Seeing and Finding the Truth

[sumeet]

Hare Krsna

Please accept my obesiances unto your lotus feet.

 

Here are some links that would be of great interest for all of us:

http://www.gokul.org/contents/contents.html

http://www.gokul.org/contents/contents.html

 

I hope they are interesting.

 

With Love

Your Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

[sumeet]

Hare Krsna

I realized later on[after posting] that the links doesn't directly takes one to the page I intend you all to see. So when you visit the page please look at the left frame and scroll down to the links saying:

1) Find Truth

2) Seeing God.

 

Sorry for my mistake.

 

With Love

Sumeet.

[shvu]

 

I hate to be the villain, but I felt compelled to point out a few things here.

 

---

The Saints and Sages said, Follow the path that they have followed to realize Atma-Paramatma-Bhagavan and find out for yourself whether or not God can be realized.

---

 

Perhaps Raman was not aware that this is not true. No saint or sage ever said this. They all start with the presumption that there HAS to be a God. The question of an alternate possibility never arises anywhere. There is no specific method laid out and no definite time period for the search here. So how can anyone say after sometime if there is a God or not? If he says there is no God, then his Guru will tell him that he has not been sincere, and he has no proof to say otherwise.

 

Unlike that, with Raman's theory, there is a specific method and a time period to understand the whole thing. After which a student will clearly be in a position to say if it is true or false. If he says it is false, he will also have sufficient proof to validate his position.

 

They are poles apart. It is ridiculous to compare the search for God to scientific proof.

 

And like I have said before, seeing an image of Krishna or Jesus, could very well be hallucination. The idea of God creating humans, and then refusing to show himself to them unless they worship him sounds like a fairy tale [irrespective of whether it is true or not]. Note that no Religion has ever given a convincing reason for why God created man. No religion has done that. They all avoid that issue with concepts like Original Sin, Karma, etc [which sound like stories told to little kids].

 

May I point out that it has always been man who has been claiming that there is a God? God never came down and showed himself to anyone, ever. From time immemorial, it has always been man saying there is a God, I am his avatar, I am his son, etc. The Christian God is interesting. No one has seen him, but a lot of people in the Bible have heard him. That sounds funny to me. Hallucination again?

 

Someone may ask, so why are all these concepts surviving since such a long time?

 

Because you can NEVER find out if it is false. All their promises are for dead people. All the glory will be available only after death. This being the situation, people are left with a choice of whether to place faith or not. Most people like the idea of leaning on a support, which will provide them with moral strength to get them through the pains of life. That is the reason for so many people willing to believe in a superior power. Never once will they dare to question anything. They stand to lose a lot and so, will never dare to do that.

 

It is basically the greed in us to have more than what we have, to have permanent bliss, immortality, etc that makes us interested in God. If there were no promises, then NO ONE would bother with God. The whole concept of religion is to target this greed in us, to turn us away from material exploits that will result in disappointments owing to their uncertain, volatile nature. Now we are content to wait for the promised bliss that we will find after death. It is definitely a clever solution by the ancients to retain social values [if that is what it is].

 

The more I read these books, the more it appears that we are all being taken for a ride.

 

Anyone who gets mad on reading this, calm down. This is just another point of view like millions out there, and has no more value than them.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Somebody was wondering if I had some 'hidden motives' in doubting the existence of Krishna. Sorry to disappoint you, but I have no hidden or open motives. Whatever I had to say has all been said there, and I have no alternate Idol to promote by putting down Krishna.

 

I mentioned above that Greed is the reason for worshipping God. I left out fear. Lots of christians believe that people like me will goto eternal hell, where we will be tortured in boiling water, burnt and whipped for doubting their all-loving and merciful God. Their statements contradict one another, but they will never doubt them for a moment. And the hindus believe that such people will be reborn as street dogs, pigs, etc. The faith in their book is that strong.

 

Greed for a heaven or fear of a hell. Take out these two and there would be no reason to worship God.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Sorry for the mistake,

 

I meant to write Greed for Pleasure, and the fear of pain. Take these away and there would be no reason to worship God.

 

About Chanting

 

Chanting is a Sensual activity too, although many people who are into chanting will deny that. They are using words which they have heard and an image of Krishna which they have seen with their eyes sometime. How is it not sensual ?

 

People initially begin to chant, because the Gurus promise certain benefits that will come out of regular chanting. Otherwise no one will begin chanting in the first place. It also takes people away from the mainstream issues of life, giving them a temporary feeling of peace and relief. Like sone other schools advocate meditation, self-inquiry, etc. Over a period of time, it becomes a routine. If a person like Chaitanya [the Bengali saint] says Chanting by itself is bliss, then he has answered the question in that statement. He is chanting because it is giving him pleasure. Otherwise he wouldn't.

 

There is a BECAUSE all the time.

 

Again devotees, don't get mad. Just another view. Greed is always there in us at all points of time. That is why the holy books always talk about not being greedy. But that will not work. So they came up with the idea of turning the greed towards a hidden God, which is working fine. It is harmless, and will not disappoint you as long as you don't expect anything out of the relationship.

 

Expecting things will not work. Ask God for a Rasmalai, CD player, high scores in an exam, and you will see that it does not work. Don't believe someone if he tells you that you did not ask with a 'pure heart' and that is why it is not working, or any such nonsense. The ancients knew that too. That is why they said one should have unconditional love, where you do not ask for anything.

 

Cheers

 

 

[ggohil]



Sri Shvu:

 

Chanting may be sensual activity, but Chanting the name of Lord goes beyond the ordinary sensation. (Talking from experience)

 

The Bengali saint claimed that it is the Lord’s name that gave him bliss. From this how did you conclude that it is chanting itself that gave him bliss.

 

I will answer you other comments later.

[shvu]

 

Dear Ggohil,

 

---

Chanting may be sensual activity, but Chanting the name of Lord goes beyond the ordinary sensation. (Talking from experience)

----

 

I don't believe that anything goes beyond ordinary sensation, but then this is coming from a person who hasn't actually tried chanting anything. So I am in no position to comment on your personal experience.

 

----

The Bengali saint claimed that it is the Lord’s name that gave him bliss. From this how did you conclude that it is chanting itself that gave him bliss.

----

 

Chanting the Lord's name is what I meant too.

 

 

All experiences come out of what we know, our own projections. Which means there is no transcendental bliss or experience that is possible by the mind. We cannot experience something that we do not know.

 

That is why I always say that a devotee of Krishna will only get a vision of Krishna, and a devotee of Jesus will only see Jesus. We basically see what we want to see, and experience what we want to experience. Some people get all excited by seeing flashing colors, after a period of meditation. Such things can happen when the mind relaxes. There is nothing transcendental about it. But since it happened during meditation they attach extra importance to it. They were expecting some new sensation, a new vision and they immediately connect that to spiritual progress.

 

An example :

 

A dog chewing on a dry bone, hurts it's gums in the process and they start bleeding. It tastes the blood, and mistakes it to be from the bone. It gets excited and tries to chew further, while all the time it has been tasting it's own blood.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Hello All,

 

This being a Spiritual forum, it is not right on my part to raise doubts and questions that cannot be answered, that go against general beliefs. It also irks the devotees. It is a wonder that the adminsitrator did not kick me out long ago.

 

With this, I stop posting on this forum. It was nice conversing with you all.

 

Cheers

[ggohil]

Hare Krsna:

 

Sri Shvu:

 

>>>>.....Greed for a heaven or fear of a hell. Take out these two and there would be no reason to

worship God.

 

Interesting statements.

 

There are devotees out there who are not concerned with heaven or hell. For them heaven is

where they can freely take Lord’s name. For they derive so much pleasure in chanting Lord’s

name that they are not concerned with their next life.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Though the comment was way up there on the list, and I am a little late commenting on it, the motivation for most religion is actually nothing but expectation and fear. Someone worships god in hopes of receiving something, another personworships god in hopes that God won't punish him. If we look at some of the main world religions, it is quite clear they are focused on one of these two points. Someone is asking for daily bread, and the other is praying Allah won't finish us.

 

Hinduism is no different, if anything it is a little worse. First we go to one god and give our list of desires. If they aren't supplied in a sufficient and timely manner, we go on to the next god. Some are too imnpatient so they just ask all the gods at once, and unfortunatelt most of the gods think the other god will supply it and thus no one fulfills the desire of the Hindu.

 

This is known in sanskrit as arthika-dharma, or religion for material purposes. There is another form of dharma known as paramarthika-dharma, or religion for the ultimate welfare. Arthika-dharma will increase our bondage in the material world, it is the process of pravritti. Paramarthika-dharma is performed without material motive, and thus it will free us from material bondage. This is the nivritti marga.

 

As long as our religion is based on expectation and fear, it will increase our bondage.

 

Perhaps someone can post the eighth verse of Sri Chaitanya's Sikshashtakam with the transalation. It is a beautiful example of selfless devotion.

[ggohil]

Hare Krsna:

 

Sri Shvu:

 

 

>>>All experiences come out of what we know, our own projections. Which means there is no

transcendental bliss or experience that is possible by the mind. We cannot experience something

that we do not know

 

Shvu, will you tell me, precisely, what Bengali Saint felt when he took Krsna’s name?

 

[sumeet]

Hare Krsna

Please accept my obesiances unto your lotus feet.

 

Here is the eigth verse from Siksastaka:

 

" I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally. "

 

With Love

OM TAT SAT

Your Servant Always

Sumeet.