Supreme person or Avatar

[animesh]

I have a doubt. I have read that Krishna is the supreme personality of Godhead and he has got many plenary expansions, including Vishnu. In fact, Vishnu is not the direct plenary expansion of Krishna because there are some more like Maha Vishnu in between. I have also read that Krishna is Vishnu's avatar.

Which of these is true? This question may sound very silly to you, but I felt that this was an authoritative site to clarify my doubt.

[Gauracandra]

I personally am unable to answer your question as I don't understand all of the intricacies involved. Different schools have different thoughts on this issue. However, I was recently reading a beautiful publication called "Sri Krsna-Kathamrta" which is published by the disciples of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami.

 

This particular issue describes the various kinds of relationships the soul can have with the Lord. He mentions that those who view the Lord in awe and reverence worship Visnu, while those that disregard the Lords opulence and worship him with spontaneous love, see him as Govinda. I wish this publication were online so you can read the whole thing.

 

The following are a few excerpts:

 

"Philosphically there is no difference between Rama and Krsna. Krsna has many forms:

 

Avatara hy asankhyena

Hareh sattva-nidher dvijah

athavidasinah kulyah

sarasah syuh sahasrasah

 

The incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhausible sources of water.

 

In Brahma-samhita it is said,

 

Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya

Dipayate vivrta-hetu-samana-dharma

yas tadrg eva hi ca visnutaya vibhati

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

There is only one original lamp, from that original lamp many other lamps are coming and giving the same light. There is no difference between them. Similarly, there is no difference between avatara and avatari. Krsna is the one original lamp, mula-dipa-eka, and His avataras are asankhya, innumerable. Krsna is avatari, the source of all incarnations.

 

Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan

Nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu

Krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo

Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rama, Nrsimha and also many sub-incarnations, but who is the original personality of Godhead known as Krsna, who also incarnates personally."

 

I don't know if I fully answered your question. I know I read recently a sanskrit verse that says that in His original form God (Krsna) has two hands like a man (as opposed to four like Visnu). This would indicate to me that Visnu is an expansion of Krsna. I searched around but couldn't find where I had read that verse. Again, different schools will have different interpretations.

 

Gauracandra

 

[viji_53]

Lord Vishnu is the ultimate Supreme God. He took many avatars in which two avatars are very important. They are Rama & Krishna. Act like Rama & do what Krishna said. That is what we learn from these two avatars. Krishna's devotees like Krishna's form more than Vishnu. There is nothing wrong in that as Both Vishnu & Krishna are the same Supreme God. Lord Vishnu has many names like Hari, Govinda, Krishna etc. In what ever name you call Him, He will hear you. Our Hindu Dharma says Vishnu Sahasranama is great because It is approved by Lord Krishna Himself. Vishnu sahasranama(1000 Names) was composed by Bhishma in front of Lord Krishna at the battle field and was told to Yudishtira where Krishna approved It by nodding His head as & when told by Bheeshma.

Hari Bhol!

[animesh]

I have read about Maha Vshnu, Garbhodhakshayi Vishnu, Kshirodhakshayi Vishnu and Vishnu. (Please forgive me for any spelling mistake). Are all of these Vishnus the same supreme God? I mean, do they have the same attributes?

One more question: In the reply to one of the questions (not posted by me), you had talked about Ansh and Avatar. I could not understand the difference between them very clearly.

[viji_53]

All the names of Vishnus are names of same Supreme God Vishnu. Kshirashayi means one who is sleeping in Oean of Milk. The another name you mentioned is Vishnu carrying Brahma in his naval.

Amsa is Person who takes birth with divine qualities of Vishnu & avatar is when God Himself takes a form in the earth for the sake of His devotees.

[shvu]

 

The Supreme power is known as Narayana. Everything springs forth from him. He is said to take birth on Earth from time to time for restoring Dharma and stability.

 

At the end of the Dwapara Yuga, he took birth as Krishna. This is considered as a special Avatara by many people. Narayana is said to have come down in his original form. Krishna Avatara is also called as Poorna Avatara (The complete Incarnation).

 

The point of Krishna's Death is said to be the beginning of the Kali Yuga. (3102 BC)

[viji_53]

I fully agree with you Narayana is the ParamoDevata(ultimate supreme God). Vishnu is one of His names. He has infinite names. Bheeshma gave thousand names of Narayana to Yudhishtira in presence of Krishna who is also Narayana's or Vishnu's avatar.

[animesh]

Somewhere, in this site itslef, I read that Maha Vishnu is a portion of portion of Krishna. If that is the case, then how can Krishna be an Avatar of Vishnu? Whole can not be an avatar of part!

[shvu]

 

The devotees of Krishna see Krishna as Narayana, the source of everything. That is the reason for this confusion.

[nitai]

Visnu is an incarnation of Krishna.

 

This is what Lord Brahma stated:

isvarah paramah krsna

 

I could provide you with a beautiful explanation by Jiva Goswami where he proves that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I will do when time admits.

 

What you read is completely true animesh-ji.

 

I'll get back to you

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Vishnu actually refers to a category known as Vishnu-tattva, or the category of God. There are many definitions of the name Vishnu, but the basic is "He who has entered everywhere", in reference to God's omnipresence as the paramatma. Within the category of Vishnu-tattva are included all of the unlimited incarnations and expansions of God.

 

There are some expansions that also bear the particular name "Vishnu", three of which you have mentioned, the Kshirodakasayi Vishnu, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, and the Karanadakasayi Vishnu.

 

The Karanodakasayi Vishnu is the first Purusha avatar who is lying on the causal ocean (karana-udaka). From him the innumerable universes manifest as he exhales. And into Him the universes are destroyed as He inhales.

 

He expands into each universal shell as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. This Vishnu is lying on the universal waters then originate from His persperation, and which fill the universe half way. In his navel is a lake, and from that lake grows a lotus stem. Lord Brahma is born within that lotus. Inside the stem of the lotus are the fourteen planetary systems.

 

This Vishnu expands as Kshirodakasayi Vishnu who resides in Sveta Dvipa on the milk ocean. This planet is actually a Vaikuntha planet that the Lord manifests within the material universe. In reality it is more like a window through material covering, which allows one to see a portion of the spiritual realm. It is an eternal abode, and it continues to exist even after the destruction of the universe.

 

This third purusha avatara is whom we commonly refer to as Vishnu in reference to the trinity - Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. It is this form of Vishnu who expands as paramatma within everyone's heart.

 

The system of the Lord's incarnations is that all incarnations come through the form of Kshirodakasayi Vishnu in sveta-dvipa. Lord Brahma along with the devas stand on the shore of the milk ocean and pray to the Lord to incarnate. They are not able to see the Lord, but Lord Brahma receives confirmation from within his heart.

 

Factually there is no difference between one Vishnu form and another, as they all belong to the same category of Vishnu-tattva - the Supreme Person. Krishna is not a different personality from Rama, and Rama is not a different personality from Narayana. They are one and the same. The only difference is in what they choose to manifest to their devotees.

 

We can understand this from a simple example. A man is having a wife and children. When the man is addressed by the wife, he acts in a particular way. When the child approaches the father, he acts in yet another way. And when the workers under him approach him, he responds in a completely different way. Thus one personality is taking three forms according to the people whom he is interacting with. The office manager is not a different person from the husband, nor from the father, yet they act completely different. The supreme category of Vishnu-tattva takes different appearances according to the mood of the devotees approaching him. There is no higher and lower capacity among the expansions and forms of God. But some forms of God choose to withhold certain aspects of their oppulences.

 

[animesh]

Thank you, jndas ji.

Now my doubts are really clarified.

[ggohil]

In Bhagavad Gita chapter 10, text 9, Sri Krsna states " I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds, Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

 

Based on foregoing, perhaps it is clear that Sri Krsna is the original source.

[Guest guest]

An example is given of the Supreme Court judge. The judge is feared adn respected in the court while at home, his family treats him with love and affection with no awe or fear. Krsna and Lord Narayana are the same person, just in different capacities. I'm not sure if this same example can be applied to Krsna and Visnu because as someone pointed out, Lord Visnu isn't a direct expansion of Krsna but the expansion of an expansion. Is this correct?

 

 

I personally am unable to answer your question as I don't understand all of the intricacies involved. Different schools have different thoughts on this issue. However, I was recently reading a beautiful publication called "Sri Krsna-Kathamrta" which is published by the disciples of Srila Gaur Govinda Swami.

 

This particular issue describes the various kinds of relationships the soul can have with the Lord. He mentions that those who view the Lord in awe and reverence worship Visnu, while those that disregard the Lords opulence and worship him with spontaneous love, see him as Govinda. I wish this publication were online so you can read the whole thing.

 

The following are a few excerpts:

 

"Philosphically there is no difference between Rama and Krsna. Krsna has many forms:

 

Avatara hy asankhyena

Hareh sattva-nidher dvijah

athavidasinah kulyah

sarasah syuh sahasrasah

 

The incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhausible sources of water.

 

In Brahma-samhita it is said,

 

Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya

Dipayate vivrta-hetu-samana-dharma

yas tadrg eva hi ca visnutaya vibhati

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

There is only one original lamp, from that original lamp many other lamps are coming and giving the same light. There is no difference between them. Similarly, there is no difference between avatara and avatari. Krsna is the one original lamp, mula-dipa-eka, and His avataras are asankhya, innumerable. Krsna is avatari, the source of all incarnations.

 

Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan

Nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu

Krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo

Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rama, Nrsimha and also many sub-incarnations, but who is the original personality of Godhead known as Krsna, who also incarnates personally."

 

I don't know if I fully answered your question. I know I read recently a sanskrit verse that says that in His original form God (Krsna) has two hands like a man (as opposed to four like Visnu). This would indicate to me that Visnu is an expansion of Krsna. I searched around but couldn't find where I had read that verse. Again, different schools will have different interpretations.

 

Gauracandra