Hindus and Muslims same?

[bhaktajoy]

EDITORIAL

October 5, 2001 VNN6910 Comment on this story

 

Muslim-Hindu Peace Plan

 

BY ISA DAS

 

EDITORIAL, Oct 5 (VNN) — The Muslim-Hindu Peace Plan based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada

 

The desire to prevent World War III and bring peace to the world is most likely the inner mood of most of us today. To do that we need to come to a common understanding of religious terminology and beliefs.

 

For example most of us have no idea that the name Allah comes from the Hebrew letter Alef, our A, in the English alphabet.

 

This simple point contains enough information for every Christian, Jew and Hindu to accept Allah as a name of God.

 

I will explain further, in the "Old Testament" which Jewish people call the 5 books of Moses, God explains that He is the beginning to the end. This same idea is expressed in the New Testament. Revelation 22:13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. This English usage of Alpha is based on the Hebrew Alef. Also in the Hindu (Vedic) scripture, Bagavad Gita, Krishna says "of letters I am A."

 

Has God sent so many messengers, each with a different message? Is He sitting in the Garden of Eden laughing at us? I think not! We have twisted His message based on our own material desire, creating our own Hell on Earth.

 

The objection we find from our Muslim brothers and sisters today, comes from the desire to bring the word back to God and His ways. We find this mood in our Jewish-Christian tradition also. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

 

This lack of disciple, this foolish rush of insane materialism is what every deeply religious person objects to, no matter which faith he or she is coming from. We can take good example from our Amish brothers and Hindu (Vedic) sages.

 

An error of modern society and religion is to identify the body as the self. The Bhagavad-Gita clearly explains that we should see and accept the spiritual essence (the soul) of each living being as spiritually equal. There it is said, "The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle Brahman, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcast]." [bagavad Gita 5.18]

 

How does the learned sage see every living entity with equal vision? He sees the spirit soul within the heart of each of God's creations. He understands that although living forms may appear different, those appearances are only the external coverings of the soul, and that spiritually we are all equal.

 

A careful analysis shows that all problems result from our first mistake of identifying the body as the self. If we identify ourselves by race, religion and ethnic group we will then suffer or enjoy the results of that identity, but the fact is we are spiritually equal and the bodily identity that we accept is both temporary and insignificant compared to our eternal spiritual identity. We suffer due to birth, disease, old age and death; we need not identify with the body, which is being afflicted by these difficulties.

 

If everyone understood and acted on the level of the soul rather than the body, the world's problems would practically cease. Understanding the difference between matter and spirit, and that God is the controller of all things, is the essence of knowledge.

 

It is natural that when we become overwhelmed by difficulties, we become aware of our dependence on God.

 

Unfortunately, due to our deep attachment to materialism, we are drawn to perceive religion in much the same manner, as we perceive ordinary social activities. That is, we become attached to identifying with the external or social side of religion, while we forget its essence-loving service to God.

 

Our modern use of the word religion, expresses an external alterable faith, while the Sanskrit world dharma, implies an internal or essential eternal relationship with God. Our religion or faith can change but the soul's relationship with God is eternal. For example, I may claim that I am a Christian today, but I may adopt the practices of a Hindu or of a Jew tomorrow. However, whatever faith you my follow, the essence of that faith is loving service to God.

 

We must understand that our Muslim brothers and sisters who have come to understand the true message of Allah accept all of us as children of God based on this verse from the Koran.

 

2.62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

 

We should also understand that as a nation, nay as a human race if we do not come to follow God's laws and develop our love for Him and His creation, our future is all to clear.

 

For Our Lord says: Isaiah 46: I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

 

Thank You and God's Blessings

William Glick (Isa das)

http://www.equalsouls.org

 

 

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[bhaktajoy]

We must impart knowledge and love of Krsna,more and more,so in next birth they will not suffer or be freed altogether.

 

I can only imagine how horribly people are suffering all over the world(including Kashmir).

 

Srila Prabhupada says "Thus a godless civilization becomes the source of all calamities." from krsna book ch4.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that following the teachings of Christ very carefully

was most appropriate for Christians. However, he also told Christians that they

should immediately close all the slaughterhouses and start chanting the names

of God. In other words, Prabhupada wouldn't tolerate any perversions from followers

of other paths either. Prabhupada did say that Allah, Jehovah, etc were also

conceptions of Krishna, but he always said that the Supreme Person was undoubtedly

Krishna, and he distinguished between Krishna (the perfect understanding of the

Absolute) and the devas (who are also conceptions of the Absolute for neophytes, etc).

Furthermore, Prabhupada strongly rejected impersonalism, since Krishna also says

that impersonalists have slow progress and their methods are troublesome (12.5)

 

"He was traveling around the world and requesting people to chant the holy name of God. Once while in Tehran, Iran Srila Prabhupada was challenged by one Muslim: "Why should we chant the name of Krishna we have Allah's name?" Srila Prabhupada answered: "No, no. We are not forcing you to chant Krishna's name, you chant Allah's name but do it sincerely." Everyone in the room was satisfied with such a perfect answer. So this is the great example of uniting different communities."

 

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0001/WD16-5285.html

 

RELIGION=COMMON SENSE+KNOWLEDGE+LOVE

 

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 04-13-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 04-13-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 04-13-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

A "Muslim" is "one who submits to God."

 

Scriptures say God is love.We have got practical experience that love is not exclusive it is universal,everywhere it is,reflection of spiritual rasa.

 

In "Perfect questions Perfect answers" Prabhupada says we give God names according to his qualities.

 

I think their religion is not false 3rd class it may be but not false.Where ever the word "God" comes up it's our beloved Krsna.Similarly when christians insult Krsna they do it to Jesus,innocent children of God...what can be done?

 

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 04-13-2002).]

[leyh]

Hi Sushil:

 

I am not saying I am Hanuman, but we have to tackle these demons (Muslims)

There might be demons found in the ranks of those who profess themselves to be Muslims,but that does not mean that all Muslims are demons.Islam is not a monolithic entity,and there are so many different kinds of Muslims --- the nominal Muslim,the pious Muslim,the liberal Muslim,the Fundamentalist Muslim,etc.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 04-13-2002).]

[sushil_kanoria]

Hari Bol Leyh,

Come to India, & I will take you for ride, in all the muslim dominated area.

I won't say anything, you will say, 99.99% of the muslims are demons, or worst then that.

 

I will tell you one incident, when I was in Louisville, U.S.

I was working there for GE Appliances.

One of my indian collegue was happened to be a muslim, was close to me. Whenever he used to go to the toilet, he used to clean his genitals with the tissue paper(As prescribed in their religion) & used to throw that paper in the urinal rather than throwing in the litter box & just due to that urinal used to get blocked.

one day my American collegue, Dave, asked me sushil you know who is doing such type of foolish act. I knew that, but just India & indian should not get maligled, i said I don't know who has done.

Then he asked me, sushil what do you call a foolish in your language.

I said, "BEVKUFF"

He said, the person who is doing such act is much more than that.

 

So you can see, they are notorious everywhere, for their any sort of act.

 

Just go through the speech given by our Prime Minister of India, who used to support the muslims a bit, but now his patience has also gone please go through it....

 

An outburst by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee against Islamic extremism marks a throwback to the hardline jargon of BJP, belying the PM's image as a moderate among hardliners.

 

In his remarks at the party national executive here that shocked the media and much of the public, Vajpayee condemned what he suggested was a Muslim disposition towards intolerance.

 

"Hindus stay in millions but never hurt others' religious feelings. But whereever Muslims are there, they do not want to stay peacefully," Vajpayee said late Friday.

 

"It is happening in Indonesia, Malaysia, everywhere. They (Muslims) stay by threatening and frightening others."

 

But while warning about Islamic militancy around the world, Vajpayee said his party was committed to India's secular traditions.

 

"We have always been secular. We don't believe in religious violence or religious fundamentalism," Vajpayee said.

 

The remarks mark a sharp departure in tone for Vajpayee, who earlier this month said he was ashamed as he met Muslims who have been made refugees from communal clashes in Gujarat.

 

He then urged the government of Gujarat, to treat its citizens without discrimination.

 

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, accused by opposition parties and even some BJP partners of turning a blind eye to the mass killings of Muslims, Friday offered his resignation, but it was rejected by the BJP executive council.

 

Vajpayee Friday again condemned the violence in Gujarat, but put new emphasis on Godhra carnage.

 

"We should not forget how it all began," Vajpayee told his party. "Who started the fire?"

 

The BJP urged Modi to seek a fresh mandate instead of resigning.

 

Grassroot party workers meeting here said the strategy was simple. "Gujarat today is burning with strong Hindutva (Hindu revivalist) passions. Make the best of it. Why not go to the electorate and get their clear mandate?" said a BJP legislative assembly member.

 

"Why not relaunch the Hindutva wave from Gujarat, which is anyway claimed as the laboratory of Hindutva by the media and the opposition alike?"

 

 

Hari Hari Bol,

Sushil

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by sushil_kanoria:

Hari Bol Leyh,

Come to India, & I will take you for ride, in all the muslim dominated area.

I won't say anything, you will say, 99.99% of the muslims are demons, or worst then that.

 

I will tell you one incident, when I was in Louisville, U.S.

I was working there for GE Appliances.

One of my indian collegue was happened to be a muslim, was close to me. Whenever he used to go to the toilet, he used to clean his genitals with the tissue paper(As prescribed in their religion) & used to throw that paper in the urinal rather than throwing in the litter box & just due to that urinal used to get blocked.

one day my American collegue, Dave, asked me sushil you know who is doing such type of foolish act. I knew that, but just India & indian should not get maligled, i said I don't know who has done.

Then he asked me, sushil what do you call a foolish in your language.

I said, "BEVKUFF"

He said, the person who is doing such act is much more than that.

 

So you can see, they are notorious everywhere, for their any sort of act.

 

Just go through the speech given by our Prime Minister of India, who used to support the muslims a bit, but now his patience has also gone please go through it....

 

An outburst by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee against Islamic extremism marks a throwback to the hardline jargon of BJP, belying the PM's image as a moderate among hardliners.

 

In his remarks at the party national executive here that shocked the media and much of the public, Vajpayee condemned what he suggested was a Muslim disposition towards intolerance.

 

"Hindus stay in millions but never hurt others' religious feelings. But whereever Muslims are there, they do not want to stay peacefully," Vajpayee said late Friday.

 

"It is happening in Indonesia, Malaysia, everywhere. They (Muslims) stay by threatening and frightening others."

 

But while warning about Islamic militancy around the world, Vajpayee said his party was committed to India's secular traditions.

 

"We have always been secular. We don't believe in religious violence or religious fundamentalism," Vajpayee said.

 

The remarks mark a sharp departure in tone for Vajpayee, who earlier this month said he was ashamed as he met Muslims who have been made refugees from communal clashes in Gujarat.

 

He then urged the government of Gujarat, to treat its citizens without discrimination.

 

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, accused by opposition parties and even some BJP partners of turning a blind eye to the mass killings of Muslims, Friday offered his resignation, but it was rejected by the BJP executive council.

 

Vajpayee Friday again condemned the violence in Gujarat, but put new emphasis on Godhra carnage.

 

"We should not forget how it all began," Vajpayee told his party. "Who started the fire?"

 

The BJP urged Modi to seek a fresh mandate instead of resigning.

 

Grassroot party workers meeting here said the strategy was simple. "Gujarat today is burning with strong Hindutva (Hindu revivalist) passions. Make the best of it. Why not go to the electorate and get their clear mandate?" said a BJP legislative assembly member.

 

"Why not relaunch the Hindutva wave from Gujarat, which is anyway claimed as the laboratory of Hindutva by the media and the opposition alike?"

 

 

Hari Hari Bol,

Sushil

Haribol Sushil:

 

Come to Singapore and you can take a look around.There are many Muslims here and they don't go around "threatening and frightening others". I have travelled extensively in Malaysia (I have some relatives there) and I have yet to experience any violence from the Muslims.I have many Muslim friends and some of them have demonstrated great kindness.

 

Some time ago,I witnessed a Muslim woman comforting a non-Muslim boy (If I remember correctly it was a Eurasian boy) who had apparently gotten his head knocked.The boy was crying and the Muslim woman was rubbing his head in the presence of the boy's mother.

 

While I'm not denying that many who profess to be Muslims have committed many demonic acts,the same can be said of those who profess to be Buddhists Christians,Hindus,Jews etc.Shall we also say that Christians,Hindus,Buddhists etc are demons too? To say that Muslims are demons is just too sweeping a statement.

 

Among Muslims,there are many who are sincere devotees of God and if we risk committing offences to devotees of God if we view them as belonging to the same category as those who have perpetuated demonic acts in the name of religion.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 04-13-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Leyh Prabhuji,

Hari Bol! AGTSP! PAMHO!

 

If the Muslims are sober in Singapore it is because of the tough laws. Also, don't forget that Singapore has given them a lot of priveleges. Haven't you seen the Muslim prayer room in Singapore airport? Do the Hindus get the same freedom in Singapore? Haven't ISKCON sannyasis been denied transit visa? Muslims wil always remain sober if they get more priveleges than other communities.

 

Malaysia is a Muslim nation, with minority Hindus. So, there is little reason for them to be militant. Even there, many Islamic groups are pressing for Islamic laws.

 

The real problem exists in those countries where Muslims are a sizeable minority - over 8%. That is when Islam raises its violent head.

[Guest guest]

Dont bother me with exceptions. When there are so many muslims, there will be some good ones definitely. The problem is not with muslims but with Islam which teaches violent intolerance. If you clean up Quran, I wonder if it will turn in to a two page book - with just the front and back cover. See, in all these discussions no one has come forward to show that Mohammed did not rape or do cold blooded murder. And Quran does not teach intolerance.

[bhaktajoy]

Dear Ram Prabhuji,

Please accept mu humble obeisances.AGTSP!

 

They cannot understand more than this that's why they are born into such religion.

 

Ok muhammed did such things but now what?What's the use?I know fundamental Islam preaches nonsense.How can it be eradicated?

 

We are devotees here not fighters.My suggestion is we must enlighten our fellow Indians to save Vedic culture not fight some other religion.Demons are everywhere.In this age of quarrel only knowledge and love is needed."I was to suffer 100 times more but Krsna is so merciful."All suffering is due to karma.Clean out karma and there will be peace & happiness.Human form of life is very important we cannot waste our precious time pondering over such issues.Krsna has his plans working,it looks like chaos but it's not.

 

Hope this meets you well.

God bless.

 

 

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Leyh Prabhuji,

Hari Bol! AGTSP! PAMHO!

 

If the Muslims are sober in Singapore it is because of the tough laws. Also, don't forget that Singapore has given them a lot of priveleges. Haven't you seen the Muslim prayer room in Singapore airport? Do the Hindus get the same freedom in Singapore? Haven't ISKCON sannyasis been denied transit visa? Muslims wil always remain sober if they get more priveleges than other communities.

 

Malaysia is a Muslim nation, with minority Hindus. So, there is little reason for them to be militant. Even there, many Islamic groups are pressing for Islamic laws.

 

The real problem exists in those countries where Muslims are a sizeable minority - over 8%. That is when Islam raises its violent head.

Ram Prabhu:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Do the Hindus get the same freedom in Singapore? Haven't ISKCON sannyasis been denied transit visa?

I'm not sure about the denial of transit visas for ISKCON sannyasis. In Singapore,I have had the good fortune to have met two ISKCON sannyasis HH Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami and HH Bhanu Swami.

 

 

[Tarun]

Bv SwAmI PrabhupAd was denied entrance into Singapur.

Leader told/reasoned:

"U will spoil our youth. We want them to become strong, austere for international business."

God's Law is clear: Lo Tirtzach = "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

So anyone who kills man, animal, even a tree is punishable.

One tree is worth so many dozens humans.

One cow supplies brainfood =hot milk for so many humans.

Even lactating women replenish with cow's milk.

So if an atheist, buddhist, christian, hindu, jain, jew, muslim, sikh, socialist kills, specially a cow, tree or human, he/she must be punished.

River, land, air polluters too.

We can keep those jails full. Full of the REAL criminals.

We hear their voices everyday. Easy to recognize & round up.

Respect for life. Right to life in a wholistic sense.

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by leyh:

I'm not sure about the denial of transit visas for ISKCON sannyasis. In Singapore,I have had the good fortune to have met two ISKCON sannyasis HH Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami and HH Bhanu Swami.

 

Tarunji quoted the case when Srila Prabhupad was denied visa in Singapore. The same is mentioned in Lilamruta too. Sure, some sannyasis are given visa, but there are more restrictions on a Hindu than on a Muslim in Singapore. Last time I went there, I was clad in dhoti and sported a tilak. When I asked for a transit visa, they asked many questions - whether I was going there for religious purpose, whether I had any religious book in my sack.. I couldn't help notice that Muslims who wore lungi, cap and carried a Quran were granted transit visa without a question. There are certainly more restrictions on Hindus in Singapore than on Muslims. The same in Malaysia. It is just that we Hindus don't make an issue of it. Muslims invariably start a riot if they aren't given special priveleges.

 

This even applies to the USA. Only 6 Muslims died in the WTC attack, as compared to 184 Hindus from India alone. Yet, during the religious meeting presided over by George Bush, there wasn't a Hindu priest, though they had Christian, Jewish and Muslim priests. Hindus kept quiet. I wonder if the Muslims would have been silent had they been left out.

 

I would like to believe that Muslims are not fanatical. But such beliefs turn out to be short lived each time I see a sticker on a car driven by a Muslim in the USA, that reads:

 

There is only one God - Allah. He has no Father and no Son. Of course, they are just quoting the Quran!!!

 

[theist]

karthik,

 

I believe part of the problem in the USA is that hinduism is still viewed as a hodge podge of worship anything and everything, and the monotheistic side of it is not known.

 

 

We have work to do.

 

president@whitehouse.gov

 

The White House

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

Washington DC 20500

 

fax: 202-456-2461

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-14-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

Yes theist,even Indians are bewildered what to speak of foreigners Great hidden knowledge.You're right we have got work to do.

 

 

[abhi_the_great]

I was very heavy in my previous postings earlier, but nowadays have moderated myself following leyh's advice.

 

If we inspect Indian history, we can see that the Hindus clinged together when they knew that the Muslims wd go all out to kill them. It made Hindus stronger, as a grp, in one-way or other. I am sure this is positively working again on the Hindu psych, the atrocities by the muslims. Its bringing them together. Maybe its bringing the world also together - A COMMON ENEMY - ISLAM!!

 

Coming back, what really disturbed the faith of the Hindus in their religion is the projection of science and technology as higher than religion, seeing the sophisticated White Sahibs following a different religion. The style associated with the Western kind of religion. The schools, hospitals and charity work which they dedicate with fervor - all has acted on the hindu minds. Among other things were also the projecting of Hindu form of worship as aboriginal and the conspiracy to rewrite the Hindu scriptures by Max Muller and the Aryan Invasion theory. Actually there have been intellectual conspiracy to destroy the religion, thanks to the strong Acaryas who kept on appearing to pull it back again and again.

 

Strategy 1:

By using force, we make Islam stronger and come together. India will invite global denouncing and trouncing.

 

Strategy 2:

It is not very Vaishnavic, but I feel there is a planned mispropaganda and misinformation being spread about Islam. Indeed there are enough weapons the Muslims have given the world to use against them. It depends on how a shrewd person can use these weapons to disect the religion, piece by piece. Patience and planning will succeed to a great extend.

 

The churches are using this strategy of slowly poisoning the masses against their own religion and culture within and opening schools and hospitals without as their strategy. It has worked wonders in India. Again, this is more possible in a loosley knit hindu society than a tightly knit Islamic society.

 

I wonder why Mahaprahu himself did not destroy Islam... maybe he wanted to leave the service to his servants or maybe he just wanted us to preach to them intelligently. I go for the latter after reading the feedback from most Vaishnavas. Killing all muslims cannot guarantee any new peace era. Someone will always be there to disturb.

 

But, when it comes to the question of protecting ones religion or ones family or ones country, one can slay such an agressor and still not incur sins.

 

We need to develope Vaishnava Kshatriyas, well trained in use of weapons and martial arts, who can protect the society from external attacks. They shd be adept in politics, economics and diplomacy too.

 

There are even plans to assasinate the Sankaracharya of Kanchi and his security had to be increased. This is the state of affairs!! I am not sure how much place does peace have, I am not personally convinced of peace alone as a strategy.

 

The first strategy shd be non-violent in portraying Islam as a religion lacking in all fronts - philosophically, intellectually, practically. Afterall, all the pain they take is to enjoy with 72 virgins and 28 boys in jannat!

[karthik_v]

Theist:

 

I believe part of the problem in the USA is that hinduism is still viewed as a hodge podge of worship anything and everything, and the monotheistic side of it is not known.

 

Even if Hinduism is polytheistic, that is no reason to leave out the religion practised by 20% of the world population. It simply proves that those who make the most noise are heard.

 

Abhi the great:

 

We need to develope Vaishnava Kshatriyas, well trained in use of weapons and martial arts, who can protect the society from external attacks. They shd be adept in politics, economics and diplomacy too.

 

I agree totally. I am all for Vaisnavas going to the gym and staying fit. I would even suggest that right after mangala arati they should head off to gym, work out for an hour and then attend SB class. If not, they should be denied prasadam. I am sick and tired of devotees who stupidly claim that this body is worthless and neglect it. Also, there should be a clean plan at training our devotees in science, management etc., so that can be a voice to be heard.

 

I agree with your observations on Islam. First, we should expose Islam in a sophisticated way. We should also create an atmosphere where the Muslims find it hard to believe in Islam without being ridiculed. That will take care of Islam. You take away its protective sheath, the religion will crumble.

 

We can start with some nice Muslim jokes. I will post a couple of them later today.

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

I agree totally. I am all for Vaisnavas going to the gym and staying fit. I would even suggest that right after mangala arati they should head off to gym, work out for an hour and then attend SB class. If not, they should be denied prasadam. I am sick and tired of devotees who stupidly claim that this body is worthless and neglect it. Also, there should be a clean plan at training our devotees in science, management etc., so that can be a voice to be heard.

 

Yes, the same rules cannot be applied to all the masses. There are people with the mentality of Brahmanas, they might consider the body worthless - and its ok (but few are hypocrites). Those with the mentality of Kshatriyas, they shd be encouraged to develope the body and learn martial arts and politics & management. Vaishyas shd learn management and business. Shudras shd develope skills like computer programming, manufacturing etc. which are greatly useful for the society at large.

 

All 4 stratas shd be positively encouraged to acheive a peaceful material life and an exciting spiritual life.

 

Wow, I am dreaming about a Varnashrama University!!

[Guest guest]

A.C. Bhaktivedanta stated that all the major religions are bonafide.

The problem with the Islamic world,is not Islam,or the Quran,it is the Sharia,Islamic law.

Sharia,is the dominant force in the Islamic world,It is created, and enforced, by poltically and economically motivated persons.

The Quran was related by Muhammed,after his death,Immediatly there was a power struggle,and Islam splintered into various factions,the motivation was power and wealth.

This has continued till the present.Islamic law forces the masses to conform to the desires of the power elite,be they oil tycoons,or Mullahs,or Sheiks.

These power elites, abuse the masses,indoctrinating them, for the power base they give.

This rule of terror,like the cutting off of the hand of a thief,or the stoning to death of an adulterer,even in thought,is not Islamic.

Islam is based on the old testament,like the new testament of the Christians,it preaches an eye for an eye,not that you kill an adulterer,or maim a thief.

This is the real problem,the twisting of Islam,in the service of the power elite's,it has been going on since the Death of Muhammed.

The solution is to expose Sharia,as un-islamic,to expose the exploitation of the masses for profit and power.

The Quran is about the brotherhood of man,it has been twisted into the exact opposite,now because of the dominance of Sharia,and the ability of it to be changed,Islam is now about the imprisonment of common sense,and mercy.

[karthik_v]

Dear Shiva,

Hare Krishna!

 

This rule of terror,like the cutting off of the hand of a thief,or the stoning to death of an adulterer,even in thought,is not Islamic.

 

I am not sure that I will agree with you. Here is the Quranic verse that advocates cutting off the hands of the thief.

 

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power. [Quran 5:38]

 

Of course, there is a line of argument that here the verse only requires marking the hands of the thief and not actually amputating it. I read this argument in submission.org, but haven't come across the same being put forth by any other theistic Muslim theologian.

 

Here is the Quranic verse on adultery. Of course, Quran itself recommends only flogging:

 

The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [Quran 24:2]

 

Even that is very cruel, in my opinion. but Hadith [Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 6.79, Narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar] does confirm that Mohammad himself ordered that the adulterers be stoned to death:

 

The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them." He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them, "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

 

And there are quite a few Quranic verses that do confirm that Mohammad was very intolerant and oppressive. I will give some samples:

 

Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time. [Quran 33:60]

 

They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy). [Quran 33:61]

 

I think that is a lot of evidence that violence has its roots in Islam [both Quran and Hadith]. It is not that the fanatics have found their inspiration elsewhere.

[theist]

Wow what a contrast with that of Christ.

 

Similar situation and He said "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone."

 

The accusors left feeling ashamed.And the One among them that was without sin had no interest in picking up a stone.

 

This is the grace of the Lord that fits so well with Lord Caitanya's mood.

[karthik_v]

Sri Aurobindo in a speech on March 7, 1924:

 

"What is wanted is some new religious movement among the Mahomedans which would remodel their religion and change the stamp of their temperament. For instance, Bahaism in Persia which has given quite a different stamp to their temperament".

 

Did someone in Arabia say Hari Bol!?

 

[theist]

Hådayänanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?

Prabhupäda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kñatriya, or the brähmaëas, kñatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gétä, what are the symptoms of brähmaëa, what is the symptoms of kñatriya. The kñatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.

Hådayänanda: Oh.

Prabhupäda: Yes. And vaiçyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.

 

I always thought the Sikhs were a good example in this regard.They would hire a martial arts instructor and the whole class would be Sikhs.

 

Firearm classes should not be neglected.But the mentality should be judged somehow before issuing some bhakta a gun.

 

The world is getting tougher and we must be ready for anything.

[leyh]

This is Srila Prabhupada's verdict on Hindu-Muslim conflict:

 

'During the Hindu-Muslim riots in India,some Hindus would go to the Moslem mosque and would break statues and images of God,and the Moslems would recipocrate in like manner. In this way they were both thinking,"We've killed the Hindu God.We've killed the Moslem God,etc."Similarly,when Gandhi was leading his resisance movement,many Indians would go to the street and destroy the mailboxes and in this way think that they were destroying the government postal service.People of such mentality are not jnanis.The religious wars between the Hindus and Moslems and Christians and non-Christians were all conducted on the basis of ignorance.One who is in knowledge knows that God is one;He cannot be Moslem,Hindu or Christian.'(His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,On the Way to Krsna, Chapter 4)

 

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by leyh:

This is Srila Prabhupada's verdict on Hindu-Muslim conflict:

 

'During the Hindu-Muslim riots in India,some Hindus would go to the Moslem mosque and would break statues and images of God,and the Moslems would recipocrate in like manner.

 

There is neither a statue nor an image in a mosque. How, then, could the Hindus have destroyed them? Getting a little factual, every riot before 1947 [the period in question], started in Moslem dominated areas. They were not initiated by the Hindus. Hindus were just reacting. I agree that those who kill aren't jnanis, but pray tell me as to how you would react when a marauding horde of Muslims raid your town and kill your children and rape your women? Will you chant Hare Krishna as your womenfolk are being raped? Yes, even chanting in those moments will help if we are pure. After all, Krishna helped Draupadi. But, none of us is pure. So, let us not pretend. Even Arjuna wasn't pure. That is why Krishna told him to fight the war - He didn't ask him to chant on the battlefield.

 

GV sannyasis have done several great things, but I have to disagree on this count. As Sri Aurobindo said, when Moslems are all out to attack the Hindus, the Hindus need to organize and fight back. The world understands the language of force and respects it.

 

Sorry to sound a little harsh. But I don't keep quiet when somebody tries to equate the reactions of the Hindus to the offensive actions of the Moslems and tries to generalize. Gandhi used to do that. I don't respect him for that. Pacifism is not at all the sign of a jnani. Many non-Vaishnava gurus like Sri Aurobindo, Swami Vivekananda and Swami Dayananda Saraswati have displayed the courage to speak up and stand up against the offensive Moslems. I respect them for that.

[karthik_v]

To fight or not to fight?

 

Sri Aurobindo, in a letter written on September 13, 1936:

 

No doubt, hatred and cursing are not the proper attitude. It is true also that to look upon all things and all people with a calm and clear vision, to be uninvolved and impartial in one's judgments is a quite proper yogic attitude. A condition of perfect samata [equanimity] can be established in which one sees all as equal, friends and enemies included, and is not disturbed by what men do or by what happens. The question is whether this is all that is demanded from us. If so, then the general attitude will be of a neutral indifference to everything. But the Gita, which strongly insists on a perfect and absolute samata, goes on to say, “Fight, destroy the adversary, conquer.” If there is no kind of general action wanted, no loyalty to Truth as against Falsehood except for one's personal sadhana, no will for the Truth to conquer, then the samata of indifference will suffice. But here there is a work to be done, a Truth to be established against which immense forces are arrayed, invisible forces which can use visible things and persons and actions for their instruments. If one is among the disciples, the seekers of this Truth, one has to take sides for the Truth, to stand against the forces that attack it and seek to stifle it. Arjuna wanted not to stand for either side, to refuse any action of hostility even against assailants; Sri Krishna, who insisted so much on samata, strongly rebuked his attitude and insisted equally on his fighting the adversary. “Have samata,” he said, “and seeing clearly the Truth, fight.” Therefore to take sides with the Truth and to refuse to concede anything to the Falsehood that attacks, to be unflinchingly loyal and against the hostiles and the attackers, is not inconsistent with equality.... It is a spiritual battle inward and outward; by neutrality and compromise or even passivity one may allow the enemy force to pass and crush down the Truth and its children. If you look at it from this point, you will see that if the inner spiritual equality is right, the active loyalty and firm taking of sides is as right, and the two cannot be incompatible.