Hindus and Muslims same?

[Dharma]

I would think that a practical and inexpensive response would be to education on how conflicting idealogies swirling about in the minds of each and every individual is erupting in conflict and violence in the outside world.

 

It is easy to speak in terms of others, but not so easy to look at ourselves. If one takes a look at the ideals he houses (such as love, no anger, kindness, honesty, fidelity, moderation in food or drink) whatever and then looks at the pain experienced when he fails in these ideals, what choice does one have but to suffer & to try and inflict these ideals upon another-like children, or spouses, or towns, or rulers, or other countries. Painful things these ideals. So much conflict when they collide. Most painful and apt to lead to conflict are those of religion.

 

If there is awareness of what is going on within, at the internal conflict at an individual level, the desire to inflict one's own ideals, how can anyone expect peace in any village, any city, any schoolhouse, any highway, any church or any part of the globe?

 

If at war with oneself, one's family, one's business associates why worry so much about Moslems? Seems so far from "home". Seems logical to work on the root.

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 05-07-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Dharma:

If at war with oneself, one's family, one's business associates why worry so much about Moslems? Seems so far from "home". Seems logical to work on the root.

If you don't fight the evils of Islam, of which Muslims are one, they will finish you off through many a riot. Then you lose any oppurtunity to be at war with oneself, one's family, one's business associates So, if you want to preserve that freedom, you still need to fight Islam.

 

[shivaji]

The views of people like 'shiva' and 'leyh', who believe that islam is a bona fide religion are misguided. Hinduism today faces no greater threat than that posed by islam. Advocating Gandhian style ahimsa is admirable but you have to be realistic. It will not protect you when your culture, heritage, land, women, human rights are being abused and pillaged by muslims. Ideally, we would all love to live in harmony with our fellow human beings, but this will not be possible with certain individuals who state that there is no religion but theirs, and that all others will go to Hell. Shed your idealism and naivety, and be realistic.

[Guest guest]

 

That is a misguided sentiment.

The Islamic community is varied ,there is no one Islamic belief system or culture.

The problem is with the leadership of the islamic world,they need to be dealt with.

 

The oil tycoons,dictators,mullahs,sheiks,etc.

They need to have their feet held to the fire ,and be held responsible by the world community for the exploitation of the masses,by using religious sentiment as a base of support for their economic and political agendas.

This is reality,the schools and media need to be be changed ,the priests need to change,and the leaders need to change.

Poverty breeds fanaticism,as an escape from misery,they will think "If I please Allah,I can get out of hellish life,and go to heaven".

This needs to change,oil profits need to be shared,and poverty eradicated.

This along with a serious change of rhetoric coming from the priestly caste ,is needed.

Simply demonizing the mostly poverty stricken,ignorant masses,is counter productive.

[gHari]

Islam has now destroyed itself. No sensible person on the planet will consider switching to this religion, and as a religion it offers nothing that Christianity doesn't. Were it not for its demonic force it would have died eons ago. Now it will die; or be killed. The modern world will not tolerate jihad anywhere. The desert will be nuked if necessary to save humanity from this plague.

 

The jihadists in Pakistan have said in their statement of purpose that they will rid India of all non-Muslim religion. However, modern India is ready to stop all further Muslim atrocities. The Ram temple is only the beginning of the backlash of the hatred India holds towards the demonic past of the Muslim hordes. I expect to see the entire world unite to destroy all the jihad sentiments currently seething in Pakistan over the next few years. No Muslim in the world will be safe if the terror continues. They will all be sent back to the desert to await the bomb.

 

Islam is dead.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by gHari:

Islam has now destroyed itself. No sensible person on the planet will consider switching to this religion, and as a religion it offers nothing that Christianity doesn't. Were it not for its demonic force it would have died eons ago. Now it will die; or be killed. The modern world will not tolerate jihad anywhere. The desert will be nuked if necessary to save humanity from this plague.

 

The jihadists in Pakistan have said in their statement of purpose that they will rid India of all non-Muslim religion. However, modern India is ready to stop all further Muslim atrocities. The Ram temple is only the beginning of the backlash of the hatred India holds towards the demonic past of the Muslim hordes. I expect to see the entire world unite to destroy all the jihad sentiments currently seething in Pakistan over the next few years. No Muslim in the world will be safe if the terror continues. They will all be sent back to the desert to await the bomb.

 

Islam is dead.

Hari Hari Bol! A beautiful and succint post. In fact, I can foresee the day when the world will find an alternative to oil and all the bearded Muslims will go back to their parched desert riding on camel back and back to eating dates and abducting each other's wife [and of course dreaming of 72 heuris in the heaven]

[shivaji]

Shiva said:

'Poverty breeds fanaticism,as an escape from misery,they will think "If

I please Allah,I can get out of hellish life,and go to heaven"'.

 

Now this is very misguided. Why make excuses for these fanatics? If poverty breeds fanaticism, then India throughout the ages would have been a hotbead of terrorism and fanatics. The bottom line is that islam breeds fanaticism. You state that many aspects of islamic society should be changed such as oil profits, imams, schools etc. But you never once mention that islam is the root of this problem. Even if these aspects are changed, this will not solve the problem until islam (the religion) is wiped out.

 

I have no problem with peaceful muslims - but they peace-loving in spite of islam, not because of islam.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by shivaji:

Shiva said:

'Poverty breeds fanaticism,as an escape from misery,they will think "If

I please Allah,I can get out of hellish life,and go to heaven"'.

 

Now this is very misguided. Why make excuses for these fanatics? If poverty breeds fanaticism, then India throughout the ages would have been a hotbead of terrorism and fanatics. The bottom line is that islam breeds fanaticism. You state that many aspects of islamic society should be changed such as oil profits, imams, schools etc. But you never once mention that islam is the root of this problem. Even if these aspects are changed, this will not solve the problem until islam (the religion) is wiped out.

 

I have no problem with peaceful muslims - but they peace-loving in spite of islam, not because of islam.

Nice points. The poorest states in India are Orissa and Rajasthan. Both are Hindu states. They lose thousands every year to starvation death, cyclones and draught. When was it last that these Hindus ever became terrorists. One of the wealthiest and most subsidised states is Kashmir. Also, the one that produces most terrorists. The problem is Islam, not poverty.

 

[Guest guest]

you are wrong,the terrorists have a political agenda,they use fanatics who have been indoctrinated for the purpose of carrying out political agendas.

What terrorist is acting out of a solely religious reason?

none. They want power shifted from the status quo to themselves,religion is used by the political terrorists as a tool to gain followers.

What are the palestinians doing,they want their land and power back,it is not about religion.

What are the Al-queda doing?

their complaint is western support for Saudi aristocracy,who are keeping the wealth and power for themselves,they are all the same religion,they are fighting over power and money.

The terrorists in Kashmir,they are Pakistani supported and originated,why?

The pakistanis in league with china(maoist trouble in nepal) want control of Kashmir,for political,military,and economic reasons,religion is a red herring.

The Chinese desire control over the entire himalayan region,they are close with Pakistan,and together they want to take control ,as they have done in Tibet,now they are trying in Nepal,and Kashmir.

Chechnyan terrorists want independence,its not about religion,its about land,power,and money.

Sri lankan terrorists want independence,even though they are hindu,and the Singhalese are Buddhist,it is once again about politics and power and land,not religion.

Even in ireland,the real issue is political,about independence.

Religion,any religion,is used by those with political,economic,and military motives, to create a class of fanatics,who will do their bidding.

 

[abhi_the_great]

Money and power is the ultimate goal, no doubt. But, the scripture supports the killing of all the kafirs!!! This is what makes the religion very sacred .

 

The Tamils are no using the Hindu scriptures as an excuse or rather as a duty to kill. As long as a scripture allows such killing all the simple rank followers will not be even slightly guilty of their wrongful acts.

[leyh]

Originally posted by shivaji:

The views of people like 'shiva' and 'leyh', who believe that islam is a bona fide religion are misguided. Hinduism today faces no greater threat than that posed by islam. Advocating Gandhian style ahimsa is admirable but you have to be realistic. It will not protect you when your culture, heritage, land, women, human rights are being abused and pillaged by muslims. Ideally, we would all love to live in harmony with our fellow human beings, but this will not be possible with certain individuals who state that there is no religion but theirs, and that all others will go to Hell. Shed your idealism and naivety, and be realistic.

Hi Shivaji:

 

I accept Islam as a bona-fide religious process because His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,the great saintly personality who opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge,accepts it as such.

 

‘So the Hare Krsna mantra is not sectarian. Because we are chanting these three names --- Hare, Krsna, and Rama --- someone may think, “These are Hindu names. Why should we chant these Hindu names?” There are some sectarian people who may think like that. But Lord Caitanya says, “It doesn’t matter. If you have some other bona fide name of God, you can chant that. But chant God’s name.” That is the instruction of this Krsna consciousness movement. So do not think that this movement is trying to convert you from Christian to Hindu. Remain a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim. It doesn’t matter. But if you really want to perfect your life, then try to develop your dormant love for God. That is the perfection of life.” (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Lecture at Boston’s Northeastern University in the summer of 1969)

 

It is thosewho see Islam as a monolithic entity and Muslims being the same all over the world that need to be realistic.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-09-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-09-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by leyh:

Hi Shivaji:

 

I accept Islam as a bona-fide religious process because His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,the great saintly personality who opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge,accepts it as such.

 

‘So the Hare Krsna mantra is not sectarian. Because we are chanting these three names --- Hare, Krsna, and Rama --- someone may think, “These are Hindu names. Why should we chant these Hindu names?” There are some sectarian people who may think like that. But Lord Caitanya says, “It doesn’t matter. If you have some other bona fide name of God, you can chant that. But chant God’s name.” That is the instruction of this Krsna consciousness movement. So do not think that this movement is trying to convert you from Christian to Hindu. Remain a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim. It doesn’t matter. But if you really want to perfect your life, then try to develop your dormant love for God. That is the perfection of life.” (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Lecture at Boston’s Northeastern University in the summer of 1969)

 

It is thosewho see Islam as a monolithic entity and Muslims being the same all over the world that need to be realistic.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-09-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-09-2002).]

Can one remain a mayavadi and develop dormant love for God ? There was a advaitin called Thyagayarajar who sang some of the most wonderful kirtans in classic style which are sung even today. Legend says that Rama Himself appeared before Him and there are so many instances of intense devotion in his life.

 

Also, how about one being a saivite and being a perfect devotee. There are nayanmars who have completely dedicated their life to Lord Siva. Each one of their lives is an expression of intense selfless love to Lord Siva. So, so if we consider them as foolish demigod worshippers who are not eligible for liberation, on what sastric grounds do we consider that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are bonafide ?

 

The sastras are apoureshya and anaadi. That is the only reason we have to accept them on faith. And we have to accept the guru's words on faith but if they contradict the verdict of the sastras, then we have to raise the questions. Truth is more powerful than sentiment.

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by ram:

Can one remain a mayavadi and develop dormant love for God ? There was a advaitin called Thyagayarajar who sang some of the most wonderful kirtans in classic style which are sung even today. Legend says that Rama Himself appeared before Him and there are so many instances of intense devotion in his life.

 

Also, how about one being a saivite and being a perfect devotee. There are nayanmars who have completely dedicated their life to Lord Siva. Each one of their lives is an expression of intense selfless love to Lord Siva. So, so if we consider them as foolish demigod worshippers who are not eligible for liberation, on what sastric grounds do we consider that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are bonafide ?

 

The sastras are apoureshya and anaadi. That is the only reason we have to accept them on faith. And we have to accept the guru's words on faith but if they contradict the verdict of the sastras, then we have to raise the questions. Truth is more powerful than sentiment.

Hi ram:

 

The Vedic system of guru, shastra and sadhu is one that is in harmony with each other, and a bona-fide guru's words will never contradict the verdict of the sastras, for everything the guru says can be backed up by scripture and is not against the teachings of the saintly personalities of the disciplic succession.

 

So if one accepts that Srila Prabhupada is a bona-fide guru,then one will have to accept his conclusion that Islam is a bona-fide religious process.When he says "remain a Muslim", he was definitely sanctioning Islam as a bona-fide religion.However,if one does not accept the authority of Srila Prabhupada,it is a different matter altogether.

 

I cannot prove that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are bonafide on shastric grounds as these three religions arose considerably later then the Vedic culture,however,I accept Srila Prabhupada as an authentic embodiment of this culture,and if he sanctions Islam as a religion,then I accept it,as a matter of faith in him, and accompanied by a critical analysis of Islam.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-10-2002).]

[sha]

Originally posted by shiva:

you are wrong,the terrorists have a political agenda,they use fanatics who have been indoctrinated for the purpose of carrying out political agendas.

What terrorist is acting out of a solely religious reason?

none. They want power shifted from the status quo to themselves,religion is used by the political terrorists as a tool to gain followers.

What are the palestinians doing,they want their land and power back,it is not about religion.

What are the Al-queda doing?

their complaint is western support for Saudi aristocracy,who are keeping the wealth and power for themselves,they are all the same religion,they are fighting over power and money.

The terrorists in Kashmir,they are Pakistani supported and originated,why?

The pakistanis in league with china(maoist trouble in nepal) want control of Kashmir,for political,military,and economic reasons,religion is a red herring.

The Chinese desire control over the entire himalayan region,they are close with Pakistan,and together they want to take control ,as they have done in Tibet,now they are trying in Nepal,and Kashmir.

Chechnyan terrorists want independence,its not about religion,its about land,power,and money.

Sri lankan terrorists want independence,even though they are hindu,and the Singhalese are Buddhist,it is once again about politics and power and land,not religion.

Even in ireland,the real issue is political,about independence.

Religion,any religion,is used by those with political,economic,and military motives, to create a class of fanatics,who will do their bidding.

Pretty good analysis!<font color=#cccccc>

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-12-2002).]

[Guest guest]

To answer ram, Srila Prabhupada had a mission, to spread the Vedic conlusions throughout the entire world.

He was successfull.

Those interested in being successfull should study his method .

The point he was making when he said, other religions are bona fide, is that to be successfull in spreading the Vedic version, you have to show respect.

Mahaprabhu himself said "you must be ready to offer respect to others,and be humble like a blade of grass".

This is a tried and true methodology.

How beneficial other faiths are is not the point, giving respect to other faiths is the point.

If you disrespect other religious faiths in a derogatory, non -philosophical manner, then you will not be able to gain the respect from their adherents.

It is as simple as that.

Also you must always consider Krsnas words "everyone follows my path in ALL respects", and " I am directing the wanderings of all living entities".

[karthik_v]

I think Ram's question has not been answered. His question is simple and straight. Let me paraphrase it again:

 

Were the great Shaivite saints of the past like the Nayanmars not bonafide?

 

I would like to add my own question to this. Some of you get very touchy if Islam is criticized. Doesn't the same rule apply when Advaita or Shaivism is criticized? Is it not strange that we accept Allah as same as Krsna but without batting an eye-lid claim that Shiva is just a demi god?

[Guest guest]

 

There are differnt types of "shiva"

Sada shiva is an incarnation of the personality of Godhead.

Shiva can refer to a position attained when the living entity has attained liberation from material consciousness.

And therefore is considered a demi-god,or deva.

All Vaisnavas who are free from materialistic consciousness,are considered demi-gods,or shiva.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by shiva:

There are differnt types of "shiva"

Sada shiva is an incarnation of the personality of Godhead.

Shiva can refer to a position attained when the living entity has attained liberation from material consciousness.

And therefore is considered a demi-god,or deva.

All Vaisnavas who are free from materialistic consciousness,are considered demi-gods,or shiva.

Shiva prabhuji,

 

What is the source of your information, especially on different types of Shiva and that Shiva is an incarnation and that we all can become Shiva?

 

When you say that Shiva is an incarnation, do you mean that He is an incarnation of Krishna?

 

[Guest guest]

Go back to an earlier thread,the sankaracarya one,back a page or two,on the second page of that thread at the top,there is a nice long answer to your question,by ghari.

[Guest guest]

 

And then a couple of comments after that one, is another by sha, that is very nice,and is actually the long one,not gharis.

[theist]

On the PBS show Frontline which aired last night they did a two hour show on Islam.It was very good and you may want to watch for it.

 

I really feel sorry for a lot of the Muslims that are being falsley portrayed by these fanatics.They need to speak out forcefully against the fanatics.

 

That said the so-called jihadis should be exterminated where ever they are active.Hunted down like the dogs they are.From Kashmir to the Phillipines to Chechnia(sp) to Palestine, all they do is murder.

 

 

[karthik_v]

Dear Shiva prabhuji,

 

I hope you are referring to this thread:

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001210-2.html

 

I read through that. Here is the summary: As per Brahma Samhita, Shiva and Krishna are like curd and milk. As per Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Shiva is from the left half of Krishna. Does it mean that They are equal? Later on SB goes on to declare that Shiva is the greatest devotee of Krishna and hence a Vaishnava.

 

Now, none of them seem to say that Shiva is a demi-god. Even if they do, we should not forget that we are only relying on Puranas. For example, I have heard that Shiva purana also written by Vyasa Deva, declares that Shiva is Supreme. I have heard the same w.r.t. Skanda purana too. I haven't read either. My point is that these puranas give often contradictory pictures. So, on what basis do you say that Shiva is a demi god?

 

I have read the English translation of Svetasvatara Upanisad and it says that Shiva is the ultimate. Please note that Svetasvatara Upanisad is one of the 13 principal upanishads accepted by all schools. If you want I can look up to the exact verses. So, are we not directly contradicting the upanishads when we claim that Shiva is a demi god?

 

You haven't answered me as to why Allah or Christ become Gods but Shiva only a demi god? Also why is that an advaitin who preaches the same worship of Narayana is to be abhorred while a Muslim whose Quran advocates destroying the temples is welcome. To be very honest, I have always wondered as to why Srila Prabhupad spent so much time attacking Advaitins, even though great advaitin sannyasis like Swami Chandrasekharendra Saraswati were his contemporaries, but at the same time visited Vatican (which considers sanatana dharma as heathen) and waited on the Pope. When the Pope gave some excuse for not meeting him, he still met a secretary. I have always wondered as to why the Praramacarya didn't deserve this courtesy a beef-eating Pope did. That too a Pope who justified the beatification of Hitler's Pope.

 

Please don't get me wrong. I am not anti-ISKCON. In fact, this is the only stream I try to follow. I have a lot of reverence for SP. But some of my questions have not been answered by anyone.

[sha]

When you say that Shiva is an incarnation, do you mean that He is an incarnation of Krishna?

forwarded from another board:

When Lord Krishna and Radharani played the magnificent Divine dance

of 'Maha Rasa Lila', Shankar Bhagavan entered the Lila as a Gopi.

 

Thus He became popular with the Name Gopi-Isvara.

 

There is a temple in Vrindavan for Lord Gopisvara, Whom all

Vrajavasis worship with love.

Lord Siva Himself is the Master of Music. Worshippers of Nada Brahma,

the Sound Incarnate of Lord, accept Him as their Guru.

 

Some Rasik Saints say Lord Siva is Lord Krishna's 'Flute'.

 

They are also right in the sense, that because the 'Flute' is

Krishna's 'Priya Sakhi' and Shivaji too has accepted to become His

Sweetheart Gopi, any way.

 

This verse from 'Brahma-Samhita- 56', which is very dear to Gauranga

Mahaprabhu says that - " ..vaMzI priyasakhI.."

 

The verse 45 of Sri Brahma Samhitam also says that Lord Shiva is

another Divine manifestation of Lord Krishna :

 

"kSIraM yathA dadhi vikAra vizeSa yogAt

saJjAyate na hi tataH pRthag asti hetoH

yaH zambhutAm api tathA samupaiti kAryAd

govindam AdipuruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi"

 

Meaning- Just as milk itself gets transformed into curd (yogurt), but

yet they both maintain different attributes and are neither SAME nor

DIFFERENT from each other, so also I adore my Beloved primeveal Lord

Govinda Who has transformed Himself (vikaara) into Lord Shiva for the

performance of Divine Lilas.

 

Here are some more excerpts, taken from Brahma Vaivarta Purana in

relation to Lord Shiva.

 

"Lord Siva is said to be a portion of Lord Krishna and arise out of

the left side of Krshna's body.

 

"vAmarddhAGgo mahAdevo

dakSiNo gopikApatiH"

 

The left half became Siva and the right became the Husband of Gopis.

He is dearly loved by Krishna.

The BVP says it is sin to slander Siva, Who is dearer to Krishna than

His own life.

Krishna Himself declares:

 

"Among my favorites Brahma is dear to Me.

Lakshmi, ever residing on my chest, is dearer than Brahma.

Radha is yet dearer, and my devotees are dearer still.

Dearest of all is Shankara (Siva); no one is dearer than He.

 

My heart resides with my devotees, My life with Radha.

My Self with Sankara, who is dearer than My life."

 

(Bkh, Pkh, KJkh of BVP)

 

Those who are the Excellant Portions of Krishna are intensely devoted

to Him.

It is not surprising then that Siva, a Portion of Krishna, is His

Devotee.

We find frequent references to Siva as the BEST OF VAISNAVAS.

 

 

Accordingly, Siva seeks to become the Servant of Krishna and

confesses His own dependence upon the latter.

Siva is often portrayed as in constant MEDITATION ON KRISHNA,

WEEPING, DANCING with ECSTACY of devotion.

Of all those who know Krishna, it is Siva, the BEST OF VAISNAVAS

(Bhagavatam), who knows Him best.

 

Thus, by Siva's Grace a votary may attain faith in Krishna.

 

Siva in fact states that those who oppress Vaisnavas will be punished

by Krishna and that the hearts of non-vaisnavas are impure He further

exclaims that Vaisnavas are DEARER to HIM than HIS OWN followers.

 

Krishna, Who is filled with Love for His devotees, has made Siva

equal to Himself on account of Siva's DEEP Devotion.

Krishna asserts that Siva is fully His EQUAL in splendour, knoweledge

and virtue.

Further, the Divine Forms or Bodies (Sat-Chit-Ananda vigrahas) of

Siva and Krishna alone are Eternal, not those of other beings.

 

It is through Siva's Devotion to Krishna, finally, not MERE EQUALITY,

but actual IDENTITY is apparently attained:

 

'svapne jAgaraNe zazvath kRSNa dhyAna rataH

zivaH

yathA kRSNA stathA zambhur na bhedo mAdhavezayoH"

 

(Brahma Vaivarta Purana-Prakriti khanda II. 56. 61)

 

"Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in MEDITATION of

KRISHNA.

AS IS KRISHNA, SO IS SAMBHU; THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between MADHAVA

and ISA"

 

'yo hariH sa zivaH sAkSAd yaH zivaH sa svayaM hariH

ye tayor bhedamAti sthan narakAya bhave nnaraH"

 

(Visnu purana.5.33.46)

 

Whoever is Lord Hari, He alone is Lord Shiva.

Whoever is manifesting as Lord Shiva is Lord Hari Himself.

If any human being mistakes Their Identity percieving differences

he/she surely goes to hell.

 

In Vishnu Purana also, VISHNU declares HIS NON DIFFERENCE from SIVA.

(V.P.5.33.46-48)

 

Here we find, full justification for the statement in the Narada

PancaRatra concerning the BVP as teaching the NON DIFFERENCE between

HARI AND HARA.

 

Often we are told that whoever does not worship the Linga of Siva

commits a great sin and goes to hell.

 

Krishna says to Siva:

"Who, having constructed Your linga of clay, joined with Prakriti, at

a place of piligrimage, worships it a thousand times with devotion...

He shall rejoice with Me in GOLOKA for crore of Kalpas.

 

And who worships at that place a lakh of lingas, with proper

offerings, Shall not fall from GOLOKA; He shall be equal to US.

 

Saivaite devotional practices lead, then, to the ultimate goal of the

Vaisnavas."

 

As said in Brahma-Samhita the relationship of Lord Siva and Lord

Govinda are compared to that of milk and yogurt.

Milk itself becomes TRANSFORMED into yogurt.

 

They both are composed of the same ORIGINAL ingredients, but they

PERFORM different functions.

 

"yathA ziva mayo viSNuH

zivasya hRdayaM viSNur viSNoz

ca hRdayaM zivaH"

 

(Skanda Purana)

 

Similarly Lord Siva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Siva, in Siva's heart

Vishnu resides and Vishnu's heart is the abode of Siva.

 

In Caitanya Caritamrita, Mahaprabhu's Eternal Associate Sri

Advaitacarya is said to be Lord Sadashiva, who always says,

 

"I am the servant of Lord Krishna."

 

Intoxicated by Ecstatic Love for Krishna, He becomes overwhelmed and

incessantly dances without clothing and sings about Lord Krishna's

qualities and pastimes.

 

"nimnagAnAM yathA gaMgA devAnAm acyuto yathA

vaiSNavAnAM yathA zambhuH purANAnAm idaM tathA

kSetrANAM caiva sarveSAM yathA kAzI hyonuttamA

tathA purANa vratAnAM zrI mad bhAgavataM dvijAH"

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 12.13.17)

 

Just as the celestial Ganges is the most Holy among all the flowing

rivers,

just as Lord Krishna is the Supreme among all Divine Personalties,

just as Lord Siva is the most Exalted Lover of Vishnu,

just as the City of Kasi is the most Sacred among all Holy places,

Srimad Bhagavatam is also the most fulfilling vow as well as the most

elevated Scripture among all other auspicious Puranas.

 

Prayers to Lord Shiva-

 

"jagadguro namastubhyaM

zivAya zivadAya ca

yogIndrANAm ca yogIndra

gurUNAM gurave namaH"

 

"Salutations unto Thee, O Teacher of the universe.

Thou art the Lord auspicious and the giver of bliss,

the foremost of the perfect Yogis,

the Teacher of teachers. Salutations unto Thee."

 

(BVP 4.30.43)

 

Another prayer for Shivaji says-

 

"haste 'kSa mAlA hRdi kRSNa tattvaM

jihvAgra bhAge vara rAma mantraM

yan mastake kezava pAda tirthaM

zivaM 'mahA bhAgavatAM' namAmi"

 

Meaning-

I salute to the Supreme Devotee, (Maha Bhagavata)

in Whose hand is the a-ksha (A to Z) japamaala,

in Whose heart is the reservoir of Divine Essence of Lord Krishna,

on Whose tongue is ever residing the Name of His Beloved Rama,

on Whose head is ever flowing Sacred water that washes the Lotus feet

of Lord Keshava.

 

Jai Hari-Hara, Mahaadeva Shambho!

 

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[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-10-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

I really feel sorry for a lot of the Muslims that are being falsley portrayed by these fanatics.They need to speak out forcefully against the fanatics.

I thought of forwarding this to my Kashmiri Pandit friend, who as a 14 year old boy witnessed the beheading of his parents and the rape and murder of his 12 year old sister in Srinagar years ago. As the Muslim terrorists raped his sister and as he tried saving her only to be beaten unconscious, the entire village (95% Muslim) stood there watching silently. Many even rejoiced. Moments later, as he stood weeping over his sister's body, his neighbours told him that his family should have paid heed to sane advice..i.e., asking them to get out of the valley.

 

Then I thought that any justification of Muslims will make him mad.

 

Next time you sympathise with the so-called innocent Muslims, please let me know as to how many Muslims protested when Muslim terrorists bombed Bombay and later Coimbatore. It is easy to pretend that Muslims are sweet as honey, so long as you live light years away from them. May I send you a return ticket to Kashmir? I have travelled extensively in J&K and I can promise that virtually all Muslims are fanatical. All is fine so long as you don't criticize Islam or silently put up with insults to Hinduism.

 

US channels are playing to the gallery for the sake of oil. There is no compulsion on our part to buy into that propaganda.

 

Let me end with a quote from Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel:

 

There seems to be only one tolerant and secular Muslim in India. That is Jawahar Lal Nehru.

 

[theist]

I doubt that SP was in awe of the Pope in any way.However the influencial position held by the Pope in the eyes of so many millions meant that if the Pope could be educated to a deeper understanding then the masses would follow.

 

SP was very tolerant and patient as this account illustrates.He also courtiously stepped past drunks that were blocking the door to his bowery apt. in New York. Humble soul.

 

Advaitins, he refered to also as Mahatmas,but let's be honest in the final analysis they are opposed to Bhakti.