Vishnu-The ultimate aim?

[bhadramoorthi]

there is a name in the Vishnu Sahasranama "MUKTHANAM PARAMA GATHI".(I think the 12th name)

the meaning of the name is somewhat like "the ultimate destination for the liberated souls".

This praise is written by Veda Vyasa.

All the puranas are also supposed to be composed by Him.

Then why several puranas proclaim various deities as supreme?

Can anyone explain why Lord Vyasa did so?

if Vishnu is the aim,what is the significance of the other puranas?

With only one deity people could avoid these fights and confusions.

[ranga]

Sir,

 

Your question is very encouraging. You have brought a very nice point.

 

If you take Vishnu, you can do all types of devotion like a dasa,friend,mother,lover etc. Vishnu is all attractive and pleasing to everyone.He is full of mercy and always stay in the mode of pure goodness.His devotees know no refuge other than Him and he accepts only veg prasadam and no animal sacrifice and all.Because he is the father of all living entities.(even plants have life but we offer him those leaves before taking it to recycle them to higher birth.Their pain of sensitivity is far more inferior when compared to five sensed goats.Perhaps its a different issue altogether)

 

Now why Vyasa glorified other deities in other puranas?

 

There are two reasons.

 

i)Vishnu devotion is something which the soul must aspire and rightly conclude given the confusing other things.It is because it is indeed it is very very tough to accept Vishnu as supreme than anybody and once accepted he becomes a Vaishhava and slowly his character is perfectionalized.

 

If vyasa directly concluded Vishnu as great, there is no greatness for the aspiration and right decision of buddhi for devotees.But now only intelligent and humble men can seggregate fact from illusion and judge the greatness among the thrimurthis.

 

For your information, one sage called Brighu once decided to find who is great and found Vishnu as perfect as he was very kind and lovable.

 

Further Vishnu gets angry very rarely and hence it has its respect.In case of Narasimha avatar he was extremely angry at the bad and evil.But for that thing happened long ago,no one sacrifices poor innocent animals as a demon symbol to Narasimha.Because we all know Vishnu is the father and unwanteldy he wont continue his anger.But incase of other deities that perfect maturity is not there and something is lagging behind them though other deites are far more powerful than us.

 

ii)The second reason is that everone is not nearby to the mode of goodness and hence different levels of lessons are there for them to gradually elevate them.

 

For those who eat meat and drink wine,if we go and tell about Vishnu they wont listen much.So vyasa glorified Kali and Kala Bhairav in some puranas so that these men will get attracted and follow some devotion,some principles and offer their meat to Kali and start follow few things of vedic religion.

 

Slowly they want to know more about Kali,go to Devi Bhagavadam find still more intellecutal things and slowly identifies Vishnu as the right source to accept the Perfect devotion.That is the plan.I have given you water mixed milk but use your buddhi to separate water and take the milk.

 

 

(The concept of Divine Mother where we attribute all the above said good things to a deity Laitha devi can be found in Lalitha Sahasranamam.But as it would have it,there are certain flaws like Bali priya,Rowdra Rupa and other terms along with mention of Left hand tantric path(Dakshinaa dakshina rupini).Hence that very resepctable book even cannot attribute all perfect things to a Divine Mother.

But to my knowledge it is only worthy among other Deity glorifications to somewhere stand against Vishnu glorification.

 

So you very rightly quoted MUKTHANAM PARAMA GATHI and Vishnu is not our enemy or so.When one starts believing him, he slowly reveals himself.

 

If possible go to Srirangam,Trichy where you will find gigantic sleeping Perumal the Ranganadha who is very very beautiful and admirable.Many impersonalists have got changed to Vishnu bhakthi path by such a beauty.

 

[Guest guest]

Ranga, It's good that you claim to believe in god.

 

You might think that you have given a very rational answer. To someone else your response could be considered as a set of beliefs and assumptions with zero rationality.

 

Try replace judgements such as 'beautiful' & 'admirable' with a feeling / expression of Wonder. Try replace judgements such as good/bad/evil etc with another word called 'different'. Judgements are always from the filthy component called body. Expressions such as wonder is from the soul,....learn from how a contented baby looks at its mother.

[ranga]

Hi,

 

Religion & experience are above rational sciences.Vishnu is not illogical but he is beyond the reach of logical arguments.Whatever I wrote lest even the great epics are mere literal words without belief and practice but they do carry His message.The soul which is receptive will take the right thing.

 

And again what is right is also based on the mode on which one operates.But that does not deny a common benchmark.

 

Perception does not affect the reality which is being perceived.A murder is punishable no matter the murderer supports that cannibalism is a part of human civilization.It is his perception.Thats all.But the reality is murder is an offense.

 

For a butcher, killing goats is perfectly right but for a sage or budhha it is a great sin and they will feel for it when they saw such an act.

 

So the individual consciousness give its judgements or conclusion based on its mode of nature inherent on it by a large collection of karma.

But a final conclusion that is really true does exist.

 

In short everything is relative -- I accept.But that does not deny an absolute non relative thing.That is perfection,God,Super power,Divine or Vishnu all.Why Vishnu? why not Einstein or you or me?

 

Consider this scenario. For an ant, even my powers will look great.It will say "O a great being living for 100 years and can protect us for all our ten days life time.But if got angried,can destroy us largely by a mere crush even. Oh he must be God". But in reality I am a simply higher powerful being than that ant and I have my own constraints and limits.

 

Like way so many powerful beings other than human race can exists in the universe but all are not God.God is the ultimate and no one is greater or equal to him.

 

So to conclude who is God,one must use his conscience and rational neutral mind and then conclude.If we say God must be impersonal then we are putting a limit on the infinite itself.

 

Hence we take Puranas and apply the neutral buddhi giving due importance to our intution also and come to a conclusion like Vishnu is God.And my conclusion must be realized and my path must be followed by so many and they must have attained the realtiy.That further ensures our path is right.

And with Vishnu devotees it happened.For Tukaram he directly infront of everybody went to Vaikunda.So many I can give.

 

If we filter like this only three prominent path comes -- Vishnu,Siva and Mother Goddess.Even among them the wise concludes Vishnu as Lord.(reason I explained earlier)

 

Basic ethics must not come in the way of the chosen deity.For eg if I choose Kali, then ahimsa gets a jerk at the start itself.We cannot argue like I dont sacrifice for Kali but accept that it is prescribed in some scriptures and some low level people do it.But for Vishnu this ethical conflict never arises.No body cuts the throat of a goat for Vishnu and no scriptures argue that.

 

That was my arguement.

 

So Religion is experience.Experience it fully to know the truth.May it be Devi worship or Shiva worship,do it very sincerely and believe fully.One day all will come to Him.Bhagavan says in Gita that those who worship the demi gods actually adores him only but in a wrong way.

 

Radhe Krishna!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

Thank you for a beautiful post.

 

Your Post is highly logical and rational.

 

i would just add one of my thoughts, however if you don't agree with me it is fine, i may not be arguing further.

 

You had stated that-

"Hence we take Puranas and apply the neutral buddhi giving due importance to our intution also and come to a conclusion like Vishnu is God"

 

Very good, many people come to conclusion "GOD IS VISHNU"

 

and by that token they say "GOD IS NOT SHIVA, NOT SHAKTI, NOT MURUGA, NOT KALI... " and so on.

 

However i strongly feel that Human beings can't by their intellect define what "GOD IS" and "GOD IS NOT".

 

The best possible way to say is like you stated "Vishnu IS GOD" what is Vishnu, actually a figurative representation of GOD as preceieved (or experienced) by some rishis. By stating that figure IS God (and IS NOT Human, IS NOT Demi God, etc.,) we are stating the factual point. So we can also say "Shiva IS GOD" , "Kali is GOD" and so on.

 

Actually one statement does not contradict other statement, since as per Hinduism Everything IS GOD. However What IS that God itself? no body can define.. we are finding people trying to define (or limit) what IS God and fighting among themselves.

 

May the Ranganathan shower his graces on you.

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

u didnt spare the opportunity to defame mother.

what is this?===========

"....The concept of Divine Mother where we attribute all the above said good things to a deity Laitha devi can be found in Lalitha Sahasranamam.But as it would have it,there are certain flaws like Bali priya,Rowdra Rupa and other terms along with mention of Left hand tantric path(Dakshinaa dakshina rupini).Hence that very resepctable book even cannot attribute all perfect things to a Divine Mother......"

========

they are not flaws.

Bali= one who has the Balam(strength).

and that balam is the sattwik balam that a devotee possess.

that sattwik sakthi prevents him from doing sins even though he is in a circumstance or surrounding where he could do it.

balipriya=one who is fond of the balis.

the name indicates that Devi is pleased with such Balis.

The tamsik worshippers only interpret the way you did.

They offer Balis(sacrifice).We can also offer vegetables as bali.

[bhadramoorthi]

".........But as it would have it,there are certain flaws like Bali priya,Rowdra Rupa and other terms along with mention of Left hand tantric path(Dakshinaa dakshina rupini)...."

 

it is not rowdra rupa. it is rudra-roopa.

The hymn praises mother in all aspects.

the name you notified goes like this

..SRISHTI_KARTRI, BRAHMA_ROOPA, GOPTRI , GOVINDA_ROOPINI, SAMHARINI,RUDRA_ROOPA ,TIRODHANAKARI, ISWARI, SADASIVA ,ANUGRAHADA...........

 

saw that?

they are the pancha brahmas.

the five manifeatations of the supreme one.

viz BRAHMA,VISHNU,RUDRA,ISHWARA,SADASIVA.

they do the five karmas of the supreme one.

viz SRISHTI,STITHI(GOPANAM),SAMHARAM, TIRODHANAM,ANUGRAHAM.

now once more read the hymn.

it describes the mother as "srishti kartri" in the roopam(form ) of Brahma ..Goptri(stithi) in the form of Govinda

"Samharini" in the form of Rudra.and so on......

[ranga]

Sir,

 

You interpret the Bali priya term to give your own explanation.But in cases like this the direct meaning does have much implication.

 

God is someone who is Supremely Lovable beyond doubt for all creatures.As you said,simply by this term,Tamasic men do an abominable sin.So a great book should never give room for speculation and mis representation.You cannot find a single name of Vishnu to misrepresent and sacrifice.And very simply why sacrifice is always involved with Shiva and Kali? Why these tamasic men get attracted to them always?Why they dont bother Vishnu?Because Vishnu never likes manly ego.They cannot really shed that out.Thats why Demons remained Shiva deovtees but never respected their own master at times.But you cannot quote a single vishnu devotee who is a demon by action.(Prahladha and Vibeeshana were exceptionally exalted high grade souls and not demons by their action)

 

Radhe Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

Looks like you are having a very superificial understanding and getting into arguments.

 

Ever heard of Jaya /Vijaya who were great devotees of Vishnu and were the guards of Vaikunta, cursed by sages for ego to take birth as Asuras.

 

Ever heard of Madhu/Kesi demons who were just not devotees but actually sprang from Vishnu himself.

 

Also another Asura killed by Indra who was a devotee of Vishnu.

 

Even story about Akroor who was a friend and devotee of Krishna suspected Krishna himself.

 

And there are so many other things.

 

Just try to understand that the One God assumes infinite forms (including a formless form) and each with different names, moods and characteristic. Every one chooses a form as per his wish and nature,(or may completely ignore all forms and become an atheist), no body has rights to criticise the forms choosen by others. In that you are actually criticising Him, have you not read Gita which states "I am Indra, I am Skanda, I am all the demi Gods" and "howsoever a devotee tries to worship one "I" stabilise their faith in that form". So why you are quarelling about the names and forms unnecessarily?

[bhadramoorthi]

"...You interpret the Bali priya term to give your own explanation.But in cases like this the direct meaning does have much implication..."

 

anyway it was not my definition as i had read it in the books.

to know what it really means,one has to consult the Vag-Devatas who composed it.

 

"..........You cannot find a single name of Vishnu to misrepresent and sacrifice.And very simply why sacrifice is always involved with Shiva and Kali? Why these tamasic men get attracted to them always?Why they dont bother Vishnu?..........."

 

and sacrifice or bali of the animals is the tamsik form of worship.

the three forms of worships are meant for the three sorts of men.

The deities are also of three sorts--sattwik,rajasik and tamasik.

As we all know Vishnu, Krishna etc are Sattwik deities.

As given in the puranas:

Rudra,with the tamsik aspect performs samharam,

Vishnu,with the sattwik aspect performs sthithi,

and Brahma with the rajasik aspect performs srishti.

these three gunas reflect in their worship also.

That is why Vishnu pujas doesnt include sacrifice while some of the Kali puja does.

 

Also, Kali,Siva can be worshipped in the other ways --sattwik/rajasik.

They treat all sorts of creatures alike--whether tamsik or rajasik or sattwik.They are the parents---hence no partiality.

 

=====================

Similar is the case with the divine mother.

She cant be confined to a particular Gunam like the other deities Vishnu,Indra etc..

She is an all-rounder.That is why Samaya as well as Dakshina Tantras are used to worship Her.

Kaula worships include sacrifices and gives instant effects.

Ask any of the tantriks why they dont perform sattwik tantras--the answer is simple--it is very hard and slow to bear fruits.

 

[bhadramoorthi]

"....You cannot find a single name of Vishnu to misrepresent and sacrifice..."

 

I searched for that in the Vishnu Sahasranama.

Could find only two of them.but they dont directly refer to sacrifice since Vishnu pujas are sattwik.

i found:

name 680: Ranapriya

meaning: Fond of wars.

 

name 114: Rudra

meaning: One who makes all beings cry at the time of cosmic dissolution. Rudra surely likes sacrifices.

 

last name: Sarva_praharana_ayudha

meaning: All sorts of weapons to assault.

 

I wonder why this name is the concluding name in the hymn.

In Lalitha Sahasranama,it is Lalithambika --quite reasonable.

 

In Vishnu Sahasranama, more than 70 names repeat.

here and there many conjunctions are pushed into.

Anyway the Vaishnavas justified it in their definitions.

[ranga]

"Ever heard of Jaya /Vijaya who were great devotees of Vishnu and were the guards of Vaikunta, cursed by sages for ego to take birth as Asuras."

 

Sir Jaya and Vijaya were never demons on that birth.And when they become demons on the next birth,they verily opposed Vishnu.

 

There are two highly philosophical aspects to this exceptional scene of two devotees going against the lord.

Those two were never egoistic but their understanding of Earth is very superficial.That is why they demanded three demoniac short births in the place of 45 pure devotees birth.They thought that God is only in Vaikunda.But Vishnu is there wherever his devotees chant his holy name.

Unaware of this,they wanted to reach His lotus feet very quickly and chose a wrong option.

 

Secondly in one of the births, Ravana had to carry Mother Sita the same one whom he glorifed as Jaya.Ravana inspite of all his tapas and inspite of the leela of Mother to just act controlled before him,would not be able even to touch the dust of Mother sita.But it was his previous birth as a devotee in Vaikunda, made him atleast eligible to live in the world till Rama came and killed him.Otherwise the very thought of that abominable act against Sita would have burnt him lest no need for Rama to come and kill him.

 

It is the Supreme Lord's mercy to give a very high past history to even a demon.That is the point.The Lord never take revenge of demons but give a end in their own way.Evil to evil makes the evil good.I dont want to link here how Kali and other gods kill and suck demon's blood everytime the same way.Simply noone can be equal to him.

 

"Ever heard of Madhu/Kesi demons who were just not devotees but actually sprang from Vishnu himself."

 

Madhu and Kesi were never Vishnu devotees.Also everybody Sprang from Vishnu only.The whole universe sprang from him only.In this cosmic form Vishnu shows Arjuna all demons in his body.But they will always remain away from the lord for the Lord says "muda janmana janmani" birth after birth they will continue to be ignorant for one simple quality of Sharanagathi to Vishnu lagging in them.

 

Further vishnu devotees can never become demons as Lord assures in Gita like this "Kshripram Bhavathi Dharmaathmah.... Kaunteya prathijaanihi na me bhakthaa pranashyathi"

(ie) even if a person of most abominable character worships me he will soon become a righteous person for take it from me my devotee NEVER PERISHES"

 

 

[ranga]

Bhadramoorthi,

 

I first of all really appreciate your profound knowledge on Divine Mother,Tantric worship and Lalitha Sthothram.

 

Only very few know fully about Lalith stothram and esp the fact that Vag Devatas composed it.

 

But now with full respect to the great controllers of material energy Shiva and Kali I have to present my arguments for Vishnu is the ONLY Supreme.

 

Sir -- I thought you would bringforth so many nectar like facts from great compostions on Devi side to prove her Maha Satvik nature.But you yourself accept certain facts on Devi Worship the main among them the left hand path and Kaula worship.

 

Left hand tantric path is very very tamasik in nature if I should not use words like passionate and nirvaanaa worship.

 

Kaula worship means animals are killed in sacrifice which inturn means the deity being worshipped is sectarian only to human beings and not macro in understanding the consciousness of other creatures.

 

And with such a tamasik aspect to the Divine Mother, how can a highly evolved soul such as Buddha worship her without any conflict of principles and guiltiness?

 

"She cant be confined to a particular Gunam like the other deities Vishnu,Indra etc..She is an all-rounder."

 

Sir -- this is very weak in argument and highly disappointing.Both evil and good exists in the world.Everything is God's material energy only.But noone will say for that like "Oh be an all-rounder do everything".

That is not the proper approach.The Divie should discard,sit over the evil and bless the Good(not blessing only the Goodness of mankind but the goodness of all creatures).Tamasik guna is in mode of ignorance.Its characteristics are attributed by ignorance.Yes I am ingorant of the sufferings of animals means I am little intelligent.If I am not able to put myself on a goat's part and be empathetic,then I am grossly ignorant and uncaring of others.

 

Surely if a Divine be an all-rounder and take worship from such people also(without trying to change their character but change herself to their needs) I better keep myself away from that Divine.

 

"Ask any of the tantriks why they dont perform sattwik tantras--the answer is simple--it is very hard and slow to bear fruits."

 

Sir tantrik science is a dangerous science and I know many astonishing things about it.'Slow to bear fruits' this phrase is out of context in this transcendtal discussion where we are into finding that real Almighty.

 

"They are the parents---hence no partiality" Yes then no partiality to animals also because our vedic religion believes that animals are soul-creatures unlike christians who conveniently say that they are chemical combinations.

 

Sir -- what I expected from you is numerous quotes and qualities to prove that Devi is pure Satwik and different from Kali and other deities.But it seems you come down and accept tamasik and non vedic worship and with this how can you prove the Almighty aspect of Divine Mother?

 

Today it is really sweet to become a brave valourous person,give animal's blood to Kali,enjoy good life,do social service and argue equanimity.Yes it is even so sweet to call for support from Vedic puranas and tantrism etc etc.It is really very very sweet to call Divine Mother and make her descend to our tastes.But one thing is there A supreme witness at the macro level and our own conscience at the Mini level.It can never lie and will speak what is wrong.

 

But for all these I never discourage people arguing for Divine Mother as Almighty. The only thing I request from them is dont try to justify things but try to prove that your Divine Mother rejects sacrifice,tantrism,eternally remains in pure goodness and loves all.Make a social revolution to stop the society to offer tamasik worship to her.We may be tamasik but we should not link our Divine,make her descend to tamasik things.

 

If you say like "onto their level Devi descends" -- then she becomes partial against animals.So that Devi should try to raise his devotees instead of comind down.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ranga,

 

I accept that worshipping the beautifull image of Perumal in SriRangam and Thirumala gives great bilss, but I don't accept that worshipping Shiva and Devi matha gives opposite feelings. In case you are Tamilian, please listen to Ilayaraja's Thiruvasagam symphony. There is an ancient saying that "Thiruvasagathukku mayangathor oru vasagathukkum mayanga mattaar". You will feel your soul melt away hearing the devotional song of our great saivite sage.

 

Why are people terrified of some faiths (I do not wish to name)? Not because the religion asks its devoties to kill and cheat people, but because the morality of some of the followers has gone so low. I wish the same fate does not befall the vaishnavam.

[Guest guest]

One more thing, quoting excerpts from sanskrit scripture for proving inferiority of our beloved lord may satisfy your ego, but in reality it only lowers the esteem of the scripture themselves and does nothing more.

Everytime I hears excerpts for Vedas and "so called" sattvic puranas, only my aversion to Sankrit increases as a dogmatic philosophy.

I'm a Tamil Iyer, and seeing the caste discrimination in my own family and looking at the snobbish attitude and arrogance of some of the Iyengars, I'm more attracted to soft natured and compasionate ancient Dravidian scriptures.

 

 

 

[narayanadasa]

I think we with our insuficient knowledge/mindset cannot decide who is great, Aacharya's always forbid discussion on this topic.

In fact once when a student asked an Aacharya the Aacharya's response was "Since you can decide who is big, you are bigger than them both".

 

[Guest guest]

There is a saying in Tamil, "whatever good things I recieve in life, I must make sure others also benefit"

 

In that true spirit, I take great pleasure is offering you all this oppurtunity to read the English translation of the greatest work of Tamil civilization.

 

I guarantee that there wouldn't be any anectdote in Kural that hurts your faith or sentiment, infact even non-hindus will appreciate and will be benefited by this great work.

 

Whatever faith you to, you can continue to follow. This is not an attempt to convert anyone to any religion, this is just a guide for leading pious and purposefull life.

 

http://www.tamilnation.org/literature/kural/kuralE1.htm

 

Hope you enjoy reading it.

[Guest guest]

krishna calls in arjuna to recognize the immortality of the spirituality right in chapter 1. Praying to krishna helps recognize THAT knowledge of spirituality, which NEVER PERISHES.

 

You speak so much at lenght of scrifice and tamasik worship, while you may be expected to see the union of Shiva&Shakthi in all manifestations, animate or in-animate.

 

Your discussion of tamasik practices of certain people regarding devi worship is carrying to extreme extremes.

 

It would be difficult to convince you. It is as difficult as convincing the british during their raj in India, that these vaishnavite lot of men hailing the beauty of a male-adult-god are NOT going to promote homosexuality in the streets with their hairless exhbition of their half naked bodies decorated with flowers/chandan mala around their neck & vertical chandan lines to exhibit their curves. It was difficult to prevent the british from banning vaishnava worship and street demonstrations in such fashion, as they were scared or allowing a gay propaganda.

[Guest guest]

I request fellow shaivites to exhibit tolerance in the face of persistant attacks. Counter attack will not change the attitude of our misguided friends, it will only strengthen their resolve to resort to more scathfull techniques. We can only inculcate our pious philosophies by setting a example ourselves. There is no equivalent to love and compassion as is advocated by our great shaiva adiyaargal.

 

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

i noticed your post only today.

i am surprised to see that you have so much hatred for Devi,Siva etc bottled up in your mind.

In that case i dont want to argue.....in vain.

and i dont want to lower myself like those polytheists arguing over supremacy of the forms Vishnu and Siva.

I shall try to answer your logical questions.

but for your hatred over the deities......i cant help

please excuse me.

(once in a thread i became angry over such provocations and i had to suffer the disgrace of the mother.i think She wants me to keep quiet.)

[bhadramoorthi]

"But now with full respect to the great controllers of material energy Shiva and Kali I have to present my arguments for Vishnu is the ONLY Supreme."

 

=your arguments are silly.they can help only to excite hatred in the minds of ordinary devotees of mother/siva etc.

Lord Vyasa Himself said that Vishnu is the material universe.

Thanks for saying that Shiva and Kali rules it.

 

 

"...I thought you would bringforth so many nectar like facts from great compostions on Devi side to prove her Maha Satvik nature..."

 

I have already told you that Devi cant be limited to any natures.

Vishnu is a limited Sattwik diety.His offerings are veg.

That doesnt make Kali a demon.

To say the forms of the Mother like Lakshmi,Saraswathy etc also dont accept sacrifice.Will you say that they are only eligible to be worshipped?and another form Kali is to be hated?

I dont find these deities as different.

I know that the supreme primordial Power(Shakthi) manifested into all these forms.(as we see in the MahaBhagavatam of Devi)

In Vaikunda, we can see its Sattwik entity.

In satya loka,its Rajasik;

In MahaKailasa, its Tamsik.

If anyone finds Siva, Vishnu etc different, he is a polytheist....sure!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Lord Vyasa Himself said that Vishnu is the material universe.

 

 

I wish to know where in Bhagavaan Vyasa says such a thing as you claim.

 

 

If anyone finds Siva, Vishnu etc different, he is a polytheist....sure!

 

 

How ? As per Vedas, Visnu is mentioned as supreme.

 

If one says both are different and says sometimes this one is powerful and sometimes that one is powerful, only then this is called polytheism.

[bhadramoorthi]

"..I wish to know where in Bhagavaan Vyasa says such a thing as you claim.."

 

In the Sahasranama itself!

cant believe?

I can show you.The very first name is: Vishvam.

now, Visvam means the material universe, the manifested Brahman.

the very pathetic fact is that this was said by Lord Vyasa himself and in the very first name of His hymn.

=================

 

 

"....How ? As per Vedas, Visnu is mentioned as supreme.

 

If one says both are different and says sometimes this one is powerful and sometimes that one is powerful, only then this is called polytheism..........."

 

No. polytheism means believing in the existence of more than one god/gods/demigods/goddess etc.

 

If you believe like that, i am sorry ... you are a polytheist.

 

And please dont mention the Vedas,it is full of contradictions.At some verse, it praise Vishnu , sometimes Rudra,sometimes Indra, some verses for Devi etc.

It can only lead us to several pages of useless arguments just like we have seen in the thread "siva versus Vishnu" and so .

[ranga]

Sir,

 

Thankyou for bringing some valid points.Please come up with an id.

 

These people are not able to account for word by word what I posted earlier and unnecessarily alleging wrong things.

 

We respect Shiva and Kali no hatred is there.But truth is truth though bitter.

 

Saraswathi is the power of intelligence and she is wife of Brahma who is a jiva with 100 brahma years of satya lokha life span.It is futile to argue with people who dont know the scriputural importance properly.

[Guest guest]

 

In the Sahasranama itself!

cant believe?

I can show you.The very first name is: Vishvam.

now, Visvam means the material universe, the manifested Brahman.

the very pathetic fact is that this was said by Lord Vyasa himself and in the very first name of His hymn.

 

 

This is what happens to arrogant people with half-baked knowledge.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/

 

The nAma is derived from the root viS - to enter. ViSvam means "Universe".

SrI BhaTTar gives the reference to the following verse from moksha dharma:

 

veSanAt viSvamityAhu: lokAnAm kASisattama |

lokAnSca viSvameva iti pravadanti narAdhipa ||

 

They say BhagavAn is viSvam because He enters all the worlds. (The worlds themselves are called viSvam because of this).

 

So the word does not illustrate identity of Vishnu and material Universe as you claim.

 

 

No. polytheism means believing in the existence of more than one god/gods/demigods/goddess etc.

 

 

So be it. In that case, judaism, xianity and islam which all believe in existence of angels will also become polytheistic. This kind of defiinition is superfluous and political.

 

 

If you believe like that, i am sorry ... you are a polytheist.

 

 

So be it.

 

 

And please dont mention the Vedas,it is full of contradictions.

 

 

Only to illiterates of Sanskrit.

 

 

At some verse, it praise Vishnu , sometimes Rudra,sometimes Indra, some verses for Devi etc.

 

 

So...Vedas also says Visnu is Parama and Agni is avamo(lowest) and all others occupy positions inbetween. Those who cannot understand properly get confused.

 

 

It can only lead us to several pages of useless arguments just like we have seen in the thread "siva versus Vishnu" and so .

 

 

I have been there. Mostly, Shivites and Advaitis were totally defeated. All their explanations were logocally refuted. But those who do not understand keep repeating nonsense.