premananda Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Just worship Nitai Gaur and Radhe Shyam. And chant "Hare Krishna Hare Ram" Nothing wrong with that! But everybody does not like, they just wanna criticize. A Babaji saint had a dream in which Sriman Mahaprabhu said these words. So he wanted to repeat them cause he loved Mahaprabhu so much. Another saintly person, Sriman Vimala-prasad Thakur, said he got initiated in a dream, and his followers say he is bona fide. But the Babaji´s dream was false? Who can decide? PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Nothing wrong with chanting Hare Krishna. Of course if someone were to tell me not to chant Hare Krishna out loud in kirtan (and only chant it as japa), then I would have to disagree with them personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted May 12, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 You would disagree? Then you also disagree with Sriman Mahaprabhu, who specifically said that the Maha-mantra is for japa. You can find that verse in Sri Caitanya Bhagavata. (I don´t know where exactly, perhaps Jagat may assist?) Mahaprabhu and His associates chanted many songs while performing sankirtan, but it is not mentioned that they sang the maha-mantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 Sri Vimala Prasad wasn't initiated by dream. Only some talkative babajis made this allegation without any basis. Sri Vimala Prasad was personally and physically initiated by Sri Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, there was many witness on this fact, including his own father Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sri Caitanya-bhagavata (Madhya lila 6 and 23) does states that the maha-mantra Hare Krsna was sung in sankirtana parties by Sriman Mahaprabhu, and also many traditional and ancient reports of this event are related. Here is what is stated in Caitanya-bhagavata, Madhya 23, 18-19): "The Lord then instructed them on the Holy name, "Now listen from Me the Maha Mantra, 'Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.' Go and repeatedly chant this mantra a prescribed number of times. One can achieve all perfections from this chanting so go on repeating these names, for this chanting is not restricted by any rules. You can sit around together five or ten of You in your house and chant or sing this mantra accompanied by the clapping of hands or cymbals. When you are singing together then sing this, "Haraye namah Krishna Yadavaya namah Gopal Govinda Ram Sri Madhusudana. This congregational chanting should be joined by one and all, father, brother, wife, son all together. "Now that the devotees had directly received the mantra and the instructions to chant from the Lord they went back to their homes happily after offering their obeisances to the Lord. They followed strictly the Lord's instructions and all the time chanted Krishna's name, meditating on the Lord's lotus feet. And at the end of the day they assembled in their houses and loudly sang the holy names, gaily clapping their hands and cymbals in rhythm. In this manner Lord Caitanya began inspiring everyone to take up the congregational chanting of the holy name; He went about embracing the devotees encouraging their devotional zeal, placing His own garlands around them. In a most humble manner He went about requesting all, "My dear brothers please serve Krishna." dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa [This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 05-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 >> Just worship Nitai Gaur and Radhe Shyam. And chant "Hare Krishna Hare Ram" Nothing wrong with that! Sure! Nothing wrong with that! This is a slogan, not a mantra! This was babaji's own proselytism. No harm. Everyone knows this instruction. So, what is so surprising in this babaji's dream? In a dream things are not very clear, maybe Mahaprabhu had instructed the babaji to always chant it in sankirtana parties, but the babaji wasn't intelligent enough to understand it. As he was an inveterate inventor, he decided to transform the slogan into a mantra and the real mantra into a dream. What can be done? dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 From a traditional perspective, the Hare Krishna mahamantra isn't a mantra in the general sense. A mantra requires three features, a seed letter, a deity, and an offering. The mahamantra is only compossed of the names of God, and thus in a general sense it is referred to as a nama-mantra. According to mantra-shastra, nama-mantras have no particular rules or regulations that must be observed when chanting. The rules in mantra-shastra that say it is better to chant a mantra in one's mind then externally refer to actual mantras by definition, not to the names of the Lord. Such mantras are to be kept secret and only passed on to a qualified disciple. As such the mantras must be protected by chanting it silently or within. There are other reasons why such mantras should be chanted within, but we won't get into that topic now. In all the Puranas it is advised that the names of the Lord be chanted and sung. To think that the mahamantra, which is just the combinations of Lord Krishna's names, should not be recited aloud is a concoction. Where are the references in the Puranas that state one should not recite the Lord's name? On the contrary it is recommend everywhere that the Lord's names should be chanted loudly. Sri Chaitanya himself has said: namanam akari bahudha nija-sarva-shaktis tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah "Within Your holy names you have invested all of your shakti. There are no regulations nor considerations of time for chanting them." Yama (rules) and niyama (regulations) do not apply to the chanting of the Lords names. This is Sri Chaitanya's direct statement. Again, from a traditional perspective, the Hare Krishna mahamantra is sung in kirtan parties throughout india by many sampradayas, including the Madhva sampradaya, Sri sampradaya, and even the bhajanai sampradayas of Tamil Nadu. There is no traditional reason as to why this mantra should not be sung in kirtana, on the contrary it has been recommended by many saints that it should be sung aloud in groups. Thats why I said, "If someone were to tell me not to chant Hare Krishna out loud in kirtan (and only chant it as japa), then I would have to disagree with them personally." Personally, I value tradition and shastra more than local bengali village customs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 Personally I have always considered Mahaprabhu to be a revolutionary, indiscriminantly giving the process of chanting the holy names of the Lord to one and all. I seriously doubt that Sriman Mahaprabhu would be against devotees dancing in front of the deities, chanting Hare Krsna. This sounds more like the "Hey, look their socks don't match" sort of logic. And if you approach it like that, you may or may not have an understanding of the formalities but you will definitely completely miss the essence. I think Mahaprabhu essentially wanted to have the Lords names on the lips of one and all, as often as possible. I just returned from a short road trip (1 hr) this morning, and was singing the mahamantra as I was driving, and tapping my steering wheel like it was a mrdunga. Would Mahaprabhu be against that? I don't think so. Let us look at the essence of his instruction and apply that to our lives. Gauracandra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananga Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 Unfortunately, most westerners equate the term Hare Krsna with fanatical behavior and dishonesty, and for some even criminal activity. Therefore, not singing the maha mantra in kirtan (for those of you that do not belong to the saffron brigade but still want to propagate Mahaprabhu's tradition) serves to disassociate the movement from negative connotations. There is a need to raise Hinduism in general in the estimation of Christian and other traditions that are going to automatically dismiss the whole realm of Hindu sects as either polytheistic or degenerate cults. This means that Caitanyaism needs to be seen by outsiders in its entirety, rather than as a bunch of those 'Hare Krsna' nuts that like to harrass people in airports for money. Also, some organizations that we know of like to chant their maha-mantra japa out loud, which is some sort of new invention. Traditionally japa means silent recitation of mantras. [This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 05-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 Oh well, what can be said. There will always be those who wish to take any opportunity to criticize rather than discuss philosophically. I think both Satya and JNDas have given reasonable proof and explanation that chanting the Hare Krsna mantra in kirtan is valid. Now that that has been established, we can move onto the next topic, hopefully without the personal attacks by some. Gauracandra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 In spite of all negative aspects legated by some institutional members, most of people can discriminate between sacred and profane. Many Christian orders and their followers are always in the criminal pages of newspapers, sharing the same space with harekrsnas and other new sects. But even ordinary people can understand that Jesus Christ himself has nothing to do with such deviations caused by human misconduct. Here where I leave, harekrsnas are not bad looked, people love maha-mantra, and for many years maha-mantra was a popular hit song in radio, TV and public shows, been sung even in carnival orgies! People in general can understand some of the point of view present by Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami in his books, and do consider him as an empowered saint. The populace can make distinctions between fanatics, hypocrites, lunatics and saints. As we say; "vox populi vox dei." So, maha-mantra is really being chanted in all places and corners of this world, in spite of this babaji's dream advising otherwise. dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted May 13, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 :-P [This message has been edited by premananda (edited 05-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananga Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Gauracandra: Can you really blame those outsiders for formulating such negative opinions, considering the type of behavior that has been displayed by those in the garb of sadhus? Naturally there is going to be bigotry towards non-Christian religions, but that just means that saintly conduct must be demonstrated in order to overcome such prejudice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Originally posted by premananda: If some people don´t like to sing the maha-mantra out loud, what is exactly the problem? Personally I don´t think it is wrong to sing Hare Krishna mantra, but I don´t start a campaign against others who do. It really doesn´t matter. Sriman Mahaprabhu will not deny them love of God because of their particular opinion. Satyaraja dasa, I think you are very arrogant and proud. Your comments about various great Vaishnavas will certainly give some bad karmic reaction. I hope you will change your attitude and follow Sriman Mahaprabhu´s advice of "trinad api sunicena, taror iva sahisnuna". Otherwise your engagement in preaching and chanting will not be very fruitful. PD Good points,Premananda dasa. 'Next time anyone thinks oneself to be perfect... let one try to walk on water...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 I think I am beginning to see what is up here.... this forum is headed down VNN Blvd.! ------------------ PEACE NOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Not if we don't let it. And that 21st Century song didn't help either. Let's not go down the VNN road. I always avoided that place because everyone was attacking each other. VNN was simply a tool of Kali Yuga. I always liked this little corner in the wall because it was small enough that it didn't get out of hand and didn't attract the never-ending attackers over at VNN. We've had vigorous debates in the past, and even gotten in each others faces a few times, but we have more or less kept it under control. Just remember this: We each, individually, add or detract from the atmosphere here. We control how the debates go, and we can keep it as high as we want. Gauracandra [This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 05-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Gaurachandraji, I appreciate your wanting peace.... I want it as well and would like to see a vaishnav forum where that existed. As much as I would like to see peace I would also like to see TRUTH. ------------------ PEACE NOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 As much as I would like to see peace I would also like to see TRUTH. I think thats where debate comes from We all agree on peace, but disagree on what is truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Originally posted by jndas: I think thats where debate comes from We all agree on peace, but disagree on what is truth. Indeed... ------------------ PEACE NOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Hi Jijaji, Peace now, dude Hi SD, Perhaps you should avoid the Babaji topic. I believe you guys have battled it out enough to say everything that you have had to say. Politely agreeing to diagree will be great. Keeping silent should also be ok. Continuing to fight is also ok, I guess. It grieves me [ and a few others as well] to see you old friends fight so Cheers [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speculator Posted May 13, 2001 Report Share Posted May 13, 2001 Originally posted by shvu: Politely agreeing to diagree will be great. Keeping silent should also be ok. Continuing to fight is also ok, I guess. [This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-13-2001).] A Rabbi was asked to adjudiciate a case. The first man presented his argument and the rabbi after his evidence said to him, "You are right." Then the second man presented his arguement and the rabbi after hearing his evidence said, "You are right." At this point,the rabbi's wife turned to her husband and asked, "How can both of these men be right? " The Rabbi thought for a moment,and then said, "Darling, you are also right!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 14, 2001 Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 If some people don´t like to sing the maha-mantra out loud, what is exactly the problem? Geez, this argument is ridiculous. I mean really, really childish. You were the one who said the maha-mantra should not be chanted aloud! And now you are saying we have something against people who chant silently. Please re-read the thread one more time, especially this part: Of course if someone were to tell me not to chant Hare Krishna out loud in kirtan (and only chant it as japa), then I would have to disagree with them personally. See, if someone were to tell me not to chant loudly, I would disagree personally. Is it any clearer now? Your making it out as though me or others are against you chanting softly Please go on chanting. It purifies the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2001 Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 >> If some people don´t like to sing the maha-mantra out loud, what is exactly the problem? The exactly problem is that he is not following Sriman Mahaprabhu's personal instructions as mentioned in Sri Caitanya-bhagavata (Madhya 23.18). He has instructed that maha-mantra should be chanted in a congregational way. Not only in japa. In the beginning of this thread you had mentioned that there was a instruction in Sri Caitanya-bhagavata stating that maha-mantra should never be chanted aloud. Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, however, says exactly the opposite. Now you have no more basis to discuss and therefore, as usual, you come with personal attacks. Please Premanandaji, grow up a little. Find some convincing thesis to support! dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted May 14, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa: >> If some people don´t like to sing the maha-mantra out loud, what is exactly the problem? The exactly problem is that he is not following Sriman Mahaprabhu's personal instructions as mentioned in Sri Caitanya-bhagavata (Madhya 23.18). He has instructed that maha-mantra should be chanted in a congregational way. Not only in japa. In the beginning of this thread you had mentioned that there was a instruction in Sri Caitanya-bhagavata stating that maha-mantra should never be chanted aloud. Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, however, says exactly the opposite. Now you have no more basis to discuss and therefore, as usual, you come with personal attacks. Please Premanandaji, grow up a little. Find some convincing thesis to support! dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa According to your translations anything is possible! What I am trying to say here is that you should show more respect for persons like Sri Radharamancharan das Babaji, even though his group differs from the majority of Gaudiyas. PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted May 14, 2001 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 :-P [This message has been edited by premananda (edited 05-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 14, 2001 Report Share Posted May 14, 2001 Thats funny. I didn't see any of that in this thread up till now. What I saw ws someone saying that if I chanted mahamantra out loud I was disagreeing with Mahaprabhu. Since the thread is going in another direction, I will add my second "if" statement. If someone were to tell me that Nitai was Radha and Gaura was Krishna, I would have to disagree personally; just as I would have to disagree personally if they told me I shouldn't chant the Mahamantra out loud. Nothing wrong with them thinking like that (free universe and all), but I, personally, would disagree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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