Iskcon [good or bad]

[shvu]

 

Individual preference is something that has to be respected. I am posting this after reading some recent allegations on this forum. The following is an answer from Shrisha Rao, the maintainer of the www.dvaita.org website, to someone's question on Iskcon.

 

Q: A friend's 20 year old son is considering joining the Hare Krishna Society. Anyone wish to comment on the wisdom of this decision?

 

Shrisha Rao: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first and most important rule of secularism and religious freedom is that one should not be judgemental about the choices others make, and should accept that others have the same right to make choices -- even different, seemingly incorrect ones. Look at

it another way -- if we allow ourselves the luxury of comment, it is not too far a stretch to say that others will emulate our example and comment upon our choices. That said, the person considering joining the Hare Krishnas isn't quite a child. He is old enough to vote, marry, drive an automobile, be tried for any suspected crimes as an adult, etc. As such, he should have the same

freedom as anyone else. It is thus that I believe no Hindu will ridicule the would-be Hare Krishna. Other faiths and traditions have histories of fatwas, jihads and Inquisitions, but Hinduism and bigotry are as far apart as can be.

 

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

 

***

 

Cheers

[Gauracandra]

Iskcon is neither good nor bad. Its a collection of a very diverse group of people, with various levels of realizations. As with everything in the material world, there will be bad elements, as is the case with every institution and group of people. But there are also a lot of sincere, devoted individuals who wish nothing more than to worship the Almighty in a fashion that they find attractive.

 

Hopefully we can all find a common ground in which to relate to one another and the Almighty. Sri Caitanya said that common ground is Hari Kirtana. So regardless of technical philosophical differences, those who are Vaisnavas can be united in singing the praises of God.

 

Haribol.

 

Gauracandra

[Gauracandra]

I started thinking about this some more and had a wonderful realization. This is in relation to the diversity in Iskcon. Now, I can only speak in regards to my local temple, but I started to visualize all of the people who attend every week and I honestly can't think of a more diverse congregation.

 

We have of course the most commited individuals who are the brahmacharis and brahmacharinis wearing dhotis and saris and who attend all the worship services in the morning. Then of course we have the community devotees who work outside (such as myself). In terms of age, we have young kids running around, and old men. Racially we have blacks, whites, asian (chinese, japanese, and philipino), hispanics, and Indians. We have a parapelegic (paralized from the neck down who is wheeled in front of the deities), we have some local homeless man who has a set of japa mala. He keeps to himself, chants, and then comes for the sunday feast. Every few months there is a really tall african tribal who comes. He is like 6ft 5 inches tall, wears traditional african garb, holds a sort of "danda" walking stick, and has those african plates in his lip. I'm not kidding, he actually has a plate in his lip, and in his ears. But he comes and pays respect to the deities. We have a midget, I swear to God, wearing tilak and dhoti (he's a westerner) who dances in the temple. We have many Indian engineers whoe are very conservative and respectful. They mostly stand with folded hands paying respects to the deities. We have those who are wealthy and those who are poor, and just a large group of middle class working westerners who come. We have one lady who is extremely rich who drives around in a Jaguar. We also have some neighborhood guy who has this big Elvis style hair and sideburns. He never comes to the temple, but loves the sunday feasts. We have Russians, and Mexicans, and an Australian. And I could go on and on. I honestly can't think of any church, temple, synagogue or mosque that I have ever been to having such a wide range of completely different people. But they have all come together under the banner of Sri Caitanya to engage in Hari Kirtana. Just thinking about it started to make me laugh.

 

All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya. Haribol.

 

Gauracandra

[Guest guest]

Before entering at any path, one should at least first known his destination. At any stage of sanatana-dharma one should be aware of his next aim. Otherwise he will fail in his enterprise of yoga.

 

One should consider that the path of yoga is a threefold path. If one takes off one of these supports of the yoga's tripod, all the structure ruins. No objective will ever be attained.

 

Nowadays in many institutions, including Iskcon, there is no living guru manifested. One of the supports of the yoga's structure is absent. The result to be attained will be only temporary and mundane religion.

 

Considering this point we may say that to enter Iskcon, or any advaitava mission, Catholic Church missionary order, and so on, can give one kama, artha, dharma and even moksa, but never prema-bhakti.

 

As prema-bhakti is the aim in Iskcon, this aim won't be attained only because one is a member of the institution, due the lack of guru-pranali.

 

Sri Guru is not an institution. While manifesting his activities in this world, Sri Guru may establish an institution meant to fulfil his mission. After his depart this institution may be helpful or not. If another living guru is manifested in that institution, it is fine. Otherwise it cannot help too much.

 

There are counteless examples of institutions that breakup after the departure of their acaryas, including Gaudiya-math.

 

Sri Guru may manifest himself anywhere, one should be fortunate to hear from him and to have his mercy.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[amanpeter]

___________

Gauracandra

posted 05-05-2001 07:20 AM PT (US)

 

I started thinking about this some more and had a wonderful realization. This is in relation to the diversity in

Iskcon. Now, I can only speak in regards to my local temple, but I started to visualize all of the people who

attend every week and I honestly can't think of a more diverse congregation.

 

We have of course the most commited individuals who are the brahmacharis and brahmacharinis wearing dhotis

and saris and who attend all the worship services in the morning. Then of course we have the community

devotees who work outside (such as myself). In terms of age, we have young kids running around, and old men.

Racially we have blacks, whites, asian (chinese, japanese, and philipino), hispanics, and Indians. We have a

parapelegic (paralized from the neck down who is wheeled in front of the deities), we have some local

homeless man who has a set of japa mala. He keeps to himself, chants, and then comes for the sunday feast.

Every few months there is a really tall african tribal who comes. He is like 6ft 5 inches tall, wears traditional

african garb, holds a sort of "danda" walking stick, and has those african plates in his lip. I'm not kidding, he

actually has a plate in his lip, and in his ears. But he comes and pays respect to the deities. We have a midget, I

swear to God, wearing tilak and dhoti (he's a westerner) who dances in the temple. We have many Indian

engineers whoe are very conservative and respectful. They mostly stand with folded hands paying respects to the

deities. We have those who are wealthy and those who are poor, and just a large group of middle class working

westerners who come. We have one lady who is extremely rich who drives around in a Jaguar. We also have

some neighborhood guy who has this big Elvis style hair and sideburns. He never comes to the temple, but loves

the sunday feasts. We have Russians, and Mexicans, and an Australian. And I could go on and on. I honestly can't

think of any church, temple, synagogue or mosque that I have ever been to having such a wide range of

completely different people. But they have all come together under the banner of Sri Caitanya to engage in Hari

Kirtana. Just thinking about it started to make me laugh.

 

All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya. Haribol.

 

Gauracandra

___________

 

 

Thank you for a very positive and inspiring post, prabhu. I've copy/pasted it onto the Dharma-mela forum and would like to invite you there. Caution: it can get rather nasty at times...www.islandnet.com/krsna/homepage/istagosi/mela/mela.htm

[Gauracandra]

Hey Peter,

 

Thanks for the compliment. Never heard of the Dharma-mela forum before, but I'll check it out. Thanks for the reference. Take care.

 

Gauracandra

[kailasa]

It is very kind of you to show such care about ÈÑÊÊÎÍ sivu, by your prays ÈÑÊÊÎÍ will reach(achieve) spiritual prosperity. ÈÑÊÊÎÍ it is not good and not poorly, it transcendent.

[Guest guest]

Iskcon & Krsna-prema

 

The aim in Gaudiya-vaisnavism, the branch of Vaisnavism that follows Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's precepts is krsna-prema. It is not mukti (liberation) and it is not bhukti (material sense gratificantion) neither in this world or in the next (Svaga).

 

As the main practice to attain this krsna-prema Sriman Mahaprabhu has instructed the congregational chanting of harinana, or harinama sankirtana. Besides that main instruction, Sri Caitanya also recommends a theist creed. Mayavada should be avoid by those who are trying to attain this kind of goal.

 

Supposedly Iskcon is doing sankirtana and preaching against mayavada and other nirvisesavadis creeds.

But mayavadis are also preaching! They are considered sadhus by most of the people, they are doing a lot of book distribution all over the world, they have nice farms, excellent asramas, so many temples, gurukulas, high- schools, colleges, universities, they are spreading harinama, distributing prasada, and so on. They praise bhakti and tell to all people to practice bhakti as they do!

 

So, why are they to be consider as mayavadis? Their sadhana (effort to self realization) is to attain Sri Krsna, they want to be united with God, they are very pious and spend all day studding sastras, doing puja, chanting harinama, and so on. There are so many missions of mayavadis with a lot of success, much more then ours.

 

In his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1,3,46, 47, 48), Srila Rupa Goswami explains their condition:

 

varanasi-nivasi ksacid ayam vyaharam harescaritam

yati-gosthyamutpulakah siñcati gandadvayimasraih

 

"Once, in the city of Varanasi (Mayavadis's capital), a sannyasi was chanting the names of Hari in an assembly of sannyasis and eventually he began trembling and tear started from his yes (symptoms of bhakti bhava?). While chanting harinama he was thinking; "Aha! By such a simples process I will attain moksa!"

 

daivat sad-bhakta-sangane kirtanadyanusarinam

prayah prasana-manasam bhogo moksadi-raginam

 

kesanciddhrdi bhavendoh pratibimba udancati

tad-bhakta hrnnabhahsthasya tat samsarga-prabhavatah

 

"Exhibiting such trembling and shedding of tears is not easy for an mayavadi because jñana (impersonal knowledge of Brahman) and vairagya (dry renunciation) make the heart hard and push away all the symptoms of bhakti, which is tender by nature.

 

"Even though in the process of sravana and kirtana conduced by the mayavadis the disease of the desires for sense gratification (bhukti) and liberation (moksa) exists, they still feel a little pleasure in their hearts from theirs performance of sravana and kirtana of harinama.

 

"If at such time by some good fortune they obtain the association of pure devotees of Bhagavan (sad-bhakta-sangena), then by the effect of that association, the bhava which has arisen like the moon in the sky of the hearts of the sad-bhaktas, is reflected even in their hearts which are contaminated by the impersonal conception (vysaya-tattva)!

 

"Such an occurrence can sometimes cause a little ecstasy and shedding of tears. But when again they lack the association of such devotee, they deride the tears and trembling of their own disciples as fraud or cheating. Hence, bhakti can never appear in the heart covered by impersonal jñana (the knowledge of vysaya-tattva only), but sometimes there is the appearence of bhakti-abhasa (a semblance of real bhakti)."

 

Mayavadis do attain the first symptoms of bhakti, they are all stating that they are preaching bhakti and do respect bhakti as a very elevated discipline. They chant harinama and quickly attain klesaghni, that brings immediate relief from all kinds of material distress; subhada, that brings all auspiciousness; and moksa, they can attain liberation with those practices. They are experts in vysaya-tattva and all methods of how to attain that tattva.

 

They are to be consider mayavadis due their lacking of association with sad-vaisnavas. Without this association, the main desire in our heart will be how to attain moksa; liberation, rather impersonal (to go to the Brahman) either personal (to immerge in Sri Bhagavan's personal form).

 

But only by association with asraya-tattva, sad-bhaktas, one is able to attain moksa-laghutakrta, liberation becomes insignificant before it; sudurlabhata, this is rarely achieved; sandrananda-visesatma, it grants intense transcendental pleasure; and krsnakarsini, it is the only means to attract Sri Krsna, that are the characteristics of bhava and prema.

 

There in only one bhakti formula: bhakti = sadhu-sanga. By sadhu-sanga we consider the personal association with those sadhus who are in the category of asraya-tattva. They are plenary portions, or part of these portions of Srimati Radhika, like all of the member of our guru-tattva. The association with them begins with the acceptation of diksa in their line. Otherwise, even with the conception of being a bhakta, one is actually a deviated mayavadi.

 

It is only by hearing sabdha-brahma (pure spiritual sound) being vibrated as harinama by the mouths of such sad-sadhus and thereafter repeating it continuously that one may fulfill the premise to attain krsna-prema as prescribed by Sriman Mahaprabhu.

 

In institutions like Iskcon sad-sadhus are not allowed to be heard. No sabdha-brahma is possible there. Harinama is such conditions is only namaparadha, not even namabhasa. Pure nama is never manifested in such situation, and krsna-prema will never rises.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[amanpeter]

Dear Kailasa, HARIBOL! Prabhu, although I cannot understand your brave attempts at English, it's very obvious that you are a sincere devotee. Please pray to Srimati Radharani Herself, as honestly and intimately as possible, revealing your heart fully to Her only. She is the secret magic ingredient that makes EVERYTHING work! Don't stop until She shows Herself to you personally. Then you will understand everything much better. In these difficult and confusing times, God is very close to protect and guide sincere souls. That is HER role, prabhu, but just for devotees. Trust and believe in your unique relationship with HER, even if others try to discourage you. Worship Krsna, but confide in Radha. Her shelter is absolutely essential on this path, especially now, for all sincere Bhaktas. Srimati and the Holy Names will get you through anything! Respectfully, Peter

[kailasa]

Mine English! The grandmother spoke me....

It not I it Magic Goddy. Is guilty.

Actually I feel set of good feelings even from those with whom I argue, here there are a lot of raised souls, I speak it completely seriously. What to speak about your wish Peter! For me Radharany it Lord Caytanya, I see as he goes on Navadvipa. before I worshipped Krisna, but to serve Krisna very hardly, and to worship Radharany at me have beaten off desire some devoted here in Russia. If I shall worship Lord Caytanya?

Having seen Radharani as Lord Caytanya, devoted ceases to care of itself, it(he) simply goes a trace in a trace where his(its) God has set off. How I shall leave Sri Caytanya? For me it is final item.

[amanpeter]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mine English! The grandmother spoke me....

It not I it Magic Goddy. Is guilty.

Actually I feel set of good feelings even from those with whom I argue, here there are a lot of raised souls, I

speak it completely seriously. What to speak about your wish Peter! For me Radharany it Lord Caytanya, I see

as he goes on Navadvipa. before I worshipped Krisna, but to serve Krisna very hardly, and to worship Radharany

at me have beaten off desire some devoted here in Russia. If I shall worship Lord Caytanya?

Having seen Radharani as Lord Caytanya, devoted ceases to care of itself, it(he) simply goes a trace in a trace

where his(its) God has set off. How I shall leave Sri Caytanya? For me it is final item.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Yes, Lord Caitanya came in the mood of Sri Radha and preferred to be worshipped as Her, not Krsna. It is good to serve that mood in Him, which will surely lead to Radhika. If we can accept that Krsna wants only Radha and that our position is to assist in their relationship by connecting to Her, not trying to replace or imitate Her, that is enough for now. Prabhupada once said that every bramacari should fall in love with Srimati Radharani. She is certainly our dearmost friend and Divine Mother, also. When we need emotional support and comfort, She is the one to turn to for shelter, not Krsna. If you feel that closeness with Mahaprabhu it is only due to Her Mahabhava. ALL GORIES TO GAURANGA GAURANGI!

[kailasa]

> but NOT the BRAINWASHING Fanatism and RITUALISM of SANTARASA SPECULATORS!

 

Where yours PREMA , dear? Similar you have reached(achieved) mathuria having passed infernal Neutral race, you should write the books on this subject, the history of such examples does not know. That that is hardly trusted in ' UJJVALA PREMA ',

 

> but NOT the BRAINWASHING Fanatism and RITUALISM of SANTARASA SPECULATORS!

 

Hunt for witches in the form ' UJJVALA PREMA ',

 

To dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa

 

> there is no living guru manifested.

What it would mean? Where to find alive guru? ÈÑÊÊÎÍ it is a sect tightening(delaying) in the network of the unfortunate people, but true that in the other place!?? I have admitted(allowed) a mistake and Now there is a good moment her(it) to correct.

Where to set off in ' UJJVALA PREMA?, flight in PREMA and then the search of the fanatics? is terrible. To live to one criticizing all in succession, it is indecent as that. About! MAYAVADIS! All is brahman! All fools in quality and sects, I soul, I supersoul, I all - last, present, future, All is uniform and to think it is not necessary much. Not bad..............

Uncle has told there is no at you guru, wrong guru, wrong purpose and living so I never! I never shall reach(achieve) nothing. Probably it(he) knows the truth, it would be necessary to ask, Well and where? Whether I can remaining there where I is to reach(achieve) the spiritual purpose? Or at first it is necessary to leave awful ÈÑÊÊÎÍ? With the washed out brains, not accepting anybody except for the exclusive opinion, living in an environment of the fanatics, what that of the awful persons. At you is not present PREMA , PREMA here, there, only not in ÈÑÊÊÎÍ!

I agree even on bhava, me will suffice and what it at you is?

How sivu by the plan?

 

To Gauracandra

 

Last years I have estimated in practice how many freedom I has received in ÈÑÊÊÎÍ, that who that will help me though than that, I doubt. We too live quietly here and there is no ransacking in searches "perfection,"....And most likely and not of perfection even.

[Dasha]

Thank Gauracandar, you just gave the definition of ISKCON I would have like to give.

 

Krsna says that He is God, the ISKCON members beleive what He says and so they whorship Him.

There may be some time some sectarian behaviors, but Srila Prabhupada's mouvement is everything but a sect. Everybody who wants to whorship God can come in any ISKCON temple and whorship Him, take nice prasadam, chant His Names and take to devotionnal service. They may be Hindus, Christians, Jewes or Muslims it does not matter as long as they have the desire to serve God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As prema-bhakti is the aim in Iskcon, this aim won't be attained only because one is a member of the institution, due the lack of guru-pranali. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Yes, but Krsna as Paramatma is in your heart and can direct you whenever He wants to a bonafide guru who can pick you up for this world of nescience. He says in the Bhagavad Gita that whatever step you have done is never lost, so even if by bad fortune you do not find "your" guru in this life time you will go on the same way in your next life. This life or the next, what is the difference for Krsna, it is just a question of time, and Krsna is also the all-devouring time (as He says in the Gita too).

 

So too come back to ISCKON, maybe there is a lack of gurupranali for the time been (I would not juge of that by myself), but this mouvement is meant to go on as long as there will be sincere devotees wanting to preache the message of Lord Chaytania Mahaprabhu. If this desire is bonafide in the mouvement, then Krsna been The Supreme Person as all the facilities to make it going on.

 

No blade of grass can move whithout the sanction of the God. What to speak of His mouvement.

 

Let us chant the Holy Name and dance in extasy.

 

Hari Haribol.

[kailasa]

>But mayavadis are also preaching! They are considered sadhus by most of the people, they are doing a lot of book distribution all over the world, they have nice farms, excellent asramas, so many temples, gurukulas, high- schools, colleges, universities, they are spreading harinama, distributing prasada, and so on. They praise bhakti and tell to all people to practice bhakti as they do!

 

And all? Is not present it yet everything, they even more cultural and decent(considerable) people.

 

>So, why are they to be consider as mayavadis?

Philosophy at them such, they by the way also do not distinguish, all spiritually, on mahabhagavata even is very similar.

 

>Their sadhana (effort to self realization) is to attain Sri Krsna, they want to be united with God, they are very pious and spend all day studding sastras, doing puja, chanting harinama, and so on. There are so many missions of mayavadis with a lot of success, much more then ours.

 

And thus do not receive practically any of progress, " mayavady aparadhe ". Now all world it mayavady, why by him(it) to not prosper?

 

1) In institutions like Iskcon sad-sadhus are not allowed to be heard.

2) There in only one bhakti formula: bhakti = sadhu-sanga.

 

Sadhu can be in institute and outside of it(him). Sadhu it not Shvarcnegger On public. this statement (1) has of any basis.

Well who on yours sadhus, where I should go?

 

 

[kailasa]

Lord Caitanya also is embodied mahabhava (Radharani), Lord Caitanya is Krsna in mood Radharani. Nevertheless Lord Caitanya is more absorbed Krsna, though it is difficult about it to speak. The purpose Krsna, but through a society(community) Radharani.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami's Glories

 

Sadhya means goal, the aim of one's effort. And sadhana means the effort itself, that one should do to reach his sadhya.

 

One who does not know his sadhya should never be successful in sadhana. It would be like someone who does not know where to go and ride into a bus, and in the end of the journey complains to everyone that he was cheated. He could not reach any place.

 

In our sampradaya sadhya is krsna-prema in a very specific modality named gopi-bhava. To reach that sadhya, our acaryas thought a process that is definite in the following sloka from Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu:

 

anyabhilasita-sunyam jñana-karmady anavritam

anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama

 

"The superior quality of devotional service to Krsna is to act favorably for the Personality of Godheat. This means that the service must not be covered by the path of the monists, fruitive workers or desires other than devotional service." (Translated by Srila Bhaktivedanta A C Swami Goswami)

 

In our sampradaya the initial sadhana prescribed for kanistha-adhikaris (neophyle practitioners) is offering the results of one's fruitive activities to Bhagavan (karmarpanam).

However, the principal practice is established as suddha-bhakti, or bhagavat-parama-prasad sadhana, as stated by all of our acaryas.

 

Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami has had the responsibility in bringing bhakti to Western countries in a special form that was never saw before in this kalpa. Obviously, most of his followers would be at the kanistha platform of practices and therefore were not qualified to do anything else than karmarpanam.

 

No one would blame the acarya if his kanistha disciples were only qualified to do karmarpanam and if some of them could not do even that kind of karma-misra-bhakti. No one should blame him if his disciples had commit so many misdeeds in the name of bhakti or in sake of imagining to follow his instructions.

 

Actually the development in bhakti is gradual and one should only reach at the highest level by association with sad-vaisnavas, constantly hearing from them. In all of his books and lectures, Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami has stressed the importance of sadhu-sanga and the paramount importance in hearing from real sadhus.

 

Unfortunately some of his kanistha followers had achieved the wrong conclusion that they were already sadhus, uttama-maha-bhagavatas and therefore, they were fully competent to became gurus and fit to be worshiped. They despised the association with senior vaisnavas and had rejected hearing from them. The result was that they could not make any advancement in bhakti and all of their activities remained at the platform of karma-misra-bhakti.

 

Gosalas, gurukulas, farms, book distribution, new temples, varnasrama and so on are not limbs of bhakti; these are karmic activities that one would offer its results to Sri Bhagavan in the karmarpanam stage of practice. But that aropa-misra-bhakti is always impure and would never fully satisfy the self. Only suddha-bhakti may convey the full satisfaction to the soul and nothing else. That kind of suddha-bhakti is only available in association of sad-vaisnavas. Avoiding this kind of association one should only have impure bhakti and the anarthas caused by bhakti itself, such as labha, puja and pratistha.

 

Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami's books and lectures are full of instructions of sudha-bhakti. In his books he had stressed more than 300 times Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada's verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu :

 

anyabhilasita-sunyam jñana-karmady anavritam

anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama

 

"The superior quality of devotional service to Krsna is to act favorably for the Personality of Godheat. This means that the service must not be covered by the path of the monists, fruitive workers or desires other than devotional service." (Translated by Srila Bhaktivedanta A C Swami Goswami)

 

That was his utmost precept and he is completely in Srila Rupa Goswami's line. His instructions were to advance in bhakti and then to avoid any kind of karma and speculative jñana.

 

Without sadhu-sanga there is no possibility to access paramartika platform, where no material gunas are present (nirguna-bhakti). Bhakti will be always polluted and a fake. Its results will be moksa, not prema-bhakti. Following this path, Iskconers would meet all the mayavadis that they always combat at the end of their route.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Ananga]

Although the kid would derive some limited benefit in learning some basic things, it would not be worth the involvement with the undesirables he might be exposed to. Also, he might actually be in some real physical danger, based on numerous reports over the years. If he/she were a strong enough individual, then there would be less risk, however cultish brainwashing could take its toll. I vote nay!

[kailasa]

>Although the kid would derive some limited benefit in learning some basic things, it would not be worth the involvement with the undesirables he might be exposed to. Also, he might actually be in some real physical danger, based on numerous reports over the years. If he/she were a strong enough individual, then there would be less risk, however cultish brainwashing could take its toll. I vote nay!

 

At you here votings. Though you have received boundless benefit in study of all basic things. Nevertheless it has not made you all seeing, why that.

What that sivu has ceased to write to me on a box, at you here similar secret society(community)? Advice(council) decides(solves) of destiny of the people, operating the world. Adequately.

[amanpeter]

There is a similar discussion to this concerning ISKCON and it's leadership on another forum called Dharma-mela. All are welcome: www.islandnet.com/krsna/homepage/istagosi/mela/mela.htm

[Guest guest]

quote:

________

Without sadhu-sanga there is no possibility to access paramartika platform, where no material gunas are present (nirguna-bhakti).

____________

 

 

Especially - If the 'sadhusanga' is NOT FROM the Armchair Omniscient Muktas nor with the concoctions and speculations of Samadhistha Sectarian gurus!

 

quote:

__________

 

Bhakti will be always polluted and a fake.

__________

 

 

Just like the ONE PROPAGATED by Kaliyuga Vaishnava Missioneries!

 

Quote:

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Its results will be moksa, not prema-bhakti.

 

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Hardened Ritualist DON'T EVEN have an IDEA of PREMA Bhakti or RASA TATTVA!

 

Those who cann't even control their TEMPER and who promote violence are worshipped as socalled 'gurus' and 'paramahamsas' ,what do they who are in maya know of 'MOKSHA'!

 

quote:

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Following this path, "Iskconers" would meet all the "mayavadis" that they always combat at the end of their route.

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Self-righteous bigots,with 'holier than thou' attitude and soaked in 'hatred and envy' for other Seekers of God

while only paying LIPSERVICE to HUMBLENESS exemplified by Mahaprabhu!

 

Jaya Sri Radhey!

[Guest guest]

Mr. Amil another clone! Now vilasini, not jaysriradhe anymore. Same old hatred feelings.

[kailasa]

Õàðå Êðèøíà Satyaraja dasa!

 

>In our sampradaya the initial sadhana prescribed for kanistha-adhikaris (neophyle practitioners) is offering the results of one's fruitive activities to Bhagavan (karmarpanam).

However, the principal practice is established as suddha-bhakti, or bhagavat-parama-prasad sadhana, as stated by all of our acaryas.

 

It is internal process, who that can offer fruits in a level karmarpanam, who does(makes) that externally same from a level

bhagavat-parama-prasad sadhana.

 

>Srila C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami had the responsibility in maintenance bhakti to Western countries in the special form, which was not, never saw before in it kalpa.

 

It(he) has given a completely standard method for everything, in anything not distinguished from previous acaria.

 

> Obviously, most of his followers would be at the kanistha platform of practices and therefore were not qualified to do anything else than karmarpanam.

 

Already many for a long time have advanced.

 

>No one would blame the acarya if his kanistha disciples were only qualified to do karmarpanam and if some of them could not do even that kind of karma-misra-bhakti.

 

So much people speak Bhava, Prema and not knowing.

 

>No one should blame him if his disciples had commit so many misdeeds in the name of bhakti or in sake of imagining to follow his instructions.

 

Now there are a lot of criminals, all society(community) criminals, who here is pure(clean)?, do not make laugh. They cut the cows and all with a clever kind are present thus, 200 millions abortions per one year at the world, you offer to issue the next religion consecrating Hiranyacsipu? It I about that that the part of these sins lays on the so-called cultural people correctly eating and socially arranged. Certainly on ÈÑÊÊÎÍ beat from different directions, it is important to them to find object

On which background they would be looked " by the decent people ".

 

>In all of his books and lectures, Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami has stressed the importance of sadhu-sanga and the paramount importance in hearing from real sadhus.

 

Sadhus sees as all spiritually, instead of as all financially. It(he) does not preach those neophit, these kanistha hinting the thank is restrained on itself.

 

>Unfortunately some of his kanistha followers had achieved the wrong conclusion that they were already sadhus, uttama-maha-bhagavatas and therefore

 

I never heard such.

 

>they were fully competent to became gurus

 

Guru it madhyama, basically.

 

>They despised the association with senior vaisnavas and had rejected hearing from them.

 

They did(made) mistakes and the part from them for a long time is already corrected. And one grown-up vaisnava has expressed in the attitude(relation) Prabhupada

Among other things, what here to do(make). With many diciples it vaisnava I any more do not want and to talk, as from ALL I hear same, it at all their words, forgive me. A standard set. Reflect on it. What the truth means moksa?, moksa it in the certain body, on the certain planet, in the certain attitudes(relations), whether? I not against they can that that achieve,

But it is not similar to pure(clean) fidelity on VERY many things.

 

> The result was that they could not make any advancement in bhakti and all of their activities remained at the platform of karma-misra-bhakti.

 

These applications are deprived the bases, I already wrote to you it. It is pleasant to me Sarasvati Math and Diciples Puri Maharadja, we actively cooperate.

 

>Gosalas, gurukulas, farms, book distribution, new temples, varnasrama and so on are not limbs of bhakti; these are karmic activities that one would offer its results to Sri Bhagavan in the karmarpanam stage of practice.

 

It is a question of consciousness instead of external activity. But as the majority of the people is concerned financially " with a high-grade feed(meal) ", therefore varnasrama and is necessary. On maximum planets is submitted varnasrama , what here people over demigods? You can To put bricks in prema, and can speak by day about prema not knowing that this such. ÎÊ?

 

>Avoiding this kind of association one should only have impure bhakti

 

Vaisnava do not die. Where receive dialogue yours vaisnavas? There it(he) is received also by(with) ours vaisnavas.

 

> puja

 

That that not seen by(with) I puja, where puja? It is stamps completely far from life, well there is a little property at ÈÑÊÊÎÍ, who there to it(her) enjoys? In the beginning pair of fools was taken by(with) money, these people is constant by all are concerned. Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami was not similar to them, at him(it) Was not of the suitable candidates for sanyas, sanyas per 20 years!, even when Lord Chaitanya accepted sanyas many have expressed anxiety concerning its(her) success.

 

>Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami's books and lectures are full of instructions of sudha-bhakti.

 

Yes. Thank to you.

 

>" The superior quality of devotional service to Krsna is to act favorably for the Personality of Godheat. This means that the service must not be covered by the path of the monists, fruitive workers or desires other than devotional service. " (Translated by Srila Bhaktivedanta A C Swami Goswami)

 

You can apply this verse to any organization. To what there are a lot of anxieties? Suddha vaisnava sees as all develops by the plan the God. If it suddha .

 

>Without sadhu-sanga there is no possibility to access paramartika platform, where no material gunas are present (nirguna-bhakti). Bhakti will be always polluted and a fake. Its results will be moksa, not prema-bhakti.

 

I shall tell honourly anything behind it except for the names I do not see.

 

>Following this path, Iskconers would meet all the mayavadis that they always combat at the end of their route.

 

I former mayavady.

 

 

[haribol]

quote:

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Mr. Amil another clone! Now vilasini, not jaysriradhe anymore.

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'nAn tosti mama divyAnAM

na tu mAM zakyase draSTum anenai' va sva cakSuSA...

pazyame yogam aizvaram'

(Gita 11.8)

 

Have you forgotten what happened to VNN.forums???

 

'athavA bahunai 'tena kim jnAtena tavA 'rjuna ?'

 

(Gita 10.42)