Vishnu-The ultimate aim?

[bhadramoorthi]

this is wat you have said:

 

"...So...Vedas also says Visnu is Parama and Agni is avamo(lowest) and all others occupy positions inbetween. Those who cannot understand properly get confused..."

==============

 

may i ask wat is so peculiar in the above sentence to understand?

it is plainly said without any hidden meanings.

so there is no matter of proper understanding!

 

and Vedas compare Vishnu and Agni!!!

so that means they are all comparable....(in your words, demigods)

 

Agni is the lowest among demi gods and Vishnu highest???

are they all of the same standards to be compared??

 

No wonder people go for much higher deities like Siva and Sakthi...they need something beyond the vedic demigods.

 

I also found Devi as the supreme abode in the Devi Bhagavatam,MahaBhagavatam etc.She stands much above the trimurtis---Brahma,Vishnu and Rudra.

 

God is infinite DONT TRY TO PUT INTO A BOX...OK??

 

[ranga]

"...So...Vedas also says Visnu is Parama and Agni is avamo(lowest) and all others occupy positions inbetween. Those who cannot understand properly get confused..."

 

 

Yes Vishnu is Parama means Paramam full,perfection,all pervading and what not? Para brahmam,Parama gatih: refer the same.Why you interpret like a lawyer?

 

Siva and Devi are not higher than Vishnu.If your Devi is really highest, then while killing Mahishaasura she should not have received divine weapons from all devas.When Vishnu starts to kill demons he does on his own without devas help.

His Avatars mainly focus on protecting devotees.

 

(except for in Ramayana Indra gave his chariot to Ramachandra because that Avatar was especially to benefit human society by assuming ordinary human form).

 

You sometimes support Advaita and sometimes Devi greatness but never Vishnu greatness.

 

It seems your aim is just to pull down Vishnu but who are we to do that?

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

and Vedas compare Vishnu and Agni!!!

so that means they are all comparable....(in your words, demigods)

 

Agni is the lowest among demi gods and Vishnu highest???

are they all of the same standards to be compared??

 

 

Paramam means nothing beyond it. I cannot answer to chidish questions and chidish opinions.

 

 

No wonder people go for much higher deities like Siva and Sakthi...they need something beyond the vedic demigods.

 

I also found Devi as the supreme abode in the Devi Bhagavatam,MahaBhagavatam etc.She stands much above the trimurtis---Brahma,Vishnu and Rudra.

 

 

There is this guy Puttaparti Sai Baba. I have heard he claims that Rama and Krishna are not purna avataras, it is he that is Purna avaatara and svayam Bhagavaan.

 

Tommorow somebodyelse will come and write another book on this sai baba, claiming to be greater than your devi and shiva.

 

Devi Bhagavatam and the rest are written by fake guys.

[bhadramoorthi]

your assumptions on god are limited to the four-handed guy vishnu.ok go on that path and realise him so that in your later births you could worship Devi.

it is actually the Supreme mother who took the form of vishnu and all the gods.that is why she is called VISHNU_ROOPINI so hating devi is hating vishnu.

also,if you could, try to overcome the fundamentalism and hatred for Devi that you possess.

[bhadramoorthi]

"..he claims that Rama and Krishna are not purna avataras,..."

 

It is true that they are not purna.

only the vaishnavas say that they are purna.

most occasions, they behaved lesser than ordinary humans.

 

"...Paramam means nothing beyond it..."

It is all about the vedic demigods.not the real unmanifest God.

 

so may Vishnu be the greatest among the gods and goddesses mentioned in the Vedas.

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

"..This is what happens to arrogant people with half-baked knowledge..."

 

I have read the sahasranama link given by you and understood that it was a bigot who wrote it.

 

At first he has given the correct meaning of "VISHVAM" ie material universe.

then he goes on with his own interpretations to exalt vishnu.it is not fair.

Let anyone other than the vaishnavas say...only then i could believe.

 

[bhadramoorthi]

i felt the thorn in your addressing "If your devi........"

 

this is what you have said:

"..If your Devi is really highest, then while killing Mahishaasura she should not have received divine weapons from all devas..."

 

That story is meant to prove that Devi possess the powers of all the Devas.She includes everyone in her.

 

"..When Vishnu starts to kill demons he does on his own without devas help..."

 

i cant help laughing...

check your silly point.

vishnu always depends on others.i shall unwillingly quote some mythology to prove this.may mother forgive me if i am wrong.

Vishnu has been given Mother Lakshmi by the Divine Mother so that he could live in riches.Vishnu is totally dependent on Lakshmi, the wealth goddess.

While attacked by Madhu, Brahma called vishnu to help, but he couldnt come because he was affected by Devi as Nidra.

When Brahma prayed to the nidra form of Devi,she made Vishnu free.So again he is dependent on Devi to be ready for action.When his fight with Madhu,kaitabha went on for yugas, the Supreme mother came to help him in his duty of protection of her universe,which was assigned to him.

For transport, he depends on an eagle! for killing, he depends on the Sudarshana(which is a derivative of the mother's "SREE CHAKRA".)

and how he got Hayagreeva form?

wasnt it the devas(in your words, demigods) who replaced his head which was torn away by the bow?

[Guest guest]

You say you worship the mother of the universe, Shakti. But there is no shakti without shaktiman, so if you worship Shakti, you also worship Shaktimaan or Visnu. He-he, we win. You're a Vaishnavite, sonny, because you worshp Radha-KRishna/shakti-shaktimaan.

[Guest guest]

 

your assumptions on god are limited to the four-handed guy vishnu.ok go on that path and realise him so that in your later births you could worship Devi.

 

 

I have no need of assumptions as I depend on Vedas. If Vedas mention that the Purusha of Purusha Sukta has 1000s of hands, faces etc. I go as per that. If Veda states that Narayana has a four-handed form, I folow it and do not make up bogus scriptures like devi Bhagavatam etc.

 

 

it is actually the Supreme mother who took the form of vishnu and all the gods.that is why she is called VISHNU_ROOPINI so hating devi is hating vishnu.

 

 

Says who ? Is it some Some Advaiti ? Show me in Vedas ?

 

 

also,if you could, try to overcome the fundamentalism and hatred for Devi that you possess.

 

 

I cannot hold hatred for imaginary beings. Definitely your Devi is not found in Vedas and there is no scripture higher than Vedas.

[Guest guest]

 

It is true that they are not purna.

only the vaishnavas say that they are purna.

most occasions, they behaved lesser than ordinary humans.

 

 

As though you have realized everything about reality you make statements on Vedas ? Only ignorant and arrogant make such claims.

 

 

"...Paramam means nothing beyond it..."

It is all about the vedic demigods.not the real unmanifest God.

 

 

This is your ignorant opinion. It is falsehood as this statement is made by you who is finite and full of faults like ahankara, mada, matsarya, loba etc.

 

Vaishnavas would rather depend on Vedas which are apourasheya, beyond faults and not authored by faulty human beings.

 

 

so may Vishnu be the greatest among the gods and goddesses mentioned in the Vedas.

 

 

What Vedas say includes everything. Visnu is sarvottama. It includes BrahmA, Sarasvati, Rudra, Parvati and entire existence etc. Visnu means one who pervades everything.

[Guest guest]

 

I have read the sahasranama link given by you and understood that it was a bigot who wrote it.

 

At first he has given the correct meaning of "VISHVAM" ie material universe.

then he goes on with his own interpretations to exalt vishnu.it is not fair.

Let anyone other than the vaishnavas say...only then i could believe.

 

 

This statement of yours exhibits two things.

 

1. Total lack of knowledge on Vedas or Sanskrit.

2. Ahankara and total foolishness with silly and rubbish excuses not to accept the truth.

 

Talk about cheaing tendencies of Shivites like you. When the falsehood of their belief is shown, they without shame even reject Vedas, compose scriptures of falsehood like Devi Bhagavatam etc., and even have the nerve to interpolate Sruti, Puranas and itihaasas. The case in point is the non-existent verse in the first anuvaka of Rudram.

 

Coming to the point, if you do not believe in a Vaishnavas explanation, did you not notice the meanings given by Chinmayananda ? He is not a Vaishnavite, but an advaiti for your information.

 

SrI cinmayAnanda explains the nAma "viSvam" by referring to the viSva rUpam or virAT purusha. He refers us to SrI vishNu purANam - sa eva sarva bhUtAtmA viSva rUpo yato avayayah - (vishNu purA. 1.2.69). He is the soul of all that exists, and everything is His body.

 

 

If you still do not believe here sre some other links.

 

http://www.hinduism.co.za/vishnu.htm

 

here is an advaita view that I do not agree with, as it denies the reality of created material world itself.

 

http://www.mypurohith.com/Rituals/VISHNU_SAHASRANAAM4.asp

[Guest guest]

 

i felt the thorn in your addressing "If your devi........"

 

 

Truth always hurts asuras and people following falsehood with imaginary stories from bogus scriptures like devi-bhagavatam etc.

 

 

this is what you have said:

"..If your Devi is really highest, then while killing Mahishaasura she should not have received divine weapons from all devas..."

 

That story is meant to prove that Devi possess the powers of all the Devas.She includes everyone in her.

 

 

It may be that She cannot do anything by herself. Depends on your perpective...

 

 

"..When Vishnu starts to kill demons he does on his own without devas help..."

 

 

It is actually the other way round. All Devatas including Rudra(Bhasmasura) run to Narayana for help once they have trouble from demons.

 

 

Vishnu has been given Mother Lakshmi by the Divine Mother so that he could live in riches.Vishnu is totally dependent on Lakshmi, the wealth goddess.

 

 

It is Lakshmi Devi Herself who chooses Narayana, not finding anybody else worthy for Her, and not the other way round. Why would Narayana look for a woman, when HE owns the entire existence and pervades it ?

 

 

While attacked by Madhu, Brahma called vishnu to help, but he couldnt come because he was affected by Devi as Nidra.

When Brahma prayed to the nidra form of Devi,she made Vishnu free.So again he is dependent on Devi to be ready for action.When his fight with Madhu,kaitabha went on for yugas, the Supreme mother came to help him in his duty of protection of her universe,which was assigned to him.

 

 

Bogus stories written by cheater Shaktites in bogus scriptures like devi bhagavatam.

 

Mahabharatha has a different version and is more believeable. Refer From the Mahabharata, Vana Parva, Section CCII. Here Lord Visnu kills them and no devi comes here.

 

 

For transport, he depends on an eagle!

 

 

Nonsense. What does the Omnipresent Lord Visnu need Garuda for. It is a privilege given to Garuda and not the other way round, just like it is Lakshmi Devi who needed Visnu.

 

One can ask why your Devi is depicted with a lion as her Vahana. I mention as your Devi as you believe in unvedic, perhaps imaginary, beings.

 

 

he depends on the Sudarshana(which is a derivative of the mother's "SREE CHAKRA".)

 

 

Nonsense from devi bhagavatam again.

 

 

and how he got Hayagreeva form?

wasnt it the devas(in your words, demigods) who replaced his head which was torn away by the bow?

 

 

Again non-sense from devi bhagavatam, which clearly contradicts Srutis like Purusa Sukta, Visvakarma Sukta etc. which all mention Visnu as eternal and beyond destruction.

 

Since devi bhagavatam contradicts sruti, it can be safely be concluded to be nonsense.

[Guest guest]

(Radha-KRishna/shakti-shaktimaan)

 

 

I thought I read that linga rupi sambhu is saktiman as stated in Brahma Samhitas?

[Guest guest]

(I have been there. Mostly, Shivites and Advaitis were totally defeated. All their explanations were logocally refuted. But those who do not understand keep repeating nonsense. )

 

 

Pat Pat. Patting one's own back is cheap, so I patted your back for you.

 

 

(So...Vedas also says Visnu is Parama and Agni is avamo(lowest) and all others occupy positions inbetween)

 

 

The Lord does not stand comparison. The verse specifies that 'among devas' agni is avamo and visnu parama. Vedas also say that agni is all gods.

 

 

Those who at every opportunity come to parade supremacy of some god, actually are parading their ego and they simply do not appreciate one atma.

[Guest guest]

 

Pat Pat. Patting one's own back is cheap, so I patted your back for you.

 

 

Just my observation of facts. Rest of the things quoted by advaitis are full of errors.

 

 

The Lord does not stand comparison.

 

 

In comparison to what ? There you have already compared.

 

Advaita makes no sense.

 

 

The verse specifies that 'among devas' agni is avamo and visnu parama.

 

 

 

The sanskrit does not say 'among devas'. It simply states "Agnir avamo Visnoh parama". "Visnoh Parama" means nothing beyond Visnu.

 

 

Vedas also say that agni is all gods.

 

 

Depends on context. Agni may be a coomon noun referring to Narayana.

 

 

Those who at every opportunity come to parade supremacy of some god, actually are parading their ego and they simply do not appreciate one atma.

 

 

Those who say that the world has no reality, "I am god", etc. are relly parading their ego and do not realize that they are denying even Srutis.

[bhadramoorthi]

"...Yes Vishnu is Parama means Paramam full,perfection,all pervading and what not? Para brahmam,Parama gatih: refer the same.Why you interpret like a lawyer?.."

 

You can only say like that.bcoz u r a vaishnava.

none other than the vaishnavas will say like that.

majority wins!!

What you say is that vishnu is the greatest among the vedic demi-gods.

[bhadramoorthi]

"...You sometimes support Advaita and sometimes Devi greatness but never Vishnu greatness..."

 

I never said abt advaitam.It is beyond the reach of materialists like you.could be only attained by Yogis.

 

What i said was ABHEDA among the deities.

 

Why should one accept vishnu greatness?

Vishnu as a vedic god is ok.

But as the supreme God?????

nay........never!

[bhadramoorthi]

Brahman is the kartA or the Creator here (the Cause), and viSvam is the creation or the effect.

 

and Vishnu =Vishwam

SupremeOne =Brahman,which is called by the crores of names of Devi.

[bhadramoorthi]

you said:

"..Devi Bhagavatam and the rest are written by fake guys..."

 

your authority please?

and you say all the scriptures other than the vaishnava scriptures are false!this is religious fundamentalism!

As i am aware of the deep,deep vedanta philosophies, theologies, logics,tattwams etc given through the Devi scriptures, it is evident that it is not a fake.

and in your words,it is a fake.

then it follows that what you have told is a lie.

it means that you are a fake.

so hello Mr.FAKE,could you please shut up?

and please dont disturb the hindu harmony.

my satguru had said that all deities are one and to realise this, we should first concentrate on one of them.Vaishnavas are doing the same, but they denounce all other deities unknowingly.if you continue so, you will reach nowhere!

 

now i am aware of the vaishnava mentality.

they are just like the christians and muslims.they think they have some different god, who rules over some demigods and that there is no supreme brahman.they also think that god has a human form as the christians does, with an exception that the vaishnavas have a four armed god!

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Brahman is the kartA or the Creator here (the Cause), and viSvam is the creation or the effect.

 

and Vishnu =Vishwam

SupremeOne =Brahman,which is called by the crores of names of Devi.

 

 

Your interpretation is at best childish.

 

It is this same Visnu who is also called Bhutakrit, Akshara, Paramagati, etc.

 

You keep spouting your idiotic nonsense. Even Shankara does not hold such perverse views.

[Guest guest]

 

You can only say like that.bcoz u r a vaishnava.

none other than the vaishnavas will say like that.

majority wins!!

What you say is that vishnu is the greatest among the vedic demi-gods.

 

 

Where does it say "among the demi-gods" ?

 

The sanskrit verse is "Agnir avamo Vishnoh Paramas". There is no "among demigods" here.

 

Typical fool or typical shaktite cheater.

[Guest guest]

 

you said:

"..Devi Bhagavatam and the rest are written by fake guys..."

 

your authority please?

 

 

Your authority for this fake purana please ?

 

It is not one of 18 Puranas authored by Veda Vyasa ? End of story that it is all fake.

 

 

As i am aware of the deep,deep vedanta philosophies, theologies, logics,tattwams etc given through the Devi scriptures, it is evident that it is not a fake.

 

 

As I am aware of the deeper, deeper Vedanta philosophies, theologies, logics, tattwams etc. given through Vedas themselves, and about the fake teachings of devi Bhagavatam it is evident that Devi Bhagavatam is false.

 

 

it is not a fake.

and in your words,it is a fake.

then it follows that what you have told is a lie.

it means that you are a fake.

 

 

It is fake .

and in your words, it is not fake.

then it follows that what you have told is a lie.

it means that you are a fake.

 

 

so hello Mr.FAKE,could you please shut up?

and please dont disturb the hindu harmony.

 

 

so hello Mr.FAKE,could you please shut up?

and please dont spread Falsehood in the name of harmony.

 

 

my satguru had said that all deities are one and to realise this, we should first concentrate on one of them.Vaishnavas are doing the same, but they denounce all other deities unknowingly.if you continue so, you will reach nowhere!

 

 

Your satguru and their teachings are also falsehood.

 

 

now i am aware of the vaishnava mentality.

....

they think they have some different god, who rules over some demigods

 

 

Whether you or your asatguru like it or not, this is the Truth taught by vedas.

 

 

and that there is no supreme brahman.

 

 

On the contrary, Vaishnavas know that supreme Brahman is none other than Lord Visnu.

 

 

they also think that god has a human form as the christians does, with an exception that the vaishnavas have a four armed god!

 

 

Vaishnavas know that Narayana has uncountable number of forms, unlike false teachings of advaita and shaktism.

[Guest guest]

 

Vishnu as a vedic god is ok.

But as the supreme God?????

nay........never!

 

 

Dog barking at sun.

[ranga]

Dear Bhadramoorthi,

 

We have had enough discussion regarding this topic.

 

"and you say all the scriptures other than the vaishnava scriptures are false!this is religious fundamentalism!

"

 

"now i am aware of the vaishnava mentality.

they are just like the christians and muslims....."

 

These words have come out because of utter disgust of you on Vaishnava's part.The problem is that when you directly meet Srirangam Vaishnvas or even my humble self, this much of harshness wont be there.Our culture,way of life,food etc is revolving around one Supreme Lord Vishnu.Nothing else we need to know or willing to know.He is our life air and we are after him like hypnotized people.You may call this a madness but it is this madness we aspire for.

 

 

When you pay a visit to Srirangam,you can still see in this yuga so many orthodox vaishnvas who lead a life of pure austerities and bhakthi.It is very sad that you compare Vaishnavas with Islamic fanatism which is turning out to be a destructive force of the world.

 

The discussions in any forum must serve the purpose of healthy debates with no hatred to the person arguing.After all we Vaishnavas believe in peace,love and non violence.It is for this basic three principles we are uncomprimising on any worship lower than that of pure goodness.

 

A philosophy or theory must be weighed not only based on some scriputres but also on the strength of followers and their progress.In the name of trance so many pseudo Devi devotees cheat people and collect money.If you visit Kamaghya in Assam,any kind hearted soul will become terrified.Even few decades before human sacrifice existed.

 

All these I am not saying to degrade Devi the material energy of Vishnu.Without her grace,no success on material level can be achieved.

 

We are not against Devi worship or Shiva worship but we argue that Vishu path is the supreme one.And as we expect we receive many counter arguments and we answer.

 

One thing I accept "..Devi Bhagavatam and the rest are written by fake guys..."

 

This statement sounds little bit hard but it is a fact in one way.What the writer tries to convey is that material energy or maya energy takes its many forms to deceive one who is envious of Vishnu or Supreme Reality.

 

 

"my satguru had said that all deities are one and to realise this, we should first concentrate on one of them.."

These words show you follow Advaita but then you argue like Vishnu is chief among demi-gods and Devi is supreme.

 

I request you to stick to a particular philosophy rather than being focussed on simply hating and bashing Vaishnavas.

 

 

."they also think that god has a human form as the christians does"

So if you are happy with Devi worship please proceed but dont say God's human form is something imaginary and Advaita is the truthu.It offends the Devi herself.How can you be devoted to something which is just for a concentration point and does not really exist?No sir it is not the case.Devi does exist in human form and so the Supreme Lord Vishnu.If you consider this a superstition,then you are doubting the very presence of God as you are forcing him to be formless.

 

Bhadramoorthi -- I have no hatred towards you and I hope the same from you.We are under the tree of Vedic Religion.

 

Hence please concentrate on your Devi worship and keep up your austerities.It will help to elevate you if not to the perfection.

 

But dont just join others in degrading Vaishnavas for so many genuine acharyas who has lived a life of devotion for this great bhakthi movement will get offended.

 

 

All the very best!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[bhadramoorthi]

Some Dwaitin said:

========

"...You say you worship the mother of the universe, Shakti. But there is no shakti without shaktiman, so if you worship Shakti, you also worship Shaktimaan or Visnu. He-he, we win. You're a Vaishnavite, sonny, because you worshp Radha-KRishna/shakti-shaktimaan..."

========

 

No one except you would say that.I think it is because you love the deity Krishna very much.And, the Shaktimaan you asked was not Vishnu,nor Krishna, But SADASIVA or MAHA KAMESWARA.

No one could yet define SADASIVA properly.Some of the defenitions given to the term SADASIVA come close but could not capture HIM in the complete sense.

Vishnu, the Protector entity of the Mother Supreme is the Shaktimaan of Mother Lakshmi(=the Wealth Goddess and another form of the Mother Supreme).

Krishna is the Shaktimaan of the maiden Radha.

Mother Supreme is the most PatiVrata and wont accept anyone other than SADASIVA.

 

Srimad Sankaracharya says in Soundarya Lahari:

 

"Virinchihi Panchatwam Vrajathi Harir Apnothi Virathim

Vinasham Kinasho Bhajathi Dhanado Yathi Nidhanam

Vithandri Mahendri Vithathir api Sammeelitha Drisha

Maha Samharare Asmin Viharathi Sathi Twat Pathi Rasow."

 

meaning:

Virincha(Brahma, the creator) proceeds to death.Hari(Vishnu, the supreme among Vedic characters) meets an end.Kinaasa(Yama,another Vedic god) obtains destruction. Dhanada(Kubera) proceeds to death.The group of Indras(Lord of the vedic gods) are also in deep sleep(death) with eyes closed.Oh Sati!(Mother Supreme) in this great universal destruction, this(SADASIVA) your husband sports.