Why Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Never Received Initiation from Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji

[jijaji]

Why Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Never Received Initiation from Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji

 

1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it? In this way the whole principle of initiation is undermined and made into a laughing stock. In Sri Isana Nagara's Advaita Prakasa (8.118-122) it is described how Sita-devi, the consort of Advaita Prabhu, received initiation in a dream from Srila Madhavendra Puri, but that Advaita Prabhu still found it necessary to give her a concrete, audible initiation.

 

 

sita kohe bahu bhagye toma painu dekha

dehatma sodhana koro diya mantra diksa

tabe puri sitare krsna mantra dila

jagi sita mata kohe kiba camatkare

svapnavese puriraja mantra dila more

acarye kohila sita sarva vivarana

tiho kohe bhagye tuya khandila bandhana

prabhu sei mantra puna vidhi anusare

subha ksane samarpila sva bharya sita re

 

"Sita devi told Madhavendra Puri: "I am very fortunate to meet you. Please sanctify my body and soul by giving me mantra initiation." Then Madhavendra Puri gave Sita krsna-mantra after which he vanished. When mother Sita awoke, she said: "How amazing! Madhavendra Puriraja gave me mantra in a visionary dream!" Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: "You are so fortunate that now all your bondage is destroyed." According to the rules, and on an auspicious moment, Advaita Prabhu then gave His wife Sita that mantra again."

 

2) How can you take sannyasa in March 1918 while your guru passed away in November 1915? Gaudiya Matha chronicles admit that Bhaktisiddhanta took sannyasa in his room from a photo. Sannyasa cannot be taken from a photo, without physical permission of the person on the photograph, but from a living sannyasi.

 

3) How can you wear saffron cloth while your would-be sannyasa guru wore white? A parampara that starts with white cloth and then suddenly switches to saffron cloth and 'brahmana-initiation' is also not an uninterrupted siksa-parampara. All colors of garment but white are forbidden for a Gaudiya Vaisnava - rakta-vastra vaisnavera podite na yuyay (Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 13.61) "A Vaisnava should not wear red cloth." nagno dviguna-vastrah syan nagno raktapatas tatha: "Wearing red cloth is like walking naked," and sukla-vasa bhaven nityam raktam caiva vivarjayet (both from Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 4.147,152): "Always wear white and give up red cloth." raktam nilam adhautam ca parakyam malinam patam paridhaya (Agamasastra quoted in Durgama-sangamani by Sri Jiva Gosvami on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.120 ): "Wearing red, blue or unwashed garments is a sevaparadha." In Sri Dhyanacandra Gosvami's Paddhati the guru is described as wearing white cloth (svetambaram gaura-rucim sanatanam -"He wears white cloth and his eternal form shines like gold"). And saffron dhotis do not exist at all, only saffron bahirvasas (outer cloth) for Vedic eka-dandi (mayavadi) sannyasis and white dhotis for householders. Grhasthas should not wear a kaupina (loincloth), and this is also not 'brahmana-underwear'. A kaupina is given during the ceremony of sannyasa for a lifelong vow of celibacy. It drags anyone down to hell who takes it off to have sex. Shaving the head is also only for sannyasis and not for others.

 

To say one is wearing saffron, not red, is a useless escape manoeuvre, because there is also a positive injunction, namely suklavaso bhaven nityah, "one should always wear white and neither red nor saffron." This is also not a question of 'the form ("what does it matter what color your cloth is?") versus the substance. It is not narrow-minded smarta-ism, because obedience is the substance. The Gosvamis have ordered us to wear white and bhakti means that you obey the orders of those who are both ordered and empowered by Mahaprabhu to lay down the law. One Gaudiya Vaisnava acarya who may be an avadhuta may wear burlap, but he did not tell his thousands of disciples to do so. He told them all to wear white cotton. The Srimad Bhagavata verse (3.5.38) does not mean that Gaudiya Vaisnavas can wear saffron or red cloth, there was no Gaudiya sampradaya yet in the time of the Bhagavata, and, Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments on this verse: yatibhir maha-prayatnena samsarasagaram sribhagavadbhakta helayaiva sukham taranti, "the ocean of samsara, which is hard to cross by yatis (mayavadi sannyasis), is easily and blissfully crossed by the Lord's devotees." The verse rakta vastra vaisnavera porite na yuyay is not taken out of context here. The story indeed is a personal question between Jagadananda Pandita and Sanatana Gosvami, but the moral of the story, expressed in the rakta vastra-verse, is an objective, absolute statement for all.

 

4) If Bhaktisiddhanta is Gaurakisora Das Babaji's disciple, then why didn't he give us Gaurakisora's guru-parampara, instead of saying that Gaurakisora Das Babaji was the disciple of Bhaktivinoda? Rather, Bhaktivinoda worshipped Gaura Kisora and approached him for bhekh. (Gaurakisora took bhekh from Bhagavat das Baba, the bhekh-chela of Siddha Jagannatha das Baba). Regarding Bhaktisiddhanta's version of the rest of the guru-parampara:

 

 

Sanatana Gosvami was actually the disciple of Vidyavacaspati.

 

Rupa Gosvami was a disciple of Sanatana Gosvami.

 

Jiva Gosvami was a disciple of Rupa Gosvami.

 

Raghunatha das Gosvami was a disciple of Yadunandana Acarya.

 

Narottama Das Thakura was a disciple of Lokanatha Gosvami, not of Krsna das Kaviraja.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti was a disciple of Radha Ramana Cakravarti and never met his would-be guru Narottama, for they lived a century apart.

 

Baladeva Vidyabhusana was a disciple of Radha Damodara Gosvami, not of Visvanatha Cakravarti.

 

Jagannatha das Babaji lived 150 years after his would-be guru Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

 

Bhaktivinoda was a disciple of Vipin Bihari Gosvami, not of Jagannath das Babaji.

5) Why do all Gaudiya Matha-chronicles give different dates and places of Bhaktisiddhanta's supposed initiation, some saying that he received Nrsimha mantra, as if Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji was a worshipper of Nrsimha?

 

6) Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from? Gaura Kisora das Babaji did not wear it (as the photos show), for he was born a vaisya. The proof that brahmana-initiation does not exist in reality is that there is a separate 10-syllable Gopala Mantra for brahmanas and an 18-syllable mantra for non-brahmanas. This means that 2nd initiation is not the same as brahmana-initiation. And if you do become a brahmana through such initiation, then why not receive the 10-syllable mantra instead of the 18-syllable mantra they now receive?

 

7) Then there is the argument: "Ah, then you have an uninterrupted succession with so many ladies, but what was their realisation?" What were the realisations of Jahnava Thakurani, Hemalata Thakurani, Krsnapriya Thakurani, Siddhesvari Mata, etc.? The Gita proclaims that ladies can attain the Supreme Abode, but those who do not follow the scriptures (be they men) can forget about it-

 

 

mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papayonayah

striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim

(Bhagavad Gita, 9.32)

"O Partha, anyone who surrenders to Me, even low born women, merchants and laborers, will reach the Supreme Abode."

 

Better a submissive lady than a wayward, independently operating pandit, svami, etc. And even if these ladies did not have so many spiritual realisations that is still no excuse for just fabricating a guru-parampara.

 

Gaudiya Matha preachers attract followers from family gurus ('caste Gosvamis') by pointing to Sri Jiva Gosvami's statement in Bhakti-sandarbha (210): tad etat paramartha-gurvasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadi parityagenapi kartavyam, "One should give up a mundane guru and take a spiritual guru", but this 'mundane guru' refers to a village elder or parent, not to a family guru, for in Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.141) the Brahma-vaivarta Purana is quoted:

 

 

upadestaram amnayagatampariharanti ye

tan mrtan api kravyadahkrtaghnannopabhuñjate

 

"Even the vultures will not eat the dead corpse of the ungrateful one who abandons the amnayagatam guru."

 

In his commentary to this verse Srila Sanatana Gosvami writes: amnayagatam kula-kramayatam: This amnayagata guru means a guru who has come in a family succession."

 

8) What is the tilaka svarupa of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his followers? For instance, the Nityananda parivara-initiates have a Nim-leaf on the nose, the Advaita Parivara-initiates have a Banyan-leaf on the nose, the Syamananda Parivara-initiates have an anklebell-form on the nose and so every bonafide Gaudiya Vaisnava parampara has its own tilaka svarupa, which is revealed by the guru and personally placed on the 12 parts of the disciple's body by him at the time of initiation. In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.85) it is quoted: sampradayika mudradi bhusitam tam krtañjalim, "At the time of initiation the disciple receives the sectarian signs from the guru". In the commentary to this verse Srila Sanatana Gosvami writes: sampradayikam guru-paramparasiddham, "This sampradayika refers to the guru-parampara," and mudra tilaka maladi, "And mudra refers to tilaka and strings of beads." If Bhaktisiddhanta was a disciple of Gaurakisora then why do they put on this gopicandana tilaka without any fixed and distinct svarupa? Gaurakisora was initiated in the Advaita parivara. Why did Bhaktisiddhanta not wear his guru's tilaka if he was really his disciple?

 

9) The guru-parampara is placed in the wrong order on Iskcon-altars. The guru is seated on the disciple's right side at the time of initiation and remains there eternally. On Iskcon-altars the guru is on the left of the disciple. The latest guru should be to the right and the earliest guru leftmost.

 

10) Who is a brahmana? a) In ISKCON/Gaudiya Matha we see everyone ultimately receiving brahmana-initiation. But which varnasrama-society has only brahmanas? Even from their viewpoint "we judge people on their qualities and not on their birth," most of Bhaktivedanta's followers are not qualified brahmanas. ISKCON/Gaudiya Math "brahmana"-women leave their husbands, have children from different men (this is lower than a sweeper's wife in India), and, what to speak of knowing Sanskrit, the men don't even know Hindi or Bengali, or even what the weather is like in India. No one knows even basic sadacara, the practices of cleanliness and chastity. 90% of Iskcon members are businessmen ("qualified vaisyas" perhaps?) Quality and birth are anyway non-different: karanam gunasango 'sya sadasadyonijanmasu (Gita, 13.22). "The cause of birth in either a good or a bad species is one's attachment to a certain psychological quality (culture, habit)." The fact that most of Bhaktisiddhanta's Western followers are not even brahmana by quality, but there is still 'brahmana initiation' proves that their brahmana-campaign is motivated by envy. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has taught His followers trnad api sunicena "One must consider oneself lower than a blade of grass," not an ignorant mleccha considering himself equal to a brahmana.

 

b) Envy is the cause of the mentality: "Nowadays brahmanas are full of faults, so now we will launch our own varnasrama-system." A human being can and should not do that, for it is created by God Himself, and He is the highest authority (caturvarnyam maya srstam "The four castes are created by Me (God, Krsna),") and not by the human being Bimal Prasad Datta. 'Religious principles are created by God Himself" (dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam, Srimad Bhagavata, 6.3.19) Envy of brahmanas will cost you dearly, for Sri Krsna Himself says in the Bhagavata (10.64.41-42):

 

 

vipram krtagasam api naiva druhyata mamakah

ghnantam bahusapantam va namaskuruta nityasah

yathaham praname vipran anukalam samahitah

tatha namata yuyam ca ye 'nyatha me sa danda-bhak

 

"O My relatives! Do not harm a brahmana, even if he mistreats you! Even if he is a sinner, you should still bow down to him. Even I bow down to the brahmanas. Whoever acts otherwise is punishable by Me!" The best example is Indra, who had to suffer severely for killing the brahmana Vrtrasura, even though he was a demon.

 

The Lord further tells Srideva in Srimad Bhagavata (10.86.53):

 

 

brahmano janmana sreyan sarvesam praninam iha

tapasa vidyaya tustya kim u mat kalaya yutah

 

"The brahmana is superior to all living beings by birth, let alone when he is austere, learned, content and devoted to Me."

 

 

dusprajña aviditvaivam avajananty asuyavah

gurum mam vipram atmanam arccadavijyadrstayah (S.Bhag. 10.86.55)

 

"Men of crooked understanding, who do not know this, disrespect a brahmana and are envious of him, who is identical with Me and their very self."

 

c) The Bhagavata (7.11.13) declares that a brahmana must first be born in a family that has always, throughout the generations, followed all the samskaras for brahmanas.

 

d) The Vedas teach that a sannyasi renounces his brahmana-thread when he takes sannyasa (sutra-sikha-tyaga, C.C.), but in Gaudiya Matha/Iskcon sannyasis continue to wear the thread, even though they are not born as brahmanas in the first place!

 

e) The brahma-sutra (thread) is only for practising the brahma gayatri, not for the Vaisnava diksa-mantras like the gopala mantra and the kama Gayatri. Only the last two are mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilasa as Gaudiya Vaisnava diksa mantras.

 

f) A brahmana is called dvija, or twice born. How can you have the second birth (upanayana-samskara) without having had the first one (saukra or seminal birth)? The brahma gayatri investment is done by the father of a brahmin boy when he is 11 years old. The boy should not see the sun for many days (since the brahma gayatri is a solar mantra) and is locked up in a room with the windows shut and given only havisyanna (porridge without salt, spices or sugar) to eat. Initiation into krsna-mantra is a separate initiation which is only given to active Vaisnava brahmanas. This is called the brahmana's third birth (daiksa janma). For instance, Mahaprabhu already wore His thread when He received krsna mantra from Isvara Puri and Advaita Prabhu had been doing brahma gayatri for decades when He received krsna mantra from Madhavendra Puri.

 

g) Sanatana Gosvami says in Brhad-bhagavatamrta (2.2.57):

 

 

esam yajñaikanisthanam aikyenavasyake nije

jape ca sadguruddiste mandyam syad drstasatphale

 

The Maharsis offered Gopa Kumara the status of a brahmana, but he thought to himself: "If I accept the position of a brahmana, I will surely slacken in my practise of the mantra that I received from the bonafide guru, and that is certainly not good. brahmanas are only engaged in yajñas and are not engaged in other matters."

 

h) Introducing varnasrama dharma, which is an institution of karma-yoga, is a namaparadha - dharma-vrata-tyaga-hutadi-sarva-subhakriyasamyam: "To consider Hari Nama equal to any auspicious activity like (varnasrama) dharma, vows (sannyasa), tyaga and sacrifices."

 

11) Who is a sannyasi? A Vaisnava tyagi is not called sannyasi. In India a mayavadi is called sannyasi. In his Durgama-sangamani commentary on the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.113) Sri Jiva Gosvami sees a difference between a sannyasi and a Vaisnava-nivrtta (tyagi): sisyan naivanubadhniyad ityadiko yadyapi sannyasa-dharmas tathapi nivrttanam api bhaktanam upayujyata iti bhavah - "Just as it is wrong for a sannyasi to take too many disciples, so it counts also for renounced bhaktas."

 

12) There has never been a prohibition by the Gosvamis or the scriptures against calling householder-acaryas 'Gosvami'. On the contrary, Sri Narottama Thakura Mahasaya sang: doya koro sitapati, advaita gosai addressing the householder guru Advaita Prabhu with gosai. Advaita is also repeatedly called gosvami in Kavi Karnapura's Caitanya-candrodaya Natakam. To see the Gosvamis as different from the Lords - Nityananda and Advaita - who they directly descend from in family line is an offence to Nityananda and Advaita, for the Vedas teach us atma vai jayate putrah - "As father, so son", or: "The child is the image of the father." Saying that Sukracarya, the guru of the demons, refers to the 'caste Gosvamis', (sukra meaning sperm), is not only very offensive but also hypocritical, because Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura is only famous due to glorification by his own son Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

 

Regarding family-succession, there is no reason that one should not be initiated by one's parents: Hemalata Thakurani, guru of Yadunandana Thakura, took initiation from her father Srinivasacarya, Krsna Misra took initiation from his mother Sita-devi and Virabhadra Prabhu took intiation from his co-mother Jahnavi Devi. Virabhadra was a son of Nityananda Prabhu, but according to the Advaita Prakasa he went to Advaita Prabhu for diksa. Advaita Prabhu sent him back to his own family to take diksa there, which confirms that it was the wish of Nityananda and Advaita Prabhu that these family-guru paramparas would be created.

 

13) It is also not true that a person cannot give initiation when his guru is still alive. This practise is widespread throughout Gaudiya Vaisnava history. For instance, Rasikananda gave initiation while his guru Syamananda Thakura was still alive.

 

14) Deviating from the sastras a) Is often apologised for with the argument: "Yes, Prabhupada/Bhaktisiddhanta was a pure devotee, therefore he was empowered to introduce new injunctions." If that is so, then everyone can say the same of their gurus, including the followers of Jayatirtha, who introduced the use of hashish and LSD as a 'sadhana.' A genuine pure devotee will surrender to the sastras.

 

 

tasmacchastram pramanam te karyakaryavyavasthitau

jñatva sastravidhanoktam karma kartum iharhasi (B.Gita, 16.24)

 

"Therefore one should follow the scriptural authority in what is to be done and what is not to be done. Once knowing the scriptural injunctions, one should act accordingly."

 

b) Some say: "Well, all that scriptural evidence is very nice, but Prabhupada is beyond that. He is empowered by Krsna Himself, you can see that in these 208 temples in 184 countries, 25.000 followers, etc. etc." The answer lies in the well-known saying: "Religion without (scriptural) philosophy is sentimentalism and/or fanaticism." Quantity does not prove quality. Rajneesh has millions of followers, many more than Prabhupada, but does that make him an 'empowered' pure devotee?

 

 

yah sastravidhim utsrjya vartate kama karatah

na sa siddhim avapnoti na sukham na param gatim (Bhagavad Gita, 16.23)

 

"He who rejects scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims, will not attain perfection, nor will he become happy or attain the Supreme Abode."

 

 

srutismrti mamaivajñe yas tu ullanghya vartate

ajña-cchedi mama dvesi madbhakto 'pi na vaisnavah

 

Sri Krsna says (quoted in Bhakti-sandarbha, para. 312): "The Srutis and Smrtis are My orders. Those who violate, disregard and disobey these orders are haters of Me. Though they may be my devotees, they are still not Vaisnavas."

 

Disregarding the scriptures is the 4th offence to the holy name (sruti-sastra-nindanam). Moreover, Srila Narottama Thakura Mahasaya says (in the Prema-bhakti-candrika): sadhu-sastra guru vakya, hrdaye koriya aikya - "The words of the guru must be compatible with the words of sadhu and sastra, just as the words of sadhu must be compatible with guru and sastra and the words of sastra must be confirmed by sadhu and guru." Not that the guru can say whatever he wants merely on the strength of his large number of temples and his large material success.

 

Throughout this essay it is shown that the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta distribute namaparadha. The 1st (satam ninda, blanket-blasphemy of the non-Iskcon-Vaisnavas), the 3rd (guroravajña not accepting guru parampara), the 4th (sruti-sastra-nindanam, knowingly deviating from the scriptures), the 8th (considering mundane piety other than the holy name, like their own varnasrama dharma, to be alternative means of salvation), the 9th (asraddadhane vimukhe 'pyasrnvati yas copadesah, preaching to the faithless, the averse and the unwilling, and the 11th (?) (aham mamadiparamo namni so 'pyaparadhakrt), chanting the holy name with false ego (envy and ambition). Is their 'success' then really so great? All their followers are encouraged to commit and spread namaparadha.

 

15) Vaisnava ninda - Even if there were any kind of parampara in Gaudiya Math/Iskcon, their initiation must still be rejected on the basis of their systematic and collective slander of the Vaisnavas, with most of whom they are not even acquainted. Sri Jiva Gosvami quotes Narada Pañcaratra in Paragraph 238 of Bhakti-sandarbha:

 

 

yo vyakti nyayarahitam anyayena srnoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

 

 

iti naradapañcaratre ataeva durata evaradhyas tadrso guruh vaisnava-vidvesi cet parityajya eva - guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpathapratipannasya parityago vidhiyate iti smaranat tasya vaisnavabhavarahityenavaisnavataya 'avaisnavopadistenah' ityadi vacanavisayac ca

 

"'A person who speaks contrary to the morale enunciated by the Vaisnava-sastras, and the person who hears such immoral teachings will both live in a foul hell for eternity'. If an instruction of Sri Gurudeva is contrary to the sastras, then association with such a guru should be given up and he should be worshipped from a distance. If the guru is an enemy of the Vaisnavas, it is most auspicious to give him up altogether. The word dvesa (hatred) also stands for ninda (slander) (nindapi dvesasamah, Bhakti-sandarbhah). Therefore an offender to the Vaisnavas is not qualified to be a guru, and he must be abandoned. A guru who is attached to sense gratification, who does not know what is to be done and what is not to be done, or who acts contrary to the bhakti sastras must be abandoned. He has no Vaisnava-feelings, therefore he is an non-Vaisnava (non-devotee). The scriptural saying 'A mantra received from a non-Vaisnava will drag one to hell' also shows that an non-Vaisnava guru is to be abandoned."

 

There is no justification whatsoever for slandering Vaisnavas, for Sri Krsna Himself proclaims in Bhagavad-gita (9.30):

 

 

api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananyabhak

sadhur eva sa mantavyah samyag-vyavasito hi sah

 

"Even if he commits the most abominable activities, whoever exclusively worships Me (without worshipping demigods or endeavouring for liberation - Visvanatha) is to be considered a saint, since he is on the right way."

 

Satam nindam paramam aparadham vitanute: "Blaspheming the saints is the first and foremost offence to the holy name."

 

In the Vrndavana-mahimamrta (17.83) Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati has written:

 

 

svananda sac cid ghana rupata matir yavan na vrndavana vasi jantusu

tavat pravisto'pi na tatra vindate tato'paradhat padavim paratparam

 

"As long as one is so offensive as not to see all the creatures who live in Vrndavana as transcendentally blissful and full of ecstatic love and transcendental flavours, the supreme position of Radha's maidservant will remain unattainable, even if one has already entered Vrndavana."

 

Unless one gives up the company of a slanderer one is sure to fall down. The Srimad Bhagavata (10.74.40) confirms this:

 

 

nindam bhagavatah srnvan tat-parasya janasya va

tato napaiti yah so 'pi yatyadhah sukrtaccyutah

 

"Anyone who hears the Lord or His devotee (tat-parasya janasya va) blasphemed, and does not leave, will fall down."

 

b) Some call Radhakunda Narakakunda, and say 'there is not a single rupanuga Vaisnava there.' To this it can be replied - yattirthabuddhih salile na karhicit janesvabhijñesu sa eva go-kharah (Srimad Bhagavata, 10.84.13) "Anyone who comes to a holy place (like Radhakunda) only to bathe without meeting the learned persons there or recognising them, is like a cow or an ass." If one wants to keep one's men for the preaching-mission - for this is the only reason why other Vaisnavas are systematically slandered - then one may say 'you are not qualified to associate with such deeply realised souls.' Then one has caught two flies in one blow - one has glorified the Radhakunda Vaisnavas and at the same time have kept one's money-machine erect.

 

c) Babajis are not sahajiyas, for sahajiyas are Saktas or Mayavadis who have tantric sex with other men's wives, identifying themselves with Radha and Krsna. Babajis don't do this. They do not imitate the Gosvamis, but follow them, by wearing the dress Goswamis not only wore themselves, but also advised all other Vaisnavas to wear in works like the Hari-bhakti-vilasa and Caitanya-caritamrta (cited previously). Even if they are playing Vaisnava by falsely wearing the dress it is said:

 

 

sadhu sangera alaukika apara sakti hoy

chale sad-vesa-dhari jiva jivanmukti pay (Advaita-prakasa 9.61)

 

"The power of saintly association is so endless that even when one pretentiously dresses as a saint, one will attain liberation."

 

From Bhajana Kutir Website

 

 

 

jijaji

;^)>

 

[Guest guest]

>> Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream.

 

The source of this story is Dr. Kapoor. According his own version of the history, he said that he had heard a babaji's comment that this episode really happened and therefore it was possible. But when someone else has asked Dr. Kapoor for more details he simply has denied all the story!!!

 

So, this narrative have no other source than a chatterer made by a hagiographer. This source is still a live, anyone may confirm this fact straight with him.

 

There are countless evidences that Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji has given diksa mantras according the pañcaratra system to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, including his own father (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura) testimony, and even many babajis affidavits.

 

Now some Sarasvata Paribhara's opposites want to proof otherwise simply based on talks suitable to a barber shop or to a ladies' magazine.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

>> Babajis are not sahajiyas, for sahajiyas are Saktas or Mayavadis who have tantric sex with other men's wives, identifying themselves with Radha and Krsna. Babajis don't do this.

 

There are countless babajis all over India and to believe that all of them are pure Vaisnavas is to believe that Santa Claus is also a babaji.

 

Please identify the babaji's line you are trying to misrepresent, and thereafter we may discuss with more basis.

 

And btw, we employ the term 'sahajiya', or 'prakrta-sahajiya' under the following circumstances:

 

"Prakrita-sahajiyas are those who understand the aprakrita (spiritual) lila of the aprakrita Bhagavan to be prakrita (mundane) like the affairs of ordinary men and women, and who think that the aprakrita-tattva is attained by a material sadhana."

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[jijaji]

Satya..

 

Wants to have us all think ..he has a monopoly on knowing what is what in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. For YOUR info the story not only comes from Dr. Kapoor but also other Babajis as well.

 

You guys are the NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK and want everyone to forget about Gaudiya history except your slant..sorry!

 

jijaji

;^)>

[jijaji]

Satya says;

 

"There are countless babajis all over India and to believe that all of them are pure Vaisnavas is to believe that Santa Claus is also a babaji."

 

Who ever said all the Babajis all over India are pure devotees...gee Satya your debating skills are wearing out over the years!

 

STOP DEBATING YOUR OWN WORDS YOU PUT INTO OTHER MOUTHS TO MAKE YOU LOOK BETTER!

 

I know it hurts your feelings to be defeated in front of ALL these people you have pretended to be a big shot around..but Satay, the GIGS UP!

I'm here to tell ya folks..these guys ain't got no diksha!

And they hate it..when ya say it

 

 

jijaji

;^)>

[jijaji]

How can you wear saffron cloth while your would-be sannyasa guru wore white? A parampara that starts with white cloth and then suddenly switches to saffron cloth and 'brahmana-initiation' is also not an uninterrupted siksa-parampara. All colors of garment but white are forbidden for a Gaudiya Vaisnava - rakta-vastra vaisnavera podite na yuyay (Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 13.61) "A Vaisnava should not wear red cloth." nagno dviguna-vastrah syan nagno raktapatas tatha: "Wearing red cloth is like walking naked," and sukla-vasa bhaven nityam raktam caiva vivarjayet (both from Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 4.147,152): "Always wear white and give up red cloth." raktam nilam adhautam ca parakyam malinam patam paridhaya (Agamasastra quoted in Durgama-sangamani by Sri Jiva Gosvami on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.120 ): "Wearing red, blue or unwashed garments is a sevaparadha." In Sri Dhyanacandra Gosvami's Paddhati the guru is described as wearing white cloth (svetambaram gaura-rucim sanatanam -"He wears white cloth and his eternal form shines like gold"). And saffron dhotis do not exist at all, only saffron bahirvasas (outer cloth) for Vedic eka-dandi (mayavadi) sannyasis and white dhotis for householders. Grhasthas should not wear a kaupina (loincloth), and this is also not 'brahmana-underwear'. A kaupina is given during the ceremony of sannyasa for a lifelong vow of celibacy. It drags anyone down to hell who takes it off to have sex. Shaving the head is also only for sannyasis and not for others.

 

Do you shave YOUR head Satya??

 

;^)

[jijaji]

Satya says;

"There are countless evidences that Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji has given diksa mantras according the pañcaratra system to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, including his own father (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura) testimony, and even many babajis affidavits."

 

>>His own father would NEVER have gone along with his fake-sannyass thing and his made-up parampara that completely differed from his fathers LINE and Gaura Kisoras line.

He had to wait until he DIED before he introduced that!

 

 

 

Now some Sarasvata Paribhara's opposites want to proof otherwise simply based on talks suitable to a barber shop or to a ladies' magazine."

 

 

You got it backwards.....the new-fangled Sarasvata Paribhara (as you call it) is a new hybrid invention of BSS throwing into the mix Sanyass, saffron, shaved heads, brahmin threads and many other non-traditional Gaudiya Vaishnav externals!

This NEW parivar is a type of Jehovas Witness version of the older recognized Gaudiya Vaishnav Sampradayas.

 

jijaji

;^)>

[Guest guest]

Please identify the babaji's line you are trying to misrepresent, and thereafter we may discuss with more basis. {/b]

 

Maybe a babajis' confederation?! Instead of doing bhajana they now want to spread their old criticism towards Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada. These allegations are at least 60 years old, and only some newcomers may give them some credit.

 

Now they are stating that we are wearing red clothes. Maybe most of these so-called babajis are Daltonic, or may have any other trouble to distingue colors, like cows and asses have.

 

Sanatana Goswami has said:

 

ratkavastra vaisnavera parite na juyaya - "This red cloth is unfit for a vaisnava to wear." (C.c. Antya 13.61)

 

And there are many other slokas from sastra saying the same. Rakta, red cloth is foribiden for vaisnavas.

 

But gairika-vastra (saffron cloth) is quite different than rakta-vastra. Kasaya or gairika is the stimulus for anuraga. It is said that Sri Paurnamasi devi also wears kasaya cloths (Srila Rupa Goswami in his Vidagdha Madhava and Sri Jiva Goswami in his Sri Gopala Campu).

 

In his commentary on Srimad Bhagavantan sloka 11.18.28, Srila Cakravartipada stress that saffron cloths, tridanda and other appropriate paraphernalia are limbs of the salinga asrama-dharma, that bhaktas in the 4th order should wear while doing their bhajana as long prema has not awakened.

 

If saffron cloths is impure and forbidden for vaisnavas, why great Acaryas such as Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva all wore saffron cloth?

 

Besides, saffron cloth was not introduced by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, if these babajis were a little learned in the history of their sampradaya they would see that:

 

1. Sri Radhikanath Goswami: was a greatly learne scholar and tattva-vid-vaisnava-acarya of the Sri Advaita Paribhar. He was a sannyasi reisiding in Vrindavana and used to wear saffron cloth and carrya a tridanda. He has quoted numerous statements of scriptural evidence on the subject of vaisnava-sannyasa in a book named "Yati Darpana."

 

2. Sri Gauragopala Goswami, who also belongs to Advaita Paribhara, a resident of Sri navadvipa-dhama and a celebrated scholar, also a tridandi-sannyasi and saffron clothed one.

 

3. Sri Sarvabhauma Madhusudana Goswami, one of the famous Goswamis of the Sri Radha-ramana Mandir in Vrinadvana, also accepted sannyasa and saffron cloth. And among the Goswamis of the Radharamana Mandir, we can also quote Sri Balakrsna Goswami, and Sri Atula Krsna Goswami who also accepeted tridanda-sannyasa and saffron cloth.

 

There are countless examples in the gaudiya-vaisnava sampradya, and in all the other Vaisnava-sampradaya of tridandi-sannyasis dressed with saffron cloth.

 

Why to consider sannyasa-vesa an "invention" made by Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[jijaji]

PLEASE PRAY TELL....

WHO DID THEY TAKE SANYASS FROM? BECAUSE THERE WAS NO SANYASS IN GAUDIYA VAISHNAVISM BEFORE BSS?

 

:^0

[jijaji]

And stop throwin in verses from the Bhagavat to support BSS taking Sanyass in the age of Kali-Yug..your makin yourself look silly!

 

;^)>

[jijaji]

For the saffron sannyass supporter...

 

To say one is wearing saffron, not red, is a useless escape manoeuvre, because there is also a positive injunction, namely suklavaso bhaven nityah, "one should always wear white and neither red nor saffron." This is also not a question of 'the form ("what does it matter what color your cloth is?") versus the substance. It is not narrow-minded smarta-ism, because obedience is the substance. The Gosvamis have ordered us to wear white and bhakti means that you obey the orders of those who are both ordered and empowered by Mahaprabhu to lay down the law. One Gaudiya Vaisnava acarya who may be an avadhuta may wear burlap, but he did not tell his thousands of disciples to do so. He told them all to wear white cotton. The Srimad Bhagavata verse (3.5.38) does not mean that Gaudiya Vaisnavas can wear saffron or red cloth, there was no Gaudiya sampradaya yet in the time of the Bhagavata, and, Srila Sanatana Gosvami comments on this verse: yatibhir maha-prayatnena samsarasagaram sribhagavadbhakta helayaiva sukham taranti, "the ocean of samsara, which is hard to cross by yatis (mayavadi sannyasis), is easily and blissfully crossed by the Lord's devotees." The verse rakta vastra vaisnavera porite na yuyay is not taken out of context here. The story indeed is a personal question between Jagadananda Pandita and Sanatana Gosvami, but the moral of the story, expressed in the rakta vastra-verse, is an objective, absolute statement for all.

 

 

;^)

jijaji

[jijaji]

Satyaraja unfortunately misunderstands what the siddha-pranali is.

In the first place, the siddha-pranali is not a separate rite or diksa that is received later than the mantra diksa. It is an expansion of the mantra diksa. The single most important rite in Gaudiya Vaisnavism is mantra diksa. At that time one is accepted into a line of gurus going back to Sri Caitanya or his immediate followers. This is called the guru-parampara and is very important because it is the channel through which Mahaprabhu's mercy comes to one. The mantras one receives then are empowered by every member of that line and knowing who they are is very important. That is why in the Gaudiya tradition one is given their names in a list (Guru-Pranali not given in GM/Iskgone) One should offer obeisance to every member of that chain each day and before doing any devotional practice. It is by their grace that one succeeds. Not doing so would be like sitting out on the end of a branch of a tree while sawing it off at the trunk. That is the chain that one has to catch hold of if one wishes to be pulled out of the ocean of repeated birth and death and each link is important.

 

In the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition OUTSIDE of GM/ISKCON one receives sixteen mantra and gayatri. These are the guru-mantra and gayatri, caitanya-mantra and gayatri, nityananda-mantra and gayatri, advaitacarya-mantra and gayatri, gopala-mantra and kama-gayatri, radha-mantra and gayatri, gadadhara-mantra and gayatri, and srivasa-mantra and gayatri. There may be some variations in these mantra in the different lines of the tradition. Each mantra and gayatri of course is preceded by the one syllable seed appropriate to that mantra or gayatri. Without these mantra and gayatri one is not qualified to do any higher service like puja, arati, or smarana. Note that there is no surya-gayatri as is given in GM/iskgone (aka brahma-gayatri: om bhur bhuvah svar tat savitur ..) This mantra has nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaisnavism or with the worship of Radha-Krsna. It is the mantra given to brahmin boys during the upanayana initiation which marks their entry into the study of the Veda. Its introduction into the mantra diksa appears to be one of the many fabrications of Bhaktisiddanta.

Chanting the Holy Name of course does not depend on proper initiation. There is no required initiation rite for the Holy Name in this tradition.

 

One is transformed during the mantra initiation from a pravartaka (beginner) to a sadhaka (practitioner). As a practitioner one has a number of choices open to one for devotional service most of which do not require the siddha-pranali. If one has a strong desire to do raganuga sadhana-bhakti, however, and that desire is the chief qualification for such a practice, one needs the siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali is nothing more than the siddha or manjari names and descriptions of that same line of gurus that one received at initiation. Each is believed to be a participant in the eternal sport of Govinda. One learns one's own siddha name, color, service, and so forth as well as the gurus's from the guru at that time as well. One can then use that information to visualize one's self as a manjari assistant to the guru-manjari and his guru-manjaris as they serve Radha and Krsna. This visualization is at the core of the practice called "remembering the sports of Radha and Krsna during the eight periods of the day (asta-kaliya-lila-smarana)". If one does not have the desire to do this form of mental service, and many don't, one does not need the siddha-pranali. Thus, it is not a separate diksa and for many it is not strictly speaking necessary. What one cannot do without, though, is the mantra diksa and the guru-parampara. Thus, when GM/iskcop says: "All opposition to Bhaktisiddhanta contends that he did not receive the siddha-pranali initiation to the esoteric worship of Radha and Krsna from either Bhaktivinoda or Gaura Kisora", it is simply wrong. The contention is that Bhaktisiddhanta did not get mantra diksa and guru-parampara. Without mantra diksa and guru-parampara there is no question of receiving a siddha-pranali.

 

Bhaktisiddhanta did not receive mantra diksa and guru-parampara from anybody. Bhaktisiddhanta did not teach his followers to worship the diksa guru of Gaura Kisora Das Babaji. The reason Bhaktisiddhanta didn't was that he didn't know who the diksa guru of Gaura Kisora Das Babaji was. Neither does anyone in the Gaudiya Math and ISKCON. My contention is (based on an eye-witness account of his own admission before Pandit Ramakrsna Das Baba) that Bhaktisiddhanta didn't know who his parama-guru was because he never received diksa and guru-parampara from Gaura Kisora Das Babaji. On the other hand, Gaura Kisora Das Babaji was notoriously difficult to get initiation from and even when one of his disciples asked about guru-parampara he was, according to Haridas Das's account, tremendously evasive telling him instead to chant the Holy Name. He emphasized the Holy Name over everything and did not recommend lila-smarana. Nevertheless, it is highly unlikely that Gaura Kisora Das Babaji, who was not a brahmin and who cared nothing for the caste system, would have given Bhaktisiddhanta the surya-gayatri in initiation. (See Gaura Kisora Das Babaj's jivani in Sri Sri Gaudiya Vaisnava Jivana, dvitiya khanda, by Haridas Das. 3rd printing, Gaurabda 489 [1975], pp. 39-52. Haridas Das's account of Gaura Kisora Das Baba is quite interesting. What is most interesting about it, though, is that there is no mention of Bhaktisiddhanta at all. Bhaktivinoda is mentioned, but mostly in the context of Gaura Kisora's pleasure at having eluded him by hiding out in a whore house. I don't think that there was any great enmity between Haridas Das and either Bhaktivinoda or Bhaktisiddhanta, apart from the usual dissatisfaction Navadvipa Vaisnavas felt toward them for claiming Mayapura was on the other side of the river. It is strange that an important person like Bhaktisiddhanta would not be mentioned, though.

 

 

Ananta Vasudeva was also known as Puri Maharaja and was not only learned, but was the man chosen by Bhaktisiddhanta to replace him after his death. Sundarananda Vidyavinoda was one of the leading writers and thinkers of the Gaudiya Math and the editor of the Math's monthly journal for years. A few years after Bhaktisiddhanta's passing, for some reason the year 1941 sticks in my memory, Puri Maharaja and Sundarananda Vidyavinoda left the Gaudiya Math, but not alone. A number of followers left with them and settled in various places around Vraja to do bhajana, i.e. hari-nama and lila-smarana. When Puri Maharaja discovered the lack of initiation in the Gaudiya Math lineage, he called all of the leading sannyasi in the Math organization together and informed them of his discovery. He advised them: "You all may as well go home and get married. Continuing this charade is useless". He then took his own advice taking off his saffron robe and heading to Vrindaban where he at first hid from the anger of his former god-brothers When he arrived in Vrindaban he was given shelter by Vishvambhar Goswami, one of the Radharaman Goswamis. Shortly thereafter he publicly renounced the Gaudiya Math and apologized for all of the offenses he committed as a prominent member and leader of it. He later married and settled in Vrindaban producing over the years one of the finest collections (more than fifty volumes) of Gaudiya scripture ever to be produced. This hardly sounds like someone who had lost his sakti-sancara (empowerment by Krsna).

 

The departure of Puri Maharaja strikes me as an incredibly courageous and honest thing to do. Here Puri Maharaja was in the highest seat of power in the Gaudiya Math, appointed by the founding acarya himself and himself therefore the acarya of the institution at the time. He could very well have covered up the flaw and carried on. Instead, at great risk to himself and at great loss, he informed his god-brothers and set out to put himself back on the correct path. Many of his god-brothers, however, split off into their own factions, struggling for control of the institution or to establish their own institutions, and tried to cover up the truth, labelling Puri Maharaja as fallen and claiming that he ran off with a woman. They fought each other for years for pieces of the juicy Gaudiya Math pie. After that time the Gaudiya Math and its offshoots were firmly founded on greed and deceit. The books the Math and its family produced afterwards were with few exceptions poorly edited and filled with errors. None of them match up to anything like the quality of the work produced by either Puri Dasa (no longer a sannyasi) or Sundarananda Vidyavinoda after they left the Math.

 

Haven't I just called the leaders of Gaudiya Math after Puri Maharaja greedy and deceitful? Let me try and usher some generosity back in by pointing out that though the leaders of the Math may have been crooked and deceitful, the rank and file members probably had no idea of what was going on. Prabhupada, who was still being a chemist in Allahabad, probably only heard that Puri Maharaja had fallen down with a woman, shrugged, and turned back to selling shaving cream and toothpaste. The followers no doubt remained sincere.

 

from bhajana kutir website...

 

;^)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>> You got it backwards.....the new-fangled Sarasvata Paribhara (as you call it) is a new hybrid invention of BSS throwing into the mix Sanyass, saffron, shaved heads, brahmin threads and many other non-traditional Gaudiya Vaishnav externals!

 

So, following your reasoning, if a monkey wears a traditional Gaudiya-vaisnava external he is automatically

a paramahamsa!!! And if a real paramahamsa is a sannyasi, wearing saffron cloth, brahmin thread and other non-traditonal Gaudiya-vasinava externals he is a hybrid, a kind of mutant!!!

 

Another point worthy of our consideration is that if we accept that all the babajis who have accepted traditional vesa to be genuine parama-bhagavata vaisnavas, completely devoid of false ego and the propensity to criticize others, as suggested by their dress, there would never be possible for them to have hatred and jealousy toward those who have accepted sannyasa and saffron cloth and who are engaged in the bhajana of Sri Guru-Gauranga-Radha-Govinda.

 

One should consider that anarthas do not go away simply by putting on a traditional babaji-vesa or a saffron cloth. Qualified people may remain inside or outside varnasrama system and engaged in bhajana, while unqualified people use only to imitate paramahamsa vaisnavas externals and never give up pride and attachment to mundane matters.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[jijaji]

So, following your reasoning, if a monkey wears a traditional Gaudiya-vaisnava external he is automatically

a paramahamsa!!!

 

> No one has ever said one obtains paramahansa status simply by wearing a certain color...again STOP PUTTING WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLES MOUTHS SO YOU CAN DEBATE THOSE WORDS YOU YOURSELF HAVE GIVEN!

 

And if a real paramahamsa is a sannyasi, wearing saffron cloth, brahmin thread and other non-traditonal Gaudiya-vasinava externals he is a hybrid, a kind of mutant!!!

 

> A real paramahansa will follow accordingly what the Gosvamis set down as standard instead of thinking their own way is better.. Why change Mahaprabhu Himself gave authority to the Gosvamnis to set the standard not BSS sorry!

 

Another point worthy of our consideration is that if we accept that all the babajis who have accepted traditional vesa to be genuine parama-bhagavata vaisnavas, completely devoid of false ego and the propensity to criticize others, as suggested by their dress, there would never be possible for them to have hatred and jealousy toward those who have accepted sannyasa and saffron cloth and who are engaged in the bhajana of Sri Guru-Gauranga-Radha-Govinda.

 

>> No one has stated that anyone who accepts vesa is parama-bhagavata vaisnavas, not even the Babajis. But one has to start at the proper starting point..

All this hatred you alledge is FALSE GAUDIYA MATH SMEARING..

YOU ARE THE ONE'S WHO HATE ALL OTHERS OUTSIDE YOUR FANATICAL JEHOVAS WITNESS TYPE LINE. AND WE HVE THE PROFF BY THE WAY YOU DON'T ACCEPT ANYONE IN SRI CHAITANYAS RELIGION EXCEPT YOUR SAFFRON, SHAVED HEADED, DANDA WAVIN, CHEAST BEATIN BIBLE THUMPERS!

 

One should consider that anarthas do not go away simply by putting on a traditional babaji-vesa or a saffron cloth.

 

>Of course.....and the institutional sadhu-ninda that come from GM/Iskcon is unpresedented in the history of Sri Chaitanys religion!

 

 

Qualified people may remain inside or outside varnasrama system and engaged in bhajana, while unqualified people use only to imitate paramahamsa vaisnavas externals and never give up pride and attachment to mundane matters.

 

 

> What HYPOCRITICAL BULL SATYA .....

 

Your EGO has the best of you SATYA!

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

;^)

 

[Guest guest]

>> And stop throwin in verses from the Bhagavat to support BSS taking Sanyass in the age of Kali-Yug..your makin yourself look silly!

 

We sorry! We imagine that babajis had only some trouble to distingue colors, but now you are proving that they are also blind!

 

The quotes that we had posted are not from Bhagavata, they are mainly from sruti texts. Whenever one has a problem of conflicting opinions between sruti and smrti texts, the opinion of srutis are always prevalent. This is a basic instruction that even blind babajis should observe while discussing. Please re-read the post and its quotes.

 

Besides, the same Brahma-vaivarta Purana (2.36.9) states:

 

dandam kamandalum raktavastram matranca dharayet

nityam pravasi naikatra sa sannyasi kittitah

 

Here the same Purana is stating that the prohibition that you mentioned before must be valid under some circumstances, not all circumstances, and that that was referring to karma-sannyasa, and not jñana-sannyasa, that is now is being sanctioned by the same Purana.

 

Before you quote a scripture it is better to known its contempt, otherwise you may be placed in the role of a goof.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[jijaji]

Satya

 

me thinks you have lost it dude....your starting to foam at the mouth!

 

;^)

[jijaji]

What's really funny .....you see so many of these GM/Iskpoop Sannyasins who try as hard as possible to LOOK like BSS..wearing the same typoe of glasses etc...they all want to be LION GURUS..TOUGH GUYS!

 

You belong to a FAKE line that high-jacked Sri Chaitanyas religion and turned it into a fanatical Jehovas Witness version!

 

;^)

[Guest guest]

>> me thinks you have lost it dude....your starting to foam at the mouth!

 

Don't worry babaji! We are already accustomed with these kind of attacks. To preach is to face opposition, there is no preaching without opposition. We known your old allegations, nothing new. Why don't you try something original?

 

We are only witnessing the efficacy of your own siddha-pranali instructions, congratulations!!! How much did you pay for your set of mantras?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Or I might as well claim I flew up to the himalayas as Vayu and received initiation from Vyasa. The double standard is pathetic.

 

There is no way to confirm whether or not Madhva actually received initiation from Vyasa. It was his own word. And certainly none of us were there to see it.

 

The point is one should be uniform in one's judgement. If you want to make a particular standard for judging the authenticity of someone's initiation, then apply it all the way back in the line in a uniform manner. But you can't because then the entire line fails the subjective test, which itself is useless anyway. Better to just go to Vrindavan, renounce the world for ever to only chant Krishna's name, receive babaji initiation from someone you don't know... and then after a few months return to good ol' USA to live your same old life style.

 

Why make a joke of religion?

 

 

[amanpeter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ananga

posted 05-03-2001 12:59 PM PT (US)

 

Shocking! Scandalous! Such fraud in the guise of religion! Why hasn't someone sued the Isckon and Guaidya

Manth for false advertising?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

 

Aparently someone tried awhile back, but the evidence kept coming in and his exhausted emaciated corpse was later discovered, buried deep under several tonnes of paper, at the back of an enormous warehouse, somewhere in Calcutta. Another poor chap did try to sift through the mountainous mess and some time later ended up running off screaming into the night.

[shvu]

 

UG: ...Go to the temple, do puja, repeat mantras, put on ashes. Eventually some joker comes along and says, "Give me a week's wages and I will give you a better mantra to repeat." Then another fellow comes along and tells you not to do any of that, that it is useless, and that what he is saying is much more revolutionary.

 

Q: Why shouldn't we brush aside what you are saying, just as you brush aside the teachings and efforts of others?

 

UG: You will never blast me; the attachment you have to religious authority prohibits you from questioning anything, much less a man like me. You cannot accept what I am saying, and neither are you in any position to reject it. If it wasn't for your very thick skin, you would certainly end up in the loony bin. Absolutely nothing is going to penetrate your defenses; Gowdapada provides the gloves, the Bhagavad Gita a snug coat jacket, and the Brahmasutra a bullet-proof vest. So you are safe, and that is all you are really interested in. You can't blast what I am saying as long as you are relying upon what someone has said before.

 

Having taken for granted the validity of all this holy stuff, having never questioned, much less broken away from it, you not only have learned how to live with it, but also how to capitalize on it. It is a matter of profiteering, nothing more.

 

Cheers

[kailasa]

Neutral race Goloki in maximum sense all same mathuria, but without the direct attitudes(relations).

The neutral attitudes(relations) are all races, but without direct participation. Precisely just as mathuria this combination of all attitudes(relations), therefore to speak about the superiority of one of them it is possible, but not from the usual point of view.

 

Not everyone in ÈÑÊÊÎÍ receives brahman dedication, at least in Russian ÈÑÊÊÎÍ it is exact so.

 

> "brahmana" -women leave their husbands, have children from different men

What all so continuously act? Well and äåëà!!!

 

In kali to all sudras -êàëàó øóäðà ñàìáõàâàõ, therefore birth nothing can define(determine).

 

There are many places in sastra where is spoken, that the one who is devoted Lord Visnu above than brahman , But there are also those who not being brahman , carry a cord. As a rule all this well understand and at us at least it has no any force.

 

All well understand materialistik Varnasrama and do not speak about her(it) spirit.

 

> 14) Deviating from the sastras a) Is often apologised for with the argument: " Yes, Prabhupada/Bhaktisiddhanta was a pure devotee, therefore he was empowered to introduce new injunctions. " If that is so, then everyone can say the same of their gurus, including the followers of Jayatirtha, who introduced the use of hashish and LSD as a 'sadhana'. A genuine pure devotee will surrender to the sastras.

 

Praphupada\Bhaktivedanta Svami is specified in sastra, what problems? It is interesting if to result the link, if the man does not want, it(he) will find thousand reasons, justifying, and Itself the God by anything to it(him) help can not.

 

> 15) Vaisnava ninda - Even if there were any kind of parampara in Gaudiya Math/Iskcon, their initiation must still be rejected on the basis of their systematic and collective slander of the Vaisnavas, with most of whom they are not even acquainted. Sri Jiva Gosvami quotes Narada Pañcaratra in Paragraph 238 of Bhakti-sandarbha:

 

You seem to me too generalize.

 

> If an instruction of Sri Gurudeva is contrary to the sastras, then association with such a guru should be given up

 

I am not ready to speak now about colours dhoti (if everyone will dress white, it and will be true parampara?).

 

1) Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has received initiation from Gaurakisora. It(he) has received sanias from another guru, in any case you do not have any other positive certificates, to assume everything is possible.

5) It(he) has received Nrisimha mantra because His(its) mission was what to begin the sermon. For example Bhaktivedanta did not give Nrisimha mantra , but after the direct opposition of the various people began, it(he) has entered prays Lord Nrisimha .

8) Tilaka this place where there are various expansion Visnu.

9) It is important not in what order the images, and something another cost(stand).

11) Îòðå÷åí that who executes a duty and does not light fire. BG. There are much guru at which at all not many Diciples, here you have a lot of stamps.

 

> Then everyone has caught two, everyone flies in one impact - has glorified Radhakunda Vaisnavas and at the same time to store(keep) the machine of money vertical.

 

About now and I began to understand. Dear friend! Really! You do not understand that in organization many people and among them is different??? As on this site.

From thousand people aspiring to perfection.........From thousand one, from two thousand two. From hundred thousand hundred turn out. It only those who aspires to perfection!!! And from thousand reached(achieved)!!! perfection, hardly probable one was learnt by(with) the God.

To yours will listen, and God is not present, the supersoul is not present. The fidelity it is not cheap, in organization without organization. The god supervises all, sometimes any dust proceeds from us, sometimes it is an attribute of fall sometimes absolutely and not so. If we want to understand or to help, this one business. Envy the strongest pollution, not come true hopes deepest pollution.

 

[jijaji]

OK

 

;^)

[Guest guest]

>> brahma-gayatri: om bhur bhuvah svar tat savitur ..) This mantra has nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaisnavism or with the worship of Radha-Krsna.

 

So, you better make a new version on Srimad Bhagavan and take it out the first 2 slokas and its thesis. The reason that meditate in this mantra and in its meaning is a Sarasvata's Paribhar confidential instruction, as well as the many other mantras that you already had mentioned that may present some variation according different Paribharas. One should understand that the gopala-mantra is the main mantra or maha-mantra in the whole gayatri set of mantras, and this mantra is preserved in all bona fide Paribharas.

 

Regarding the siddha-pranali in our line, it follows the same instructions given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his books, and it follows the instructions given by Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[amanpeter]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Before you quote a scripture it is better to known its contempt, otherwise you may be placed in the role of a goof.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I think you meant `content` of scripture and not `contempt`, prabhu. Looks like you made a `goof`! Must this continue endlessly? I mean REALLY!