Vishnu-The ultimate aim?

[Guest guest]

Whenever we refer to Shiva, people don't really understand the true concept of Shiva and mistake it for Vedic god Rudra and trumpet by proving rudra is inferior to visnu using vedic references.

 

Shiva-Shakti is the word used by saiva siddhantins to explain the concept of universal truth (a.k.a God).Nothing to do with Rudra of vedas. In fact, most true saiva sidhanta followers didn't even accept authority of vedas.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva-Shakti is the word used by saiva siddhantins to explain the concept of universal truth (a.k.a God).Nothing to do with Rudra of vedas. In fact, most true saiva sidhanta followers didn't even accept authority of vedas.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

This is total BS and proves these Shivites lie through their teeth.

 

All nayanmars were devotees of Rudra, the resident of Kailasa. All their works reflect that this being Siva is none other than Umapati, resident of kailassa.

 

Should I mention Periyapuranam, Thirumurai etc. All of them mention Siva as Umapati who is none other than Rudra mentioned in Vedas.

 

I have to see how these Shivites go about cheating.

 

Here is a quote from Thirumurai proving Siva of Shivites is Rudra who drank poison, who got a blue throat as per Vedas.

 

 

1.15.1: You may say that Siva, who has the dark throat, who has pArvathi as a part of his body, who wears

the skin of an indestructible elephant, who is the only one, who bathes in ghee, is in ~neyththAnam

temple with pArvathi.

 

1.18.2: The devotees who worship the holy feet of the loving god (Siva), who has poison in his throat and

who likes to wear the fragrant kondRai flower and who is in thiru~nindRiyUr, will have no fear, no

sin, no shortcomings, and do not suffer from daily problems like hunger, desire, etc.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friend,

 

I'm referring to ancient pre-vedic Tamils, while you are referring to Nayanmars, who are post-vedic bakthi movement saints.

Over the span of several thousand years, our religion has accepted various modes of worship and has become a beautiful mixture of different faiths.

Shiva, as worshipped by ancient Tamizhs were so popular that when vedic people first encountered this god, they immediately equated him with vedic god Rudra. This is the popular belief of many contemporary scholars.

 

Moreover, siddhars like SivaVakkiar and Pambatti Siddhar, who was great devotee of Shiva in fact didn't believe in caste system or vedas or, you'll be surprised to know, not even idol worship.

 

They believed the concept of Shiva as in "Anbe Sivam" and considered it along with the word Shakthi as divine words for representing universal truth.

[Guest guest]

Most of the devi worship and shiva worship in the south and east have its original influence from kashmir shaivism, it is said. Kalika is the godess popularly worshiped as shakthi those days in Kashmir.

 

In the attached document on kalika, the devi is described as formless, and as the controller of time. In kanchipuram the temple of aadi kamakshi, the godess is given the same name, Kalika.

 

http://www.ksf.org/pub/sks.pdf

 

The rituals from people towards kalika devi, if un-digestible for one, can be forgotten on the reading of the attached document. It may be difficult though for mundane minds. That's why even shankaracharya, propagated the worship of the goddess in name of sharadambal etc... so that the devi is viewed differently.

[Guest guest]

 

I'm referring to ancient pre-vedic Tamils, while you are referring to Nayanmars, who are post-vedic bakthi movement saints.

Over the span of several thousand years, our religion has accepted various modes of worship and has become a beautiful mixture of different faiths.

Shiva, as worshipped by ancient Tamizhs were so popular that when vedic people first encountered this god, they immediately equated him with vedic god Rudra. This is the popular belief of many contemporary scholars.

 

 

How do you or the scholars know anything about what the so called pre-vedic tamils believed ? What evidence you or the so called scholars have for this claim ?

 

Any guy can claim anything. Without evidence it is all BS.

 

I am a Tamilian myself, and I definitely know that there is not one ounce of literature before 500 BC. Tiruural the earliest Tamil work available(500 BC) mentions Vamana avatara, definitely a sign of Vedic influence only then.

 

All your arguments are silly and meant to cheat people.

 

 

Moreover, siddhars like SivaVakkiar and Pambatti Siddhar, who was great devotee of Shiva in fact didn't believe in caste system or vedas or, you'll be surprised to know, not even idol worship.

 

They believed the concept of Shiva as in "Anbe Sivam" and considered it along with the word Shakthi as divine words for representing universal truth.

 

 

These guys are also the so called post vedic. Why do you consider them as evidence for your imaginary history.

[Guest guest]

Oldest Tamil literature is Tholkappiam and not Thiruvalluvar.

The date you've mentioned is what is widely accepted in the scientific community and is 500B.C. The same community also believed age of Sanskrit around same time.Argument closed.

 

Thirukural does not mention vamana avatar. This argument is also closed.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Indian government has officially accepted that Tamil is independent of Sanskrit and is atleast as old as Sankrit if not older.

I'm not going to argue bogus proofs put forth by VHP and RSS affiliated members who have no reputation in the international scientific community.

[Guest guest]

 

The date you've mentioned is what is widely accepted in the scientific community and is 500B.C. The same community also believed age of Sanskrit around same time.Argument closed.

 

 

Sanskrit defintely precedes this date. Vedas are the evidence for this which is dated 1500 BC. You have no point.

 

 

hirukural does not mention vamana avatar. This argument is also closed.

 

 

A typical lying shivite.

 

MadiyilA Mannavan Aithum AdiyazhanthAn (this word "AdiyazhanthAn" is Definite reference to Visnu as the one who measured everything by foot)

TaAyathu ellAm orungu.(610)

 

Translation

Available Explanation

A king who is devoid of indolence will procure thereby, All that cosmic province measured by God immeasurable strides.

The king whose life from sluggishness is rid, Shall rule o~er all by foot of mighty god bestrid.

 

Here are some influence of Vedas in Thirukkural.

 

Seviunarvin Kezhvi Udyar Aviunavin (This word "aviunavin" refers to sacrificial food)

 

Andrarodoppar (equal to Deities or Gods) Nilathu.(413)

 

Those who in this world enjoy instruction which is the food of the ear, are equal to the Gods, who enjoy the food of the sacrifices.

 

Madiyulal Mamugadi Enba MadiElan

Thalulal ThAmarai(Lotus) Enal(617)

 

In sluggishness is seen misfortune's lurid form, the wise declare;

Where man unslothful toils, she of the lotus flower is there!

 

They say that the black Mudevi (the goddess of adversity) dwells with laziness, and the Lakshmi (the goddess of prosperity) dwells with the labour of the industrious.

[Guest guest]

Indian government accepts many foolish things. They also accept criminals like Lalloo yadav, Jayalalitha, Karunanidhi etc. as representatives.

 

That does not mean these are not criminals.

 

Similarly what Indian government accpets or not is of no sonsequence at all.

 

Linguistics is also based on assumptions and theories and models which are not very reliable. It is all about fitting existinf data into your prejudice which you hold. That is all.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

 

Why you are wasting your time and energy arguing with him.

 

Just read all his threads, his only aim is to somehow divide hindus-

 

He had used Shiva-Vishnu, Tamil-Sanskrit, Caste, Science-Veda and all type of arguments with all possible lies.

 

Whenever he is defeated definitely in one thread by some body he simply switches to another thread.

 

He is not interested in the truth, only to ridicule Vedas and degrade Hinduism, don't waste your time.

[Guest guest]

>Just read all his threads, his only aim is to somehow divide hindus-

 

He had used Shiva-Vishnu, Tamil-Sanskrit, Caste, Science-Veda and all type of arguments with all possible lies.<

 

My aim is not to divide hindus, coz we are already very much divided even in our most fundamental faiths, unlike people of other religions. But I think you are afraid of meeting the differences face to face. I see a beauty in the differences and I enjoy when people express and argue over their points of view, whereas you see a threat in the differences and denounce whoever is not believing what you believe.

 

People are always either inclined towards Shiva or Vishnu, Tamil or Sanskrit, Caste or anti-caste, rational or blind faith. The problem is, I differ from you in most of the beliefs and that makes you think I'm a threat to your faith.

 

>Whenever he is defeated definitely in one thread by some body he simply switches to another thread.<

 

I stop discussing about an issue either because the attacks against me becomes more personal, or because the discussion is going back in circles leading nowhere.

 

>He is not interested in the truth, only to ridicule Vedas and degrade Hinduism, don't waste your time. <

 

I'm entitles to have my own beliefs because religion is a very personal feeling. This is the freedom my religion and society has given me. My aim is not to ridicule vedas, but to point out what in my opinion are the anomalies in various religious scriptures. I'm just expressing my anguish at how people take meaning in scriptures word for word and cause numerous problems to society.

I don't see how I degrade hinduism by doing this. Even in may other religious forums, I find people of same religion arguing about what they believe are the pros and cons of their religion.

I find such discussions an enriching experience. If I find anyone give a satisfactory explanation, I will willingly discard my misconception.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>A typical lying shivite.<

 

I prefer to be called a liar than a bigoted fanatic.

 

I've seen wonderfull and crafty attempts made by several vaishnavites to prove Thiruvalluvar was a vaishnavite, Tholkappiar a vedic and even Lord Shiva as a vaishnavite!

I admire your scholarly skills and brilliance, no wonder Iyengars in Tamil Nadu are holding all top positions in the society both in India and abroad.

 

Once, while I was travelling in a bus from Chennai to Pondicherry, I saw some missionaries handing out papers that claim Agasthiyar and Thiruvalluvar predicted birth and greatness of Jesus Christ. They were quoting similar

selected verses and their (mis)interpretation to prove their point.

[Guest guest]

(In reply to:

--------------------------

 

Vedas also say that agni is all gods.

--

 

Depends on context. Agni may be a coomon noun referring to Narayana.)

 

 

Pat Pat again. Likes of you change context from moment to moment.

 

 

Congrats and best wishes towards self deception.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I happen to get into this site and feel that you may be in a position to shed some light.

 

Who is visnu..... is He one person or is this the post?

 

Further is KRISHNA a expansion of NARAYANA or VISNU.

Or is KRISHNA the source of all.

 

Your answer with some reference will serve in great deal.

 

If possible please reply at vijaya.madhava@gamil.com

 

[Guest guest]

 

Pat Pat again. Likes of you change context from moment to moment.

 

 

Congrats and best wishes towards self deception.

 

 

What does a moron like you know what is deception and what is self-deception ?

[Guest guest]

 

I prefer to be called a liar than a bigoted fanatic.

 

 

I would prefer to be telling the TRUTH rather than appease some misguided people.

 

 

Once, while I was travelling in a bus from Chennai to Pondicherry, I saw some missionaries handing out papers that claim Agasthiyar and Thiruvalluvar predicted birth and greatness of Jesus Christ. They were quoting similar

selected verses and their (mis)interpretation to prove their point.

 

 

Bunch of BS from you as these christians.

 

Why dont you answer the verses of Thiruvalluvar ?

[bhadramoorthi]

[Vaishnavas could answer you better.in fact i could not reply them due to the harsh terms they use.Such discussions take us away from the Divine Grace.]

 

Vishnu is one of the prominent Deities in the Vedam.

Krishna, one of His incarnations to protect the world.

 

It is widely accepted among Hindus that the Brahman is attributeless, ie IT cant be comprehended.That is the Nirguna Brahman. But for us, we need some form to worship, meditate etc. In the Vedas, Lord Vyasa had given us many deities for that purpose. They are called the Saguna Brahman. So the deities are all one.

If it is asked as to why He has identified the saguna bhrahman as NArAyanA, it is because MahA Vishnu has been entrusted with the responsibility of lOka rakshanAm(protection,maintenance), during the division of three primary activities. He has referred to the one who is incharge of protection (of this creation)as the very energy which takes care of this entire 'prapancham'(Material Universe).

 

Hence Vishnu can be said to be supreme in the sence He is non-different from the original Brahman.Similarly Devi, Siva, Ganesha are also is said to be the Supreme in some scriptures.That all are true in the sense that they are all manifestations of the same Brahman.

 

Here is an instance from the Brahmanda Puranam:

===============================================

Agastya asked Hayagreeva “Oh Lord! What is the path of salvation to these ignorant people?”

Hayagreeva replied “There are two paths for this. They are:

 

a) After renouncing everything, one can attain the knowledge of the, attributeless aspect of God. This is a very difficult way.

b) The second method is to worship the Divine Mother who is the form of Vishnu with attributes. Even a sinner can do the worship. There is another advantage inthis type. The devotee can simultaneously get enjoyment and salvation byfollowing this path”.

==========================================================

 

Thus, Hayagreeva had said that Vishnu, Devi are all ONE.

 

Then about the problem:

 

"..Further is KRISHNA a expansion of NARAYANA or VISNU.

Or is KRISHNA the source of all..."

 

The same rule applies. Krishna says He is the source, seed etc because He has abhedam(non-difference) with the supreme Brahman.So Krishna can also be said as the source of the whole existence.

 

Look what Devi says:

 

"..Ekai VaHam JagathYathra

Dwitheeya Ka Mama Para..."

 

meaning: I alone exist in this universe.Where is a second one other than me?

 

Also, if someone says that one deity is supreme and all others are different from Him or are some demigods, then it is pure polytheism.

 

[Guest guest]

(What does a moron like you know what is deception and what is self-deception ? )

 

 

Pat Pat. Shabash.

[Guest guest]

If Lalitha Sahasarnama would grant anywish of a devotee then i dont see y Vishnu should be the only aim.after all being happy and substancial is the ultimate goal for anyone..if we get it by whatever gods blessing its ok,this whole talk of just vishnu being superior doesnt make sense.

It just degrades all other gods.GOD IS SUPREME,there cant be lesser or bigger.Either we should understand that or else keep fighting till eternity.

[vmd]

Visnu is the name of the post (not a personality.)

 

All the avatras are known as Visnu and in all they have hundreds of millions of name. We may only know the famous 10 or 1000 as mentioned in Sahsranama for our planet or this age of Kali.

 

Therefore surrendering to any form of visnu is always the best.

[Guest guest]

In what way surrendering to Visnu better than getting whatever you want thru lalita sahasarnama?I thought there are only 10 avatars of visnu,where from the other 1000s came from?

 

[Guest guest]

 

In what way surrendering to Visnu better than getting whatever you want thru lalita sahasarnama?I thought there are only 10 avatars of visnu,where from the other 1000s came from?

 

 

Only Visnu can grant Mukti. None else can do that for you.

[Guest guest]

What is Mukti?How do you know only Visnu can give it?Has he given to you or someone whom you know?What is the guarantee?

[Guest guest]

 

It is widely accepted among Hindus that the Brahman is attributeless,

 

 

People believe in crazy things. Vedas say Brahman(Narayana=Visnu) is GunaPurna.

 

Purnamidam Purnamadah.....

 

 

Look what Devi says:

 

"..Ekai VaHam JagathYathra

Dwitheeya Ka Mama Para..."

 

meaning: I alone exist in this universe.Where is a second one other than me?

 

 

Tamasa Puranas or fake puranas like Devi Bhagvatam

[Guest guest]

 

(What does a moron like you know what is deception and what is self-deception ? )

 

 

Pat Pat. Shabash.

 

 

As usual guest2 has nothing of substance to offer.