Apparent suffering of Devotees

[ggohil]

 

I understand:

 

a. That unalloyed devotees of Krsna are very dear to him (Krsna).

b. That Krsna can not tolerate suffering of his close devotees.

c. That Krsna is partial to his devotees. We use this special relationship of Krsna and his devotees to our personal advantage. e.g. 1. Offering food to Guru first and then to Krsna, knowing full well that offering made by Guru (unalloyed devotee) to Krsna will always be accepted. 2. Blessings given by Guru (specially when one has done nothing to earn it) are very important because Krsna will owner Guru's blessing merely out of love for his devotees.

d. That to learn and understand the spiritual truth about Krsna we will need his blessing at every step of the way. Thus, blessing would come more readily from Krsna if one was to receive instructions from a Guru. (plus learning from a Guru is always easier)

e. Offences committed against Guru are of very serious nature in this world and in the spiritual world.

 

Such is the constituently position of a Guru.

 

In view of this it becomes difficult to understand why would A. C. Prabhupada had to tolerate such hardship in his early days in USA. ( for example A. C. Prabhupada experienced two heart attacks on his first voyage to USA)

 

I also understand that we will never be wise enough to fully understand Lord's plans for us. Since, Krsna is perfect in every way, his actions are perfect in everyway. Any difficulty experienced in understanding his actions is nothing but an indication of our ignorance.

 

Please comment.

 

Hari Bole.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

There is a very nice video tape series called "Memories of Prabhupada" which is basically a compilation of many devotee's memories/thoughts of Srila Prabhupada. On number 27 Shyamasundar tells of how Prabhupada once told him that (and this is paraphrasing of course) "The more one has faith in Krsna, the bigger risks one will take for Krsna. And because one does this, Krsna must, HE HAS NO CHOICE, help his devotee. Krsna will personally come down to help his devotee. He is bound by the love of his devotee."

 

Now suppose Krsna made everything real easy. In this scenario, Prabhupada gets on board a private Lear jet, flys to America. Is given a beautiful house in which to stay. He only associates with the "upper crust" of society. And within a few years Vaisnavism is a major religion in America, with converts from Beverly Hills to the White House.

 

Now is that very inspiring? To me not really. It is the struggles we encounter in our lives that strengthen our love for Krsna. By seeing the risks, real risks, that Prabhupada endured it gives us faith, and perhaps strengthens our resolve to take our minor risks.

 

All of the great saints have taken risks. At times, based on our limited vision of God's ultimate plan, we may misunderstand the circumstances. However, this risk is necessary to truly love God. The pain endured due to separation from God simply makes the union all the more sweet.

 

Gauracandra

 

[viji_53]

Suk or duk is not given to anybody by some other person. It is due to our past karma. Nobody can escape the fate. God gives His devotees strength to face the sufferings. Everything happens for the best. If we think suk or duk is given by somebody we will love or hate that person respectively. It is unnecessary attachment which is against Gita(KRISHNA's teachings).

[nitai]

well, Prabhupada was not subject to his karma, because he was a pure devotee of Krsna. He did devotional service which is akarma, what is considered as no action.

 

I heard a nice description of H.H. Bhakti Charu Swami, during the Sunday feast lecture at Sri Sri Radha Gopinath Mandir he gave a example of how even though devotees have

inconvenience it is still happiness for them since it is coming from the Lord and the example he gave was that when the father is playing with the

child he sometimes throws the child up in the air playfully and for a moment

the child undergoes some anxiety but very soon the child is back in the

father's hands and soon the child and the father both are laughing. Thus,

when Krishna gives us some so-called disturbance in our life it is for the

pleasure of the Lord and to increase our love for Him."

 

I completely agree with Gaurachandra Prabhu.

[viji_53]

Only Lord Krishna is unaffected by karma. Others whether devotee or not are subject to past karma. Even RamakrishnaParamahamsa who saw Goddess Durga face to face had throat cancer. The more sufferings you undergo tne nearer you go to God. He tests us by giving sufferings. If we pass that test we are progressing in the spiritual path.

[janardana prabhu]

There is no suffering in the spiritual world hence no offences are committed. In the material world the Guru is bound by the karmic activities of the disciples. It is not nessasary to take on such a burden, but a devotee does so if he thinks it will please KRSNA. The bliss in the material world is a mixture of love and compassion. Even if you know your disiples are fools. The pure devotee will always remain a bridge between the spirtual and material worlds. this type of suffering is not material suffering. Material suffering is illusionary.

[shvu]

 

 

Material suffering is the only suffering there is. And it is not illusory. It may be illusory to some Gurus, but let us not look at exceptions. Look at the majority of mankind.

 

And when we do that, there is no way we can call it an illusion. It is as real as can be. Try telling a starving person that his pain is an illusion.

[shvu]

 

Dear ggohil,

 

As you asked for comments, here are mine.

 

a. That unalloyed devotees of Krsna are very dear to him (Krsna).

C - Nope, Krishna says in the Gita that no one is hateful or dear to him. Everyone is the same to him.

 

b. That Krsna can not tolerate suffering of his close devotees.

C - Nope, Krishna says in the Bhagavatam that the moment his grace falls on a person, he robs him of everything. The person is so distressed that, he has no choice but to turn to the Lord for relief. So if a person is suffering or in pain, it is to be understood as grace.

 

c. That Krsna is partial to his devotees. We use this special relationship of Krsna and his devotees to our personal advantage.

 

Like I said before, the causeless Supreme God cannot be partial to some and aloof to others. Being partial and to differentiate between different types of people is a human limitation.

 

While having a Guru is fine, it is not always necessary, as in the case of Shri Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi.

 

People like to think that a devotee is always safe and secure. But that is not true. A devotee is subject all the pain and miseries that a non-devotee is subject to. It is just a means of escape to think that devotion buys safety and security, which is born out of fear.

 

 

[nitai]

a. That unalloyed devotees of Krsna are very dear to him (Krsna).

C - Nope, Krishna says in the Gita that no one is hateful or dear to him. Everyone is the same to him.

 

Nitai: Krishna does say this. He says that His devotees are very dear to Him. Why? Not because He is partial, no because the devotees love Him so He reciprocates. Everyone is same to Him in the sense that we are all His children.

 

 

>b. That Krsna can not tolerate suffering of his close devotees.

C - Nope, Krishna says in the Bhagavatam that the moment his grace falls on a person, he robs him of everything. The person is so distressed that, he has no choice but to turn to the Lord for relief. So if a person is suffering or in pain, it is to be understood as grace.

 

Nitai: This verse describes not the suffering but what happens when a person turns to devotional service and progresses in devotional service. Krishna removes his/her material desires and attachment by taking away everything.

 

While having a Guru is fine, it is not always necessary, as in the case of Shri Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi.

Nitai: Accepting a guru is absolutely necessary. This is what Krishna says Himself, tad viddhi prani patena, pari prasnena sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam, jnaninas tattva darsinah.

All of our acharyas accepted a spiritual master. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu also accepted a spiritual master. One cannot reach Krishna without accepting a spiritual master.

 

[viji_53]

In Gita Krishna says His devotees are dear to Him. He also says His devotees never fall.According to Vaishnava siddanta a Guru is must to reach God. Like monkey baby which holds to its mother, we should hold to our acharya & he will take care to deliver us to God. The sufferings which devotees undergo are sufferings to the body & not to the soul. God gives strength to devotees to face & bear the sufferings. According to Gita one should not rejoice or recoil. So true devotees do not say anything when they undergo sufferings.

[nitai]

thank you very much for that comment viji_53 Prabhu. Very nice indeed

 

 

[shvu]

 

tad viddhi prani patena, pari prasnena sevaya,

upadeksyanti te jnanam, jnaninas tattva darsinah.

 

Know that through Prostation, enquiry and service, the wise will instruct you in wisdom.

 

- The Gita

 

This does not say that a Guru is compulsory. The Gita or the Bhagavatam never said that a Guru is necessary or mandatory.

 

All this stuff came after Chaitanya. He and his immediate followers turned it into a detailed hierarchical system, with various stages in between. Under the Vaishnava system, initiation from a Guru is compulsory.

 

[nitai]

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 4 Verse 34

 

Bhagavatam stresses so much on the acceptance of a spiritual master. There are innumerable quotes. Since I am at work here, and my memory isn't that good. I'll provide you with references if you like.

 

All this stuff came after Chaitanya. He and his immediate followers turned it into a detailed hierarchical system, with various stages in between. Under the Vaishnava system, initiation from a Guru is compulsory.

 

Nitai: Well there are 4 sampradayas which all come down from Krishna. It has always been like this. All the acharyas in our line where initiated. All of them. This is not fabricated by Caitanya Mahaprabhu or His followers, it already was there.

 

I am giving references whereas you have failed to do so. Please back up your arguments.

 

your servant,

[shvu]

 

Dear Nitai,

 

Nitai : Bhagavatam stresses so much on the acceptance of a spiritual master.

 

Shvu : The Bhagavatam talks about the various paths to God, and describes everyone of them. I can quote several verses, which decriber paths that don't require a Guru. My earlier statement was " A Guru is not an absolute necessity" and it still stands.

 

Nitai : There are 4 sampradayas which all come down from Krishna. It has always been like this.

 

Shvu : That is interesting, because I was not aware that Krishna started "Sampradayas". Can you give me the exact reference to the book and location where Krishna talks about Sampradayas ?

 

After we clear this doubt, I will answer your last question too.

 

[nitai]

Shvu : The Bhagavatam talks about the various paths to God, and describes everyone of them. I can quote several verses, which decriber paths that don't require a Guru. My earlier statement was " A Guru is not an absolute necessity" and it still stands.

 

Nitai: please quote. Accepting a spiritual master is absolutely necessary. Even in this material world we have different kind of gurus. Like the mother is often regarded as guru because she teaches you. But tonight (i have some free time now) I will provide you with quotes from various scriptures that say that without the guru one cannot reach Krsna's abode.

 

Shvu : That is interesting, because I was not aware that Krishna started "Sampradayas". Can you give me the exact reference to the book and location where Krishna talks about Sampradayas ?

 

Nitai: Yes I can, I'll have to look it up. But also Srila Prabhupada explained about these sampradayas. These 4 bonafide sampradayas are, Sri (Laksmi devi), Rudra (Shiva-ji), Brahma (Brahma-ji, our sampradaya) and Kumara (the four kumaras).

So our sampradaya is called Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya.

 

Shvu: After we clear this doubt, I will answer your last question too.

 

Nitai: There is no doubt I am most certain since these words are according to guru & sastra and sadhu.

 

[viji_53]

Whe you need a teacher to learn our education how can you expect to take religious path with out a guru. You need guru to initiate you. We can learn easily when there is somebody to clear our doubts.

[viji_53]

Whe you need a teacher to learn our education how can you expect to take religious path with out a guru. You need guru to initiate you. We can learn easily when there is somebody to clear our doubts.

[shvu]

 

Dear Viji,

 

I never said that having a Guru is wrong. I am saying that having a Guru is not mandatory as it is stated, in some Systems.

 

Perhaps I should make myself more clear. A Guru is a guide in any form. It could be a person or it could just be a book. It is just the information that matters, and not the medium. Where is the necessity of initiation ? Who initiated Ramana, Ramakrishna, etc ?

 

In all the 700 Verses of the Gita, there is no talk of any such thing.

 

In the early Vedic days, Spiritual knowledge was exclusive to Brahmins only. So there was this concept of Dhiksha where a person would be authorized by a Guru to start Sadhana (after verifying his Gotra, and all the stuff...). Apparently they also had no books then and everything was orally taught, which meant that a Guru was necessary.

 

But Krishna has said clearly that he is not exclusive to one set of people. He is accessible to one and all. And now we have books. So no initiation is required in any form by any Guru.

[shvu]

 

Dear Nitai,

 

Please provide me with any scriptural Quotes that state that it is impossible to reach Krishna's abode without a Guru. By Scriptural refernces, I mean anything that is from before Chaitanya's time.

 

Also any information about Krishna starting Sampradayas as you stated earlier, would be of interest to me.

 

 

 

A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego--he alone can attain real peace. - Gita 2.71

 

That is the way of the spiritual and godly life, after attaining which a man is not bewildered. If one is thus situated even at the hour of death, one can enter into the kingdom of God. - Gita 2.72

 

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The Gita has about 700 verses, where there is no talk about the necessity of a Guru. The above two verses are an example.

 

Thank you.

[shvu]

 

 

Posted by jayaShriRadheyji,

 

----

 

O Teacher of the world!

May calamities befall us at every step through eternity!

 

It is in adversity alone that we are blessed with your sight, which eliminates the possiblity of our seeing another birth.

 

---------

 

Very nice.

[shvu]

 

Hello All,

 

To clarify :

 

I am not against Chaitanya or anyone, it is just to clarify that Krishna never said that a Guru was a necessity.

 

That is my stand.

[Gauracandra]

I guess I'll chime in briefly on this topic. I don't know the sastric evidence for or against attaining the abode of Krsna without a guru. However, I would think that without a guru it would be MUCH harder.

 

It was mentioned that a guru is basically a guide and can come in the form of a person or a book. But consider this analogy for a moment. At present, thousands of athletes from around the world are competing in Australia in the Olympics. Every one, I am confident, has had a coach to train them, discipline them, and make them the best in the world. Those who are being trained by the coach can avoid mistakes that others in the past have made.

 

Now I for one can swim. But I don't think that even if I studied all the right books, on swimming technique, diet, etc... That I would be able to compete against these world class athletes. Plus I doubt that I would have the stamina, or mental resolve to stick to my "sadhana" day in and day out, atleast in the early stages. The coach keeps you on track to avoid being whimsical. When an athlete wishes to "get serious" and "up" his performance from being standard to being world class he/she will inevitably seek out the best expert in the field.

 

Given our limited lifespan (avg. 75 years on this planet) I think it would be best to find someone who has already seen the mistakes that can be made and to learn from them. It is true that we have many lives in which to attain spiritual perfection. But I think without a guide we will often stray here and there, both on and off the path, wandering in the dark.

 

There is a famous and inspiring example of the "guru-disciple" relationship in American culture. There was a woman named Helen Keller who was born both blind and deaf. She could not communicate to anyone and was a hazard to herself and others. Then one day a woman came into her life and trained her. It was extremely difficult as you can imagine. This was a woman who couldn't see or hear and had a real anger in her. But amazingly enough, after many years, this blind and deaf woman, learned to communicate and became a very productive citizen. Its been a while since I've read the story of Hellen Keller. I'm sure you can find plenty of information on her on the Internet.

 

So I think we are kind of like blind and deaf people. Perhaps "theoretically" Helen could have taught herself to communicate, after many attempts, but that would have taken her more than her lifetime to achieve.

 

Another example, in the same vein, is a friend of mine. He studied under a "guru" for 10-15 years to learn Karnatic music. I seriously doubt that someone simply reading a book, and now days listening to some tapes, could become as expert in Karnatic music as my friend.

 

Anyways, these are my thoughts.

 

Gauracandra

[nitai]

Dear shvu-ji,

 

Shvu: Please provide me with any scriptural Quotes that state that it is impossible to reach Krishna's abode without a Guru. By Scriptural refernces, I mean anything that is from before Chaitanya's time.

 

Nitai: the scriptures don't say that is it impossible to reach Krishna's abode without a spiritual master but for normal souls it is absolutely necessary to accept a spiritual master since we are conditioned souls. I have a quote from the Mandaka Upanishad (as I recall). I am at work now, but I'll post it tonight.

 

Shvu: Also any information about Krishna starting Sampradayas as you stated earlier, would be of interest to me.

 

Nitai: Yes, I was searching for this quotes, but I couldn't find it. I am going to ask some senior devotees. As I recall its from the Pancaratras. Srila Prabhupada referred it in one of his early Back to Godheads also.

 

your servant,

Nitai

 

[viji_53]

Dear Shvu,

Very few persons like Ramana Maharishi & ramakrishna Prama hamsa attained God with out Guru. They are rare souls. Even Gopikas who never had any Guru attained Krishna easily than anybody. Udava also attained Krishna with his wisdom which he got by reading scriptures. When you learn from books you may get itenllectual arrogance. Which even Udava got. The arrogance wentoff only when he met Gopikas & realized how much love they had for Krishna. It needs lots of maturity & sense control to attain God with out a teacher. If you have such maturity you need no Guru. I do not think it is that easy to control our senses all the time. Any how if you can control your senses & have the determination to attain God it will be a shorter route for you to attain God through Guru.

[shvu]

 

If a person feels that he or she should have a Physical Guru, then they should. It will be easier and helpful for them.

 

It is also said that it is the Guru, who seeks the Disciple out and not the other way around. It is divine will, that brings a Guru and disciple together, to aid in the disciple's Sadhana.

 

In my personal opinion, worship requires no knowledge and there is no specific way of doing it. All that is required is devotion, which cannot be given by others. It has to happen by itself.

 

One cannot consciously make a decision to love God. That would be born out of selfish ideas and will not be love. Love has to happen on it's own. That is when it is unconditional love, where there is no goal in mind.

 

But one can surrender one's will and desires to God. That should be possible anytime. That is what any person is capable of doing.

 

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Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are very dear to me. - The Gita 18.65

 

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So the point is, not having a physical Guru and Dhiksha should not discourage anyone. It is not a necessity.