More Shiva and Vishnu Discussion

[raga]

Originally posted by Pita das:

I would also like to submit to the assembled devottees a question ,maybe best to ask Tripurai Maharaja maybe best to ask afew leading Vashnavas ?

 

How can Shree Adwaita Acarya be both Maha Vishnu and Sada Shiva at the same time or which incarnation is He?

First of all, if you read carefully the excerpt from Laghu Bhagavatamrita, you'll find out that Sadashiva is one of Vishnu's forms.

 

Secondly, there are many dual incarnations in Mahaprabhu's pastimes according to Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika of Kavi Karnapura. Some examples are as follows:

 

<font color=blue>Caitanya -- Krishna & Radha's bhava and Radha's complexion + all other avataras

 

<font color=red>Advaita -- Mahavishnu & Sadashiva + one cowherd boy

 

<font color=blue>Gadadhara -- Radha & Lalita

 

<font color=red>Jahnava Devi -- Revati & Ananga Manjari

 

<font color=blue>Vasudha Devi -- Varuni & Ananga Manjari

 

<font color=red>Ramananda Raya -- Visakha Devi & Arjuna (Pandava) & Arjuna (cowherd-boy) (& Lalita according to GGD)

 

<font color=blue>Vakresvara Pandit -- Aniruddha & Tungavidya

 

<font color=red>Vrindavan Das Thakura -- Vyasa & Kusumapida (cowherd-boy)

 

<font color=blue>Gadadhara Das -- Candrakanti-devi & Purnananda-gopi

 

<font color=red>Damodara Pandit -- Saibya-gopi & Goddess Sarasvati

 

<font color=blue>Sivananda Sena -- Vira-devi & Duti-devi

 

<font color=red>Sanatana Gosvami -- Labanga Manjari & Sanatana Kumara

</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>

Why not?

[sha]

How can Shree Adwaita Acarya be both Maha Vishnu and Sada Shiva at the same time or which incarnation is He?

The answers can be found in the Scripures if only the sincere devotees choose to understand and accept them.

<font color="red">'svapne jAgaraNe zazvath kRSNa dhyAna rataH zivaH

yathA kRSNA stathA zambhur na bhedo mAdhavezayoH"</font>

 

(Brahma Vaivarta Purana-Prakriti khanda II.56.61)

 

"Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in MEDITATION of KRISHNA.

 

As is Krishna, so is ShAmbhu; There is NO DIFFERENCE between MADHAVA and ISA"

 

<font color="red">'yo hariH sa zivaH sAkSAd yaH zivaH sa svayaM hariH

ye tayor bhedamAti sthan narakAya bhave nnaraH</font>

 

(Visnu purana.5.33.46)

 

"Whoever is Lord Hari, He Himself is Lord Shiva indeed.

 

Whoever is manifesting as Lord Shiva, He Himself is Lord Hari.

 

<big>Any humanbeing mistakes both the Lords to be different, he/she surely goes to hell.</big>

(what to speak of going to Vaikuntha, Dwaraka or Vrindavana!)

 

In Vishnu Purana also, VISHNU declares HIS NON DIFFERENCE from SIVA. (V.P.5.33.46-48)

 

Here we find, full justification for the statement in the Narada PancaRatra concerning the BVP as teaching the NON DIFFERENCE between HARI AND HARA.

 

Just as stated in Brahma-Samhita the relationship of Lord Siva and Lord Govinda are compared to that of milk and yogurt. Milk itself becomes TRANSFORMED into yogurt.

 

<font color="red">"kSIraM yathA dadhi vikAra vizeSa yogAt

saJjAyate na hi pRthag asti hetoH

yaH zambhu tAm api tathA samupaiti kAryAd

govindam AdipuruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi"</font>

 

Just as milk itself is transformed into curd (yogurt),

but yet they both are neither SAME nor DIFFERENT from each other,

so also I adore my Beloved primeveal Lord Govinda, Who has transformed Himself into Lord Shiva for the performance of divine lilas.

 

<font color="red">"yathA ziva mayo viSNuH

zivasya hRdayaM viSNur viSNoz

ca hRdayaM zivaH</font>

 

(Skanda Purana)

 

Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva,

 

similarly, in Siva's heart Vishnu resides and Vishnu's heart is the abode of Shiva.

 

Lord Vishnu= Lord Shiva= Gopishvara Shambhu= Sri Advaitacarya

[Guest guest]

wow, you peoples shore do write alot about Shiva!

what do you think about rastafarians?

what with their matted locks,ganja,constant singing about god...(open sesame, here comes rastaman,abracadabra catch me if you can...I know it's hard to believe,that,I am, the genie of the lamp,and,I can, get anything you want,but right now I'm asking you to dance...)

 

So much of the stuff you all copied down is understood on different levels, meaning one thing to one person and something totally different to another.

 

That is why there is are many varied descriptions of Shiva.

 

This is why Srila Prabhupada didn't write alot about Shiva.

Shiva is only understood by someone who is free from all material conceptions,then all the purports of the sastra are revealed to him/her.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 06-18-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 06-18-2002).]

[sha]

Originally posted by Pita das:

I would also like to submit to the assembled devottees a question ,maybe best to ask Tripurai Maharaja maybe best to ask afew leading Vashnavas ?

 

How can Shree Adwaita Acarya be both Maha Vishnu and Sada Shiva at the same time or which incarnation is He?

Before resorting to the blasphemy or convenient interpretations suitable for the mission, Tripurari maharaj has to renounce his own name "Tripurari" meaning the socalled demigod Lord Shiva, another epithet of Lord Shiva depicting His pastime.

 

How can one who is named after the Divine personality ridicule or look down upon the same!

[raga]

Originally posted by sha:

Before resorting to the blasphemy or convenient interpretations suitable for the mission, Tripurari maharaj has to renounce his own name "Tripurari" meaning the socalled demigod Lord Shiva, another epithet of Lord Shiva depicting His pastime.

 

How can one who is named after the Divine personality ridicule or look down upon the same!

Why such strong words? What has he said about Shiva?

 

 

[raga]

Shiva is only understood by someone who is free from all material conceptions

Exactly, shiva!

[sha]

Originally posted by raga:

Why such strong words? What has he said about Shiva?

 

 

No, I did't mean my words to be harsh. There has been no reason for strong words against any one but simply exepecting a good reconciliation of the worship of Gopishvara and Gopivallabha for the benefit of all devotees.

<small><font color="white">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 06-18-2002).]

[sha]

quote:

--

Shiva is only understood by someone who is free from all material conceptions

--

 

 

Originally posted by raga:

Exactly, shiva!

And so is Lord Krishna, so is Radharani and Her Gopis, so are Lord Caitanya and His Associates.<small><font color="cfcfcf">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 06-18-2002).]

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Om Namah Shivaya,

 

If anybody truly loves Lord Krishna, then he loves Lord Shiva automatically.

 

Also the position of Lord Shiva can made clear from the following verse of Rig Veda samhita.

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07040.htm

 

With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu.

Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands.(Rig-Veda:7-40-5)

 

[sha]

Hare Krishna,

Om Namah Shivaya,

 

If anybody truly loves Lord Krishna, then he loves Lord Shiva automatically.

<font color="red">gaGgA taraGga ramaNIya jaTAkalApam

gaurI nirantara vibhusSita vAmabhAgam,

nArAyanapriyam anaGgamadApahAram,

vArANasI purpatiM bhaja viSvanAthaM

</font>

Worship Sri Vishwanatha, the Lord of Varanasi,

whose locks look charming with the ripples of the Ganga;

who is ever adorned on His left by Gauri (the Divine Mother),

<big>the Beloved of Narayana,</big>

and the destroyer of Cupid’s pride.

<font color="blue">vAacAm agocaram aneka guNasvarUpaM

vAgIza viSNu surasevita pAdapIThaM,

vAmena vigrahavareNa kalatravantam

vArANasI purpatiM bhaja viSvanAthaM</font>

Worship Lord Shiva, Vishwanatha, the Lord of Varanasi,

Who is beyond speech, the repository of limitless attributes;

<big>Whose feet are worshipped by Brahma, Vishnu</big>

and other gods,

and Who has His wife (Gauri) on His left.

(Sri Vishvanathashtakam. verses 1, 2)

<small><font color="cfcfcf">

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 06-21-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Since the world has been created by God, we are still in debate that Who is greater - Vishnu or Shiva ?

 

Saivaities will never agree that Vishnu is greater and nor Vaishnavaities will agree that Shiva is greater.

 

But Vedas is base of Hinduism. Even in Vedas, it is clearly specified that Lord Vishnu is Supreme God and Lord Shiva himself a devotee of Lord Vishnu.

 

In all Maha puranas & upa puranas written by Lord Vyasa (Vishnu) clearly specify that Lord Vishnu is Supreme God. Lord Vyasa wont lie since he is incarnation of Vishnu.

 

Moreover, In Bhagavat Gita, Lord Krishna himself has stated that He is the Supreme One. Lord Krishna wont lie. If Saivaities refuse to accept Lord krishna's words, then they are just missing the path to salvation - which can attained only by worshiiping Lord Vishnu (Krishna).

 

In Some Ramayana Texts, it is specified that Lord Rama worshipped Lord Shiva. But we have to remember that Rama avatar is a Human incarnation, where Lord behaved & lived like a human being. So Lord Rama even worshipped Goddess Durga, Lord Surya & Lord Brahma (when Brahma appeared before him during Sati incident), thus giving respect to all demigods as a human being. But Every Demi God (including Shiva) worshipped Lord Krishna.

 

Even a war occured between Lord Krishna and Shiva during Banasura incident, Lord Krishna easily defeated Shiva & his hordes without any difficulty thus proving that Lord Krishna (Lord Vishnu )is Supreme.

 

So called "Saivaite" Texts & Puranas (including "Shiv Maha Puranam") are written by ordinary humans in order to insult "Vaishnavam".

 

But all Vaishnava Puranas (including Skanda purana & Shiv purana & Linga Purana) were written by Lord vyasa specifying clearly thru his all 18 puranas that Lord Vishnu is Supreme.

 

Moreover, in Vayu purana - it is clearly mentioned that Lord Shiva is borned to Sage Kasyapa through Grace of Lord Brahma. But there is no genuine purana stating that Lord Vishnu has been created by other God.

 

So ultimately, we all should obey & respect Words told in Bhagavat Gita by Lord Krishna and accept Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna) as Supreme one.

 

NOTE : A REQUEST TO SAIVAITIES :- There are many ancient saivaite temples bearing sculptures & paintings that are insulting to Lord Vishnu (Ex:- Lord Vishnu worshiping Demigods etc.,) . So please remove the sculptures that are insulting to Lord Vishnu, because Lord Shiva himself is a devotee of Lord Vishnu. Saivaities try to respect Vaishnavaties & their symbol "NAMA" (Symbol painted in Vishnu's forehead). Dont insult NAMA.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You have a great misconception that Vaishnavas can't tolerate Lord Shiva. If that be so, then can you tell me why a such great luminary as Sri Vyaasateertha wrote a Shivastotra? Vyaasateertha was an incarnation of Shankukarna, the son(MaanasaPutra) of Brahma. He didn't need to compose a Shivastotra. But he did.

Your mind is polluted to think in the way do.

 

You're here only to divide people like the British did. For your heartache, I'll give you classic examples.

In GopalaSahasranaama, Lord Shiva says Shri Krishna had Himself taught Him the thousand names. We find many such instances of Shiva-Parvati conversations where Lord Shiva has sung the Supremacy of Lord Vishnu. In one of them, He even says that Lord Vishnu revealed the particular stotra to Lord Shiva considering Lord Shiva His "son".

 

Every God has His own position & we're not here to decide who's best or worst. You want to pray to Lord Shiva, do so. No Vaishnava will stop you from doing it. And you should likewise not try poison discussion groups like these by displaying ur whims & fantasies.

 

Try spreading goodwill & awareness of Hindu culture instead.

And by the way, the Indus Valley Civilization was is only from 3000-1500 BC, and not 9000BC. Seems u're from the Stone Age too.

[Guest guest]

Well, the halahala story is pretty interesting. Here is what I have for you. The poison that emerged from the churning of the great ocean was actually drunk by Vayu. There was just one drop left & Lord Shiva drank that. With just one drop, his throat became blue, his body generated so much heat that He had Ganga trying to cool it. Still not cooled, He tried by placing the Moon on His head. One drop of poison! And the entire pot was almost emptied by Vayu. Consider it.

[Guest guest]

I studied each of your points. I think you also realize that when God has to incarnate on this planet, He can't "act" as one. He has to remain a human, performing some miracles now & then. Only the Jnanis know that He is God incarnate. So when Rama, Sita, Krishna & Radha incarnated, they acted as humans. They had human bodies & prayed to Gods prayed to by the masses. That doesn't mean Lakshmi really offered her bosom to Lord Shiva. Why would Lord Vishnu keep quiet if that be the case? Its a leela you failed to understand. You might also be aware that if the case arises, God can actually stop worshipping the Gods of the masses. The classic case is that of Indra & Krishna.

 

Each of your quotations have the same purport. Consider this. In PadmaPurana, there is an Uttara Khanda that contains the supremacy of SrimadBhagavatam among all sacred texts. And one of its shlokas says "He, Lord Narayana, the Guru of even Lord Brahma & Lord Shiva, ....."

What do u have to say for that?

 

In GopalaSahasranaama, Lord Shiva says Shri Krishna had Himself taught Him the thousand names. We find many such instances of Shiva-Parvati conversations where Lord Shiva has sung the Supremacy of Lord Vishnu. In one of them, He even says that Lord Vishnu revealed the particular stotra to Lord Shiva considering Lord Shiva His "son".

 

But you made a valiant attempt, I must say. And I agree totally with you that we should not malign any other Gods/Godesses here. Lord Shiva has been prayed to by Vaishnavas since time immemorial. This forum is meant to spread spiritual awareness & you have made good contribution.

[Guest guest]

There are puranas which say Lord Shiva is supreme and that Lord Vishnu is only and ordinary jiva devotee of Shiva. In the Shiva purana Lord Shiva killed Lord Nrisimhadeva after the latter had killed Hiranyakashipu and was threatening to destroy the universe. After killing Lord Nrisimhadeva, Lord Shiva is wearing his skull around his neck and the animal hide(spelling) lord shiva is wearing is actually the hide of Lord Nrisimhadeva. Actually the Shiva purana repeats many Bhagavatam stories and puts shiva as the supreme. In the fight with Banasura, Shiva defeats Lord Vishnu and after the latters entreaties, he lets him cut Banasuras heads. In that purana, Lord SHiva keeps on thrashing Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma on and on for their naughty behaviour. If some one is a follower of the Shiva Purana there is no way he can respect Lord Vishnu less think of Him as the Supreme. In that purana, it is repeated on every page that Lord Vishnu cannot do anything without meditating on Lord Shiva.By reading that purana devotion to Lord Vishnu is more threatened than by reading mayavadi philosophy.

Still the Shiva purana is mentioned among the puranas in every purana. How to reconcile these puranas, especially shaivite and Vaishnava?

[Guest guest]

 

anyway you think still God is the same,whatever any book or person says doesn't change reality.

so whatever you believe, shiva is god, visnu is god ,kali

is god ,jesus is god,that doesn't change God.

 

God is still One omnipresent being comprising all of reality,your realization and experience of reality is determined by God,if you haven't met God then you should understand that whatever your belief or thoughts are on the matter are subject to change,if you were perfect in knowledge and realization you will know the truth

directly from the source,who is present here and now at all times,if you do not have this direct experience at all times

then you should know you have some correcting to be done

on your own vision,if your vision is perfected then

there would be no reason for God to not show him/her self

at all times,directly.

 

 

[Guest guest]

When rAm was worshipping Siva near sea-side before going to lankA, He gave Lord Siva, the name -- rAmeSvara. hanumAn asked the purport of the name. Lord rAm said:

 

rAmasya ISvarah, sah rAmeSvara |

 

He, who is the Lord of rAm, is rAmeSvara.

 

Lord Siva was watching all this from kailASa. When he heard the meaning of rAmeSvara given by rAmchandra, he laughed mildly. pArvati devI was sitting beside Him, she asked why He was laughing. Lord Siva said, look at the lIlA of the Supreme Lord, what games he plays with his devotees. Now he has made his servant, his master by changing the meaning of rAmeSvara. pArvati devI asked, then what is the meaning of rAmeSvara. Lord Siva said:

 

rAma yasya ISvarah, sah rAmeSvara |

 

He, whose Lord is rAma, is rAmeSvarah

[gokulkr]

Hey you shaivatee, stop insulting Lord Vishnu. You are trying to pollute the minds of vaishnavatees here.

 

If you want to put ur saivaite stories put somewhere in a saivaite site. No ones least intrested in your so called demigod's Glory (????)

 

Shaiva puranas come under tamasic. Only vaisnava puranas are Satvic. Moreover, all the scholars asked to read "Mahabharata" in morning, "Ramayana" in afternoon & "Bhagavatham" in Evening.

 

We vaishnavas offer respect to Lord Rudra. Only you shaviatess always insult vaishnavas & Lord Vishnu. Everyone knows that.

 

People like only "Love inspiring gods like Jesus, Rama & Krishna". No one cares about terrifying gods.

 

Everyones love Lord Narashima. Lord Narashima has shown his form to many devotees in "Kali yuga". So Lord Narashima exists. So dont blabber by believing myths.

 

Saivatees always tried to kill Lord Ramanuja, Lord Madwacharya & many Dwaita Theerthas just because Visistadwaitis & Dwaita scholars defeated "Adhvaita" philosophy many times. So you people became cruel and tried to kill them. Its recorded in history. People of "true religion" dont try to kill even a ant. That proves "Saivatees" are barbarians.

 

Saivatees who tried to kill Lord Ramanuja can be compared to Jewish people who crucified Lord Jesus.

 

Note : Saivatees plucked the eyes of Lord kurratalwar (disciple of Lord Ramanuja) & tortured him just because Lord Kurratalwar refuse to accept Shiva as Supreme. How cruel the saivatees are ? Is this a religion or barbarianism ?

 

Till now, no vaishnavas had destroyed any shiva shrine.

But shavities had destroyed many vishnu temples. No vaishnavas have tried to kill any shaivaite saint.

 

So vaishnavam is a religion of tolerancy. It doesnt generate hatred.

 

i have proof for all above.

 

Is there any book equivalent to "Bhagavath Gita" ?

 

Moreover, Lord Rama is a human incarnation of Lord Vishnu.

Lord Rama want to live like a human rather than a god. So Lord Rama never showed himself like a god.

Lord Rama worshipped all demigods like "Rudra, Durga, Ganesha, Brahma & Indra". Do u mean that Lord Rama is inferior to Indra/Brahma just because Rama worshipped them. Just use common sense.

 

Great people always be humble. Lord Rama is a great human incarnation of vishnu. So he was humble always. Try to understand that. Its not because hes powerless.

 

First Read "Bhagavath Gita" and cleanify your mind.

 

Just because shaivatess have bundle of many stories doesnt mean that Rudra is a Supreme God. Millions of shaiva purana is not equal to One "Bhagavath Gita".

 

More Vaishnavatees dont eat non-veg & never harm any life. Are u shaivatess are like that ?

 

You shaivatees always give helpless animals as a sacrifice to ur terrifying demigods. Shame on your religious behaviour.Areunt u shaivatees ashamed of killing innocent animals to invoke blessing of demigods ?

 

Vaishnavas dont give animal sacrifice to Lord Vishnu or Mother Lakshmi. Remember that.

 

Moreover, we dont practice any blackmagic. Only Kali bhakthas & Terrifying Shiva bhaktas do that. Its a shame.

 

Message to shaivatees :

 

First use your conscience & Be a human being with compassion. Then u can invoke belssings of so called demigods or "gods".

 

 

 

[gokulkr]

Hey you shaivatee, stop insulting Lord Vishnu. You are trying to pollute the minds of vaishnavatees here.

 

If you want to put ur saivaite stories put somewhere in a saivaite site. No ones least intrested in your so called demigod's Glory (????)

 

Shaiva puranas come under tamasic. Only vaisnava puranas are Satvic. Moreover, all the scholars asked to read "Mahabharata" in morning, "Ramayana" in afternoon & "Bhagavatham" in Evening.

 

We vaishnavas offer respect to Lord Rudra. Only you shaviatess always insult vaishnavas & Lord Vishnu. Everyone knows that.

 

People like only "Love inspiring gods like Jesus, Rama & Krishna". No one cares about terrifying gods.

 

Everyones love Lord Narashima. Lord Narashima has shown his form to many devotees in "Kali yuga". So Lord Narashima exists. So dont blabber by believing myths.

 

Saivatees always tried to kill Lord Ramanuja, Lord Madwacharya & many Dwaita Theerthas just because Visistadwaitis & Dwaita scholars defeated "Adhvaita" philosophy many times. So you people became cruel and tried to kill them. Its recorded in history. People of "true religion" dont try to kill even a ant. That proves "Saivatees" are barbarians.

 

Saivatees who tried to kill Lord Ramanuja can be compared to Jewish people who crucified Lord Jesus.

 

Note : Saivatees plucked the eyes of Lord kurratalwar (disciple of Lord Ramanuja) & tortured him just because Lord Kurratalwar refuse to accept Shiva as Supreme. How cruel the saivatees are ? Is this a religion or barbarianism ?

 

Till now, no vaishnavas had destroyed any shiva shrine.

But shavities had destroyed many vishnu temples. No vaishnavas have tried to kill any shaivaite saint.

 

So vaishnavam is a religion of tolerancy. It doesnt generate hatred.

 

i have proof for all above.

 

Is there any book equivalent to "Bhagavath Gita" ?

 

Moreover, Lord Rama is a human incarnation of Lord Vishnu.

Lord Rama want to live like a human rather than a god. So Lord Rama never showed himself like a god.

Lord Rama worshipped all demigods like "Rudra, Durga, Ganesha, Brahma & Indra". Do u mean that Lord Rama is inferior to Indra/Brahma just because Rama worshipped them. Just use common sense.

 

Great people always be humble. Lord Rama is a great human incarnation of vishnu. So he was humble always. Try to understand that. Its not because hes powerless.

 

First Read "Bhagavath Gita" and cleanify your mind.

 

Just because shaivatess have bundle of many stories doesnt mean that Rudra is a Supreme God. Millions of shaiva purana is not equal to One "Bhagavath Gita".

 

More Vaishnavatees dont eat non-veg & never harm any life. Are u shaivatess are like that ?

 

You shaivatees always give helpless animals as a sacrifice to ur terrifying demigods. Shame on your religious behaviour.Areunt u shaivatees ashamed of killing innocent animals to invoke blessing of demigods ?

 

Vaishnavas dont give animal sacrifice to Lord Vishnu or Mother Lakshmi. Remember that.

 

Moreover, we dont practice any blackmagic. Only Kali bhakthas & Terrifying Shiva bhaktas do that. Its a shame.

 

Message to shaivatees :

 

First use your conscience & Be a human being with compassion. Then u can invoke belssings of so called demigods or "gods".

 

 

 

[gokulkr]

Listen to Adi Shankara First.

Below words are sung by Adi Shankara himself.

 

Note : Adi shankara is incarnation of Lord Shiva itself.

 

TEXT 1

 

bhajagovindam bhajagovindam

govindam bhajamuudhamate

sampraapte sannihite kaale

nahi nahi rakshati dukrijnkarane

 

Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death.

 

TEXT 2

 

mudha jahiihi dhanaagamatrishhnaam

kuru sadbuddhim manasi vitrishhnaam

yallabhase nijakarmopaattam

vittam tena vinodaya chittam

 

Oh fool! Give up your thrist to amass wealth, devote your mind to thoughts to the Real. Be content with what comes through actions already performed in the past.

 

TEXT 3

 

naariistanabhara naabhiidesham

drishhtvaa maagaamohaavesham

etanmaamsaavasaadi vikaaram

manasi vichintaya vaaram vaaram

 

Do not get drowned in delusion by going wild with passions and lust by seeing a woman's navel and chest. Bodies are flesh, fat and blood. Do not fail to remember this again and again in your mind.

 

TEXT 4

 

naliniidalagata jalamatitaralam

tadvajjiivitamatishayachapalam

viddhi vyaadhyabhimaanagrastam

lokam shokahatam cha samastam

 

Uncertain is the life of man as rain drops on a lotus leaf. Know that the whole world remains a prey to disease, ego and grief.

 

TEXT 5

 

yaavadvittopaarjana saktah

staavannija parivaaro raktah

pashchaajjiivati jarjara dehe

vaartaam koapi na prichchhati gehe

 

So long as a man is fit and able to support his family, see the affection all those around him show. But no one at home cares to even have a word with him when his body totters due to old age.

 

TEXT 6

 

yaavatpavano nivasati dehe

taavatprichchhati kushalam gehe

gatavati vaayau dehaapaaye

bhaaryaa bibhyati tasminkaaye

 

When one is alive, his family members enquire kindly about his welfare. But when the soul departs from the body, even his wife runs away in fear of the corpse.

 

TEXT 7

 

baalastaavatkriidaasaktah

tarunastaavattaruniisaktah

vriddhastaavachchintaasaktah

pare brahmani koapi na saktah

 

Childhood is lost in play. Youth is lost by attachment to woman. Old age passes away by thinking over many past things. Alas! hardly is there anyone who yearns to be lost in Parabrahman.

 

TEXT 8

 

kaate kaantaa kaste putrah

samsaaro.ayamatiiva vichitrah

kasya tvam kah kuta aayaatah

tattvam chintaya tadiha bhraatah

 

Who is your wife? Who is your son? Strange is this samsara. Of whom are you? Where have you come from? Brother, ponder over these truths.

 

TEXT 9

 

satsangatve nissngatvam

nissangatve nirmohatvam

nirmohatve nishchalatattvam

nishcalatattve jiivanmuktih

 

From Satsanga comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jivan Mukti.

 

TEXT 10

 

vayasigate kah kaamavikaarah

shushhke niire kah kaasaarah

kshiinevitte kah parivaarah

gyaate tattve kah samsaarah

 

What good is lust when youth has fled? What use is a lake which has no water? Where are the relatives when wealth is gone? Where is samsara when the Truth is known?

 

TEXT 11

 

maa kuru dhana jana yauvana garvam

harati nimeshhaatkaalah sarvam

maayaamayamidamakhilaM hitvaa

brahmapadaM tvaM pravisha viditvaa

 

Do not boast of wealth, friends, and youth. Each one of these are destroyed within a minute. Free yourself from the illusion of the world of Maya and attain the timeless Truth.

 

TEXT 12

 

dinayaaminyau saayam praatah

shishiravasantau punaraayaatah

kaalah kriidati gachchhatyaayuh

tadapi na mujncatyaashaavaayuh

 

Daylight and darkness, dusk and dawn, winter and springtime come and go. Time plays and life ebbs away. But the storm of desire never leaves.

 

TEXT 13

 

dvaadashamajnjarikaabhirasheshhah

kathito vaiyaakaranasyaishhah

upadesho bhuudvidyaanipunaih

shriimachchhankarabhagavachchharanarih

 

This bouquet of twelve verses was imparted to a grammarian by the all-knowing Shankara, adored as the bhagavadpada.

 

TEXT 14

 

kaate kaantaa dhana gatachintaa

vaatula kim tava naasti niyantaa

trijagati sajjanasam gatiraikaa

bhavati bhavaarnavatarane naukaa

 

Oh mad man! Why this engrossment in thoughts of wealth? Is there no one to guide you? There is only one thing in three worlds that can save you from the ocean from samsara. Get into that boat of satsangha quickly.

 

TEXT 15

 

jatilo mundii lujnchhitakeshah

kaashhaayaambarabahukritaveshhah

pashyannapi cana pashyati muudhah

udaranimittam bahukritaveshhah

 

There are many who go with matted locks, many who have clean shaven heads, many whose hairs have been plucked out; some are clothed in saffron, yet others in various colors --- all just for a livelihood. Seeing truth revealed before them, still the foolish ones see it not.

 

TEXT 16

 

angam galitam palitam mundam

dashanavihiinam jatam tundam

vriddho yaati grihiitvaa dandam

tadapi na mujncatyaashaapindam

 

Strength has left the old man's body; his head has become bald, his gums toothless and leaning on crutches. Even then the attachment is strong and he clings firmly to fruitless hope.

 

TEXT 17

 

agre vahnih prishhthebhaanuh

raatrau chubukasamarpitajaanuh

karatalabhikshastarutalavaasah

tadapi na mujncatyaashaapaashah

 

Behold there lies the man who sits warming up his body with the fire in front and the sun at the back; at night he curls up the body to keep out of the cold; he eats his beggar's food from the bowl of his hand and sleeps beneath the tree. Still in his heart, he is a wretched puppet at the hands of passions.

 

TEXT 18

 

kurute gangaasaagaragamanam

vrataparipaalanamathavaa daanam

gyaanavihinah sarvamatena

muktim na bhajati janmashatena

 

One may go to the Ganga, observe fasts, and give away riches in charity! Yet, devoid of jnana, nothing can give mukthi even at the end of a hundred births.

 

TEXT 19

 

sura mandira taru muula nivaasah

shayyaa bhuutala majinam vaasah

sarva parigraha bhoga tyaagah

kasya sukham na karoti viraagah

 

Take your residence in a temple or below a tree, wear the deerskin for the dress, and sleep with mother earth as your bed. Give up all attachments and renounce all comforts. Blessed with such vairagya, could any fail to be content?

 

TEXT 20

 

yogarato vaabhogaratovaa

sangarato vaa sangaviihinah

yasya brahmani ramate chittam

nandati nandati nandatyeva

 

One may take delight in yoga or bhoga, may have attachment or detachment. But only he whose mind steadily delights in Brahman enjoys bliss, no one else.

 

TEXT 21

 

bhagavad giitaa kijnchidadhiitaa

gangaa jalalava kanikaapiitaa

sakridapi yena muraari samarchaa

kriyate tasya yamena na charchaa

 

Let a man read but a little from the Gita, drink just a drop of water from the Ganga, worship Murari just once. He then will have no altercation with Yama.

 

TEXT 22

 

punarapi jananam punarapi maranam

punarapi jananii jathare shayanam

iha samsaare bahudustaare

kripayaa apaare paahi muraare

 

Born again, death again, birth again to stay in the mother's womb ! It is indeed hard to cross this boundless ocean of samsara. Oh Murari ! Redeem me through Thy mercy.

 

TEXT 23

 

rathyaa charpata virachita kanthah

punyaapunya vivarjita panthah

yogii yoganiyojita chitto

ramate baalonmattavadeva

 

There is no shortage of clothing for a monk so long as there are rags cast off the road. Freed from vice and virtue, onward he wanders. One who lives in communion with God enjoys bliss, pure and uncontaminated, like a child and as someone intoxicated.

 

TEXT 24

 

kastvam ko.aham kuta aayaatah

kaa me jananii ko me taatah

iti paribhaavaya sarvamasaaram

vishvam tyaktvaa svapna vichaaram

 

Who are you? Who am I? From where do I come? Who is my mother, who is my father? Ponder thus, look at everything as essenceless and give up the world as an idle dream.

 

TEXT 25

 

tvayi mayi chaanyatraiko vishhnuh

vyartham kupyasi mayyasahishhnuh

bhava samachittah sarvatra tvam

vaajnchhasyachiraadyadi vishhnutvam

 

In me, in you and in everything, none but the same Vishnu dwells. Your anger and impatience is meaningless. If you wish to attain the quality of Vishnu soon, have Sama Bhaava always.

 

TEXT 26

 

shatrau mitre putre bandhau

maa kuru yatnam vigrahasandhau

sarvasminnapi pashyaatmaanam

sarvatrotsrija bhedaagyaanam

 

Do not waste your efforts to win the love of or to fight against friend and foe, children and relatives. See yourself in everyone and give up all feelings of duality completely.

 

TEXT 27

 

kaamam krodham lobham moham

tyaktvaa atmaanam bhaavaya ko aham

aatmagyaana vihiinaa muudhaah

te pachyante narakaniguudhaah

 

Give up lust, anger, infatuation, and greed. Ponder over your real nature. Fools are they who are blind to the Self. Cast into hell they suffer there endlessly.

 

TEXT 28

 

geyam giitaa naama sahasram

dhyeyam shriipati ruupamajasram

neyam sajjana sange chittam

deyam diinajanaaya cha vittam

 

Regularly recite from the Gita, meditate on Vishnu in your heart, and chant His thousand glories. Take delight to be with the noble and the holy. Distribute your wealth in charity to the poor and the needy.

 

TEXT 29

 

sukhatah kriyate raamaabhogah

pashchaaddhanta shariire rogah

yadyapi loke maranam sharanam

tadapi na mujnchati paapaacharanam

 

He who yields to lust for pleasure leaves his body a prey to disease. Though death brings an end to everything, man does not gives up the sinful path.

 

TEXT 30

 

arthamanartham bhaavaya nityam

naastitatah sukhaleshah satyam

putraadapi dhana bhaajaam bhiitih

sarvatraishhaa vihiaa riitih

 

Wealth is not welfare, truly there is no joy in it. Reflect thus at all times. A rich man fears even his own son. This is the way of wealth everywhere.

 

TEXT 31

 

praanaayaamam pratyaahaaram

nityaanitya vivekavichaaram

jaapyasameta samaadhividhaanam

kurvavadhaanam mahadavadhaanam

 

Regulate the pranas, remain unaffected by external influences and discriminate between the real and the fleeting. Chant the holy name of God and silence the turbulent mind. Perform these with care, with extreme care.

 

TEXT 32

 

gurucharanaambuja nirbhara bhakatah

samsaaraadachiraadbhava muktah

sendriyamaanasa niyamaadevam

drakshyasi nija hridayastham devam

 

Oh devotee of the lotus feet of the Guru! May thou be soon free from Samsara. Through disciplined senses and controlled mind, thou shalt come to experience the indwelling Lord of your heart!

 

TEXT 33

 

muudhah kashchana vaiyaakarano

dukrijnkaranaadhyayana dhurinah

shriimachchhamkara bhagavachchhishhyai

bodhita aasichchhodhitakaranah

 

Thus was a silly grammarian lost in rules cleansed of his narrow vision and shown the Light by Shankara's apostles.

 

TEXT 34

 

bhajagovindam bhajagovindam

govindam bhajamuudhamate

naamasmaranaadanyamupaayam

nahi pashyaamo bhavatarane

 

Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool! Other than chanting the Govinda's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean.

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

-Gokul

 

...krishnam vande jagad gurum...

 

 

 

[gokulkr]

Listen to Adi Shankara First.

Below words are sung by Adi Shankara himself.

 

Note : Adi shankara is incarnation of Lord Shiva itself.

 

TEXT 1

 

bhajagovindam bhajagovindam

govindam bhajamuudhamate

sampraapte sannihite kaale

nahi nahi rakshati dukrijnkarane

 

Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death.

 

TEXT 2

 

mudha jahiihi dhanaagamatrishhnaam

kuru sadbuddhim manasi vitrishhnaam

yallabhase nijakarmopaattam

vittam tena vinodaya chittam

 

Oh fool! Give up your thrist to amass wealth, devote your mind to thoughts to the Real. Be content with what comes through actions already performed in the past.

 

TEXT 3

 

naariistanabhara naabhiidesham

drishhtvaa maagaamohaavesham

etanmaamsaavasaadi vikaaram

manasi vichintaya vaaram vaaram

 

Do not get drowned in delusion by going wild with passions and lust by seeing a woman's navel and chest. Bodies are flesh, fat and blood. Do not fail to remember this again and again in your mind.

 

TEXT 4

 

naliniidalagata jalamatitaralam

tadvajjiivitamatishayachapalam

viddhi vyaadhyabhimaanagrastam

lokam shokahatam cha samastam

 

Uncertain is the life of man as rain drops on a lotus leaf. Know that the whole world remains a prey to disease, ego and grief.

 

TEXT 5

 

yaavadvittopaarjana saktah

staavannija parivaaro raktah

pashchaajjiivati jarjara dehe

vaartaam koapi na prichchhati gehe

 

So long as a man is fit and able to support his family, see the affection all those around him show. But no one at home cares to even have a word with him when his body totters due to old age.

 

TEXT 6

 

yaavatpavano nivasati dehe

taavatprichchhati kushalam gehe

gatavati vaayau dehaapaaye

bhaaryaa bibhyati tasminkaaye

 

When one is alive, his family members enquire kindly about his welfare. But when the soul departs from the body, even his wife runs away in fear of the corpse.

 

TEXT 7

 

baalastaavatkriidaasaktah

tarunastaavattaruniisaktah

vriddhastaavachchintaasaktah

pare brahmani koapi na saktah

 

Childhood is lost in play. Youth is lost by attachment to woman. Old age passes away by thinking over many past things. Alas! hardly is there anyone who yearns to be lost in Parabrahman.

 

TEXT 8

 

kaate kaantaa kaste putrah

samsaaro.ayamatiiva vichitrah

kasya tvam kah kuta aayaatah

tattvam chintaya tadiha bhraatah

 

Who is your wife? Who is your son? Strange is this samsara. Of whom are you? Where have you come from? Brother, ponder over these truths.

 

TEXT 9

 

satsangatve nissngatvam

nissangatve nirmohatvam

nirmohatve nishchalatattvam

nishcalatattve jiivanmuktih

 

From Satsanga comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settledness comes Jivan Mukti.

 

TEXT 10

 

vayasigate kah kaamavikaarah

shushhke niire kah kaasaarah

kshiinevitte kah parivaarah

gyaate tattve kah samsaarah

 

What good is lust when youth has fled? What use is a lake which has no water? Where are the relatives when wealth is gone? Where is samsara when the Truth is known?

 

TEXT 11

 

maa kuru dhana jana yauvana garvam

harati nimeshhaatkaalah sarvam

maayaamayamidamakhilaM hitvaa

brahmapadaM tvaM pravisha viditvaa

 

Do not boast of wealth, friends, and youth. Each one of these are destroyed within a minute. Free yourself from the illusion of the world of Maya and attain the timeless Truth.

 

TEXT 12

 

dinayaaminyau saayam praatah

shishiravasantau punaraayaatah

kaalah kriidati gachchhatyaayuh

tadapi na mujncatyaashaavaayuh

 

Daylight and darkness, dusk and dawn, winter and springtime come and go. Time plays and life ebbs away. But the storm of desire never leaves.

 

TEXT 13

 

dvaadashamajnjarikaabhirasheshhah

kathito vaiyaakaranasyaishhah

upadesho bhuudvidyaanipunaih

shriimachchhankarabhagavachchharanarih

 

This bouquet of twelve verses was imparted to a grammarian by the all-knowing Shankara, adored as the bhagavadpada.

 

TEXT 14

 

kaate kaantaa dhana gatachintaa

vaatula kim tava naasti niyantaa

trijagati sajjanasam gatiraikaa

bhavati bhavaarnavatarane naukaa

 

Oh mad man! Why this engrossment in thoughts of wealth? Is there no one to guide you? There is only one thing in three worlds that can save you from the ocean from samsara. Get into that boat of satsangha quickly.

 

TEXT 15

 

jatilo mundii lujnchhitakeshah

kaashhaayaambarabahukritaveshhah

pashyannapi cana pashyati muudhah

udaranimittam bahukritaveshhah

 

There are many who go with matted locks, many who have clean shaven heads, many whose hairs have been plucked out; some are clothed in saffron, yet others in various colors --- all just for a livelihood. Seeing truth revealed before them, still the foolish ones see it not.

 

TEXT 16

 

angam galitam palitam mundam

dashanavihiinam jatam tundam

vriddho yaati grihiitvaa dandam

tadapi na mujncatyaashaapindam

 

Strength has left the old man's body; his head has become bald, his gums toothless and leaning on crutches. Even then the attachment is strong and he clings firmly to fruitless hope.

 

TEXT 17

 

agre vahnih prishhthebhaanuh

raatrau chubukasamarpitajaanuh

karatalabhikshastarutalavaasah

tadapi na mujncatyaashaapaashah

 

Behold there lies the man who sits warming up his body with the fire in front and the sun at the back; at night he curls up the body to keep out of the cold; he eats his beggar's food from the bowl of his hand and sleeps beneath the tree. Still in his heart, he is a wretched puppet at the hands of passions.

 

TEXT 18

 

kurute gangaasaagaragamanam

vrataparipaalanamathavaa daanam

gyaanavihinah sarvamatena

muktim na bhajati janmashatena

 

One may go to the Ganga, observe fasts, and give away riches in charity! Yet, devoid of jnana, nothing can give mukthi even at the end of a hundred births.

 

TEXT 19

 

sura mandira taru muula nivaasah

shayyaa bhuutala majinam vaasah

sarva parigraha bhoga tyaagah

kasya sukham na karoti viraagah

 

Take your residence in a temple or below a tree, wear the deerskin for the dress, and sleep with mother earth as your bed. Give up all attachments and renounce all comforts. Blessed with such vairagya, could any fail to be content?

 

TEXT 20

 

yogarato vaabhogaratovaa

sangarato vaa sangaviihinah

yasya brahmani ramate chittam

nandati nandati nandatyeva

 

One may take delight in yoga or bhoga, may have attachment or detachment. But only he whose mind steadily delights in Brahman enjoys bliss, no one else.

 

TEXT 21

 

bhagavad giitaa kijnchidadhiitaa

gangaa jalalava kanikaapiitaa

sakridapi yena muraari samarchaa

kriyate tasya yamena na charchaa

 

Let a man read but a little from the Gita, drink just a drop of water from the Ganga, worship Murari just once. He then will have no altercation with Yama.

 

TEXT 22

 

punarapi jananam punarapi maranam

punarapi jananii jathare shayanam

iha samsaare bahudustaare

kripayaa apaare paahi muraare

 

Born again, death again, birth again to stay in the mother's womb ! It is indeed hard to cross this boundless ocean of samsara. Oh Murari ! Redeem me through Thy mercy.

 

TEXT 23

 

rathyaa charpata virachita kanthah

punyaapunya vivarjita panthah

yogii yoganiyojita chitto

ramate baalonmattavadeva

 

There is no shortage of clothing for a monk so long as there are rags cast off the road. Freed from vice and virtue, onward he wanders. One who lives in communion with God enjoys bliss, pure and uncontaminated, like a child and as someone intoxicated.

 

TEXT 24

 

kastvam ko.aham kuta aayaatah

kaa me jananii ko me taatah

iti paribhaavaya sarvamasaaram

vishvam tyaktvaa svapna vichaaram

 

Who are you? Who am I? From where do I come? Who is my mother, who is my father? Ponder thus, look at everything as essenceless and give up the world as an idle dream.

 

TEXT 25

 

tvayi mayi chaanyatraiko vishhnuh

vyartham kupyasi mayyasahishhnuh

bhava samachittah sarvatra tvam

vaajnchhasyachiraadyadi vishhnutvam

 

In me, in you and in everything, none but the same Vishnu dwells. Your anger and impatience is meaningless. If you wish to attain the quality of Vishnu soon, have Sama Bhaava always.

 

TEXT 26

 

shatrau mitre putre bandhau

maa kuru yatnam vigrahasandhau

sarvasminnapi pashyaatmaanam

sarvatrotsrija bhedaagyaanam

 

Do not waste your efforts to win the love of or to fight against friend and foe, children and relatives. See yourself in everyone and give up all feelings of duality completely.

 

TEXT 27

 

kaamam krodham lobham moham

tyaktvaa atmaanam bhaavaya ko aham

aatmagyaana vihiinaa muudhaah

te pachyante narakaniguudhaah

 

Give up lust, anger, infatuation, and greed. Ponder over your real nature. Fools are they who are blind to the Self. Cast into hell they suffer there endlessly.

 

TEXT 28

 

geyam giitaa naama sahasram

dhyeyam shriipati ruupamajasram

neyam sajjana sange chittam

deyam diinajanaaya cha vittam

 

Regularly recite from the Gita, meditate on Vishnu in your heart, and chant His thousand glories. Take delight to be with the noble and the holy. Distribute your wealth in charity to the poor and the needy.

 

TEXT 29

 

sukhatah kriyate raamaabhogah

pashchaaddhanta shariire rogah

yadyapi loke maranam sharanam

tadapi na mujnchati paapaacharanam

 

He who yields to lust for pleasure leaves his body a prey to disease. Though death brings an end to everything, man does not gives up the sinful path.

 

TEXT 30

 

arthamanartham bhaavaya nityam

naastitatah sukhaleshah satyam

putraadapi dhana bhaajaam bhiitih

sarvatraishhaa vihiaa riitih

 

Wealth is not welfare, truly there is no joy in it. Reflect thus at all times. A rich man fears even his own son. This is the way of wealth everywhere.

 

TEXT 31

 

praanaayaamam pratyaahaaram

nityaanitya vivekavichaaram

jaapyasameta samaadhividhaanam

kurvavadhaanam mahadavadhaanam

 

Regulate the pranas, remain unaffected by external influences and discriminate between the real and the fleeting. Chant the holy name of God and silence the turbulent mind. Perform these with care, with extreme care.

 

TEXT 32

 

gurucharanaambuja nirbhara bhakatah

samsaaraadachiraadbhava muktah

sendriyamaanasa niyamaadevam

drakshyasi nija hridayastham devam

 

Oh devotee of the lotus feet of the Guru! May thou be soon free from Samsara. Through disciplined senses and controlled mind, thou shalt come to experience the indwelling Lord of your heart!

 

TEXT 33

 

muudhah kashchana vaiyaakarano

dukrijnkaranaadhyayana dhurinah

shriimachchhamkara bhagavachchhishhyai

bodhita aasichchhodhitakaranah

 

Thus was a silly grammarian lost in rules cleansed of his narrow vision and shown the Light by Shankara's apostles.

 

TEXT 34

 

bhajagovindam bhajagovindam

govindam bhajamuudhamate

naamasmaranaadanyamupaayam

nahi pashyaamo bhavatarane

 

Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool! Other than chanting the Govinda's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean.

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

-Gokul

 

...krishnam vande jagad gurum...

 

 

 

[Chitta]

I read the entire thread on the matter, and I cannot help but be amused by the warped views of some of Vaishnavites who believe in the antiquated and sectarian misinformation that Lord Vishnu is, indeed, the Supreme Godhead Personality.

 

 

WHAT CAUSED THEIR IGNORANCE?

 

This is the result of their absymal lack of scriptural knowledge. I can bet my bottom dollar that none of those who so lavishly quoted chapters and verses from the puranas and Hindu texts has ever read their quoted scriptures in their entirety (in their original form). <font color="red"> The ISKCON's knowledge of the scriptures is pathetically circumscribed within the books written by Srila Prabhupada.</font color> They merely parrot what their so-called 'Archarya' (or 'Uttama-Adikari') has propounded, and they regurgigate his wrong teachings here without verifying the truths.

 

 

MY CREDENTIALS

 

Before I could be suspected of vilifying a personality whom the great majority of the ISKCON members religiously believe to be the messiah straight from Goloka or Krsna Loka, let me state my credentials first: before I came to know the Hare Krsnas about two decades ago, I had had met an innumerable group of spiritual men and women of differing and diverse persuasions. Finally, when I met the ISKCON people, I felt that I had met the right society. I started practising their teachings, read all of Prabhupada's books, devoured Srimad Bagavatam, the Simad Bagavad Gita (As It is), and a score of other works of the founder and his coterie. Along the way, as I intensified my sadana, got deeper into the practices, I discovered that there was something seriously wrong with the Hare Krsnas' teachings.

 

 

MY SEARCH

 

I delved into their books; studied the scriptures dutifully; whenever I had the opportunity, I made comparisons between Prabhupada's and his god-brothers' discourses and expositions. That is when I discovered a lot more about ISKCON's (and even Vaishnava's) grave misunderstanding of Sanatana Dharma, and their unpardonable nescience of the Hindu scriptures.

 

During this time, I studied Sanskrit, boned up on the Upanisads, Vedas, Upa-Puranas, Agamas, etc. I found an unforgiveable lacuna in the ISKCON teachings. To begin with, Prabhupada's Bhagavad, As It Is is never 'as it claimed to be': there were very serious misinterpretations, interpolations, misrepresentations, canards and bigotry.

 

 

TEMPLE PRESIDENTS AND ISKCON GURUS

 

I had, therefore, met many Temple presidents, senior members and even the Gurus. Tamal Krishna Maharaj, Jayapadaka Maharaj, Gorvinda Maharaj are among the many gurus I met. I discussed with them the Vedas, the Ramayan, Samhitas, Agamas and the philosophical differences between Dwaita, Vishsista-Advaita and Advaitam. I was dismayed more than flummoxed that these people, who are supposed to be the repository of knowledge and the bastions of their 'Archaryas' teachings displayed enormous ignorance.

They were like the Christians --- gita-thumpers, who quoted verses after verse, without the slightest comprehension of what the background to the scriptures.

 

As you would have guessed by now, I made the decision, which I have, to this day, been proud to have done, to leave the movement for a Guru, who would put me back on the right track. Thanks to Krsna, I met the right Guru and I am now home and dry.

 

 

PRABHUPADA'S TEACHINGS: THE FAULTS

 

Prabhupada had merely resurrected the frail, hoary ghost of the "Vaishnava/Shaivite" war. Of course, some members who read this would take up the cudgels for their founder and challenge me to prove my assertions. I have come prepared, hence, I shall be more than glad to do justice to the task that I have undertaken here. But please allow me to pilot you through my arguments so that you would be able to see where I am coming from.

 

 

CARDINAL PURPOSE

 

My primary task now is to dismantle the Vaishnavites' brittle argument here. i.e., that Lord Vishnu/Lord Krsna is the Supreme, and that all others (espcially Lord Shiva) are his subordinates.

 

I shall, for this purpose, take on those people with the most egregious notions:

 

1. That the Puranas Tell All

 

The Vaishanavites here quoted the puranas so liberally to prove that the Shaivite religion is wrong about their belief that Lord Shiva is Lord Vishnu's equal. Their cocksureness, in this case, merely showed how much that they have understood the Puranas and Veda Vyasa's compilation. They were, as the informed readers would have clearly seen, under the delusion that only the Vishnu puranas spoke of 'supremacy'. Little did they guess that the other puranas too have their mention of who the 'supreme' is.

 

When one of the readers pointed out their ignorance, one of the Vaishnavites promptly said that the Shaivite puranas were 'written' by the Shaivites. It was, seriously, a terrible slap in his own face. It merely revealed that he did not even know the history of the puranas. If he had known that it was Krishna Dwaipanya Veda Vyasa (who is none other than Krsna Himself) who had compiled the major puranas, he would not have braved making that statement.

 

One of them, who pooh-poohed puranas extolling Lord Shiva, relegating them to 'written by Shaivites' category, praised the Kantha Purana. Evidently, he did not know that it was in Kantha Purana that Lord Vishnu's so-called subservient position to Lord shiva has been mentioned.

 

One of them, sensing that the Vaishnavites here were losing in their arguments to the Shaivites as regards the issue of 'puranas', quickly said that 'oh, the Shiva puranas are deemed to be in Tasmasic mood, hence, we should not attach any importance to them' [paraphrased by this author]. Again, this shows that writer's crass ignorance. He did not, evidently, understand what the scholars meant when they said that the puranas are classified broadly under the 3 gunas.

 

2. Bhaja Govindam

 

One of the Vaishnavites, in his earnestness to show that Shankara Acharya had written something in praise of Lord Govinda, posted his message twice. This is one of those ISKCON/Hare Krsnas' twice-told spiels --- the typical christian-type verbal gymnastic and antics. Quoting anything out of context would render even the holiest darn obscene, and the gross may pass off as 'divine'. Oh yes, the Pujya Parama guru did, indeed, sing praises of Lord Govinda, just in the same way as he had sung praises of Lord Shanmuka, Lord Ganesha, Lord Surya, Mother Durga, Lord Shiva. The mischievous reader who bothered to quote the Govindam in its entirety had, purposefully, neglected to quote the Archaryas other works in praise of other Avatars.

 

If only the Vaishnavites here had bothered to study the scriptures on their own, instead of relying on what they had been brainwashed to believe, they would be much better.

 

I stop here for responses. I shall deal with the arguments blow by blow. (What I have said here, heretofore, is just the introduction to my effort at proving the Vaishnavites here wrong. More to come).

[Guest guest]

seems a strange endeavor to moi .

 

its not just gaudiya vaisnavas who accept visnu as god,

its 85% of the "hindu" population who are vaisnavas.

 

so ,to put it mildly if you want to prove 1 billion people

wrong,remember no one has succeeded as of yet.

good luck with that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Chitta]

I too accept Lord Vishnu as 'God'. I am not saying He is not. He is as God as much as Lord Shiva is. That's my point.

[gokulkr]

Hey we know that all puranas including "SAivaite puranas" are compiled by Veda Vysasa itself.

 

After compiling the puranas, loed vyasa divided the 18 puranas in to three categories : satvic (good), rajasic (passion) & tamasic (ignorance).

 

Heres the quote given By Lord Veda Vyasa himself stating that some puranas as satvic, some as rajasic & some as tamasic.

 

Vaishnavam Naaradeeyam Cha thatha Bhagavatham Shubham Garudam Cha thatha Paadmam Varaaham Shubha Darshane ShaDeThani Puranaani Saathvikaani Mathaani why Bramhaandam BrahmaVaivartham Maarkaandaiyam thathaiva cha BhavidhshyadhVaamanam Braamham Raajasaani Nibhodhamae Maathsyam Kourmam thatha Laingam Shaivam Skaandam Thathaiva cha AagnaeYam cha ShaDethani Thaamasa NirayaPradaha

 

From the quote it is clear that -

Bhagavatha Purana, Padma Purana, Vishnu Purana, Garuda Purana, Narada Purana & Varah Purana come under "Satvic".

 

Those who want to realise "God" should only consdier satvic puranas. In all satvic puranas, "Lord Krishna / Lord Vishnu" is considered supreme.

 

If our brain cant takes this, then ure under tamasic (ignorance).

 

So if you ignorantly hang on your tamasic view that Lord Shiva is supreme, we are least bothered.

 

If you still want to worship "Shiva as supreme" then you can worship, since no is compelling you to worship Lord Vishnu as supreme.

 

Moreover reason of "Quoting" Bhaja govindam is that "shaivatees dont consider Lord Ramanuja / Lord Chaitanya's views". But u people respect "lord adi shankara"

. Since lord adi shankara itself proclaimed in "bhaja govindam" that Lord Govinda is supreme, we quoted "bhaja govindam".

 

If we have quoted Lord Desikar's Desika Prabhandam, u people will just reject it. so we quoted "Bhaja govindam" in this thread to tell even "Adi shankar"accpeted Govinda.