More Shiva and Vishnu Discussion

[ranjeetmore]

SHA has the best understanding in this forum HANDS DOWN.

 

I really respect his deep understanding.

 

Many people don't have the sense to understand,"Godhead has taken a form called Sadashiva,So He is God,not some demigod whom you can smirk at or ignore."

 

Sadashiva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.Durgadevi in Goloka is Yogamaya.

So if a person tries to explain shiva's 'position',he will only go round and round on this one verse,"Sadashiva is a transformation of Govinda".

 

And you know what is the most sad thing ??

 

Lord Advaita Acarya is declared often as One with the Supreme Lord.

But this Lord Advaita Acharya is an Incarnation of Sadashiva.As soon as people hear "Shiva",they run away.

 

And i would like to really point out the marvellous observation made by Sha.

 

Lord Sadashiva is the One Who enters Rasaleela and He is known as Gopisvara.His wife,Uma also enters the Rasaleela.

 

So WHY CAN'T I RESPECT SHIVA ??? I WILL GLORIFY HIM TILL MY LAST BREATH AND I WILL GLORIFY UMA TOO.

 

The fact of the matter is : Sri Ramacandra worshipped this Sadashiva and not a single Vaishnava can digest this fact. WHY ??

 

Can't an expansion be worshipped by Bhagavan ?? WHY is it so tough to understand their Indifference ???

WHY ???

[ranjeetmore]

If i call Shankar,as Shankar Bhagavan,it doesn't mean that Sri Krsna is subserviant to Him.

It only signifies Their Indifference.

[primate]

 

If i call Shankar,as Shankar Bhagavan,it doesn't mean that Sri Krsna is subserviant to Him.

It only signifies Their Indifference.

Brahman = Bhagavan = Krishna !?

[ranjeetmore]

Sri Krsna expands into Many forms corresponding with the qualities,parshads,leelas He wants to display.

Ultimately,it is Sri Krsna's will that is being carried out.He expands into the infinitude of Narayana forms as well as Sadashiva and Srimati Radharani expands into their Consorts.

But ultimately,it for the Satisfaction of the Divine Couple that such pastimes are carried out.

[sant]

ksiram yatha dadhi vikara-visesa-yogat

sanjayate na hi tatah prthag asti hetoh

yah sambhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

SYNONYMS

ksiram--milk; yatha--as; dadhi--yogurt; vikara-visesa--of a special transformation; yogat--by the application; sanjayate--is transformed into; na--not; hi--indeed; tatah--from the milk; prthak--separated; asti--is; hetoh--which is the cause; yah--who; sambhutam--the nature of Lord Siva; api--also; tatha--thus; samupaiti--accepts; karyat--for the matter of some particular business; govindam--Govinda; adi-purusam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajami--worship.

TRANSLATION

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

PURPORT(The real nature of Sambhu, the presiding deity of Mahesa-dhama, is described.) Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency. This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Sambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avatara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhagavata slokas, viz., vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh, etc., is that Sambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durgadevi by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping-stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra-sastras, etc., suitable for jivas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Sambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionism (Mayavada) and the speculative agama-sastras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him. So Sambhu cannot be called a jiva. He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda.

[JagdishVV]

I feel both of them are the same. It's our shallow knowledge that we diffrentiate.

 

1.'Om' the ultimate syllable and omkareshwar, lord shiva's name.

2. Sadashiva : one who has no beginning and no end.

 

this discussion is the result of someone trying to divide hindus, because the greatest of attained people whom we hardly get to see, are not vaishnav or shaivite, they just know god as pranav.

 

There is nothing such as insult to lord shiva because before aryans came, dravidians worshipped and knew only lord shiva. Are they the fallen race? no way..

[sant]

 

There is nothing such as insult to lord shiva because before aryans came, dravidians worshipped and knew only lord shiva. Are they the fallen race? no way..

 

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yes tell me more

about your history

[hindustani]

Why yours and why not ours?Are you different from others?Do you have 30 eyes,40 legs and 100 arms?Be wise Mr.Sant and yes in the end don't say that you were joking.

 

yes tell me more

about your history

[sant]

 

There is nothing such as insult to lord shiva because before aryans came, dravidians worshipped and knew only lord shiva. Are they the fallen race? no way

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i dont know what you mean by there was no other than lord shiva before dravidians and aryans.how long before are you talking about.

history as i know mentions aryans invading india some 5to 10 thousnad years ago i think .

please check my figures.

but ramayan happened over lakhs of years ago and aryans were still there.

in fact whole prithvi was manus and raghu dynasty

(aryans as also called) is from his race only.

so whats the point

[melvin]

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nataraja

[JagdishVV]

See, i feel that prioritizing or putting one over the other has been the work of people who wanted supremacy some time back in history...that's why we have had instances where it is discovered that even historical notes have been modified and so have been spiritual scriptures.

Tantriks and shaivites have been always looked down upon...

Dirty practices as they say..

how wrong and how pathetic such statements can be..

There is absolutely no point wasting mental energy discussing this that's who is above whom.

god is one

hindus r just getting divided.

if v had been a small community somewhere in the world, v would have been more knowledgeable, tolerant, and most importantly united.

our diversity should not bring upon divisions...

[melvin]

The basic teaching is that GOD is comprised actually of three personalities, The Generator(Brahma), the Operator(Visnu) and the Destroyer( Siva). They are the Holy Trinity described in the Bible. For us to understand this knowledge better, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu came up with this philosophy of acintya-bheda-abheda-tattva. That these 3 personalities are inconceivably one and yet they are simultaneously different. The difference is that Brahma and Siva are lower in rank to Visnu. However, it doesn`t mean that Brahma and Siva are not worshipable. They,too, are worshiped because they represent Visnu. Living beings who has no knowledge of Visnu but has knowledge of Siva worship Siva as God one without a second. Similarly, living entities who have no knowledge of Siva and Visnu, but who have knowldege of Brahma worship Brahma as God one without a second. But those living beings who have knowledge of Brahma, Visnu and Siva worship Visnu in the sense they know Visnu is God one without a second while Brahma and Siva are only second to none. However, those living beings who have realized that Brahma, Visnu and Siva are one with Lord Govinda have ended their search for the Absolute Truth by worshiping only Krsnah the wonderful bluish black skinned flute player who loves and protects the surabhi cows in Goloka Vrndavan.

[raghu]

 

The basic teaching is that GOD is comprised actually of three personalities, The Generator(Brahma), the Operator(Visnu) and the Destroyer( Siva). They are the Holy Trinity described in the Bible.

 

Wow. Let's just throw facts and logic to the four winds and start saying whatever we want. Truth doesn't matter. All that matters is what makes you feel good.

 

Raghu

 

p.s. For the intellectually-challenged, please do not quote me on this. It is sarcasm.

[melvin]

Hmmm. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father is Brahma, The Son is Siva and the Holy Spirit is the Paramatma Hiranyagarbha Visnu.

[primate]

 

Hmmm. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father is Brahma, The Son is Siva and the Holy Spirit is the Paramatma Hiranyagarbha Visnu.

Hmm, interesting. However, I would say Brahman/Vishnu is the Father, Vishnu/Shiva is the Son, and Consciousness is the Holy Spirit..

[melvin]

 

Hmm, interesting. However, I would say Brahman/Vishnu is the Father, Vishnu/Shiva is the Son, and Consciousness is the Holy Spirit..

 

Yup! that`s the right formula. Conscious chaos as the Holy Spirit is more specific, I guess.

[Adiyen Dasan]

Adiyen may not be knowledgeable, well versed in the shastras, vedas, puranas, prabandham, upanishads, Srimad Bhagavatham, Bhagavath Geetha and all the other scriptures BUT one thing I would want to tell you all is that The Supreme Personality of Godhead(I neither belong to ISKCON nor a Vaishnavite as you may think) will be far from being pleased with us for arguing incessently and in vain. Everyone does what she is destined to. And so was everyone who participated in this very important:rolleyes: debate.

Adiyen feels sorry for everyone who argued to disprove each other and thus FAILING:( in the very purpose. It is something like if you are destined to preach and follow SriVaishnavism, you will and if you are destined to preach Saivism, you will and you will also try to do the same to Christianity, Islam, Buddhishm, Jainism, Sikhism, Zorastrianism if you are destined to . Ultimately it all comes down to karma. What I want everyone to do is, stop discussing the superiority instead respect others' sentiments and at the same time with utmost belief in acharya(guru) and your marga path) do your karma and give your fullest to get rid of this material world and attain paramapadam.

 

Paramapadam= Steps to the highest Place.

 

Its upto you what the highest place is.

 

May Everyone attain the above!

 

This is Adiyen's Vignyapana to "HIM"

 

Matru Devo Bhava.

 

Pitru Devo Bhava.

 

Acharya Devo Bhava.

 

Athithi Devo Bhava.

 

Satyam Vada api Dharman chara.

 

 

A message to all: Yad Bhavam, tat Bhavati

 

As you think, So you become.

[kshama]

Respected Adiyen Dasan,

 

Welcome to the forum. It is nice to have a person like you contributing thoughts in this forum. I do think day by day, there are lesser substantial discussions here. And advanced sincere apologies to anyone that are offended by my statements. May god bless us all.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Adiyen may not be knowledgeable, well versed in the shastras, vedas, puranas, prabandham, upanishads, Srimad Bhagavatham, Bhagavath Geetha and all the other scriptures BUT one thing I would want to tell you all is that The Supreme Personality of Godhead(I neither belong to ISKCON nor a Vaishnavite as you may think) will be far from being pleased with us for arguing incessently and in vain. Everyone does what she is destined to. And so was everyone who participated in this very important:rolleyes: debate.

Adiyen feels sorry for everyone who argued to disprove each other and thus FAILING:( in the very purpose. It is something like if you are destined to preach and follow SriVaishnavism, you will and if you are destined to preach Saivism, you will and you will also try to do the same to Christianity, Islam, Buddhishm, Jainism, Sikhism, Zorastrianism if you are destined to . Ultimately it all comes down to karma. What I want everyone to do is, stop discussing the superiority instead respect others' sentiments and at the same time with utmost belief in acharya(guru) and your marga path) do your karma and give your fullest to get rid of this material world and attain paramapadam.

 

Paramapadam= Steps to the highest Place.

 

Its upto you what the highest place is.

 

May Everyone attain the above!

 

This is Adiyen's Vignyapana to "HIM"

 

Matru Devo Bhava.

 

Pitru Devo Bhava.

 

Acharya Devo Bhava.

 

Athithi Devo Bhava.

 

Satyam Vada api Dharman chara.

 

 

A message to all: Yad Bhavam, tat Bhavati

 

As you think, So you become.

So, you came to lecture us all about how much better we would be if we were all like you?

 

It doesn't appear you have anything to contribute to the topic apart from chastising those who have worked hard to provide some shastric material on this topic.

 

If you can't do anything more than criticize those who are on this topic trying to make some discussion, then maybe you can start a nice topic about something you do like.

 

Debate and disagreement enters into about every topic that comes up on the forum.

 

If everybody in India agrees on everything then why do they have more religions there than in any country in the world?

 

You are here trying to correct the error in our understanding, so what makes you any different than the rest of us who have our own understanding that does not agree with other views.

 

You don't agree with us and you are lecturing and attempting to correct our misunderstanding.

 

So, what makes you different from any of us?

[sambya]

 

If everybody in India agrees on everything then why do they have more religions there than in any country in the world?

 

your question itself carries the answer !!

 

all indians agree on evrything .

which means all indians agree on all religions of this world .

this means all indians accept all religions .

this indicates that they never went to convert or murder non-believers !

 

that is precisely why there is more religions in this country than anywhere else in this world !!

 

and roman catholicism is precisely why there is no other religion in the land that you were unfortunately born into .

[primate]

 

...

Adiyen feels sorry for everyone who argued to disprove each other and thus FAILING:( in the very purpose. It is something like if you are destined to preach and follow SriVaishnavism, you will and if you are destined to preach Saivism, you will and you will also try to do the same to Christianity, Islam, Buddhishm, Jainism, Sikhism, Zorastrianism if you are destined to . Ultimately it all comes down to karma. What I want everyone to do is, stop discussing the superiority instead respect others' sentiments and at the same time with utmost belief in acharya(guru) and your marga path) do your karma and give your fullest to get rid of this material world and attain paramapadam.

...

 

You may be correct in your supposition that everything we do is predestined. So why are we doing it? Exactly, because we are predestined to do so. We don’t have much of a choice in the whole matter. You see, any discussion may be predestined, but at the same time it might serve a (predestined) purpose by solving a question or a problem from which both parties benefit; be it through better understanding or better religious practice. How else do you expect religion to evolve? Isn’t it natural that (although predestined) this will involve much communication and discussion as an integral part of the whole (predestined) process, just like eating, sleeping, mating, fighting, praying ..?

[Adiyen Dasan]

 

You may be correct in your supposition that everything we do is predestined. So why are we doing it? Exactly, because we are predestined to do so. We don’t have much of a choice in the whole matter. You see, any discussion may be predestined, but at the same time it might serve a (predestined) purpose by solving a question or a problem from which both parties benefit; be it through better understanding or better religious practice. How else do you expect religion to evolve? Isn’t it natural that (although predestined) this will involve much communication and discussion as an integral part of the whole (predestined) process, just like eating, sleeping, mating, fighting, praying ..?

 

Discussion IS healthy but arguements are very poisonous. In India, there are so many religions, man-made communities, man-made castes, man-made sub- castes, man-made sects this that exist. Each one has views that are opposed to others. This only increases the tension within. People who can relate to that sect will resort to listening only to the glory of it.

 

We must avoid dvesha.

 

If you are destined to know something, you will.

 

After all, knowing The Supreme is what matters, which essentially I believe every jeevatma WILL.

[melvin]

 

Discussion IS healthy but arguements are very poisonous. In India, there are so many religions, man-made communities, man-made castes, man-made sub- castes, man-made sects this that exist. Each one has views that are opposed to others. This only increases the tension within. People who can relate to that sect will resort to listening only to the glory of it.

 

We must avoid dvesha.

 

If you are destined to know something, you will.

 

After all, knowing The Supreme is what matters, which essentially I believe every jeevatma WILL.

 

There are spiritual discussion forums for religious debate and there are also religious forums of this nature that are not. This thread I created is for those who want to debate on the subject matter. You see a kindergarten class becomes a church not a classroom if there are no loud noises of children shouting , screaming and running around while the teacher is telling them to listen and shut up..

[hindustani]

Total waste of time when you try to compare Shri Shivji OR degrade his devine character calling.......**********.

असित-गिरि-समं स्यात्‌ कज्जलं सिन्धु-पात्रे सुर-तरुवर-शाखा लेखनी पत्रमुर्वी।

लिखति यदि गृहीत्वा शारदा सर्वकालं तदपि तव गुणानामीश पारं न याति॥ ३२॥

 

Just go and read Shri Mahimna stotra if you are keen to get a glimpse of Shri Shivji.

now the translation :-

O, great master! Even, if one were to assume that the blue mountain , the ocean, the heavenly tree and the earth are the ink,the ink-pot, the pen and the paper respectively and the goddess of learning (Saraswati) herself is the writer,she will not be able to reach the frontiers of your greatness,however long she were to write!

[raghu]

 

Discussion IS healthy but arguements are very poisonous. In India, there are so many religions, man-made communities, man-made castes, man-made sub- castes, man-made sects this that exist. Each one has views that are opposed to others. This only increases the tension within. People who can relate to that sect will resort to listening only to the glory of it.

 

Differences of opinion do not concern me.

 

What worries me is the idealist who claims that such diversity is inherently poisonous. If I am unable to have my own view because it generates tension, then the natural conclusion is that I must give my own carefully thought out views and accept someone else's mediocre ideas just to satisfy the proponents of political correctness. In other words, an intellectual dictatorship.

 

 

If you are destined to know something, you will.

 

After all, knowing The Supreme is what matters, which essentially I believe every jeevatma WILL.

 

Your belief that we all will know the Supreme is unfounded. How do you know some people will not remain averse to the Supreme in spite of hearing about His glories?

 

If everything is predestined, then this renders pointless any attempt at making an effort to do anything. Are you perchance, a Tenkalai Sri Vaishnava?