and self analysis the following seems true.

 

Bindu thinks that humans are creators of gods and not the other way around.Forms of God are not figment of imagination of humans. But god manifests in certain forms to humans.

 

Bindu madhava demeans the scriptures most and believes that he is the righteous fellow and others are all puerile.

------------

 

there is much bashing going on of sri bindu and his post

 

you say that he believes he is holier than thou. i believe you have him misunderstood.

 

although i cant speak for him, since i dont know him, i believe he was saying (and i agree with him_) that shiva and vishnu are man made beliefs about two aspects of brahman, the formless god.

 

god created humans and humans acknowledge god's existance (well, some of us do). In order to visualize or conceptualize god in our minds and lives, we conceptualize aspects of the sum totality Brahman and create versions of brahman which we called preserver and auspicious (vishnu and shiva) We have creatd the images of shiva and vishnu in order for us to see it in front of our faces and worship appiopriately.

 

however, we must not forget that brahman is formless and we have given brahman a form by creating images that fit our neccessities for understanding. We make shiva and vishnu look as they do. there is no real man walking around looking like that, except the men who do it purposely to look like shiva or vishnu.

 

To give the formless a form, we can only take certain aspects of it and therefore, we have vishnu and shiva and all the others. But we must not forget brahman is the only true form of god in His entirety and his qualities are sat-chit-ananda

 

So please, do not be upset because he goes against the waves. It is necessary sometimes to stir the pot so it doesnt get bogged down.

[Guest guest]

{shiva and vishnu are man made beliefs about two aspects of brahman, the formless god.}

 

OK. But what about those Hindu devotees who experience God through visions of Shiva and Vishnu. Isn't it that God really manifests in these forms to bhaktas? Or are you saying they have a really powerful imagination? There are even advaitists who have had vision of the personal God. How do you explain this?

 

[Guest guest]

lets take a look at this

 

if someone was a very devout baktha and believed deeply in shiva, they are much more likely to have a dream that involves shiva, they are more likely to have content in their dream in which shiva advises them or helps them somehow and they are much more likely to believe that they have truly been touched by or talked to by god because of their devotion.

 

Its the devotion that runs the belief. Now, this doesnt mean that these people are stupid or childish. I do believe that God is the underlying cause of everything and the conceptualization of shiva as the destructive aspect of brahman is not entirely false. That would be like saying that the fact that lions may kill us is not entirely true since it is the human who beleives that lions will kill us. This belief isbased on some aspect of truth, although lions may not be man eaters and arent always looking to kill humans, they DO have that capability. In the same way, there IS a destructive aspect of the supreme being (which we call brahman) and we call this destructive nature shiva or rudra.

 

the manifestation of this image in a dream is due to the fact that the image is already a hot topic in the minds of the bhakta. they are much more likely to activate an image of shiva while sleeping that someone who isnt a devotee or who doesnt think about shiva often. Those people would have low associations of shiva and be less likely to dream them.

 

then the question becomes, is it really a valid appearance of god visint people in their dreams? well it depends. If it truly is god visiting a devotee to help them, then it that dream will cause a substantial change in the bhakta. If it does cause a change for the good, then one can say that god has blessed them because even a flase belief in a real visint by god turned out to be a blessing, so whos to say that it really wasnt a blessing after all? whos to say thats not how god intended to help that person?

 

So in conclusion, its not that the person has a wild imagination. Its very practical. People are likely to dream things using the contents of their memory which is used during waking state. Something that gets activated in the mind alot during waking is also likely to get activated during sleep. So a shiva bakta is highly likely to dream of shiva when sleeping.

[Guest guest]

There is no bashing.

 

The manifestations are His grace to the pure still minds of pure sages. There is no imagination there. Else all shruti is imagination.

 

What is imagination is our speculation of the shruti.

 

Till one has a mind (full of thoughts and concepts), the gods are very much there as controllers in different shapes and forms -- but they are not concepts alone.

 

One must understand that concept is in one's mind but irrespective of all concepts there is eternal Brahman -- containing all manifestations, whole of vedas, all vak, and all universes within him. This is proclaimed in Vedas. And scriptures also say that there is One God who is the support of Brahman.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"if someone was a very devout baktha and believed deeply in shiva, they are much more likely to have a dream that involves shiva----"

 

One cannot have dream of Shiva automatically without His grace.

 

And what you say does not indicate that the visions of god is random. One cannot dream oneless there is a basis and especially of Shiva.

 

 

 

So, the question is how a holy form first came? Is it imagination or is it God's grace?

 

Contemplate.

[BinduMadhav]

Ratheesh wrote:

 

--------------------

god created humans and humans acknowledge god's existance (well, some of us do). In order to visualize or conceptualize god in our minds and lives, we conceptualize aspects of the sum totality Brahman and create versions of brahman which we called preserver and auspicious (vishnu and shiva) We have creatd the images of shiva and vishnu in order for us to see it in front of our faces and worship appiopriately.

 

however, we must not forget that brahman is formless and we have given brahman a form by creating images that fit our neccessities for understanding. We make shiva and vishnu look as they do. there is no real man walking around looking like that, except the men who do it purposely to look like shiva or vishnu.

--------------------------

 

I fully agree with the comments above. Good perception, Ratheesh.

 

One of the 'Vachanas' or sayings of a Veerashaiva states:

 

"According to one's Feelings

And according to one's devotion,

As one would like to see Him

Appears Lord Shiva to him

 

To devotees of Hari, He appears as Hari

To devotees of Hara, He appears as Hara"

 

Long time ago, I asked a Swamiji (Paramananda Bharati, if anyone can recognize the name) why Paraashara had to write Vishnu Puraana to create additional confusion among the Hindus. The Swamiji replied that Vishnu is one flavor of God, just as Parashiva is another and Mother Parvati is yet another. We are free to choose Saguna Brahman in the form that we particularly like. I had thought long and hard about his little lecture. Later, when I read Rajashekharji's very interesting posts, the jig-saw puzzle started falling in proper places.

 

By Its very definition, Brahman does not need us. We need Brahman. I suspect He does not care whether we imagine Him in the form of Shiva or Vishnu. We derive the pleasure and benefit by worshipping Him in the form that we give Him. Since He is the Infinitely Mature and Powerful Being, He will, I am sure, perfectly understand our little prejudices and does not mind our calling Him Shiva or Vishnu or Devi.

 

What bothered me considerably about the arguments between Ravilochan and Atanu was that they both were arguing for Vishnu and Shiva respectively; almost like little children saying 'My Daddy is Bigger than Yours'. I had plenty of fun both reading their posts and pointing out some of Atanu's faulty logic from a Vaishnavite's perspective; but at the same time, I was truly dismayed by Ravilochanan insisting that Vishnu is the Supreme Lord. I never expressed it because I was learning a lot during the whole process and I did not want to interrupt their thoughts.

 

But I learnt a lot about the mindsets of Vaishnavites from Ravilochan and about the mindsets of Shaivites from Atanu, and for that, I am truly grateful. Human nature is exquisitely interesting and the aspect related to religion is even more complex. Ravilochan and Atanu, I found out, never stepped back from where they were standing to review their own standings. If they had done that (or are willing to do that even now), their visions will expand and they will see the big picture in a whole new light.

[BinduMadhav]

Thiru wrote:

 

--------------------------

 

just curious to know what brought this sudden change into Bindhu.....

 

Bindhu i would be delighted if u could share ur experience which stood a cause for the change in u.....

--------------------------

 

My dear Thiru,

 

I have been taught by my (Vaishnavite) Acharya that Lord Vishnu is The Supreme. The stand taken by Ravilochan, myself and others is nothing unusual. But I always had doubts. Like I have said elsewhere, I read Rajashekharji's posts in considerable depth recently and began to see the big picture a little better. The seeds had been planted in my mind many moons ago. But they took root recently.

 

 

[BinduMadhav]

Atanu wrote:

 

"It is amusing. You only said (in that infamous post of yours)that you imagine Narayana with a gada."

 

I did, my dear Atanu. I like to imagine Lord Vishnu that way or Lord Krishna with a lovely flute creating lilting tunes. But I acknowledge that Sriman Narayana with his Shankha, Chakra, Gada and Padma is a lovely imagination in the fertile minds of our ancestors. Not likely our handsome Krishna, my most favorite. He was certainly a historical figure.

 

I have to congratulate both Ravilochanan and you, Atanu, for the amazing amount of scholarly knowledge you both have displayed. It is marevelous and I have loved every post. Hope both of you will keep up the good work and help the rest of us improve our knowledge as well.

[Guest guest]

"Thirdly, and this is the most interesting but poignant argument.."

 

I consider Shiva's form as the panchaboota's held together by the asupicious bramhan. Thus the soul in each living being is what is keeping the panchabootas together. This is true in all living beings, including people say in coma. Therefore one ought to discover the nature of the soul and live by it, than to live in ignorance led by the ego & its everchanging perceptions.

 

I find the Vishnu's padmanabha form universal. The mind is immersed in spirituality, the right hand is shown praying to shiva. With the mind in spirituality, the actions performed thus by true spiritual nature makes the creation, as symbolised by Bramha & the vedic wisdom in his Nabhi (such actions have zero karmic reactions). The world under the leadership of such a king vishnu is in bliss always. There is lakshmi (wealth) at the king's feet. Bhumidevi is in total harmony and admiration of such an individual to save the kingdom from any catastrophe. And all the intellects and big guys pay respects to such a king.

 

India is the kingdom expected. Or may be more pervasively, anywhere in the world where true spiritual nature rules as a king this way, it becomes a bharat desh.