Conciliating Some Adavaita and Dvaita Thesis

[Guest guest]

>> Actually Madhvacharya did say that the Guna of a Jiva is Svaroopa [own nature]. So a Jiva is by nature, Sattvic, Rajasic or Tamasic. And this is permanent and unchangeable. Only the Sattvic Jiva can attain Mukti. From this follows that there are some Jivas which will never attain Mukti.

 

This is a very interesting point, Shvuji.

 

Actually Sri Baladeva Vidhyabhusana has proved in Jada Galta assembly in Jaipur, that this thesis is an interpolation into Sri Madhva's original writings. Sri Baladeva has stated that Madhva was considering jivas in the conditioned state, not in their pure state that is nirguna. There is no contradiction in Madhva's assertive that only sattvic jivas may attain mukti, as this platform is a preliminary premise to advance in sanatana-dharma.

 

Madhva's followers (tattva-vadis) had done many interpolations on Madhva's original writings, and that one was meant to place the brahmins (dominant class in the sampradaya) into a special condition among the others. Only brahmanas attain mukti. This doctrine has no sastric support, and Sri Baladeva has point it out very clearly as an interpolation.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

>> I can understand the concept of love, but what does service to Bhagavan mean? Service implies a server and someone served. The served obviously is benefited by the service. If Krishna is being served by Jivas, what is the benefit that he derives out of this service?

 

Yes, when one employs the word seva, instantly it remembers one a kind of hard relationship, where one is controlled by his boss.

 

But in bhakti-rasa actually Bhagavan is the one who is controlled by love (prema-bhakti). It is a reciprocal relationship where there is no predominated and predominant. Sri Krsna's nature is to relish prema, and jivas are His minute expansions who can fulfil this nature. One may consider jivas as minute sparks of prema. However the intensity and taste of this prema only Sri Hari may appreciate it fully.

 

So, one may observe that seva really means to offer prema and to get prema in return. No hardships.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu]

Actually Sri Baladeva Vidhyabhusana has proved in Jada Galta assembly in Jaipur, that this thesis is an interpolation into Sri Madhva's original writings.

 

That is surprising. The tenets were laid out by Vyasa-thirtha, who is recognized as one of the greatest scholars of their line. Madhva in his own writings describes Vishnu as one who rewards the good and punishes the bad with eternal damnation. So I don't know about the authenticity of such a story.

 

Madhva's followers (tattva-vadis) had done many interpolations on Madhva's original writings, and that one was meant to place the brahmins (dominant class in the sampradaya) into a special condition among the others. Only brahmanas attain mukti.

Again, Vyasathirta was one who rose above castes. He ignored opposition from the Brahmins and encouraged worship by all castes. It was due to him that the Hari-dasa tradition grew and flourished. He took Kanakadasa [was was of low birth] as his disciple on par with his other Brahmana students. He also went on to show that Kanaka was superior compared to his other students.

 

If one has visited the Udipi temple, there is a Kanakana-kindi [Kanaka's window] in the temple. According to legend, since Kanaka was of low-birth, he was not allowed inside the temple. He went behind the temple and started singing devotionally. Krishna turned around to give darshana to his devotee.

 

The Brahmana concept is an integral part of all Vedanta.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-10-2001).]

[shvu]

 

There are also cases of people becoming Brahmanas by virtue of their Tapas [viz, Vishwamitra]. He was born a Kshatriya and became a Brahmana later in life.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Madhva in his own writings describes Vishnu as one who rewards the good and punishes the bad with eternal damnation.

This usage of eternal punishment is found in the Gita as well as several Upanishads. Even Gaudiya schools use this term of eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), but the usage is that it is beyond measurement of time, not lierally eternal.

 

I have heard the assertion several times that madhva supports the three grades of jivas, but am yet to see the particular reference to judge it. All Vedantic schools accept the atma as nirguna, situated beyond sattva, rajas and tamas. To give material attributes to the spirit soul is self defeating, as the soul is no longer spiritual.

 

 

As far as brahmanism in the Madhva line, it is very prevelant. The majority of followers believe only madhva brahmanas can attain Vaikuntha. This is odd since in their line come many dasas of Sri Hari who belong to lower castes. But I think it is a general trend thoughout India that brahmins have tried to take a monopoly on God and religion - even to the point of interpolating texts and changing scriptural statements. This is an unfortunate by-product of Kali yuga, where religion is used to profit from the faithful.

 

In the Gita Krishna clearly says even those coming from sinful birth are able to attain Him through bhakti.

[shvu]

 

dhyeyo nArAyaNaM nityaM sR^ishhTisthitya.ntakArakaH |

bhaktAnAM muktido nityamadhamaj~nAninAM tamaH ||

 

This is the verse by Madhva quoted to support eternal damnation for some and mukti for some. The tenet itself, is based on this verse alongwith the verse of Gita.

 

The Madhvas are known as the most orthodox Brahmins of India. But that is how all Brahmins were until a few years back. Things are changing a lot now. Surprsingly even among such an orthdox group, there have been people like Vyasa-Thirtha. Thus it appears that such a belief is not based on scripture, and is viva voce.

 

The Udipi temple too is open to all now, unlike before. The lunch system is of interest in Mantralaya [the Raghavendra Swamy Matha]. The Brahmins sit separately from the others. One expert will stroll along, casually studying the faces in the Brahmin line. If the expert is doubtful of someone, the person will be taken aside and his gotra and pravara will be questioned. If he cannot answer satisfactorily, he will have to move to the other line. I am guessing the same system exists in Udipi too.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-10-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The lunch system is of interest in Mantralaya [the Raghavendra Swamy Matha]. The Brahmins sit separately from the others. One expert will stroll along, casually studying the faces in the Brahmin line. If the expert is doubtful of someone, the person will be taken aside and his gotra and pravara will be questioned. If he cannot answer satisfactorily, he will have to move to the other line.

I remember many years ago sitting nevously in the brahmana feeding area at mantralaya hoping no one will come to kick me out. Being a sadhu, some people had called me to take meals with them in the brahmana section. I was not aware of the different sections until after sitting. What made me nervous was the fact that I did not speak their language, and I was familiar with their strict "orthodoxy". Generally among sadhus externals such as caste are not looked upon, but unfortunately among ritualistic birth based followers, sometimes the externals become more important than anything else. The essence is lost in favour of the husk. In that particular case, no one questioned me.

 

I always feel uncomfortable sitting in gatherings specified for one particular class of people. You can feel the negative energy of false pride permeate the atmosphere.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Regarding Madhva's statements, I would be more interested in seeing a quote that states the jivas are of three types, and those natures could never be changed eternally.

 

Such a concept goes against the very foundation of bhakti, which is claimed to be so powerful it can purify even the most sinful and degraded (tamo-guna) jiva.

 

[Guest guest]

>> If he is doubtful of someone, the person will be taken aside and his gotra and pravara will be questioned. If he cannot answer satisfactorily, he will have to move to the other line.

 

This is a smarta conduct. As you known, all karmic reactions (pious and sinful) are shared by social interaction, and when one is sitting in the same line and sharing the same food, the interaction is about 50%; i.e., 50% of one's karma is being shared with the others. As smartas are in the bodily conception of life, they judge one according his material birth. Non-brahmanins are sinful people by birth.

 

This is also valid to paramarthika sukrti. If you sit down in a line where there is a paramahamsa, you will have great benefit. So, in most of Vaisnava temples and maths this conduct is followed, and low class of people are placed in a position to do not disturb other's condition. We think you will find this rule all over India.

 

Many of Vaisnava lines are very rigid followers of varnasrama-dharma. The most liberal are Vallabha's sampradaya members. Vallabhacarya has rejected varnasrama-dharma completely, as well of all smrti traditions. No brhamanins, no sannyasis, no distinctions between men and women regarding their spiritual rights. They are indeed very liberal in all aspects.

 

Gaudiya-vaisnavas may be placed in a intermediary platform concerning varnasrama-dharma tradition, while Sri-vaisnavas are the most rigid in all aspects.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

So, in most of Vaisnava temples and maths this conduct is followed, and low class of people are placed in a position to do not disturb other's condition.

But those who come on pilgrimage to a tirtha should not be viewed in terms of caste. They become holy by contact with the presiding deity of the tirtha.

[shvu]

 

Yeah...I find orthodxy very funny ( so do all my friends). We have a couple of Madhvas in our gang and one of them has strict rules at home. One should not enter the kitchen in pants; only dhotis are allowed. So also at the dining table. But my friend himself does not care for such rules. He just got married and has moved out, and these rules will not exist in his family from now on. I guess this is happening in general with all Brahmins as a consequence of changing modus vivendi. Most Brahmins eat at least cakes, if not eggs.

 

This is the impact of culture. No culture remains the same for long.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

I have no corcern regarding caste. I'm just a mleccha and I known my place...