Vaishnavite intolerance

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I often find that vaishnavites are extremely intolerant, even though they use beautiful language, they sound very humble and they are so scholarly,still no one will fail to notice the hidden contempt they have for shaivites and their god.

 

Meanwhile, Shaivites, are made to appear very uncivilzed, hot tempered and ignorant of scripture, but they still don't go about insulting other religions and gods. What when wrong? Infact they have no problem accepting vishnu's superiority, but are only angered when their beloved Shiva is insulted.

 

 

[Sephiroth]

What when wrong?

 

It's Human Nature - kind of Ego that you feel you are correct and others are wrong.

 

I have a Chinese colleaque here in my workplace who behave just like that. We play video games (both owns a Sony PS2 and play RPG). At first, I thought he bugs me to play the same game as he does so we could discuss the details of the game during lunch.

 

But soon, his ugly side appears. He interrupts me whenever I speak of diferent things, he qoutes from other sources but ignores my own findings (forgetting that those who put the resources on the Net are also players like us). He even says I will not finish the game because my views are incorrect and there fore, I err in my gameplay.

 

I choose to ignore such idiot, stop debating on similar games and simply listen without saying anything. Talk all you want, see if I give a damn attitude.

 

So, don't get so worked up. This sort of idiots are dime a dozen, both in the Internet and in the real World and they come in various categories like religion, game and such.

[barney]

Dear Shivite,

 

There is no seperation in God. All three Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are one and the same but with different functions. But most do not realize that all three were created by one Supreme Power call Sakthi. Sakthi is power[sHE] in female form we call Athi Parasakthi. Mother Durga is one of her forms. She is also divided into main three forms that is Parvathy[shiva's consort], Lakchumi[Vishnu's consort] and Saraswathy[brahma's consort]. Whithout these three sakthis Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva would be powerless. So, instead of fighting over who is greatest I would advice both to go deeoper into the scriptures and learn more about Mother Durga. Devotees do not call Narayanalakchumi but LakchumiNarayanan. There is a story behind it.

 

It is the one female powerhouse that rediates and illuminates this planet and that is Athiparasakthi. That is why only female takes the role of motherhood. Without the female this world would be in darkness and unpopulated. You can pray to any one diety but all prayers in the end goes to Mother Durga who protects her children from the clutches of the evil.

 

Let them praise Krishna or Vishnu but in the end their prayers would go to Mother Durga. So, next time just ignore them if they degrade Shiva who is merged with the Supreme Mother Durga. That is why HE to is known as Athimoolam.

[Guest guest]

I repect your view, if Shakthi is your ishta devata, then god will appear in Shakti form and liberate your soul.

But I don't agree the scripture part, I generally don't believe in scripture, probably a few centuries ago, when people didn't know anything outside their own realm, their scriptures would be the ultimate authority for them.

 

But in this modern era, we know that India is not world and hinduism is not the only religion so there is lot of doubt about the authenticity of the so called scriptures.

I now don't believe that veda is delivered by god, if so, how could the same god have delivered a philosophically different bible?

Vedas and other holy scriptures are just brilliant guidelines written by great scholars to help us attain high moral standards.

In that sense, I have greater respect for Thirukural, its secular and non-partisan nature is timeless.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I typed the previous msg under guest id. Forgot to login.

[Guest guest]

If you are an Indian and living in China what would you do? Would you instill leasrn their language to communicate with them or would you insist that they learn your languge in order to do business with you? Surely you would learn thier languang and go along with their culture. So is God. Knowing India to be a vast nation with multiracial and languange there were many saints / mahatmas/rishis who appeared in the north, south, east and west. Each delivering the knowledge about God in their own mother tounge and suitable to their own culture. So did God picked messangers in other parts of the world. But ultimately the massage is the same. Do good to others, believe in the existence of the Supreme Being, respect the elders and live by the laws of Dharma.

 

The Vedas may not have been delivered by God in person but the information were received by the sages directly from God and no one can deny that. May be you should read them and understand before denying it. What we practice today is what was written 5 to 10 thousand years ago. It is all here but we fail to understand it.

 

Yes, I agree Thrikural is a great book but even Valluar must have had the inspiration from the vedas otherwise you cannot write such a book. Manudharma was written way before Thirukural and what is the difference between these two. It is all faith and good behaviour that makes a man stand out. Not making one's diety the greatest and compelling others to follo what you believe in. That is what ISKCON, Muslims and Christians are doing today.

 

I respect your thoughts and likewise you should respect others. Because unity in diversity is what we need now for peace in this world of ever exploding nature.

[Guest guest]

 

I entirely agree with you, I don't know Vedas, but I do know little bit of Thirukural. Anyway, as a Dravidian, I tend to be more inclined to Thirukural and Thirumurai than Vedas. But I humbly disagree that the greatness of Thirukural implies Valluvar derived ideas from Vedas. Now this sounds Dogmatic.We all know that the history of Tamil and Sanskrit are lost in antiquity, so no point ascertaining superiority of one over the other.I respect both cultures, religions and languages equally.

[ranga]

Dear Shaivite,

 

You are from tamilnadu it seems.I am a smartha(iyer) by birth but a stringent Vishnu devotee.We never insult Shiva -- for he is a Mahajanaa very great Bhagavata.If somone insults Shiva,simply conclude that he is not a Vaishnava.

But I verily accept that in Srirangam and other places,some unwanted elements degrade Shiva like this.(they not only degrade Shiva but has created a partition between Vada Kalai Vaishnavas and Then Kalai Vaishnavas).Neverthless please dont come to this hasty conclusion that all Vaishnavites are intolerant.

 

The quality of equanimity is not there because it is a fact we say.All fingers are not of same height.Everyone is unique and why expect equality? But I accept if somebody hurted without respect he is verily a sinner.(but this does not include great devotees on either side of Shiva or Vishnu who sometimes hate other Gods because they are genuine in their action and very highly evolved.If you have heard of Karaikal Ammaiyar and certain nayanmars they have openly disregarded Vishnu but neverthless as I said their purity burns the conflicts.It also exists among Alwars but we are not eligible to comment upon them)

 

"Shaivites, are made to appear very uncivilzed, hot tempered and ignorant of scripture, but they still don't go about insulting other religions and gods" These words and phrases like Dravidan nature show that you are affected by some pre-conceived notion.Who said Shaivites appear uncivilized and hot tempered? Shaivites are not all ignorant of scriptures.

 

Hence I request you to enjoy the bliss of Alwars bhakthi literature and of Nayanmars also and sing Hari's glories without treating Vaishnavas as arrogant.

 

I take the privilege to address you on behalf of Vaishnavas not to confuse about disrespect.A true Vaishnava is humbler than the blade of the grass.If somebody claims a Vaishnavite and abuse Shiva surely he is a fake.

 

But argument is always there because everyone cannot accept Advaita.While arguing comparison and all will be there but we dont compare ourselves with Shiva for he is surely powerful than all jivatmas.

 

I invite to the bhakthi culture which we are enjoying for centuries after Ramanuja's bhakthi revolution.You ignore this comparison part if it acts as a huddle to your devotion to Vishnu.Because you will miss a lot many nice things in Vishnu devotion life.

 

Thankyou for raising this point!!!!!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"A true Vaishnava is humbler than the blade of the grass.If somebody claims a Vaishnavite and abuse Shiva surely he is a fake"

 

For all you know the 'shaivite' writer might have considered you as an arrogant person, referring to another thread.

 

Who are you to comment on behalf of true vaishnavites and that they are humbler than grass. I on behalf of all vaishnavas am ordering you right now to do the drama for you to announce to the world as follows:

 

"Myself, an aspiring vaishnavite, has caused vaishnava aparadha by insulting other, and am extremely feeling the pain right now about it. I shall be more discreet in sharing my views hence forth."

 

Vaishnavas sure beat the humbleness of the blades-of-grass at drama. Like plastic slippers, the vasihnavas can soon give rashes to hurt the feet and cause one to slip to hurt himself when it's wet with rain water.

[Guest guest]

I request fellow shaivites to exhibit tolerance in the face of persistant attacks. Counter attack will not change the attitude of our misguided friends, it will only strengthen their resolve to resort to more scathfull techniques. We can only inculcate our pious philosophies by setting a example ourselves. There is no equivalent to love and compassion as is advocated by our great shaiva adiyaargal.

 

[Guest guest]

"I now don't believe that veda is delivered by god, if so, how could the same god have delivered a philosophically different bible?

Vedas and other holy scriptures are just brilliant guidelines written by great scholars to help us attain high moral standards.

In that sense, I have greater respect for Thirukural, its secular and non-partisan nature is timeless. "

 

The problem is you have no idea what the basis for "delivered by God" means. Most people don't, and therefore they say, "how can such a scripture be delivered by God? Sounds like man wrote it, therefore there is no God". Foolish statements such as this are the result when you do not understand what God is, and how he "delivers" his messages.

 

These sacred scriptures are not written by God, they are written by man. But they are DELIVERED by God, man simply writes them down as he hears them. And he hears these through his realization of the Self. Through the process of yoga often, of some form, bhakti, karma, jnana, etc. Some forms of yoga are faster than others in helping you realize the Self, and see God.

 

And who says that the Bible is philosophically different? Traditional Christian interpretation says the Bible is philosophically different, but have you actually READ the Bible without being biased by the Christian interpretations?

 

There's a Gnostic form of Christianity that very closely resembles Hinduism.

 

You go to www.near-death.com and Christians there even say the traditional Christian interpretations are WAY off, and the truth is closer to the Gnostic interpretations of the Bible, and thus, closer to some strains of Hindu thought (again, you have to understand there are MANY strains of Hindu thought, but the one that I believe is closest to truth lies in Monism or advaita, or maybe vishishtadvaita).

 

All religious scriptures are valid, because they all try to help you form a connection with God, the Self that is in you, that connects everything, and is timeless and immortal.

 

To discount the Vedas as simply codes of conduct and nothing more is just plain wrong, and this is where you are in plain error.

 

There's nothing wrong with being secular, but if you are, you should at least keep from insulting things you don't know about, and you clearly do not know what real religion is and its purpose. Too few do unfortunately, in my opinion.

 

[Guest guest]

If you don't have any scriptures then how did you get knowleage from ?????

 

Hindusim have survived today because of its scriptures, vedas,Gita,puranas,upanisads, Ramayana and the epic Mahabaratha. withouts these, Hindusim would have been dead long ago, Like Most Pagan religions of ancient times.

 

Read yout facts first.

 

 

Hey Barney, how do you know that Sakthi(female) is Brahman, show me scriptural quotations.

[Guest guest]

"There's nothing wrong with being secular, but if you are, you should at least keep from insulting things you don't know about, and you clearly do not know what real religion is and its purpose. Too few do unfortunately, in my opinion."

 

This is exactly the problem, "too few know", I accept that scriptures are not handed over by god in literal sense, but people who realized god tried to put their experiences to writing. But unfortunately, our scriptures are thousands of years old and in that span lot many so called scholars had chance to tamper with it and insert their own ego into existing scriptures.

Thus the real truth is totally hidden within the veils put upon by intellectuals.

This is exactly what Vallalar says.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I repeat the message I posted in different thread in support of the opinion I expressed in the previous message.

 

“You will reach the Divinity if you try very hard to do it! Pray, meditate and have devotion to God; thus all the veils that had been maintaining hidden the True Knowledge will fall. Transcend the teachings of Vedas, Puranas and other Sacred Scriptures that you have heard or read; because these have hidden the True Nature of the Self by means of human attributes causing that people considere these as the true aspects of God. The one who hid the Truth in this way was very skillful therefore until now nobody has been humanly capable to discover the deceit; the door closed has not been still open. Don't depend on sacred books of any class; they aren't going to speak you of God with direct and clear terms. Change your consideration towards the knowledge of the Scriptures; because of the great confusion that exists in them, they cannot manifest the Divinity in the matter. Without reaching the Complete Realization the Divinity will not be able to be known, therefore not only God should be seen but also felt. This is the truth! Aspire to it! The Divinity should be experienced by each one, therefore without this personal experience will not be possible to know fully God and to love him”.

 

-Vallalar

 

[Guest guest]

Your point is well addressed. We cannot paint everyone with the same brush. Tolerance or respect for other's view are determined by the predominance of gunas. That does not mean that one cannot or should not change one's attitue.I have no problem with Vishnu or Allah. When i visit Vishnu's altar, to me that is God. But i automatically say Om Namah Shivaya. I can think of Vishnu's avatar and his wonderfull appearance with Discus and mace and still say Om Namah Shivaya or Om namah Vasudaveya without feeling that i am praising or praying anything other than Him.

 

The same goes to Devi.

It is concentration of bhakti that matters and the lord himself will show the way.

[Guest guest]

What is Sakti ?is Sakti a terrible force ?Sakti is the saguna brahman while parabrahman is nirguna brahman or that without attributes or beyond attributes. Because the mind cannot conceptualise a nirguna brahman, he is worshipped as a saguna or that which is manifest and with attributes. The primary manifestation is in the form of creation(rajas), preservation( sattva) and destruction(tamas)Saguna brahman is a personal aspect of god and with attributes.

And that my friend is Sakti- the prakriti, the power of brahman.Prakriti and brahman are not two seperate entities but a differenation is being made for our us to conceptualise Him in his simplest form..

And because creation is seen as that born, Sakti is known as AdiSakti or universal mother.

[ranga]

"I request fellow shaivites to exhibit tolerance in the face of persistant attacks. Counter attack will not change the attitude of our misguided friends, it will only strengthen their resolve.........."

 

Who is attacking you Mr. Shaivite? I came forward to clarify certain things to you.But it seems your basic perception and assumption itself is afficted severly.And you are creating a scene as if every vaishnava is a rascal using filty language.I am not angry at you but I really feel bad at this society which cannot tolerate a unique path different from your Advaita.Shiva Adiyaargal never prescribed equating jivas to God and when we bring forth certain valid points you people get irritated like anything and instead of directly answering adopt such principles of indirectly attacking,making criticism etc.

[ranga]

"Vaishnavas sure beat the humbleness of the blades-of-grass at drama. Like plastic slippers, the vasihnavas can soon give rashes to hurt the feet and cause one to slip to hurt himself when it's wet with rain water. "

 

Let it be I am a fanatic idiot.But then why you write the above words addressing entire Vaishnava community? It means you are attacking entire Vaishnavism for a single person like me arguing something(may be right or wrong).Isn't it?

 

What a logic!!Strange indeed!!!!!!!

 

"For all you know the 'shaivite' writer might have considered you as an arrogant person, referring to another thread. "

 

In which thread I showed Arrogancy? Can you come up with particular words? And considering me an arrogant(assume) why Shaivite should post a thread with title "Vaishnavaa Intolerance". Does he assume like I am a representative of Vaishnavas? Then why should he generalize my so called arrogance to entire Vaishanvism?

 

And it seems you people are prepared for a fight.Please note we are the followers of Peaceful Ramanuja whose disciple was blinded by a Shaiva Chola king for adopting Vaishnavism.Ramanuja did not burn the whole chola kingdom nor called Shaivites cruel.Its not our way always.Please understand.We respect Shiva and Shakthi more than you pseudo people do.In the name of Advaita you dissolve our very old vedic heritage and austerities.But we answer everypoint with dignity,respect and scriputural referrence.

 

Please dont have pre-conceived notion on anybody may it be christianity,ISKCON,ISLAM etc.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ranga,

 

I have great regard for Ramanuja Acharya.He let a very peacefull life and advocated non-violence against animals by strictly following vegetarianism. But he definitely advocated violance against humans, though not explicitely, he advocated violance implicitely by glorifying scriptures that inturn glorify violance and war.

 

Is Krishna just a deified king?

 

Diefy - A legendary man raised to stature of god by followers.

 

Deification - Authorization of worship of legendary men. Meaning state sponsered temple construction and worship protocols.

 

 

Deification is very common in barbarian civilization. By barbarian, I mean civilizations that sponsor hero worship and glorify war and conquests.

 

For example, ancient romans were known for deifying their legendary emperors.

 

During reign of Augustus Ceaser, Julius Ceaser was deified and temples were constructed for worship of the dead king.

 

There is ample linguistic evidences to suggest that Mahabaratha was compiled at around 400 B.C. while Bagavat Gita was compiled at around 200 A.D.

 

My point is that Rama and Krishna was ancient warrior Aryan invaders who where admired for their great conquests and deified by the warring Aryan tribes.

 

I sincerely appeal for the enlightened minds to realize this ultimate truth and see god in love instead of in man made stories and folklores

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is my submission to you. I don't agree with you that you are being indirectly attacked and not directly answered.

 

Yes, I agree with you that it is wrong to attack an entire vaishnavite community for one person and also wrong to attack one person for an entire community. Same holds good with regards to generalizing opionions.

 

I disagree with your assumption that vaishnavites answer everypoint with dignity. I think advaiths are a better example of respecting other communities like christianity and islam, as is symbolised by the tolerance of the larger Indian community.

 

 

Let's assume that a community appears to you as very graceful, very nice-nice, very orthodox, very successful, very influential & very dignified. And let's assume that you want to identify yourself with the community. That's good. But do not be under the wrong assumption that you KNOW exactly the reason WHY the community is appearing to you so nice and dignified. Similarly, You don't be under the assumption that you KNOW exactly WHY your iyer family did not appear as graceful,..as nice...and as dignified etc. This is the first step to surrendering to god.

 

 

Advaitha is purely for the individual level, after one is tired of such pondering at community-level perceptions. Advaitha offers the passport to be a universal being.

[ranga]

"My point is that Rama and Krishna was ancient warrior Aryan invaders who where admired for their great conquests and deified by the warring Aryan tribes.

 

I sincerely appeal for the enlightened minds to realize this ultimate truth and see god in love instead of in man made stories and folklores"

 

Sir -- you and my humble self varies very largely.For you calling Krishna and Ramachandra as mere legendary kings is very sweet.But for we Vaishnavas they are none other than Vishnu the Supreme.In Rama I never see violence but see strength and patience at the same place.He is our Lord more than anything.We simply depend on the mercy of these two great Purnavataras and chant their holy names.

 

You speak about Vallalar,Adiyaars and all.We respect and accept you believes as true.But this type of misdirecting other's believes is very unfortunate.

 

You say we degrade Shiva but you have gone to the extent of underestimating the Vishnu's main mission taking avatars among human beings and enlighten us.

 

It is better we bid farewell for it is good for you who like to stay away from Vishnu and his glorious Rama avatar.

 

Sir -- one day or other I am sure you will learn about the Bhajana Sampradaya and appreciate his glories with tears in eyes.

 

Wish you all the very best and farewell forever.

 

 

[ranga]

Sir,

 

Please register a name.Otherwise I cannot answer with proper link.

 

Now, our philosophy is very simple Sir. We are enjoying Bhakthi Rasam in Dasya bhava and chant Hari's names.We offer plants and fruits to Him and happily eat the remnants as Maha Prasadam.We follow Veg and avoid Violence in all our endeavours.We believe every word of our Acharyas and Gita.We take part joyfully in Gita Govindam and other bhajans of great devotees like Jayadev Goswami,Meerbai,Batrachal Ramadas etc.

 

We enjoy reading pastimes of Ramachandra and Krishna.

 

We always say Vishnu is the one and only one Supreme.

 

It is only others who come to us first to disprove this or in a manner like "How or why you say Vishnu is supreme".Even the topic Vishnu the ultimate is started by a Shaktha devotee.When challenged,we support(it is very natural to do so)our arguments by illustrations and logical ways also(tamasik and tantric comparisons of devi worship etc).

 

When arguement is started there is no other go than to compare and contrast.But it can never mean I am greater than Shiva.I am nothing in front of him.Because he is very secret associate of Vishnu and more or less a destructive form of Vishnu.

 

Hence when want to argue refer Linga purana ask for explanation and catch a verse in Gita and challenge us.

But dont divert the topic by going into socio-religious area and family traditions.

 

Advaita has to accommodate all religions and say everyone is God because it is their philosophy(fate you can call).

 

But we always say everybody is different.We never say pseudo equalism the same thing our politicians use in material world we dont want to artifically use in spiritual realm.

 

Many thanks........

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ranga,

 

<In Rama I never see violence but see strength and patience at the same place.>

 

You are an extremely cultured and civilized person, hence you pocess the ability to seperate good from bad.

This was how Rama and Krishna were seen by the Indian populace for centuries until the advent of militant hinduism in the form of Hare Krishna and BJP.

 

If all people have the wisdom to seperate good from bad, then we would not have seen the hatred towards other religion and other philosophies.

 

But if you take every word in scriptures in their literal sense, we are bound to travel towards path to destruction.

 

I'm very sorry if I had sent a wrong message and hurt your sentiments.

[Guest guest]

Thank you.

 

Talking about pseudo stuff, here is my submission to you. I consider the following as hights of psuedo thinking

 

-Krishna is saguna and nirguna which has been concluded by vaishnavas as a clarity of thought is purely by hype and nothing else. This is psuedo. BTW don't bother quoting BG regarding this.

 

-Spiritual realm is psuedo to quote even without the realization of the spirituality of Jiva.

 

- Transcendental relationship funda is psuedo and used richly by vaishnavas to hype around. BTW this funda is not quite quoted in vedic scriptures.

 

 

 

[ranga]

"Spiritual realm is psuedo

This is psuedo

Transcendental relationship funda is psuedo "

 

This is psuedo,that is psuedo.Everything is Psuedo.Whatever and whoever you dont like,it is psuedo.Whatever you speculate and misinterpret very offensively as homosexuality is very real.Isnit it?Very good logic and very good speculation.

 

And for all these the title is "Vaishnavite Intolerance".Actually it should have been "Intolerant towards Vaishnavas"