Apparent suffering of Devotees

[shvu]

 

I would also like to add that, Devotion and worship will in no way reduce material pains. It will not avoid Heart attacks or Cancer.

 

The person's perspective of pain and suffering may change, and may help him face his problems better. Or may not.

[nitai]

Nitai: how can it be discouraging?

I mean, how do you know all these things?

 

You read the Bhagavad Gita? Yes, did you manufacture it yourself how to attain Krishna abode? No....you got this transcendental knowledge from someone. So there is always a need of a spiritual master, this is logic.

 

shvu: In my personal opinion, worship requires no knowledge and there is no specific way of doing it. All that is required is devotion, which cannot be given by others. It has to happen by itself.

 

Nitai: worship does require knowledge, how little it may be. One should know how to please the Lord. Devotion is causeless, and still is awarded by the Lord Himself or His devotees. Devotion is given through the heart of the devotees. We are all 100% Krishna consciouss, but we forgot our eternal relationship with the Lord that is why that devotion or our love for Krishna has to be awakened.

 

shvu: Devotion and worship will in no way reduce material pains

 

Nitai: Nope they won't reduce it, since we are here in this material which is a place of suffering. What it will do, is that we will transcend it and ultimately go back to godhead.

[shvu]

 

Nitai : How can it be discouraging ?

 

shvu : It can be discouraging because there are systems and Gurus , who claim that no Sadhana is possible without dhiksha from a Guru. So if anyone was to believe in them and do not have access to a Guru who can give them Dhiksha, they would certianly be discouraged.

 

 

Nitai: How do you know these things ?

shvu: What things do you mean ?

 

 

Nitai : You read the Bhagavad Gita? Yes, did you manufacture it yourself how to attain Krishna abode? No....you got this transcendental knowledge from someone. So there is always a need of a spiritual master, this is logic.

 

shvu : Sure, I said earlier that a Guru can be in the form of a book or person. So all this knowledge that I have are from books.

 

 

[nitai]

The most important thing is siksa. Which you get also from a guru. So if you got it from a book, the person who wrote it is some way your siksa guru right?

 

Anyway, sampradayas are bonafide and not sectarean since they originated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Offcourse there are socalled sects and deviations, but these are not called sampradayas, but apasampradayas.

 

sriradhe: The first created Cosmic Lord Brahma is the foremost example of attaining God without the PHYSICAL GURU.

Nitai: That is where our sampradaya started, with Lord Brahma who accepted Krishna as his spiritual master. That is why our sampradaya is called, Brahma sampradaya. Lord Brahma did not attain Krishna rightaway. He was curious who his father was and where he came from. Then he heard Omkara and started to meditate on this Om-kara. So Krishna did instruct him, by giving him Om-kara.

 

sriradhey: Every thing else is man made to divide us,the true seekers, in the name of sampradayas. More harm is being done than good by these divisions.

 

Nitai: No, the sampradayas are spiritually perfect. It is the people who forget the true purpose of the sampradaya, namely to attain God. There are different sampradayas since everyone has a different relationship with the Lord and different mood.

 

The differences in pracara and

upacara seen among the main Vaisnava sampradayas spring from the

different moods of pure devotion exhibited by the founder acharyas

of these sampradayas. Thus initiation into any one of these

lines of teaching can bring one to the platform of perfect

understanding of bhaktiyoga, regardless of variations in

doctrine or ritual.

There are four lines of disciplic succession: one from Lord

Brahma, one from Lord Siva, one from Laksmi, the goddess of

fortune, and one from the Kumaras. The disciplic succession from

Lord Brahma is called the Brahmasampradaya, the succession from

Lord Siva (Sambhu) is called the Rudra sampradaya, the one from

the goddess of fortune, Laksmiji, is called the Sri sampradaya,

and the one from the Kumaras is called the Kumara sampradaya.

One must take shelter of one these four sampradayas in order to

understand the most confidential religious system. In the Padma

Purana it is said,

sampradaya vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah

if one does not follow the four recognized disciplic successions, his mantra or initiation is useless. In the present

day there are many apasampradayas, or sampradayas which are not bona fide, which have no link to authorities like Lord Brahma,

Lord Siva, the Kumaras or Laksmi. People are misguided by such sampradayas. The sastras say that being initiated in such a

sampradaya is a useless waste of time, for it will never enable one to understand the real religious principles.

 

your servant,

Nitai

 

[nitai]

jayasriradhey: There are actually only TWO Sampradayas. One who believe in God and the other who do not believe in God.

 

Nitai: In a standard Sanskrit dictionary, the word sampradaya is defined as "genuine instruction that has been received through guru parampara or disciplic succession" (guru paramparagatu sad upadesasya). The prefix sam indicates connection, while the stem is a cognate of pradhana, "source". In the fourth chapter of Bhagavadgita, Lord Krsna declares Himself to be the original source of the transcendental science of bhakti yoga, and He confirms that one is connected to this knowledge only through guru parampara.

 

Just as a king gives protection to his citizens, these devotees, following the principles of devotional service, will give protection to all the people of the world. The people of the world are very much harassed by so-called religious-principled svamis, yogis, karmis and jnanis, but none of these can show the right way to become elevated to the spiritual platform. There are primarily four parties spreading devotional service all over the universe. These are the Ramanuja-sampradaya, the Madhva-sampradaya, the Visnusvami-sampradaya and the Nimbarka-sampradaya. The Madhva-Gaudiya-sampradaya in particular comes from Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All these devotees are spreading this Krsna consciousness movement very widely and giving protection to innocent people who are being so much embarrassed by pseudo-avataras, -svamis, -yogis and others.

SB 4/28/32)

 

[shvu]

 

Nitai : ...He confirms that one is connected to this knowledge only through guru parampara.

 

Can you please explain that ? I could not find such a statement in the Gita.

[nitai]

Chapter 4 Bhagavad Gita As It Is.

TEXT 1

sri-bhagavan uvaca

imam vivasvate yogam

proktavan aham avyayam

vivasvan manave praha

manur iksvakave 'bravit

 

WORD FOR WORD

sri-bhagavan uvaca -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; imam -- this; vivasvate -- unto the sun-god; yogam -- the science of one's relationship to the Supreme; proktavan -- instructed; aham -- I; avyayam -- imperishable; vivasvan -- Vivasvan (the sun-god's name); manave -- unto the father of mankind (of the name Vaivasvata); praha -- told; manuh -- the father of mankind; iksvakave -- unto King Iksvaku; abravit -- said.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Iksvaku.

 

PURPORT

Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gita traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the royal order of all planets. beginning from the sun planet. The kings of all planets are especially meant for the protection of the inhabitants, and therefore the royal order should understand the science of Bhagavad-gita in order to be able to rule the citizens and protect them from material bondage to lust. Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, in eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Krishna consciousness so that the people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life.

In this millennium, the sun-god is known as Vivasvan, the king of the sun, which is the origin of all planets within the solar system. In the Brahma-samhita (5.52) it is stated:

 

 

yac-caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam

raja samasta-sura-murtir asesa-tejah

yasyajnaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakro

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

"Let me worship," Lord Brahma said, "the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda [Krishna], who is the original person and under whose order the sun, which is the king of all planets, is assuming immense power and heat. The sun represents the eye of the Lord and traverses its orbit in obedience to His order."

 

The sun is the king of the planets, and the sun-god (at present of the name Vivasvan) rules the sun planet, which is controlling all other planets by supplying heat and light. He is rotating under the order of Krishna, and Lord Krishna originally made Vivasvan His first disciple to understand the science of Bhagavad-gita. The Gita is not, therefore, a speculative treatise for the insignificant mundane scholar but is a standard book of knowledge coming down from time immemorial.

 

In the Mahabharata (Santi-parva 348.51-52) we can trace out the history of the Gita as follows:

 

 

treta-yugadau ca tato

vivasvan manave dadau

manus ca loka-bhrty-artham

sutayeksvakave dadau

iksvakuna ca kathito

vyapya lokan avasthitah

 

"In the beginning of the millennium known as Treta-yuga this science of the relationship with the Supreme was delivered by Vivasvan to Manu. Manu, being the father of mankind, gave it to his son Maharaja Iksvaku, the king of this earth planet and forefather of the Raghu dynasty, in which Lord Ramacandra appeared." Therefore, Bhagavad-gita existed in human society from the time of Maharaja Iksvaku.

 

At the present moment we have just passed through five thousand years of the Kali-yuga, which lasts 432,000 years. Before this there was Dvapara-yuga (800,000 years), and before that there was Treta-yuga (1,200,000 years). Thus, some 2,005,000 years ago, Manu spoke the Bhagavad-gita to his disciple and son Maharaja Iksvaku, the king of this planet earth. The age of the current Manu is calculated to last some 305,300,000 years, of which 120,400,000 have passed. Accepting that before the birth of Manu the Gita was spoken by the Lord to His disciple the sun-god Vivasvan, a rough estimate is that the Gita was spoken at least 120,400,000 years ago; and in human society it has been extant for two million years. It was respoken by the Lord again to Arjuna about five thousand years ago. That is the rough estimate of the history of the Gita, according to the Gita itself and according to the version of the speaker, Lord Sri Krishna. It was spoken to the sun-god Vivasvan because he is also a ksatriya and is the father of all ksatriyas who are descendants of the sun-god, or the surya-vamsa ksatriyas. Because Bhagavad-gita is as good as the Vedas, being spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, this knowledge is apauruseya, superhuman. Since the Vedic instructions are accepted as they are, without human interpretation, the Gita must therefore be accepted without mundane interpretation. The mundane wranglers may speculate on the Gita in their own ways, but that is not Bhagavad-gita as it is. Therefore, Bhagavad-gita has to be accepted as it is, from the disciplic succession, and it is described herein that the Lord spoke to the sun-god, the sun-god spoke to his son Manu and Manu spoke to his son Iksvaku.

 

 

 

--

 

 

TEXT 2

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

sa kaleneha mahata

yogo nastah parantapa

 

WORD FOR WORD

evam -- thus; parampara -- by disciplic succession; praptam -- received; imam -- this science; raja-rsayah -- the saintly kings; viduh -- understood; sah -- that knowledge; kalena -- in the course of time; iha -- in this world; mahata -- great; yogah -- the science of one's relationship with the Supreme; nastah -- scattered; parantapa -- O Arjuna, subduer of the enemies.

 

 

TRANSLATION

This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost.

 

PURPORT

It is clearly stated that the Gita was especially meant for the saintly kings because they were to execute its purpose in ruling over the citizens. Certainly Bhagavad-gita was never meant for the demonic persons, who would dissipate its value for no one's benefit and would devise all types of interpretations according to personal whims. As soon as the original purpose was scattered by the motives of the unscrupulous commentators, there arose the need to reestablish the disciplic succession. Five thousand years ago it was detected by the Lord Himself that the disciplic succession was broken, and therefore He declared that the purpose of the Gita appeared to be lost. In the same way, at the present moment also there are so many editions of the Gita (especially in English), but almost all of them are not according to authorized disciplic succession. There are innumerable interpretations rendered by different mundane scholars, but almost all of them do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, although they make a good business on the words of Sri Krishna. This spirit is demonic, because demons do not believe in God but simply enjoy the property of the Supreme. Since there is a great need of an edition of the Gita in English, as it is received by the parampara (disciplic succession) system, an attempt is made herewith to fulfill this great want. Bhagavad-gita -- accepted as it is -- is a great boon to humanity; but if it is accepted as a treatise of philosophical speculations, it is simply a waste of time.

 

 

--

 

 

TEXT 3

sa evayam maya te 'dya

yogah proktah puratanah

bhakto 'si me sakha ceti

rahasyam hy etad uttamam

 

WORD FOR WORD

sah -- the same; eva -- certainly; ayam -- this; maya -- by Me; te -- unto you; adya -- today; yogah -- the science of yoga; proktah -- spoken; puratanah -- very old; bhaktah -- devotee; asi -- you are; me -- My; sakha -- friend; ca -- also; iti -- therefore; rahasyam -- mystery; hi -- certainly; etat -- this; uttamam -- transcendental.

 

 

TRANSLATION

That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science.

 

PURPORT

There are two classes of men, namely the devotee and the demon. The Lord selected Arjuna as the recipient of this great science owing to his being a devotee of the Lord, but for the demon it is not possible to understand this great mysterious science. There are a number of editions of this great book of knowledge. Some of them have commentaries by the devotees, and some of them have commentaries by the demons. Commentation by the devotees is real, whereas that of the demons is useless. Arjuna accepts Sri Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and any commentary on the Gita following in the footsteps of Arjuna is real devotional service to the cause of this great science. The demonic, however, do not accept Lord Krishna as He is. Instead they concoct something about Krishna and mislead general readers from the path of Krishna's instructions. Here is a warning about such misleading paths. One should try to follow the disciplic succession from Arjuna, and thus be benefitted by this great science of Srimad Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

 

[ggohil]

Radhey Radhey Dear Jayasriradhey

 

Thank you for the enlightment. I would also like to thank to all who contributed to this topic.

 

Hari Bole

 

Girish N. Gohil

[devarsi]

Janardana wrote that the guru is bound by the karma of His disciples....

 

 

Only a so called guru is, not a mahabhagavad Guru like Srila Prabhupada.

 

A pure devotee burnes up the sinful reactions He accepts from His disciples in the fire of His devotional service, He is never bound by them.

 

Someone who can not do this, with other words a false guru, a kanistha adhikara guru, someone who is not very highly advanced who still needs guidance himself, he will fall down under the burden of his disciples sins and may even go to hell.

 

 

[devarsi]

Yayasriradhey quotes Ramakrishna as an authority, but is seems that Ramakrishna is mayavadi and worships demigods. In this article below it is quoted that Ramakrishna represents Lord Siva and also worships the Holy mother ( Durga )

 

I obviously respect Lord Siva and Durga devi, Lord Siva is the greatest devotee of Lord Krishna, but troughout the whole website Krishna is hardly ever mentioned, neither is Radharani. Bhakti is mentioned but to whom? Many nice words are written , but something is missing, a devotee will immidiately know what I mean with this by visiting their website.

 

I am trying to say that to be cautious and ones reading should be very selective. Many personalities appear to be vaisnava but in fact worshippers of great demigods. These people can not bring us back to Goloka Vrindavan. In fact I searched the whole site for Goloka Vrindavan, but nothing. I searched for the Supreme abode, nothing, i searched for the gopies, nothing, so i gave up searching there, its empty

 

 

 

 

The following is an article by

SWAMI ASESHANANDA a follower of Ramakrishna

 

http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/vk/2000/October/remini.asp

 

taken from the Indian Ramakrishna website

http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org

 

I want to convey to you what I was blessed with--the relationship between the guru and the disciple. What I have learnt at the feet of Holy Mother as well as at the feet of Raja Maharaj, preliminary as it was, is the shining light dispelling darkness. The bond between the guru and the disciple is the mantra, the sacred word. The mantrashakti is the truth, or the spiritual potency of the mantra discovered by the Rishis. The guru in Vedanta is he who has attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi, who has realised that the Atman and the Brahman are identical. The Tantras deal with the Ishtadevata. Cultivation of devotion to the Ishta is taught. The guru in Vedanta is the symbol of the universal soul, and the Ishta of the Tantras is the symbol of a special individual soul; and that is why, the Ishta of the Tantras, which is the chosen personal ideal, is a symbol of Shakti, i.e., the Divine Mother. Sri Ramakrishna's chosen ideal, for instance, is Mother Kali; Shankara's chosen ideal is Annapurna and so on. The Divine Mother is seen through sadhana along with Her grace. Hence realization in the Tantras is through sadhana kripa samanvaya. Vedanta on the other hand is called a siddhanta shastra, the ultimate realisation.

 

But sadhana is the domain of the Divine Mother, the symbol of all shakti, power. All the sciences also have power but that shakti is achit shakti, which means unconscious power, while spiritual power or kundalini shakti means chit shakti, conscious power. The Holy Mother was the embodiment of this power. Although we start with the worship of Mother, the ultimate realisation is the identity of the devotee and God. Sri Ramakrishna represents Shiva, the Absolute, and Holy Mother represents Shakti. Shakti is also called karunamayi, the gracious one, because without her grace or kripa, we cannot do anything. Grace is very important. I have learnt this from my association with the Swamis of the order. Once Maharaj asked Swami Premananda, 'Baburamda, have you seen the real nature of Sri Ramakrishna?' Baburam Maharaj meditated a little intensely, then said 'Kripa, kripa, kripa!'--It is only through His grace, it is only through His grace, it is only through His grace!

 

At a more personal level, Mother gave us inspiration, and not only inspiration, but liberation and siddhi too, through the grace of the Great Master--the embodiment of all noble qualities of the Divine Spirit. He has left behind his compassion and heartfelt love. His life was the epitome of perfection, and he has left it behind for the good of all, for the happiness of all.

 

[nitai]

I once heard that the spiritual master suffers the sins of the disciple according to his pureness. The more pure the spiritual master the more transparant he is. Actually the spiritual master doesn't burn the sins of the disciple but passes them to Krishna.

 

A pure devotee is 100% transparant and therefore all the sins end up by Krishna.

 

If the spiritual master is like 50% pure, then he suffers some for the disciple.

[devarsi]

Nitai wrote....I once heard that the spiritual master suffers the sins of the disciple according to his pureness. The more pure the spiritual master the more transparant he is. Actually the spiritual master doesn't burn the sins of the disciple but passes them to Krishna.

A pure devotee is 100% transparant and therefore all the sins end up by Krishna.

 

If the spiritual master is like 50% pure, then he suffers some for the disciple.

----------------------

 

I think we mean the same even if we use different words. However I dont think that sins can be passed on to Krishna not literally anyway. They would be disolved before they even have a chance to reach Him. The word transparent i dont think means that the sins are passing trough and end up at Krishna. Just imagine this and you can see that that would look very strange indeed.

 

I think the answer is that a genuine spiritual master who is 100% Krishna Consciouss does not burn the sins off, but they are burned off in the fire of His devotional service, if we can use these words. The sins dont pass by Him and go to Krishna, the spiritual master is so krihnanised that they simply disolve there and then, at approach if you will and have no effect at all on Him at all.Like butter who melts,coming nearer to the sun but never ever gets close.

 

I daubt that there is something like 50 % or 20 % for the guru, simply because i have not heard this, so it does not mean it isnt true, I am just not sure. I also do not think that such a 1/2 pure person should be a guru full time, but he should bring and offer his disciples to a completely pure devotee if there is one available.

 

With other words he should be aware of his shorcommings in this department and act in the best interest of his followers. He should not think that even so he is still himself in the need of guidance, that he will be able by his own progress to deliver his disciples fully to Krishna.

 

A kanistha or madhyam adhikari guru is still in the need of higher authority and must therefore submit himself and his followers unto the guidance of a highclass devotee.

Purety is the force. A lower devotee who accepts followers for initiation will be held back by his disciples sins and may have to fall down badly for his immature premature actions, based on the desire to be a guru.

 

However honorable a lower devotee still conditioned by the modes may be in the beginning in his pursuit of being a guide and initiating spiritual master for others, he will be having a hard time not to become corrupted by the undue worship of his disciples, after all he is still a conditioned soul.

 

Therefore the right thing to do for such a person is not to try to maintain such a false position, but to search out as quickly as possible the lotusfeet of a real pure vaisnava devotee of the Lord, who will be able to help him and his so called disciples, otherwise it is all a farce and bogus.

[viji_53]

Even the Almighty God in His Avatar as Krishna took the unique position of the teacher to inculcate the highest Truth upon His disciple Arjuna. Thus it is evident that the teacher is responsible for the human progress ;and for his benevolent services to mankind, he is adored more than God.

[janardana prabhu]

Hare Bol Devarsi, you responded

 

-Someone who can not do this, with other words a false guru, a kanistha adhikara guru, someone who is not very highly advanced who still needs guidance himself, he will fall down under the burden of his disciples sins and may even go to hell.-

 

This is true but it is not the point I'm trying to make. the Guru easily burns the karma of a surrendered devotee. The burden of the Guru is the burden of love for the mixed disiple. It is said that the spiritual master will return to help the devotee life after life if need be. My point is why would anybody forgo this type of loving relationship? Or why disturb someone elses? The topic is bogus! and let me conclude with JAI SRILA PRABHUPADA!