Can a Christian attain God?

[Gauracandra]

As I stated in a previous posting, the eternal religion is love of God. But how should we love God? Is love of God simply based on ritual? My answer is no. Jews can attain God. Muslims can attain God. Christians can attain God. It is simply a question of developing love for the Supreme.

 

In this regard, I wish to answer this question I posed with a quotation from the Bible:

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Matthew 22:36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

 

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 

This is the first and great commandment.

 

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

So the principal commandment by Jesus is to love God fully. And the second is to love all others. If a Christian follows this advice, then certainly he will attain God.

 

Gauracandra

[ethos]

Yes, in principle and theory I agree that anyone sincerely following their religious practice can attain God. I guess I would accept that there are exceptional practitioners who overcome their built-in limitations and succeed in attracting God.

 

In practice, I think the masses simply don't have enough information to reach their objective. To take a trip to California you have to have enough information of your destination. In other words, you watch TV or read books or communicate with someone by which you get information of California. If you don't have enough information you don't go. Most religious processes - including Christianity - simply don't have enough information for the mind to dwell on. There exists in many popular processes confusing or partial concepts of the soul, God, the afterlife and our purposes here.

 

If you're puttering around an airport taxiing up and down the runway but never take off, you'd better switch airlines.

 

Of course, it's debatable whether we as vaisnavas or Hindus or whatever really do that much better than the Christians - even with all our confidential information. Such is the infulence of Kali-yuga.

 

Yet, the glorious Vedic tradition has replete, unfathomable knowledge of the process and the goal. It has also produced innumerable personalities of the purest character. Here man gets off the center stage and actually begins to personally serve God.

 

I have heard that there is one God and one religion in reality... not by definition of time and circumstances... but in an existential sense. And that all other processes short of that one religion are but preparations for the more confidential and demanding bhakti.

 

I think the Christians have alot to overcome within their own ranks; for example, eating meat.

 

I also think that any lowclass murderer or dog-eater may attain heaven if his life changes and that I may see hell. Such are the mysterious ways of karma and the choices people make.

 

But I know Vaisnavas have the best chance.

[leyh]

Dear ethos:

 

I don't quite agree with what you wrote regarding information and travelling:

 

"I think the masses simply don't have enough information to reach their objective. To take a trip to California you have to have enough information of your destination. In other words, you watch TV or read books or communicate with someone by which you get information of California. If you don't have enough information you don't go."

 

In practical reality,we can go to a place even if we have little or even non-existent information of a place.If the airline is efficient enough,it doesn't matter whether I have knowledge of the destination.I can go as long as I have a ticket.

 

Translated in spiritual terms,I think a simple and sincere devotee with full faith and love of God,but not much knowledge of confidential information revealed in various scriptures has as much a chance of going back to Godhead as a learned scholar.And by the grace of the spiritual master who has brought tickets for both the unlearned and scholalry devotee,they will reach their destination.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

[ethos]

Leyh, Hare Krsna!

 

You can just go. Go where? I don't know. I'm just going. Who knows where you'll end up.

 

You have to have information about a destination to deliberately get there. You have to have information to buy the ticket to go. We don't buy tickets to one place and expect the airlines to take us somewhere else.

 

The airline or the process of transportation can get you there if it's competent. You may not be able to judge the qualifications of a particular process, but you have to have enough information to choose. We do that all the time in deciding what school we should attend, where to live or whom to elect as political representatives.

 

If you exercise blind faith in a good thing, then the blind faith is good for you. Put in a bad thing, the result is bad.

 

Now I'm not being sectarian here. Not everyone is after the same goal nor has the constitution to compete. We really don't think the Native American Indians have the same skills and dispositions of let's say the industrious people of Japan. Our motives and expectations have everything to do with the choices we make.

 

A simple devotee with full faith and love will return home. But who is practically possessed of such qualities?

 

The spiritual master has been compared to a captain of the boat crossing material nescience. He may be very expert at navigation and guidance, but we are lost if we can't follow his instructions. He may direct, but we have to make an individual endeavor.

 

Now some captains are better than others. Who do you choose?

[theist]

When speaking to Christians we can notice that Srila Prabhupada always brought up their need to stop slaughtering animals.He also emphasized the need to chant the Holy Names in their own scriptures if they had reservations on sanskrit names like Krsna.Very simple and essential message.

 

 

 

Father Emmanuel: Krsna cannot give permission to eat animals?

Srila Prabhupäda: Ye in the animal kingdom. But the civilized human being, the religious human being, is not meant to kill and eat animals. If you stop killing animals and chant the holy name Christ, everything will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but only to request you to please chant the name of God. The Bible also demands this of you. So let's kindly cooperate and chant, and if you have a prejudice against chanting the name Krsna, then chant Christos or Krsta there is no difference. Sri Caitanya said: nämnäm akäri bahudhä nija-sarva-çaktiù. God has millions and millions of names, and because there is no difference between God's name and Himself, each one of these names has the same potency as God. Therefore, even if you accept designations like Hindu, Christian, or Muhammadan, if you simply chant the name of God found in your own scriptures, you will attain the spiritual platform.

[Guest guest]

 

when you say something like 'attaining god'

I wonder what exactly you mean.

 

do you mean understanding god in some specific way ?

 

Do you mean relating to god individually, in a

conscious way ?

 

do you mean something else ?

 

God is never attained,We are GIVEN entrance

to god's mysteries ,not by our own action,

but by god's desire.

 

Anyone who thinks he/she has attained god,is in illusion,

God reveals the true nature of reality to the

person god chooses ,irregardless of what you may think

of yourself.

 

God is everywhere,within us,and surrounding us,

everywhere you go you are with God,regardless of what

you may think,bhakti yoga gives you the ability

to communicate with god on the level God desires,

which is something that you cannot enter into

without god's consent.

 

other religious practices bring you only to the level of understanding the magnifecence of God,

to understand god on the personal level,what is god's personality,What vdoes God do for fun and entertainment,

what does God do on intimate terms,that is what bhakti yoga gives,that is what Sri Krishna gives,and it is unavailable

anywhere else.

 

just like going to school ,all grades may have some benefit,but for the person who desires to be a professional

he has to go to the graduate school for the ability

to be certified and gain the ability to be an expert.

 

 

[Guest guest]

for some reason when logged in i'm not getting logged in ?

[ethos]

Here is a related link on this board entitled What is Vedic Culture?

 

www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=3756&page=25&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[Guest guest]

When we are attached to religions thinking I am a Christian, an Iyer, a Vaishnava, a jew or a muslim one has no chance of being an unalloyed devotee of God. That is because one is devoted to his path or religion than to God Himself.

 

 

sarva dharman parityajya

 

 

 

[ethos]

Ram,

 

I agree. Yet, we cannot approach God by our own efforts and it is the institutionalized authoritative religions which give us the process. If one experiences truth and transcendental knowledge, it is but natural to propagate the truth and process of it all. I don't think anyone cares for just "opinion".

 

It is very presumptuous to assume the "motives" of people without any overt information.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Many of you here have probably heard the story of the illiterate devotee who was instructed by his guru to study Bhagavad Gita everyday. Because he couldn't read or understand a word but tried anyways, Krishna from within revealed the crux of the Gita to him. When he was asked why he was shedding tears while turning the pages and understanding nothing (as thought by some)he said "Whenever I think of Krishna driving Arjuna's chariot and how much love Krishna has for his devotee, I can't help but cry." His guru confirmed that the illiterate disciple had understood the message of the Gita.

 

Jesus said "My Father's house has many mansions." When the followers of Jesus go to live with him and the Father maybe then they'll find out who the Father is, what he looks like and what he likes to do. And that he has a Girlfriend!

 

[ethos]

Bhaktavasya, that's a very touching story. Really!

 

But again (did I say this above?), to say many religions are right is saying nothing about the truth or content of the individual ones.

 

Are some of you suggesting I'm not liberal and tolerant of other religions? Am I so dogmatic and sectarian to say Krsna is the only way?

 

I really don't see what the problem is with repeating Prabhupada's criticisms of Christianity. What is the problem with contrasting and pointing out the hope and philosophy of our process with an inferior one? Prabhupada did it and I'm simply reiterating his points.

 

Christians don't practice chanting regularly. They have no clear conception of the soul or God or duty. They eat meat and directly participate in much of the violence in the world. And so on. I'm tired of thinking 'bout their faults anyway... It's a long list. It just seems like I'm going in circles with this stuff. I beginning to feel, "been there, done that." You're supposed to know all these things.

 

So if you can give substance to and resolve so much Christian blind faith and misunderstandings, what's the problem? Should they be left alone to kill animals or rape and enjoy the world all in the name of God's sanction and mercy? What's wrong with elevating people's consciousness (to a higher standard)?

 

Most of us readily accepted the Vedic conclusions as evidenced by Prabhupada. Preach! And go get the devotees that are waiting! How are these prophecies to be fulfilled by quiet complicity?

 

Why pretent they're on the same plane? They're not! We may all be Brahman - but we are certainly not Krsna!

[Bhaktavasya]

I agree with you when you say "we (you actually) should just leave them (the Christians)alone." Jesus is quite competent to take care of them on his own.

[ethos]

I repectfully disagree.

 

There is dissention and bickering in the absence of Prabhupada or Christ or any prominent religious leader.

 

Let's keep this on a philosophical platform and not resort to slander or emotional appeal. I could say I don't like personal things about "you," but that's not logic or the issue, that's just politics.

[theist]

ethos,

 

I think you may have overlooked the essence of Bhaktyavasya's post.Simple faith and a desire to please guru, transcend knowledge.

 

No one is saying that everyone who is parading under the Christian flag is a true follower of Christ.

 

But those who have developed faith in Christ will go to Christ and receive fuller realization of the Father as Bhaktyavasya so nicely illustrated.

 

Haribol

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Hey, thanks you old closet Christian you! How's it goin'? Or Who and where is it going, hmm? Hosanna in the highest. Peace on Earth and good will towards all humans, eh?

[theist]

Hey Bhatyavasya where have you been?You should keep in touch andpost more.

 

I'm here incognito and have everyone tricked.

 

Peace to all.May the Lord please show us His mercy.

 

Haribol

[ethos]

Yes, you have a good point. Perhaps you're right, Theist. I have already agreed with this in theory above.

 

"My earnest sincerity certainly surpasses all rules and regulations and liberation is waiting to serve me." Do you believe that? What if I told you I was a "saved" Christian?

 

Now I will again take a leap and say I know alot more than most "Christian saints" about spiritual life. Damn, I'm feeling next to God! (ha, ha) ...And I'm arguing your comparitive superiority too! Why do we have the term "confidential knowldge"?

 

The "simple" Vrndavana residents were considered exhaulted and far superior to all the sophisticated city residents. I think loving attachment is far superior to knowledge or aristocracy. And I theoretically believe there have been or could be Christian devotees who could surpass me or you simply by their own insightful realizations. In fact I feel it's true. But wouldn't such advanced devotees readily appreciate and adhere to the beauty and infinite wisdom of Krsna consciousness?

 

There certainly are exceptions, but let's establish the rule. We don't know about the position of previous "saints," but we can be more certain about contemporary practicioners who display "symptoms" of advancement. Let's concentrate on what we know through the eyes of scripture. Let's not assume the remote chance to be true if the evidence is not practical to our life.

 

I'm a rebel too.

 

So I'm putting forth a theoretical question. Look at your animal slaughter example above. Does "simple faith and desire" mean a sincere Christian is a vegetarian? Probably not. Would he or she come to this conclusion and practice simply by their inner vision? ... maybe. But probably not.

 

Krsna says "This will please me and not that." By his many criticisms, Prabhupada pointed out that the Christians are way off mark.

 

What about Prabhupada saying if the foundation is wrong, so is everything else? His specific example was how if the false ego is thinking I am this body, then the intelligence and mind and all lower facilities are all false. So if Christians don't know so many things about reality - including the absolute personality or Krsna, the most important reality - then what value is there religion? ... not to say it doesn't have value... but does it compare to Krsna consciousness? Why not achieve the best you can be?

 

Also, what about the aspect of karma and stumbling blocks on the path of self realization? The Pandavas and such people would think they were simply ruined to have a "blight" on their character. What about the built in "blights" of Christianity as its understood and practiced today?

 

You're not a Christian, are you? Why argue they should be?

 

I was raised a Christian as alot of us were. I went to Methodist Christian church 3 times a week for many years. I've also been to Episcapalian and other churches. I went to a Catholic private school and my nun teacher wanted to make me an alter boy even though I wasn't a Catholic (you see we attended mass during school hours). ... But you can give up lower taste(s) by experiencing a higher taste.

 

What do you mean they will go to Christ? Please expand this concept.

 

Now Bhaktavasya and Theist are conspiring against me! Conspiracies everywhere!

[theist]

ethos,

 

One attains the object of his worship.Bg ch 9.In a talk Prabhupada said that certainly Christ has His own planet.Those that develop faith in Him will go to Him.There they will receive further instruction.

 

We must be careful not to approach the Lord with any sense of having qualified ourself through karma or jnana.There is a verse in the Bible that says "the righteousness of man is but filthy rags before the Lord".Knowledge and pious deeds are very helpful for us but ultimately they fall short on their own.

 

There is an example.When Christ was on the cross there were two thieves also tied to crosses on either side of Him.One began to deride Jesus, the other spoke out expressing his faith in Him and confessing his own guilt.Christ told him that that theif would that day join Him in paradise.

 

So if their faith in Christ can be strengthened their path towards full Krsna consciousness is quarunteed.

 

These saviors,messiahs, pure devotees or avatars come here on a rescue mission.They don't need to come for those that are already righteous,they come for the fallen.

 

 

[ethos]

Theist, I took the convenience of editing this and my last post for clarification after you were offline. Took me a couple hours! (Revised; that's 3 hours! I need some sleep). Please review.

 

Interesting Bhagavad-gita reference. I can accept that. It sounds right. But I would like the specific reference if you can provide it.

 

Anyway, why not accept further instructions now as we did? Can you draw the line between constitutional bodily limitations and "ignorance is no excuse"?

 

My understanding is that most modern Christian faith simply involves belief: "Believe in Jesus and you are saved." Again, I think theoretically and exceptionally there are cases where someone dies and becomes advanced simply by Krsna's mercy. But is that opportunity available for everyone?

 

I think by contrast within the Vedic tradition, it is much more sober and mature to think of spiritual life as a difficult cultivation - the greatest endeavor - by which success and realization, backed by sadhana and renunciation, blend seemlessly into the presense of God.

 

2nd and 3rd paragraph: Ok, sure.

 

"So if their faith in Christ can be strengthened" ...that's exactly my argument!

 

Lastly: Yes, but it is time and circumstance(s). Eternal truths remain but may be adjusted according to circumstance: Prabhupada instituted 16 instead of 64 rounds. It is different now than it was then. And stronger medicine may be needed for an advanced disease. Isn't that the issue behind the Hare Krsna mantra?

 

Modern society does not have a religious philosophy to deal with the multitude of problems surrounding our unfortunate circumstances. Therefore, Prabhupada came to shake us out of our ignorance and remind us of our link to the highest truth: Krsna consciousness.

 

I'm starting to feel like there's nothing more to be said on my part - I've said it all. I'm feeling burned out!

[Guest guest]

ethos, i am not ascribing motives to any one. People share their partial realizations about God and some times a lot of opinion etc. Some may use the interest in God to exploit people also.

 

Religious leaders also share their realizations and opinions. But when we realize God, we will be beyond our designations that come as a result of our birth or choice, which is made with the mind and intelligence. When one is too attached to his religion, he will not be able to progress spiritually.

[ethos]

The preacher must come down from his lofty platform of "everything's Krsna" to preach. I agreed with your last comment if you qualify it. But I could also say Prabhupada was too attached to his religion. Now if what you say is true, how is it much of Prabhupada's appeal was his no nonsense criticism of politics, philosophy, science... everything?

 

To bad Prabhupada's not hear so you can set 'em stright on this response to Freud's rhetoric:

 

Srila Prabhupada: He has reached this conclusion because he has seen so many sentimental religions, but first of all he must understand what religion actually is. Religion is not possible without an understanding of God, and a religion without God cannot truly be called a religion. According to the Vedic system, religion refers to the orders of God; therefore if we have no conception of God, we cannot be said to have a religion. If we do not know God or His nature, how can we know the orders God is giving?

 

Prabhupada was generally considered advanced. It's actually hard to find anyone who "knows anything" to disagree. Now how could someone busy criticizing so much be advanced?

[ethos]

The direct meanings here are obvious, but there are several hidden meanings as well relating to this topic for those who can read between the lines. From Dialectic Spiritualism:

 

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes also suggested rules of conduct which everyone should follow. He felt that we should obey the laws and customs of our nation, religious faith, and family tradition, and should avoid extreme behavior.

Srila Prabhupada: That is a good proposal. Actually, family tradition is respected in Vedic civilization. In Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna argues:

 

“With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice.” (Bg. 1.39)

 

This means that Arjuna was respecting family tradition, but Krsna pointed out that his consideration was material. It really has no spiritual value. Therefore Krsna chastised Arjuna, telling him that he was situated on the material platform. Arjuna wa lamenting over things for which a learned man does not lament. So, perhaps Descartes made these propositions for ordinary men,, but they are not for those who are highly elevated or spiritually advanced.

Syamasundara dasa: Descartes considered these practical rules for daily conduct. He also believed that we should stand by the convictions we have formed and be resolute in the course of action we have chosen.

Srila Prabhupada: This could also be a dog’s obstinacy. However, if our final conclusion is true, then this obstinacy is nice. But if we have not reached the final goal, the Absolute Truth, such obstinacy is an impediment to advancement. This should not be generally applied because in the neophyte stage, we must be flexible. In the advanced stage, when we are firmly situated in truth, it is, of course, good to stand by our convictions. That is determination. For instance, we have understood that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No one can change us in this conviction. In the Christian system, they say that only Jesus Christ can help one go back to Godhead. That was meant for those whom Jesus Christ instructed because Jesus Christ saw that if the people left him, they would go to ruination. He saw that these inferior people had to stick to him in order to progress. Lord buddha rejected the Vedas, but this does not mean that Vedic authority is diminished. The men to whom he spoke were not able to understand the authority of the Vedas, and they were misusing the Vedic rituals. This is all relative truth, but Absolute Truth is different. Relative truth is within Absolute Truth, but Absolute Truth is independent of relative truth.

[ethos]

Also from Dialectic Spiritualism:

 

Hayagriva dasa: Descartes further writes: “I see that the certainty in truth of all knowledge depends on knowledge of the true God, and that before I knew Him I could have no perfect knowledge of any other thing. And now that I know Him, I have a means of acquiring a perfect knowledge of innumerable things… ” Descartes goes on to concude that since God is all good. He would not deceive him in matters pertaining to the Godhead.

Srila Prabhupada: If he follows God’s instructions and has real knowledge of God, he will never be mislead, but if he selects a false God, or if he has not meet the real God, he is subject to being mislead. To save him from this danger, God imparts instructions in Bhagavad-gita. Whoever follows these instructions will be perfect. If we receive knowledge of the soul from God, there is no chance in being mistaken. As soon as we think in our own way, we are subject to error becasue we are imperfect and finite. Krsna precisely says that the soul is within the body, and if we accept this, we can immediately understand that the soul is different from the body. Krsna says that the owner of the body is the soul within the body, and immediately the false impression that one is the body, which is a fool’s conclusion, should be eradicated. The light is there, but those who do not accept it prefer to live as fools and speculate.

[anadi]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura sagt in Jaiva Dharma

 

Generally, the human race can be divided into five groups:

1) immoral atheists

2) moral atheists

3) moral theists, who have moral and faith in Ishvara

4) those who are engaged in sadhana-bhakti

5) those who are engaged in bhava bhakti

 

Those who are knowingly or unknowingly atheists, can be moral.

When one such a moral person develops a little faith in Ishvara he is a moral theist.

A moral theist can develop interest in sadhana-bhakti and become a sadhana-bhakta.

A sadhana-bhakta becomes a bhava-bhakta when he has developed some UNALLOYED LOVE for Ishvara.

 

Here are different types of consciousness

1) mukulita cetana -slightly blossoming (the atheists)

2) vikasita cetana -developed (moral theists and sadhana-bhaktas)

3) purna-vikasita-cetana -fully developed (bhava bhaktas)

 

The spiritually unconsciuos (anudita-viveka) are obliged to remain confined to a particular portion of the stark and rudimentary tenets of the scriptures.

The spiritually awake (udita-viveka) receive the underlying essence as an intimate friend.

 

Although there is a difference in activities, there is no difference in aim.

The aim is the unadulterated love of God.

The methods prescribed are different for people of different eligibility.

 

Speaking about religions SBT says:

In the yavana religions there is no knowledge (clear conception) of:

- Bhagavan

- spiritual world

- jiva

- shuddha bhakti

- nitya dharma (prema)

 

(So how can someone that ignore all this knowledge understand whatever sort of realization he attain.)

The PURITY of any religion can be measured by the degree of nitya-dharma contained in it

People in general are not fit to receive instructions regarding nitya dharma,

which is the eternal function of the soul.

They can receive instructions regarding naimitika dharma, which is

- asampurna -incomplete

- heya -to be rejected

- misra - not pure

- acirasthayi -impermanent

The activities related to naimitika dharma, performed over many lifetimes conduct one

to obtain the association of the saints - sadhu sanga

This association purifies the mind and develops a taste for hari nama

which constitutes pure spiritual practice.