Vishnu-The ultimate aim?

[Guest guest]

(Then he quoted Purnamidam Purnamadah....for Brahman. So my question. If Brahman is attributeless, then how come you call it perfect or complete etc., which is also an attribute or quality of a THING being spoken about ?)

 

(This fool Bhadramoorthi thinks Visvam(sahasranama) means matter)

 

If you call Brahman nirgunam that also will attach an attribute to Brahman. This itself is the quality of vac and mind. Brahman is indescribable beyond these two and as scriptures (including Gita) say is nirgunam.

 

 

 

Instead of calling others fools, please try to be more humble.

 

[Guest guest]

All frm BG 13

 

Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;

Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

 

13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

 

Sarvatah paanipaadam tat sarvato’kshishiromukham;

Sarvatah shrutimalloke sarvamaavritya tishthati.

 

14. With hands and feet everywhere, with eyes, heads and mouths everywhere, with ears everywhere, He exists in the worlds, enveloping all.

 

Sarvendriyagunaabhaasam sarvendriyavivarjitam;

Asaktam sarvabhricchaiva nirgunam gunabhoktru cha.

 

15. Shining by the functions of all the senses, yet without the senses; unattached, yet supporting all; devoid of qualities, yet their experiencer,

 

Bahirantashcha bhootaanaam acharam charameva cha;

Sookshmatwaat tadavijneyam doorastham chaantike cha tat.

 

16. Without and within (all) beings, the unmoving and also the moving; because of His subtlety, unknowable; and near and far away is That.

 

Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;

Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

 

17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

 

Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;

Jnaanam jneyam jnaanagamyam hridi sarvasya vishthitam.

 

18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.

 

 

Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

 

23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Purusha.

 

 

 

 

Read Lord teaching Arjuna that this knowledge is to be gained. Note "nirgunam" in verse 13.14. Note "undivided yet appearing to be divided, the param atma situated in the body is called param Purusha and Mahesvara also.

 

 

 

Param Atma is nirgunam. However you or some gurus may explain it using tortuos serpentine logic.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The original Sanskrit verses from Svetasvatara Upanishad

 

tR^itiiyo.adhyaayaH .

 

ya eko jaalavaaniishata iishaniibhiH

sarvaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

ya evaika udbhave sambhave cha

ya etad.h viduramR^itaaste bhavanti .. 1..

 

eko hi RUDRO na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale

sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

 

vishvatashchaxuruta vishvatomukho

vishvatobaahuruta vishvataspaat.h .

saM baahubhyaa.n dhamati saMpatatrai\-

rdyaavaabhuumii janayan.h deva ekaH .. 3..

 

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha

vishvaadhipo RUDRO maharshhiH .

hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n

sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 4..

 

 

Now read the HK version of the translation.

 

Chapter 3

TEXT 1 They who understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of the network of maya, who alone, with His potencies, rules all the worlds, and who alone, with His potencies, rules all the worlds, and who alone, with His potencies, rules the all the worlds in their creation and maintenance, becomes immortal.

TEXT 2 The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is one without a second, with His potencies rules the worlds. He stays within the living entities. He protects the worlds. He created the worlds and at the last moment He withdraws them.

TEXT 3 His eyes are everywhere. His faces are everywhere. His arms are everywhere. His feet are everywhere. He, the one Supreme Personality of Godhead, breathed life into they who have two arms on the land and they who have wings in the sky.

TEXT 4 May the omniscient Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the creator and protector of the demigods, and who in the beginning fathered the demigod Brahma, give us good intelligence.

 

 

And so it goes. Wherever, Rudra or Siva appears, the translation says “The Supreme Personality of God Head”. This would be fine except that in translation of the Gita, HK followers introduce Lord Siva as a demi god. Either these translations are divine work of God, to keep away the impure and the lusty, or these works are of people fuelled by such jealousy that they do not cavil at changing scriptures. And there is another Gaudiya version also, where Rudro word is replaced by maha prabhu or Chaitanya.

 

 

Below is Ramakrishna Math version, where Rudra is replaced by the word heaven. This is better and correct, since Dauyus (heaven) and Rudra are both said to be the father of Rudras and Maruts in Rig Veda.

 

III-1: It is the self-same One who exists alone at the time of creation and dissolution of the universe that assumes manifold powers and appears as the Divine Lord by virtue of His inscrutable power of Maya. He it is that protects all the worlds and controls all the various forces working therein. Those who realize this Being becomes immortal.

III-2: He who protects and controls the worlds by His own powers, He – Rudra – is indeed one only. There is no one beside Him who can make Him the second. O men, He is present inside the hearts of all beings. After projecting and maintaining all the worlds, He finally withdraws them into Himself.

III-3: Though God, the creator of heaven and earth, is one only, yet Heaven is the real owner of all the eyes, faces, hands and feet in this universe. It is Heaven who inspires them all to do their respective duties in accordance with the knowledge, past actions and tendencies of the various beings (with whom they appear to be associated).

III-4: May Heaven, who created the gods and supports them; who is the origin also of the cosmic soul; who confers bliss and wisdom on the devotes, destroying their sins and sorrows, and punishing all breaches of law – may Heaven, the great seer and the lord of all, endow us with good thoughts.

 

 

Below is a translation, which retains the words as it is.

 

Chapter III

1 The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal.

2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

3 His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

4 He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

 

 

May Rudra Shiva give us a passionless clear intellect.

 

[bhadramoorthi]

<p align=center> </p>

 

Sorry, this post is late, but they had banned me for my previous posts, which they took as blasphemy to Vishnu.But for me, Vishnu and Mother are the same.

 

I hope the 27th verse would be helpful for you.Read the original Sanskrit verse and meditate on the Mother keeping that in mind.

 

[ Let speech be muttered prayers,and all manual tasks the mudra(symbolic arrangement of fingers in worship),let gait be pradakshinam(the steps of circambulation of the deity), let food etc. be the method of offering oblations,let sleep be salutation, let all that is facilely manifested in me be synonymous with worship to you from the point of view of offering the self (in worship). ]

You can chant the Durga sooktham with devotion and a pure mind and body. I think you mean the Rathri Suktam and the Devi Suktam in the Durga SapthaSathi(Devi Mahatmyam).

They are all very powerfull mantras.

 

Lalitha Sahasranamam is also an unequaled hymn.

Hayagreeva says, "No other hymns in the whole Tantras are as effective as the Lalitha Sahasranama."

 

May you hear the mother soon.There is no matter of wishing Mother hear you because She is always listening to each and everything in Her creation.It is we who dont hear Her due to our self-made partitions from the Divine.

 

http://www.amritapuri.org/cultural/mantra/lalita.php

 

http://www.amritapuri.org/cultural/mantra/archana.php

[bhadramoorthi]

<p align=center> </p>

You said:

".........This fool Bhadramoorthi thinks Visvam(sahasranama) means matter...."

 

Your dosage will be coming soon.Currently I have shortage of time.

[ranga]

Bhadru,

 

What is this dosage and all? Its after all an idea exchange.

 

If somebody uses words such as fool and all,dont reply for them.Simply ignore.

 

I appreciate your profound knowledge on Sowndarya Lahari and Lalitha Devi.If you are a tamilian,please visit kamakoti.org to see Deivathin Kural of Maha Perivaa.

[bhadramoorthi]

<p align=center> </p>

 

You said:

".....Its after all an idea exchange.

If somebody uses words such as fool and all,dont reply for them.Simply ignore.........."

 

Sorry I didnt know that while calling me a fool, idiot, dog etc, you guys were actually exchanging "ideas".

Nice way of exchanging IDEAS.

I didnt know such ways.

 

 

I remember you as the one who tried to defame and abuse Mother from your very first post.See, it is still there.

Even though I asked a genuine Question about the Sattwik deity, Lord Vishnu, you replied in a way that each and every sect use to proclaim their superiority over other sects.In that course, you people insulted me and Mother also.

 

Now you pretend to be humble.

But I know that when you remove that mask of humility you are the same as other Vaishnavas.

 

Thanks for Kamakoti.org,

am not tamilian, speak Malayalam, a sweet blend of Sanskrit and Tamil.

 

===========================================================

 

<font face="verdana" ><h3>

By mutual differences of Shiva and Shakti, the (three) gunas originate. All things, such as Brahma and so forth, are my parts, born from my being. Dividing and blending, the various tantras, mantras and kulas come into being. After withdrawing the five fold universe, I, Lalita, become of the nature of nirvana. Once more, men, great nature, egoism, the five elements, sattvas, rajas and tamas become manifested. This universe of parts appears and is then dissolved.

 

</h3></font>

<p align=right>

<font face="verdana" size=4>-- Divine Mother</font></p>

 

[ranga]

Dear Bhadramoorthi,

 

Sorry I didnt know that while calling me a fool, idiot, dog etc, you guys were actually exchanging "ideas".

 

Sir -- you seem to be more upset on me.I did not mean to say that offending you is just one.

 

There is no need to pretend or conceal anything.

 

Take things sportively.But we can continue to stand on our own views.

 

All the best.

 

[ranga]

Dear Bhadramoorthi,

 

"remember you as the one who tried to defame and abuse Mother from ..."

 

If by any means you feel I have abused Mother in derogatory terms,I have no ego to prevent me from deeply regretting the incident.A vaishnava must be humbler than blade of a grass and he must not indulge in hurting others.

 

At the same time,he is given authority by his Acharyas to stand upon his view and prove Narayana is only Supreme.In his process of arguing, he should give utmost respect to great material controllers Shiva and Shakthi.

 

In Durga incarnation,Shakthi was brother of Krishna.In Lalitha Sahasranama also one nama is there as 'Padhmanaba Sahodari'.

 

There is no conflict or discrepancy.I openly accept few in this forum are harsh while supporting their views.This has nothing to do with Vaishnavism.Please dont mix up the terms Vaishnavas to individual views.Myself as an individual if abused mother,then it did not mean Vaishnavism did that.It is a great philosophy sustaining on its own and in the strenght of great Acharyas.

 

Even today when thousands of devotees has invested their life air on Tirupathi lord,there exists some people of shaivism to say that the statue is Lord Murugas one.

For this I will never mean to say Shaivities are cunning.

 

Same with Islamic Jihad or Christianic Conversion.We cannot attribute the people's mindset to that of great religions or their Acharyas.Prophet or Jesus never meant what current day followers do.Please understand that.

 

I note nowadays your anger shoots up for each and everything and in the process you have started to hate everybody coming to your discussion.

 

Actually I like your profound knowledge,faith and devotion.From my starting post I never missed to first appreciate you before arguing.

 

I am commenting just on the views and not on the Divine Mother.Indeed when in a post,somebody degraded Aurobindo a advaitic sage,I promptly opposed that.But that does not mean I am a advaitin.

 

I respect personalities for their austerities may they arise from all walks of life.

 

If you accept Vaishnavas to mix up all deities and finally claim I am all of them,it is never possible and we are stubborn on that.But respect,humility are basic characters of a vaishnava.

 

IF BY ANY MEANS IF YOU STILL THINK I HAVE HURTED MOTHER,I DEEPLY REGRET FOR MY MISTAKE.

 

Err is human and I am not a person to escape mistakes or justify.

 

Sorry to have blown my own trumphet throghout this post,but it was essential to clear the wrong impression you have about me in your mind.

 

Please reply cheerfully and happily.It is mankind love that binds material existence together.

 

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

<p align=center> </p>

 

There is no use of being angry to others.We dont know the past nor the future.May be the person we hate now was our own child or parent in our previous birth, whom we loved with utmost affection and got love and affection in return too.So we should not hate anyone.Serve the Lord through His creation should be our motto.

 

Forgive me if I was angry in my post.

 

"..It is mankind love that binds material existence together..."

 

Carry on. Good luck.Please be careful not to be attached with material relations too much.(remember the case of jada Bharata)

[ranga]

Sir,

 

I was not really angry with you but little bit upset.

In your profound knowledge on Devi scriptures,I really become happy.But the sudden expose of angry words were making me disturbed.

 

In my part also I should learn to express a opinion in a more dignified way.

 

"Please be careful not to be attached with material relations too much.(remember the case of jada Bharata)"

 

These words are hundred percent true.But I am not able to apply this with few most important people in my life -- my parents and few elders.Sir -- I am in a trap that daily I cry like anything.I always fear I will lose them.Maya is very great that our buddhi study of scriptures stucks up without real experience.

 

But I hope Lord Venketeshwara will protect them until I become mature enough and they be able to see my marriage and children.

 

Bhagavan is very great and let us hope all good to follow.Let there be peace and devotion.Let there be austerity and purity.Let there be his holy name always!!

 

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

<p align=center> </p>

Your post gives the impression that you are a child.Thus, all your arguments are forgiven.I should now try to correct them peacefully.

 

"..A vaishnava must be humbler than blade of a grass and he must not indulge in hurting others..."

 

Nice. Everyone should be like that.But that can happen only if we all realize that we all are children of the same Mother.Distinct deities can cause only mutual abuses.

 

"..At the same time,he is given authority by his Acharyas to stand upon his view and prove Narayana is only Supreme..."

 

Please dont listen to such acharyas.Those drove us away from the real smartha philosophy of Lord Veda Vyasa.

Listen only to what Lord Vyasa had given us.

 

"..In his process of arguing, he should give utmost respect to great material controllers Shiva and Shakthi."

 

They are all ideas after all.and were developed by some religious men to prove their supremacy.

Actually, Mother in Lord Vishnu form is the material protector.He is made to be born inside the universe like an ordinary human only to protect the material universe.

His boar form with the long teeth which lifts the earth from the ocean shows that He is the one to raise us from the mud of materialism.Only then we can reach the higher truths.

 

"...In Durga incarnation,Shakthi was brother of Krishna.In Lalitha Sahasranama also one nama is there as 'Padhmanaba Sahodari'..."

 

True. Brother-Sister relation can also be applied since all came from one source.

Some philosophy is like this:

ParaBrahma-- during creation becomes two--one the Purusha namely Vishnu and next, the Prakriti namely MahaLakshmi(Durga).

Thus, your argument is correct.They can be siblings.

 

"..It is a great philosophy sustaining on its own and in the strenght of great Acharyas..."

 

Philosophies are after all Philosophies. There can be numerous. But truth is only one. We cannot make philosophies the truth, because truth is already there.

 

quote from Sri Nirmala Devi:

"At the very outset we have to understand that we cannot create truth, we cannot organize truth. Truth is, was and will be.

 

We cannot cheat truth. We have to reach that point to receive it. It is not a mental achievement. It is not a concept, we cannot change it.

 

Sahaja Yoga establishes the proof of truth and enables you to experience it. Where the seekers of truth are misled, the results have been disastrous."

 

"....Even today when thousands of devotees has invested their life air on Tirupathi lord,there exists some people of shaivism to say that the statue is Lord Murugas one.For this I will never mean to say Shaivities are cunning..."

 

What if Muruga? Will you go to hell? Very humourous statement of yours.

 

"..Actually I like your profound knowledge,faith and devotion.From my starting post I never missed to first appreciate you before arguing..."

 

I dont know anything, and I am not satisfied with my devotion.

Your logic is like saying: "I NEVER MISSED TO LIFT YOU ONE MILE ABOVE THE GROUND BEFORE DROPPING YOU DOWN"

 

see the blunder yourself. We should not Flatter someone if our next step is to abuse them.

 

"...If you accept Vaishnavas to mix up all deities and finally claim I am all of them,it is never possible and we are stubborn on that..."

 

Yes. it requires a lot effort to realize or at least accept it.May be you can escape into Vaikundam through Vaishnavism.

i wonder what would happen to the inhabitants of that planet when the Maha-Pralaya comes.

 

<p align=center>Sthowmi Nidraam Bhagavatheem </p>

[ranga]

Sir,

 

I am a 22 year old boy just started career one year ago.

 

Vaikunda is an eternal planet and cannot be annihilated.Acharyas of Vaishnava sampradaya such as Raghavendra,Ramanuja,Madhvacharaya,Nimbarka all preached love and tapas only.

 

Sir -- I am exhausted nowadays due to heavy blow from all corners of life.Thats why I am very tired or even unable to answer some of your valid points raised now.

 

Please pray that I may come out successfully from this trap created by my own karma.

 

But I would like to juz say my words to the above point

 

"I NEVER MISSED TO LIFT YOU ONE MILE ABOVE THE GROUND BEFORE DROPPING YOU DOWN"

 

Never I thought like that when I appreciated you.I am a person who loves and enjoys great vedic debates and discussion.Everytime I open your post,pleasant smile comes to my face no matter what you write.

 

But apart from all that,my current circumstances are very compelling to get distressed and cry.

 

Please introduce yourself and pray for my well being.

 

Kindly,

Krishnamoorthy alias Ranga