Hindus and Muslims same?

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva is a state of consciousness also.

The devotee fre from mundane awareness,and transcendentally situated,is "shiva".

All of these souls are to be considered devas,the times the sastra refers to shiva as a deva,that meaning is relevant,and to be accepted.

Why did Prabhupada attack the advaitans?

and not the pope, etc?

The followers of vedic religions were not treated the same as others,by Prabhupada.

This was because the other religious followers had no previous contact,with Bhakti.

The Indian yogis are another story.

They have had contact,with the message of Godhead,and have rejected it,as beneath them.

The style of preaching Prabhupada used,was that of pointing out that divine knowledge, after you have come in contact with it,many times and reject it as beneath you,is not going to take you as an inoffensive recipient,as are those who have not heard the Bhagavatam.

Those who decry the message of Bhakti,and pronounce their own limited philosophy as superior have declared war on Bhakti,in a philosophical sense.

The response of Srila Prabhupada to them should be seen as a General in command,his battle plan may be criticized by anyone.

Yet his Victory, is all to obvious for me to state.

 

[theist]

You may be right Karthik.Its true I don't have personal experience living around a large Muslim community.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

You may be right Karthik.Its true I don't have personal experience living around a large Muslim community.

Dear Theist Prabhuji,

 

Sorry if what I wrote hurt you. I shouldn't have used harsh words. I don't think that Muslims are evil, but it is Islam that makes them evil. If you and I become Muslims today, we too would end up as fanatical. I think the real enemy to be tackled is Islam and not Muslims.

 

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by theist:

I doubt that SP was in awe of the Pope in any way.However the influencial position held by the Pope in the eyes of so many millions meant that if the Pope could be educated to a deeper understanding then the masses would follow.

 

SP was very tolerant and patient as this account illustrates.He also courtiously stepped past drunks that were blocking the door to his bowery apt. in New York. Humble soul.

 

Advaitins, he refered to also as Mahatmas,but let's be honest in the final analysis they are opposed to Bhakti.

 

 

I am not suggesting that SP held the pope in awe. But, it is a well established fact that Vatican was responsible for burning the teachings of Jesus and compiling the current Bible. Vatican is avowedly anti-Hindu. If you argur that SP met the pope in the hope of changing him, can't the same apply to Ramakrishna mutt? After all, RKM has quite an influence on many Indians. Or Chinmaya mission or Sai Baba?

 

[karthik_v]

Dear Shiva prabhuji,

 

It is not true that advaitins are anti-Bhakti. If you read the teachings of Kanchi mutt, you will realize that you are wrong. I showed you that Svetasvatara upanishad tells you the very opposite of SB. So, I am not for blindly accepting that Shiva is a demi god. Can you quote better references and establish that? Honestly you haven't convinced me that SP/GV/ISKCON are justified in attacking Shaivism/advaita while glorifying Christianity/Islam.

[theist]

Karthikji,

 

Fear not I was not hurt.But I had to rethink my position.I go back and forth on this one, and really shouldn't form a solid opinion based on my scant information or experience and certainly not from any one TV show.The innocent people portrayed may have been the exception to the rule.

 

Concerning SP he was sent to the English speaking world by Bhaktisiddhanta.And dispite the use of the same scriptures the mayavadis come to a distinctly different conclusion then we do.Christian understanding of God is Vaisnava, albeit at a beginning level.This shows at least a hope that something further could be built upon it.

 

Advaitins are set in their ways and will change only after a long long period.Similar can be said for all those that are overly attached to their religious labels its true.But it was worth a shot.Imagine if the pope just turned vegetarian what effect there would be in the world's karma as so many would take to his example.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-10-2002).]

[theist]

Saw this review of the program I refered to on http://beliefnet.com

 

Attempt To Reveal Many Faces of Islam Is Dry Yet Honest

By John Levesque

Seattle Post-Intelligencer Television Critic

Followers of Islam make up 20 percent of the world's population. A billion people, give or take. Most of them aren't Arabs.If all the Muslims in the world could squeeze into a room, in fact, the Arabs would constitute a minority about the size of the black population in the United States: around 13 percent.

Surprised?

 

This is one of the lingering messages in "Muslims," a "Frontline" documentary airing Thursday on PBS (9 p.m., KCTS/9). It is delivered near the end of two fairly dry hours whose noble aim is to put a more accurate face on Islam. It is delivered by a New Yorker, Yasemin Saib, who was born in Saudi Arabia and moved to the United States with her parents in 1990.

 

Saib is a co-founder of Muslims Against Terrorism, which sprang up five days after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. MAT's mission (available at www.matusa.org): "To stand against those who preach violence and hatred in the name of Islam and to promote peace and understanding through interfaith and intercultural coalition building." Its philosophy: "We are committed to dealing with our fellow human beings in the manner of the Prophet Muhammad, to approach one another with love and understanding, patience and respect, humility and self-criticism, rationality and reasonability, with open hearts and open minds in the pursuit of peace."

 

Ask most Americans to put a face on Islam and I'll bet that face is an Arab who is neither rational nor reasonable.

 

Can't blame us, I suppose, given what we know of the perpetrators of the Sept. 11 attacks.

 

But if non-Arabs fancy themselves as rational and reasonable, it would follow that our hearts and minds are open to programs such as "Muslims."

 

It's not the best "Frontline" ever. It moves like a homework assignment and falls into the trap of playing the sort of background music that feeds all of our negative stereotypes. But it is an honest attempt to show Americans that Muslims, like Christians and Jews, come in all shapes, sizes and political persuasions.

 

 

 

 

[Jagat]

It seems that every day there is a documentary on TV about Muslims. I turn on the radio -- on the local Catholic channel -- and I get an explanation of the five pillars of Islam. Last night, there was a program about Islam in the US on PBS. The CBC has been running stuff on Palestine wall-to-wall for months. TV5, the international French network, had a documentary on the Haj that they have already shown about three times over the last year.

 

Most of this publicity seems to be curious and neutral, rather than negative and sensational. There has never been so much information about Islam available, ever. And most of its positive!

[sha]

Shiva is a state of consciousness also.

The devotee fre from mundane awareness,and transcendentally situated,is "shiva".

All of these souls are to be considered devas,the times the sastra refers to shiva as a deva,that meaning is relevant,and to be accepted.

This is another common misunderstanding of the word 'deva'.

 

Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva are one and identical Divine Personalities.

 

In Vishnu Purana, VISHNU declares HIS NON DIFFERENCE from SIVA.

 

(V.P.5.33.46-48)

 

'yo hariH sa zivaH sAkSAd yaH zivaH sa svayaM hariH

ye tayor bhedamAti sthan narakAya bhave nnaraH"

 

(Visnu purana.5.33.46)

 

Whoever is Lord Hari, He alone is Lord Shiva.

Whoever is manifesting as Lord Shiva is Lord Hari Himself.

If any human being mistakes Their Identity percieving differences

he/she surely goes to hell.

 

"yathA ziva mayo viSNuH

zivasya hRdayaM viSNur viSNoz

ca hRdayaM zivaH"

 

(Skanda Purana)

 

Similarly Lord Siva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Siva, in Siva's heart Vishnu resides and Vishnu's heart is the abode of Siva.

 

All the 60 Divine attributes of Bhagavan are present in both Lords but in Lord Krishna there are 64 attributes (60+4) according to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

I have copied more from another thread:

 

Mahaprabhu gives this teaching to Roopa and Sanatana in Caitanya Caritamritam, Madhya. chapter.23. 82, 83 how those Divine attributes (RASA) are revealed in Krishna.

 

"Apart from these sixty transcendental qualities, Krishna has an additional FOUR transcendental qualities, WHICH ARE NOT EVEN MANIFEST IN PERSONALITY OF NARAYANA.

 

THESE ARE-

 

1. RASA of LILA (LILA-MADHURI) - Krishna is like an ocean filled with waves of Blissful Pastimes THAT EVOKE WONDER WITHIN EVERYONE IN THE THREE WORLDS.

 

2. RASA of MADHURYA (SRINGARARASA-MADHURI)-

In His activities of Conjugal Love, He is always surrounded by His dearmost devotees Who possess UNEQUALED AMOROUS LOVE FOR HIM.

 

3. RASA of DIVINE FLUTE (VENU-MADHURI)- He attracts the minds of all three worlds by the Divine Melodious Vibration of His Flute.

 

4. RASA OF TRANSCENDENTAL BEAUTY (ROOPA-MADHURI)- His Personal beauty and Charm are beyond compare. No one is equal to Him, and no one is greater than Him.

 

Thus the Personality of Godhead astonishes ALL LIVING ENTITIES, BOTH MOVING AND NONMOVING, within the three worlds (including Vishnu and Siva).

HE IS SO BEAUTIFUL THAT HE IS CALLED KRISHNA."

(BRS deals with more, giving explanations and examples in this regard.)

 

C.C. Madhya. 23. 84, 85

 

"Above Narayana, Krishna has these FOUR SPECIFIC TRANSCENDENTAL QUALITIES-

 

His Wonderful Pastimes, an abundence of His amourous Love and wonderful Lovers who are very dear to Him like GOPIS, His wonderful Beauty and the wonderful vibration of His Flute.

 

Lord Krishna is supremely exalted than other Divine Personalities like Lord Siva and Vishnu (with 60 transcendental attributes).

 

He is even more exalted than HIS OWN PERSONAL EXPANSION NARAYANA, due to the fore mentioned FOUR EXCLUSIVE RASAS.

 

In all, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has SIXTYFOUR (sixty + four) Transcendental qualities IN FULL. "

<small><font color=#cccccc>

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-11-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Jagat:

It seems that every day there is a documentary on TV about Muslims. I turn on the radio -- on the local Catholic channel -- and I get an explanation of the five pillars of Islam. Last night, there was a program about Islam in the US on PBS. The CBC has been running stuff on Palestine wall-to-wall for months. TV5, the international French network, had a documentary on the Haj that they have already shown about three times over the last year.

 

Most of this publicity seems to be curious and neutral, rather than negative and sensational. There has never been so much information about Islam available, ever. And most of its positive!

It is called Wahhabi funds from Saudi Arabia, Jagat Prabhuji. How many journalists can resist the temptation of sponsorship by a rich Arab sheikh? How many media barons will let go an oppurtunity to strike a deal with a rich Arab oil rig owner?

[Guest guest]

This is not to discuss the philosophy of gaudiya vaishnavism. If we cannot tolerate the worship of Lord Shiva, then how can we accept the worship of Allah or Jehovah. If we can accept the worship of Allah or Jehova,which have no vedic basis, why cant we accept the worship of Shiva which has sastric basis. Siva is also a name of Krishna as all the names that belong to the Supreme Lord. I am looking for a convincing reply if there is one.

 

My point is that Islam is now a cow killing religion that degrades women and other faiths. It needs to be dealt with an iron hand. And much less, glorified.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-11-2002).]

[sha]

why cant we accept the worship of Shiva which has sastric basis. Siva is also a name of Krishna as all the names that belong to the Supreme Lord.

Here is more to back up your statement regarding the worship of Bhagavan Shankar:

 

1. Puranas have described that the consort of Lord Vishnu, Lakshmi devi herself worshipped Lord Shiva, even offering her own bosom in place of lotus flowers, and thus the 'bael' fruit and tree had become very dear to Shiva.

 

2. Lord Rama also worshipped Shiva at Ramesvara and saints wrote that he too offered his lotus eyes to Shiva as a substitute for lotus flowers.

 

3. Mother Sitadevi worshipped the consort of Lord Shiva, Gauridevi and Shiva before the 'bow breaking' at her 'Swayamvara'.

 

4. Queen Rukmini worshipped Gauridevi, the consort (Svarupa shakti) of Lord Shiva prior to Lord Krishna's arrival at her wedding.

 

5. So did the Gopis of Vraja at Katyayani (Consort of Lord Shiva) Vrata.

 

6. Lord Caitanya had also met his consort Lakshmipriya devi and other maiden performing worship to Lord Shiva on the banks of Ganges and blessed them accordingly proving the oneness of their Lordships.

 

7. Saint Vidyapati also wrote in his poems that Sri Radha herself prayed to Lord Shiva for protection from the 'cupid' and for blessings offering her lotus hands and bosom as a substitute for flowers and fruits.

 

8. In 'Vidagdhamadhavam', Sri Roopa wrote Radhaji going to Gauridevi (consort of Lord Shiva) temple for worship.

 

9. The favorite saint of Mahaprabhu, Jayadeva kaviraja himself prayed to Lord Shiva in 'mangalacarana' of his compositions.

 

Worship of Lord Shiva is a 'bhushana' for all Vaishnavas, so let us not indulge in 'dushana' of Lord Shiva.<small><font color="fefefe">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-11-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Sorry sha,but your understanding of Shiva is a bit off.

Read narayana maharajas remark, on the sankaracarya page, a couple of comments before yours,by ghari.

Also Sridhar Maharaja explains Shiva's position like this..."Shiva", is used for the devotee who is liberated from material consciousness,all devotees who are situated thusly are considered to be Shiva.

Shiva-tattva is different from jiva tattva,and Vishnu tattva.

There are two types of Shiva,one is Sada Shiva and is an incarnation of Maha-Vishnu.

The other Shiva is not Vishnu-Tattva,he is a Jiva who is liberated.

His position is different from the Jiva,yet still he is a Jiva,therfore Shiva-tattva is used to show the difference,otherwise he would be called Vishnu-tattva.

The many verses you give, sometimes have one meaning for the Vishnu-tattva Shiva,and also the same verse can have another meaning for Shiva-tattva.

It sounds confusing,but really it's not.

You must understand first that Shiva-tattva,is a devotee,the greatest vaisnava,this implies that Shiva's realization is the highest.

He has realized his eternal rasa with Radha-Krsna,and is engaged in it.

He understands that Radha is the highest manifestation of the Personality of Godhead.

His position is described by the Brahma-samhita,which was revealed by Mahaprabhu himself,as it contains the highest siddhanta.

Like milk is to yogurt,Krsna is to Shiva,this is Shiva-tattva,not Sada-Shiva,who is Maha-Visnu,a direct expansion from Krsna.

Shiva does the work of Krsna in the material world,we are told.

For Shiva who has realized the very highest knowledge of Bhakti Siddhanta,this has a meaning that is very confidential.

You must understand that Radha is the internal energy of Krsna,the heart of Krsna,that which is inside.

Radha is the enjoying potency,Krsna enjoys through her.

"Radha and Krsna are one and the same person,never make the mistake of thinking otherwise."(A.C. Bhaktivedanta,intro C.C.)

Radha in the highest understanding, is desirous of madhurya-rasa with a real person.

Not that Krsna is not real,just that to her,he is a mirror image,her self,as a boy.

The rasa between them is illusory,and the devotee derives benefit from that.

Her highest desire is shown in the Gita-Govinda of Jayadev.

There Radha is unable to be satisfied by Krsna,because he is absent.

Her most intimate devotees are called upon to quench her desire for Krsna,due to his prolonged absence.

Jayadeva realized these truths and was instructed in Madhurya-lila, by the Goddess of Fortune herself,who incarnated to be his wife.

The Gita-Govinda above all else was Mahaprabhus favorite.

So this is the highest realization,Radha has desire for Madhurya rasa,Krsna is absent,why ,they are one and the same person,and she is unable to derive satisfaction from him,and she turns to her devotee for that.

This is Shiva's position,He is described as being non-different from Krsna,also as Krsna's flute,also he is dearer to Krsna then anybody,also he is the protector of Vraja,and he does the work of Krsna in the material world.

This is Shiva-tattva,not Sada-Shiva.

His consort,Parvati,is an expansion of Radha.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-11-2002).]

[Pritesh01]

What is the definition of Jiivan Mukti in Gaudiiya Vaishnava

philosophy?

[Guest guest]

 

The vedic conception is that when the jiva is situated in his/her constitutional position, as a fish is in an ocean,then that jiva is liberated.

[Guest guest]

 

when you are acting in full consciousness of your eternal position as jiva,free from illusory ,temporary conceptions,then you just may be...a jivan mukti.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-15-2002).]

[Guest guest]

If you have no desire to exploit God's energy for the purpose of gaining fame ,wealth,followers,power,or even liberation itself,then you just might be ...a jivan mukti.

[Guest guest]

 

If you desire only to act in concert with the desire of God,without offense...then you just might be...a jivan mukti.

[Guest guest]

 

Actually Frank Herbert's Dune is much more then just a fictionalized account of Islamic prophesy. His entire Dune series goes into greath exploring Christian and Jewish religious philosphy and also most importantly how religion can be manipulated. There is indeed today a great thirst in the Muslim world for a Maud'ib (Mahdi) and the fullfillment of that prophecy by one who will united all Muslims. Frank Herbert's book "Heretics of Dune" in my opinion is something far far head of its time. The concept of manipulating prophecy and religion by religious experts (in Dune these are the Bene Gesserit) could either bring about great good or great evil. As cultural anthropologist studying Islamic cultures I have pondered the possibilities of this. So far however no powerful government has caught on that through social science experts (anthropology, sociology, psychology) and experts in theology theology, there exists the possibility of developing programs to manipulate religion and theology.

Hopefully nobody in the U.S. Department of Defense will read "Heretics of Dune".

 

Chris

 

[Guest guest]

Modern Islam: A Culture Of Crybabies

 

{Message deleted. Enough "copy and paste" articles against Islam. Future articles will be deleted. - JNDas}

[Guest guest]

 

Hari Bol Audarya lila,

"Aapkee lila to sachmuch aparam bar"

I don't know from which part of the world you come from.

I invite you to come to hyderabad,which is in India, I will just take you to the old city of Hyderabed, there is one mosque called Mecca Mosque, just go there on friday noon, & just see the trailor, then give the statement whether they are demons or not, Every friday the situation is the same, in the name of sermons the head of the mosque will say we have to fight & kill the kafirs(Non-Muslims) & to take part in the jehad.

so when they come out after offering the namaz, they will start throwing the stone at the police & toward the hindus who are just passing through it, So what is it ?? Serving God ?? You can see the same scenario every friday.

See it's very easy to give statements, sitting at one place, but when you go into deep then you will understand, what actually it is.

It's not only in Hyderadad but in the 99% of the mosque present in India.

I ask you one question

In india every one has been given freedom of practising his/her religion, or rather say being a hindu country, muslims are given much more importance than the hindus.

You go to Saudi Arab, you can not enter to that country if you have the deity of hindu GOD, or even a photo of the GOD, what to speak of building a temple there.why ??

because they don't believe in idol worship.

I sincerely advise you to come india & visit the mosqe here on friday, you will come to know what sort of worshiping is going on there.Or in what way they are serving the God.

(By spreading non-violence, so that one can say, yes the age of Kali has arrived, in this way I agree, yes they are serving the GOD.)

 

 

Hari Bol,

Sushil

These people are ignorent and uneducated. Islam is not about hate or killing people, our koran teaches us to respect all other religions. 'You have your religion and i have mine'. Every country and every religion has its good and bad, you cannot tell me that there are no bad hindus in the world and u can not judge a whole religion by a few stupid people who misunderstood the teachings of god. saudi arabia lives under a dictatorship, do u think that if the people had the choice they would choose to live like that? The government dictates that saudi arabia is a muslim country therefore everbody should live under muslim laws. You cannot blame the faults of politics on religion, Egypt for example is a muslim country however people from other religions practice their faith freely and there are churches, temples ect. How many times do we have to say these things? muslims have said it over and over again, islam is not about hate!! it never was and never will be. somebody else wrote that hindu religion gives you freedom, but since when was religion about freedom?? this is where our ideas clash, what is our purpose of being on this earth? our purpose is to worship god and be worthy of heaven. so we have to pray 5 times a day, give money to the poor, fast the month of ramadan and wear decent clothing to cover our bodies, what is so hard about that? look around u to all the blessings god has given us, is this too much for him to ask for?? if we were just put on this earth to live life freely and do as we please, then the whole purpose is gone. why are we here? why arnt we in heaven already? look i dont know much about your religion i admit becasue im not ignorant, do u believe in heaven and hell?

 

with all my respect

Muslim girl.