More Shiva and Vishnu Discussion

[gokulkr]

First directly answer to the quotes put in red in my prev post.

 

hey i have already proved by exteacting from "www.dvaita.net"

 

i will not accept this. whtever u post i will repeating it again & again that u should answer to my prev post. hahaha

since i dont respect persons like you.

 

just because i told the truth u are telling me as against vaishnavam.

 

yup.exactly.

 

so u will ignore me whatver i say.

 

yup.

 

so u are irrtating me & telling urself as a vaishnava.

 

yup.

 

whatever i say u will take it as comical/ignorant.

 

yup.

 

so u can ignore me. who cares since u are not accepting the truth.

 

i dont care.

 

ok u would have decided to waste ur life in debating rather than reading philosphies.

 

thats exaxtly i have in mind.

 

ok u waster ur life in debate. i try to follow "Vallabha sampradaya".

 

i have ignored you. u are just a coward pelting stones.

 

ok let it be. i dont care. if u think im a coward im least bothered. ifu think im ignorant im least bothered.

 

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

 

 

[Chitta]

Thank you for making my task easier. I did not know that you would throw in the Vaishnava towel, which is emblazoned with the Chakra and conch shell, that prematurely.

 

Whatever that you had asked for I had provided. Yet, you tergiversate. You flee, fudge and hedge. Perhaps, I am expecting too much from one with such lilliputian intellect. The least you could do, in your condition, is to declare that you are now a 'nirayuthabani', completely at my mercy. I shall punish you no more.

 

Your red herrings, double talk and blathering, seriously, have been tried by too many netters to influence intelligent people.

 

Now that I have pulverized you, I shall see whether, by the Mercy of your Lord Maha Vishnu <font color="red">(of the interpolated Rg Veda)</font color>, you will be able to rise from the ashes like the phoenix.

[Chitta]

Poor thing. My challenge is still waiting for at <font color="red">8th Feb 2004</font color>.

[gokulkr]

i think ure blind. (of course you are).

 

i have already posted reply to your so called challenge. so read my post 02/07/04 02:25 PM directed to u.

 

i have stated umteen times that i have provided the proof. but without even reading that dont keep yelling. since withot reading my reply u started yelling repeatedly i spoke truth about ur "real" character.

 

if you dont have courage to read my reply dated 02/07/04 02:25 PM , ok i will spare u.

 

without reading the post again dont yell that i havent taken ur so called stupid "challenge"

 

 

[gokulkr]

hey whether u hAVE come here to prove "Lord Shiva is supreme" or to prove Vaishnavam is false

 

if u are not here to prove the above, then what the hell are u at ?

 

because ur words clealr specify that ure not come here to acccept vaishnavam.

 

[Guest guest]

Om Namo Narayana

 

 

Also see the attachment

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

One of the guests has provided ample evidence from the shruti declaring Vishnu to be supreme. Since Chitta is not addressing anything that is actually posted, but just screaming "you are defeated, you are defeated", I see no point in having this discussion continue.

 

If Chitta has anything authoritative to offer in regards to evidence within the Vedas stating Vishnu is not Supreme, he may offer it. Otherwise follow up posts and attacks will be removed as they are quite irrelevant.

[gokulkr]

Whatever proof we give Chita doesnt accept.

 

All he knows that is to ignore our posts and just scream that "we are defeated".

 

actually hes just a materialistic confused person with no God consciousness. So he doesnt have heart to accept the truth that "Lord Krishna is Supreme".

 

he also doesnt know anything about any sampradayas.

 

[Guest guest]

 

instead of pleading to the administrator, why dont you show a proof ?

 

 

 

Haven't you figured it out yet, Gokulr? He can't show proof. Not even if his life depended on it.

 

You are laboring under the misconception that you are debating with an intelligent, well-read, and thoughtful individual in this Chitta.

 

What you are instead dealing with is an ignorant, socially frustrated, and mentally dense individual who does not even know Sanskrit. He can't backup any claim he makes, because he chooses his beliefs based on what he wants to believe in, rather than on the basis of evidence.

 

Notice how, when he makes one point, which later gets refuted, rather than admitting his error, he simply changes the subject. He claimed that Vishnu is not described as the Supreme God in the R^ig Veda. When I disproved that notion, all he could do is scream "interpolation!" So, even shruti is interpolated according to him.

 

Even Advaitins would never sink so low as to question the shruti. Frankly, I doubt if even Vivekanandas or Sai Babas would touch this guy with a 10-foot pole stick. Anyone who blatantly rejects shruti is nothing more than a renegade.

 

Let me again summarize:

 

1) Chitta does NOT know Sanskrit

2) See #1

 

[gokulkr]

Truth Triumphs.

Lord Vishnu is Supreme.

 

[gokulkr]

Chitta is polluting by posting his "non-vaishnavam" comments on my thread "Enclyopedia of Defeat of Advaitham".

 

if chita wants chita can start a new thread to post his comments.

 

so please remove his posts that are hanging in my thread "Enclyopedia of Defeat of Advaitham", because i want the thread to be a useful enclyopedia to all rather than arguements.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Deat Chitta,

 

If you say Rig Veda is interpolated or even say mis-interpreted and taken out of context, then tell me how can anyone know what Vedas teach. Uptot his point you have not given one point to consider worthwhile. All you have done here is useless argument with your bloated ego(sorry to say this). Your own statements saying that Vaishnavas here are ignorant and that you are an intellect etc. proves what I say.

 

As for Vedas it is accepted even by Advaitists that these shruitis are not interpolated. If this is your personal belief that shrutis are interpolated then this argument with you is futile.

 

If one says these verses supporting supremacy of Lord Vishnu is mis-interpreted then get to the specifics and start giving the correct interpretation.

 

For example

 

Rig-Veda 7:40:5 which says that Lord Rudra(Lord Shiva) gained His power by propitiating Lord Vishnu.

 

Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda which says that Lord Vayu powdered the Visha, most hard to break, churned out of the ocean and gave it to Lord Shiva and drank it along with Him(Lord Shiva). Here Lord Shiva is lower than Lord Vayu.

 

Devi or Ambrani Sukta of Rig Veda says that Devi makes whom she wants as Brahma, Ugra(Lord Shiva, in Rig Veda Ugra is used generally to mention Lord Shiva), a Rsi or a wise man. There is absolutely no mention of Lord Vishnu here. Devi even says that her home is in the oceans(No mountain or Kailasa mentioned).

 

Chitta let us have a healthy discussion here instead of display of your Ego and self praise or abuse of other Vaishnavas.

 

Please give me a correct interpretation of the above three mentioned in Rig Veda. If you do not have one, do not post nonsense here.

[Guest guest]

 

I am sorry but I have to point out to you an important aspect of Sri Raghavendra's later life, before his expiration. As he soared higher in Bhakti, he declared in an open court that was presided by a Muslim emperor that one who makes a distinction between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, and claims that one manifestation is 'higher' than the other, one shall make Hell one's eternal abode. It is worth your while, especially in your earnest effort to propagate your faith, to check this historical fact up immediately.

 

What I have quoted is from the works that I have obtained from Mantralaya, the nerve centre of his teachings.

 

 

Dear Chitta,

 

Please quote the biography or any work from mantralayam ( who is the author, when he lived etc.) from which you obtained those verses supposedly said by Sri Raghavendra Swamy.

 

On the other hand here is the official site of Sri Raghavendra Swamy's mutt with actual history. Raghavendra Swamy proves without doubt absolute supremacy of Lord Visnu.

 

Besides Rig Veda(7:40:5) without doubt proves Lord Rudra is subservient to Lord Visnu.

 

Devi Sukta of Rig Veda proves Lord Rudra is subservient to Maha Lakshmi.

 

Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda proves that Lord Rudra is subservient even to Lord Vayu.

 

Lord Vayu is subservient to Lord ChatumukhaBrahma. So claiming Rudra to be suerior to Lord Visnu is inconsistent with Vedas.

[Guest guest]

 

As if this blunder was not enough, the Ritvik writer lied that "...(the) Vedas proclaim Vishnu to be Supreme God...". I challenge the writer to cite this from an authoritative translation of the Veda that he claimed this is found. I shall, then, prove from rich sources that Vishnu's status in the Vedas was subservient to Rudra; and worse still, in the entire 4 Vedas, there is only one place where Krsna's name was mentioned.

 

 

 

There is much explicit proof in Vedas that Lord Rudra is lower than Lord Visnu, lower than Mahalakshmi and even lower to Vayu. All this was shown in the last post. Anyway

 

1. Please quote from Vedas where it claims Lord Visnu is subservient to Lord Rudra.

 

2. On the other hand somewhere you claimed that Rig Veda is interpolated, but here you claim Vedas proclaim Lord Rudra is superior. First you make a decision what you consider authentic.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Sri Raghavendra Swamy mutt's official website.

 

http://www.srsmutt.org/aradhana/charite/main.htm

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

Dear Chitta,

 

Classification of Puranas is found in Padma Purana:

 

shAstrANyapi cha sarvANi trividhAni mahAmate ||

yAni satyavaraM viShNuM vadanti parameshvaram.h |

tAni shAstrANi sarvANi sAtvikAni matAni vai ||

prajApatiM kR^ishAnuM cha tathA devIM sarasvatIm.h |

paratvena vadachChAstraM rAjasaM parichaxate ||

yachChAstraM liN^gapAramyaM vAmadevamumApatim.h |

tamaH pravartakaM vakti tattAmasamudAhR^itam.h ||

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

The above verse numbers are Padma Purana, Uttara khanda 236.18-21.

[gokulkr]

Jai Sri Krishna

 

Om Shri Guru Raghavendraya Namaha

 

I am a ardent devotee of "Lord Raghavendra" & "Lord Venkateshawara"/"Lord Krishna"

 

Chita was trying to make me believe that Lord Raghavendra told shiva & vishnu are same.

 

I too got slightly confused.

 

Your posts clarified me. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Anyway, People of Dwaita Philosphy, respect Lord Shiva as a great vaishnava. So They also give respect to Shiva by giving puja to shivalinga every friday. I think chita would have mistaken the above fact & came to conclusion that "Lord Raghavendra" told both are one.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

Om Namo Narayana

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

There is no higher authority than the supreme Lord.

All you need is faith in him.

 

Chitra who came here to claim Lord Shiva is supreme had no answer to rigveda re Lord Vishnu being supreme. All he had to offer was how shastra especially puranas have been interloped

I stated bhagvatam 8.21-35 where lord Shiva is prayed by prajapati as supreme (shridhar swami say those who see this two personality as different are merely engaged in useless argument)

Gokulkr said &#8220; dont intreret puranas such as bhagavatham by urself. its a sin&#8221; Sounds to me like other religions, where people get sentenced to death for having a different view.

 

Sri Bhagvat 4.1-28Atri Muni desiring a son like him called upon the Bhagvan thinking of him only. But although he is far beyond the mental speculation of man, all three of you have come here. kindly let me know how you have come, I am greatly bewildered about this.4.1-30 the three devas told Atri Muni, Dear brahmana you are perfect in your determination, and therefore as you have desired so it will happen, it will not happen otherwise. We are all the same person upon whom you were meditating, and therefore we have all come to you.

Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah.

Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell

yatha siva mayo vishnuh

Sivasya hrdyam Visnur Visnoz ca hrdayam Sivah(Skanda puran)

Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva,

Similarly, in Shivas heart Vishnu resides and Vishnus heart is abode of Shiva.

 

Guest who quoted rigveda said, any statement in Bhagvat which is against sruti must be rejected.

If were to quote him Sveshvatra Upanishad where lord Shiva, Sambhu Rudra is described as supreme, he probably would say to me these are names of lord Vishnu also.

Problem is if I was to chant these names (Shiva, Sambhu, Rudra) of Lord Vishnu than I fall foul of Nama apradha .So be it,I have chanted his names since childhood alongside Krishna, Rama and Mata.

 

If I may quote one sloka by Pushpadant

shmashAneshhvAkrIDA smarahara pishAchAH sahacharaaH

chitAbhasmAlepaH sragapi nR^ikaroTIparikaraH .

amaN^galyaM shIlaM tava bhavatu nAmaivamakhilaM

tathApi smartR^INAM varada paramaM maN^galamasi ..

 

O,boon giver! O,destroyer of Cupid! You play in the burning ghats . your

friends are the ghosts . Your body is smeared with the ashes of the dead

bodies . Your garland is of human skulls . Every aspect of your character is

thus inauspicious . Let it be . It does not matter . Because, with all these

known oddness, you are quick to grant all auspicious things to the people

who just think of you.

 

 

JAI SHREE KRISHNA

 

[Guest guest]

 

Jai Ganesh

There is no higher authority than the supreme Lord.

All you need is faith in him.

 

 

 

Oh that's a brilliant one. So in that case, let's all just accept Buddhism. Hey, Buddha spoke it. And He's the Lord. And that means rejecting the Vedas.

 

Yes, shruti is the highest authority. But I should have amended that with "for those who follow the authentic and logically derived conclusions of vedAnta."

 

For the rank-and-file "I-can't-think-so-I-just-learn-from-Hindu-websites-and-whatever-I-can-pull-out-of-context-from-books-which-I-happen-to-agree-with" Hindus, there are any number of other pramAnas, but they usually are not shruti. And thank goodness for that.

 

 

 

[gokulkr]

_______________

Gokulkr said &#8220; dont intreret puranas such as bhagavatham by urself. its a sin&#8221; Sounds to me like other religions, where people get sentenced to death for having a different view.

_________________

 

i didnt say having their views is a sin.

 

i only stated that just for sake of a cool debate we should not pull the trigger of misquoting.

 

i dunno why u seularists/advaitists always misunderstand vaishnavas ?

 

i always respect "Lord Shiva". I also respect "Adi Shankara".

 

i think its time to close this topic. otherwise it will never end.

[gokulkr]

________

Oh that's a brilliant one. So in that case, let's all just accept Buddhism. Hey, Buddha spoke it. And He's the Lord. And that means rejecting the Vedas.

 

Yes, shruti is the highest authority. But I should have amended that with "for those who follow the authentic and logically derived conclusions of vedAnta."

 

For the rank-and-file "I-can't-think-so-I-just-learn-from-Hindu-websites-and-whatever-I-can-pull-out-of-context-from-books-which-I-happen-to-agree-with" Hindus, there are any number of other pramAnas, but they usually are not shruti. And thank goodness for that.

________

 

good shot. keep it up.

 

[Guest guest]

 

If were to quote him Sveshvatra Upanishad where lord Shiva, Sambhu Rudra is described as supreme,

 

 

The Supreme Brahman described in the shvetAshvatara U. is Vishnu. That he is referred to by names like Rudra, Shambhu, etc does not mean he is the other devata by those names.

 

This is obvious from context, assuming one read and understood the upanishad in its entirety. Of course, for the remainder of the intellectually incompetent, the shvetAshvatara will remain a good source of mantras to be pulled out of context by any Jai Gandhi Hindu in order to establish any number of non-vedAntic conclusions which happen to fit within his myopic view of scripture.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

 

(Oh that's a brilliant one. So in that case, let's all just accept Buddhism. Hey, Buddha spoke it. And He's the Lord. And that means rejecting the Vedas. )

You are twisting my word. I still stand by what I said there is no higher authority than the supreme Lord, deny that than you are an atheist.

The Lord dwells in our heart and guides us according to our desires, through him we get the inteligent, memory and forgetfulness.

 

RE

(Yes, shruti is the highest authority. But I should have amended that with "for those who follow the authentic and logically derived conclusions of vedAnta.")

Follow your version you mean? Choose any colour as long as it is black

Or should I follow Adi Shankara? Do you follow his conclusion? I guess not.

Shankara after all he re-established Vedas, do you follow his conclusion on vedAnta? Let me guess &#8220;NO&#8221;, so where is your logic in shruti?

Re

(For the rank-and-file "I-can't-think-so-I-just-learn-from-Hindu-websites-and-whatever-I-can-pull-out-of-context-from-books-which-I-happen-to-agree-with" Hindus, there are any number of other pramAnas, but they usually are not shruti. And thank goodness for that.)

 

This does not deserve any comment.

 

 

Re

(Of course, for the remainder of the intellectually incompetent, the shvetAshvatara will remain a good source of mantras to be pulled out of context by any Jai Gandhi Hindu in order to establish any number of non-vedAntic conclusions which happen to fit within his myopic view of scripture.)

 

I do not know why you had to drag jai Gandhi Hindu here, bless his soul; I am an individual here representing no one. Also a dim &#8211;wit I am who cares

 

 

RE

(The Supreme Brahman described in the shvetAshvatara U. is Vishnu. That he is referred to by names like Rudra, Shambhu, etc does not mean he is the other devata by those names.

This is obvious from context, assuming one read and understood the upanishad in its entirety. )

 

Supreme Brahman, described here, as Rudra Shiva Sambhu residing on a mountain is any one other than Parvati pati, is a joke.

Sure I read upanishad in its entirety, I have no problem accepting the truth as presented since I see no different in Shiva and Vishnu

Where as for you to reconcile your conclusion you have to assume these names that are Rudra Siva etc are actual names of Lord Vishnu

You know some thing I have no problem with that, either way I get to chant these names, either as Vishnu and Shiva as same supreme person or Lord Vishnu known by this names i.e. Shiva Rudra Sambhu

 

I doubt if you will chant these names, as you only like to pay lip service.

 

Aum namo shivaya Aum namo Naranaya

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

You are twisting my word. I still stand by what I said there is no higher authority than the supreme Lord, deny that than you are an atheist.

 

 

 

Ok then. Go accept Buddhism. It is spoken by the Lord, and He is the highest authority. And in Buddhism He has rejected the Vedas. Therefore you should also reject the Vedas. Because this philosophy is spoken by the Buddha, who is the Lord, whom you have indicated is the highest authority.

 

 

Supreme Brahman, described here, as Rudra Shiva Sambhu residing on a mountain is any one other than Parvati pati, is a joke. Sure I read upanishad in its entirety, I have no problem accepting the truth as presented since I see no different in Shiva and Vishnu

 

 

So on one hand, the Rudra mentioned in the shvetAshvataropaniShad can only be Shiva; to say he is Vishnu "is a joke." Yet at the same time there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu. But still, this Rudra in svhetAshvatara U. is Shiva and not Vishnu.

 

Well, that seems quite deep.

 

 

Where as for you to reconcile your conclusion you have to assume these names that are Rudra Siva etc are actual names of Lord Vishnu

 

 

So Vishnu can't have names like "Rudra" or "Siva?" These names are reserved for one devata and one devata alone?

 

So if my name is Raghu, it must follow from your philosophy that I am actually the famous patriarch of Raghu Vamsha? There is no possibility in your world view that there could be more than one being in this world named "Raghu?"

 

If there is no difference between Vishnu and Shiva, then why do you say that these names like "Rudra,Shiva,Shambhu," etc cannot also be names of Vishnu? You say they are the same Deity, yet you say that these names are names of Shiva only and not Vishnu.

 

This is contradictory.

 

 

You know some thing I have no problem with that, either way I get to chant these names, either as Vishnu and Shiva as same supreme person or Lord Vishnu known by this names i.e. Shiva Rudra Sambhu

 

 

 

Well, aren't you special? Anyway, just keep on chanting. The trouble starts only when you are put into a position where you must think. Then we are subjected to the inane confusion you call Hinduism... where Shiva and Vishnu are the same, but Shiva's names are only those of Shiva and not those of Vishnu.