Sevaka Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Premananda No it is not forbidden to have doubts, I'm sure all of us do at some point and for that much I'm with you, but after making a choice, as you have done, and although I may have my reasons as to dispute your choice I will not dispute the fact that you have made one. My query is that you are championing the cause of caran dasa babaji whom your guru no doubt rejects as his param guru does and along with all other Gaudiya groups, surely we are to respect the guru and take into account who he suggests we should take inspiration from and not leave it up to our imperfect minds? By the way could you infrom me about Gadadhara Prana's preaching that Gaura Nagara Bhava is the highest zenith of spirituality, I know that he has writen a book on the topic. sevaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted June 8, 2001 Report Share Posted June 8, 2001 Oh yeah, for what its worth, I don't think its necessary to bring up people's personal choices in discussing a philosophical point. We've all been making thousands of spiritual mistakes in our countless previous lives. I hope no one will hold that against us to dismiss our philosophical discussions. Philosophy is quite independent from us. We are followers of a philosophy. Whether it is right or wrong has nothing to do with us. Therefore in judging a philosophy, its pointless to bring up the case of a practitioner. Besides, as Sri Prabhupada has said, even those who are chanting concoted mantras attain states of transcendental bliss. I'm chanting a bonafide mantra and haven't got there yet. So I sure won't be the first to criticize any babaji who is doing sincere sadhana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Sevaka, And of what benefit is that information for the readers, Sir? I admit that I have been very indecisive about which line I am going to follow. So what? That is nobody else´s problem. The only purpose of your posting is to make me look like an idiot, and I admit that I am. You should perhaps think about your own character. You who sit there and judge me and want to make me look like a fool. I feel sorry for you if it gives you any pleasure. By the way, who are you if I may ask? It is proper to present oneself at least when writing about something so personal. P D Originally posted by Sevaka: Premananda. I want to ask you one thing..... What group do you claim affiliation to now? First you were initiated by Govinda Maharaj......then you rejected him and went to Gadadhara Prana........then you rejected him and went back to Govinda Maharaj........then you rejected him and went back to Gadadhara Prana........then.....well I dont know now but my point is that if you are with either of these groups which are both connected to Bhaktivinode Thakur, then you would reject this chanting as the Thakur did himself! So where are you now? or will anyone do as long as they are a Babaji? Thought I'd clarify things for the readers. [This message has been edited by premananda (edited 06-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audarya lila Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Dear Premananda, I agree with you totally. Who you follow is your choice and is not pertinent to this discussion. I also agree that vaishnava saints are inspiring. May we all be blessed with honesty, integrity, humility and, above all, a serving attitude. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Originally posted by Audarya lila: Dear Premananda, I agree with you totally. Who you follow is your choice and is not pertinent to this discussion. I also agree that vaishnava saints are inspiring. May we all be blessed with honesty, integrity, humility and, above all, a serving attitude. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa Thanks for understanding, Audarya Lila dasa ji. The main thing to understand, as always, is that Sri Sri Radha-Krishna have always been in the centre. Every human being questions his choices sometimes. I have been very doubtful at times. But now I see things a lot clearer. It might have to do with age, that one realizes that time is short in this world and one´s direction in spiritual life has to be clear. P D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 In checking the few recorded statements Srila Prabhupada made on this I found his complaint against this mantra is that it doesn't include the full pancha-tattva.He also said it was manufactured with rasabhasa, but choose not to elaborate.He saw no need but to follow what had been previously given. TRANSLATION CC ADI 8.22 Whether he is offensive or inoffensive, anyone who even now chants sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityänanda is immediately overwhelmed with ecstasy, and tears fill his eyes. PURPORT The präkrta-sahajiyäs who chant nitäi-gaura rädhe syäma have very little knowledge of the Bhägavata conclusion, and they hardly follow the Vaisñava rules and regulations, and yet because they chant bhaja nitäi-gaura, their chanting immediately evokes tears and other signs of ecstasy. Although they do not know the principles of Vaisñava philosophy and are not very much advanced in education, by these symptoms they attract many men to become their followers. Their ecstatic tears will of course help them in the long run, for as soon as they come in contact with a pure devotee their lives will become successful. Even in the beginning, however, because they are chanting the holy names of nitäi-gaura, their swift advancement on the path of love of Godhead is very prominently visible. Ädi 8.22 [This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 06-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 To call Sri Radharamancharan das Babaji a sahajiya is rather drastic. ACBSP´s critique of the Bhaja Nitai Gaur chant only shows that he and his guru didn´t understand its meaning. P D Originally posted by Maitreya: In checking the few recorded statements Srila Prabhupada made on this I found his complaint against this mantra is that it doesn't include the full pancha-tattva.He also said it was manufactured with rasabhasa, but choose not to elaborate.He saw no need to but to follow what had been previously given. TRANSLATION CC ADI 8.22 Whether he is offensive or inoffensive, anyone who even now chants sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityänanda is immediately overwhelmed with ecstasy, and tears fill his eyes. PURPORT The präkrta-sahajiyäs who chant nitäi-gaura rädhe syäma have very little knowledge of the Bhägavata conclusion, and they hardly follow the Vaisñava rules and regulations, and yet because they chant bhaja nitäi-gaura, their chanting immediately evokes tears and other signs of ecstasy. Although they do not know the principles of Vaisñava philosophy and are not very much advanced in education, by these symptoms they attract many men to become their followers. Their ecstatic tears will of course help them in the long run, for as soon as they come in contact with a pure devotee their lives will become successful. Even in the beginning, however, because they are chanting the holy names of nitäi-gaura, their swift advancement on the path of love of Godhead is very prominently visible. Ädi 8.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevaka Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Hare Krsna. Thank you for your replies. I mean no offence by what I posted. all I wished to point out is that you bring up these points of discusion that if you were faithful to your line you would not be persuing. A follower of Bhaktivinode has no business with Radharamanacaran dasa babaji or his followers. Not that we should just offend them for the sake of it but we have no business in their line or way of interpreting instructions. This is what I meant. You are in the line of Bhaktivinode but you post all these things about other babajis who the Thakur would no doubt have rejected. Are we to enter into serious discussion with one who cannot make up his mind whose side he is on? Trinad api sunicena may mean that we offer respects to others at a distance but that is where they should stay to us, we should not, in the name of unity, confuse ourselves in the forest of Gaudiya misunderstanding. We need Guru Nistha, that means that what our divine guardian says, we follow. Not that we think "oh I can look around and collect information but not be bewildered" We will end up not knowing which way to turn. I am in the Bhaktivinode parivara following in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta so you may not aggree with me on many points, but every group would say that we should stay within the group we find our faith in and not think that we can go it better alone. Vaisnava dasa sevaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Sevaka, Who are you? We can continue this discussion via e-mail instead. Or are you such a coward that you are afraid to tell me who you are? P D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevaka Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 ok you can mail me at syamananda@hotmail.com. Syamananda is not my name either by the way. sevaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Originally posted by premananda: To call Sri Radharamancharan das Babaji a sahajiya is rather drastic. ACBSP´s critique of the Bhaja Nitai Gaur chant only shows that he and his guru didn´t understand its meaning. P D According to you PD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Originally posted by Maitreya: According to you PD. No, not according to me. Have you read the explanation of the Nitai Gaur chant? I doubt it, because if you had you would understand what I meant. P D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevaka Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Ok. First and foremost I wish to apologise for bringing up Premananda's history in conection with this issue. It was wrong to use this when I feel that the philosophical point I was trying to make stands on its own. The way I posted has deflected the issue which still is yet to be answered: Premananda is a follower of Bhaktivinode but he rejects caran das babaji, and caran das babaji's followers reject him. Why then would you champion his cause which is against your guru and his guru etc? Yes we are all individuals but does that mean that we should go against our lineages philosophy? Again I apologise and hope that the vaisnavas see fit not to hold this against me. daso smi sevaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Originally posted by Sevaka: Hare Krsna. Thank you for your replies. I mean no offence by what I posted. all I wished to point out is that you bring up these points of discusion that if you were faithful to your line you would not be persuing. A follower of Bhaktivinode has no business with Radharamanacaran dasa babaji or his followers. Not that we should just offend them for the sake of it but we have no business in their line or way of interpreting instructions. This is what I meant. You are in the line of Bhaktivinode but you post all these things about other babajis who the Thakur would no doubt have rejected. Are we to enter into serious discussion with one who cannot make up his mind whose side he is on? Trinad api sunicena may mean that we offer respects to others at a distance but that is where they should stay to us, we should not, in the name of unity, confuse ourselves in the forest of Gaudiya misunderstanding. We need Guru Nistha, that means that what our divine guardian says, we follow. Not that we think "oh I can look around and collect information but not be bewildered" We will end up not knowing which way to turn. I am in the Bhaktivinode parivara following in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta so you may not aggree with me on many points, but every group would say that we should stay within the group we find our faith in and not think that we can go it better alone. Vaisnava dasa sevaka I just finished reading this thread, and this particular post stikes me as an example of sectarian, us and them, thinking. Anyone who has understood Chaitanya's teachings through Bhaktivinode Thakhur also understands not only the universality of those teachings, that the branches and sub-branches of the Chaityanya Tree are 'too innumerable to count', and that 'offering respects to all others, without desiring any for oneself' doesn't mean you put everyone and anyone who has chanted the divine names of Nitai-Gaura, Radhe-Syama, in the same catagory and boat as some individuals who may have exploited those names (as well as the 'bonefide' Hare Krishna maha mantra) for self-aggrandizment, or without 'fully understanding' what and who those names represent. The later being hardly a transgression, as Mahaprabhu emphasized 'no hard and fast rules' for chanting. The guru or teacher is successful when the student/disciple graduates and understands that he/she can look around with a clearer vision and accept this, choose that. One eventually sees the self as master (according to SB) and goes on to help others do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premananda Posted June 10, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2001 Sevaka ji I will send you an e-mail soon about it. P D Originally posted by Sevaka: Premananda No it is not forbidden to have doubts, I'm sure all of us do at some point and for that much I'm with you, but after making a choice, as you have done, and although I may have my reasons as to dispute your choice I will not dispute the fact that you have made one. My query is that you are championing the cause of caran dasa babaji whom your guru no doubt rejects as his param guru does and along with all other Gaudiya groups, surely we are to respect the guru and take into account who he suggests we should take inspiration from and not leave it up to our imperfect minds? By the way could you infrom me about Gadadhara Prana's preaching that Gaura Nagara Bhava is the highest zenith of spirituality, I know that he has writen a book on the topic. sevaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananga Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 I suggest Maitreya, Sevak and others stop parroting their guru's statements and indulging in this disgraceful mudslinging. They would be better off to actually study the persons they are slandering firsthand before posting those types of deprecatory remarks. It would serve them right if they were slapped with a libel suit. Their faction makes such a big deal about trnad api sunicena, but when it comes to applying it in practice, they seem to forget all about its meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maitreya Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Bhaja Sri Krishna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda Jaya Advaita, Gadadhar,Srivasadi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Just a brief comment about how "only RRC Das Babaji's disciples don't." This is not true. Through admittedly, the chanting of Hare Krishna in kirtan has increased greatly in the last 150 years, prior to that, it was hardly seen at all. When in India, I did some informal investigation of this. I found that in places far from the urban centres, kirtan festivals with other names, like "Radhe Govinda, Jay Sri Radhe Govinda", etc., were the rule rather than the exception. I also inquired from many professional kirtaniyas, who chanted Hare Krishna in Nama Yajnas. They often told me that their village chanted a particular "nama." In places like Srikhanda and other Sripatas, where the traditions are very solid, their festivals have <u>no</u> chanting of Hare Krishna. They usually sing various bhajans and something like "Narahari priya Gaura Haribol" as a refrain. What Radha Raman Charan Dasji did was to create a formulaic bhajan that combined several elements -- "Nitai Gaura" was and is, obviously, a popular kirtan in Bengal. "Radhe Shyam" is another. These are prefaced by the word "bhaja" meaning loud kirtan. The juxtaposition of these really has no implications for siddhanta other than that these are objects of worship. I doubt that there is anyone who would deny that. The partial "Hare Krishna Hare Rama" part is not to be considered "offensive" as some people claim. One can chant any names of Krishna; there is no need to limit the chanting to the Maha Mantra. To place this limit on the Holy Name is arguably a more serious offense. At any rate, I am not arguing against the loud chanting of the Maha Mantra in kirtan. I am merely observing that it is a relatively recent phenomenon in Bengal. Ys. Jagat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 This discussion of "being true to one's lineage" is interesting to me. One of the big, major points about the Gaudiya Math is that they are NOT true to THEIR lineage. Bhaktivinoda THakur took initiation from Bipin Bihari Goswami. Now, as far as I can tell, BVT never rejected BBG. Yet the Gaudiya Math proudly tells us that he "abandoned" BBG to take siksha from Jagannath Das Babaji. In view of this, if an individual, say Premanandaji, were to continue his search after taking initiation to find a mood in bhajan that suited him more personally, can members of the Gaudiya Math criticize him for that, in view of what they claim in Bhaktivinoda Thakur's personal history? The traditional Vaishnava position is that taking siksha does not cancel one's initiation. And one's initiation does not preclude one's taking siksha from elevated Vaishnavas. I think that in the case of Premanandaji, he has remained true to the basic principle of Gaudiya Vaishnavism -- to Mahaprabhu and Radha Krishna. If he seeks further understanding within these parameters, he can hardly be said to have abandoned his gurus, diksha or siksha. Gadadhar Pran has a strong feeling for Gauranga Nagara bhava. No one can deny this. It is a mood that very few people share. Vrindavan Das did not care much for it, as is clear from his statements in the Chaitanya Bhagavata. Nevertheless, it has a real historical basis in many of Mahaprabhu's associates, including Vasu Ghosh, Narahari Thakur, Murari Gupta, etc. A blanket condemnation of Gaura Nagara bhava does not do justice to this historical truth. In fact, Gadadhar Pran took inspiration from Bhaktivinoda Thakur's devotion to Gadai-Gauranga to enter his particular mood. One more word about Gadadhar Pranji. I have know him for 25 years and we were once close friends. Our relationship has been rocky at times, as we have not always approved of each other's choices in life and our personalities have not always been a perfect fit. But I would like to say this: Gadadhar is an artist and he has the clearest vision of his personal raganuga sadhana of any person I have ever met. Gadadhar is idiosyncratic. There are few who will ever appreciate what he is or what he does and has done. Call him crazy or whatever, but he is an extraordinary individual who has committed his life to Gaura Gadadhar like no one else I know. If you don't find what he does to your taste, then pay him obeisances from a distance. Your servant, Jagadananda Das Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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