The Rape of India

[Guest guest]

Some of our recent acaryas had considered Christ as an avatara of Brahmaji who had a mission to preach Vaisnava-dharma in West at that time.

 

There are also many sastric evidences to support this thesis in both camps, smrtis and Bible. By reading St John Gospel we clearly understand that Jesus is the son of God (a jiva) who spread the verb (Vedas) and he should be considered as the incarnation of the verb (Vedas) who had assumed a fleshly form and had descended among us.

 

St John was Jesus' dearest disciple and was guru nistha and Jesus use to treat him like a son, his Gospel is extremely sweet and one can observe that is following strictly bhakti eternal precepts without any deviation. It is clear that he was in deep samadhi while writing his Gospel and that he was fully connected with his spiritual master.

 

Who is Brahmaji dearest son who is eternally spreading bhakti? Sri Narada Muni, of course. We can clearly observe Sri Narada's personality in St. John's writings.

 

And who is Mary? The mother of the flesh is Mayadevi. When the acaarya says that Mary and Sri Radha are the same, there is no conflict, because Mayadevi is Sri Radha's expansion into this material world. Only Mayadevi can actually be the mother of the incarnated verb and the son of God.

 

The essence of Jesus' teachings is; "One should love God above all the other things." He is stating that prema-bhakti is the aim of all jivas.

 

And he also says; "One should love the others like his own self." As all jivas are part and parcel of God, one should always see the divine nature of all living entities and pay all them his respects.

 

Ad he has taught this single prayer to St. John, that should be spread all over: "Pater nostrum qui est in caelum..." My dear Sri Hari, who is placed in transcendence, may Your name be always sanctify, as He is the only tattva here and hereafter. May Your realm be attained by us, your dear sons. So, he is asking for prema-bhakti and nothing else.

 

And Jesus has also stated; "You will known the Truth and the Truth will relieve you." By the mercy of the holy name all tattvas would be revealed. He was foreseen Sri Caitanya avatara's advent. And many sincere followers of Jesus could witness his prevision, and some even had been personally in India during Sri Caitanya's lila as some Jesuits had reported.

 

These are the Vaisnava's eternal truths.

 

If we consider Jesus Christ under this perspective, as an avatara of Brahmaji, he may be respected as the head of our own sampradaya, and Gaudiya-vaisnavas are eternally linked with him.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

Some of our recent acaryas had considered Christ as an avatara of Brahmaji who had a mission to preach Vaisnava-dharma in West at that time.

 

There are also many sastric evidences to support this thesis in both camps, smrtis and Bible. By reading St John Gospel we clearly understand that Jesus is the son of God (a jiva) who spread the verb (Vedas) and he should be considered as the incarnation of the verb (Vedas) who had assumed a fleshly form and had descended among us.

 

St John was Jesus' dearest disciple and was guru nistha and Jesus use to treat him like a son, his Gospel is extremely sweet and one can observe that is following strictly bhakti eternal precepts without any deviation. It is clear that he was in deep samadhi while writing his Gospel and that he was fully connected with his spiritual master.

 

Who is Brahmaji dearest son who is eternally spreading bhakti? Sri Narada Muni, of course. We can clearly observe Sri Narada's personality in St. John's writings.

 

And who is Mary? The mother of the flesh is Mayadevi. When the acaarya says that Mary and Sri Radha are the same, there is no conflict, because Mayadevi is Sri Radha's expansion into this material world. Only Mayadevi can actually be the mother of the incarnated verb and the son of God.

 

The essence of Jesus' teachings is; "One should love God above all the other things." He is stating that prema-bhakti is the aim of all jivas.

 

And he also says; "One should love the others like his own self." As all jivas are part and parcel of God, one should always see the divine nature of all living entities and pay all them his respects.

 

Ad he has taught this single prayer to St. John, that should be spread all over: "Pater nostrum qui est in caelum..." My dear Sri Hari, who is placed in transcendence, may Your name be always sanctify, as He is the only tattva here and hereafter. May Your realm be attained by us, your dear sons. So, he is asking for prema-bhakti and nothing else.

 

And Jesus has also stated; "You will known the Truth and the Truth will relieve you." By the mercy of the holy name all tattvas would be revealed. He was foreseen Sri Caitanya avatara's advent. And many sincere followers of Jesus could witness his prevision, and some even had been personally in India during Sri Caitanya's lila as some Jesuits had reported.

 

These are the Vaisnava's eternal truths.

 

If we consider Jesus Christ under this perspective, as an avatara of Brahmaji, he may be respected as the head of our own sampradaya, and Gaudiya-vaisnavas are eternally linked with him.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

There is nothing wrong with the worship of Christ, but it is important to follow the proper examples set by acharyas. In the case of Christians, they lack proper acharyas, and thus their processes are mostly speculative anyway.

 

We cannot agree with this thesis. If one consider that Christianity means organized Church and institutional religion meant for lower class people, that is OK. But there are many acaryas and real sadhus among Christians.

 

St. Juan de La Cruz and St. Tereza D'Avila are acaryas in their orders. They were Sriman Mahaprabhu's contemporaries and they had preached purest madhurya-prema. In the same mood of Vraja-gopis, being Lord's eternal paramour lovers. Did you ever read their poems and writings?

 

They had many disciples and followers, and the symptoms of guru-parampara are very clear in the tradition of their orders. For certain they did not employed Sanskrit terms to describe it, but the parampara is there.

 

They were strongly rejected by the official Church due their thesis and preachings, and were only very recently recognized as "Doctors" in the Christian doctrine. Many other orders have a strong link with their fouder-acaryas, such as the Jesuits for example.

 

As we cannot say that the true Gaudiya-vaisnavism is now represented by Iskcon and that in this institution there is a real paramapara-system nowadays, we also cannot judge all Christianity according a superficial point of view on basis of some institutions, missionaries, and so on.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Some of our recent acaryas had considered Christ as an avatara of Brahmaji who had a mission to preach Vaisnava-dharma in West at that time.

 

Srila Prabhupada[AC] said that Jesus Christ had prepared the Western world for the coming of Lord Jagannatha.

 

There are also many sastric evidences to support this thesis in both camps, smrtis and Bible. By reading St John Gospel we clearly understand that Jesus is the son of God (a jiva) who spread the verb (Vedas) and he should be considered as the incarnation of the verb (Vedas) who had assumed a fleshly form and had descended among us.

 

In the first chapter of John it is clear he is accepting Jesus as Brahmaji.Visarga [secondary]creator is described as Jesus.

 

 

Who is Brahmaji dearest son who is eternally spreading bhakti? Sri Narada Muni, of course. We can clearly observe Sri Narada's personality in St. John's writings.

 

Now that is an interest thought, new to me.Is it just a thought or have you heard such from your guru maharja?

 

 

He was foreseen Sri Caitanya avatara's advent. And many sincere followers of Jesus could witness his prevision, and some even had been personally in India during Sri Caitanya's lila as some Jesuits had reported.

 

Satyaraja, I would like to hear much more on this.In it very intriguing.Also what refernces?This is all very new to me.I believe Haridas Thakur was Christ.Just look at the parralels in their lives.Beaten in the market place.Freely gave up their lives.Came back from samadhi in the same form.And more.Some see him also as Prahlada.Interesting topic.

 

If we consider Jesus Christ under this perspective, as an avatara of Brahmaji, he may be respected as the head of our own sampradaya, and Gaudiya-vaisnavas are eternally linked with him.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

YS MC

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 05-18-2001).]

[jijaji]

MC says;

 

".I believe Haridas Thakur was Christ.Just look at the parralels in their lives.Beaten in the market place.Freely gave up their lives.Came back from samadhi in the same form.And more.Some see him also as Prahlada.Interesting topic."

 

Thinking that a great devotee of Mahaprabhu like Haridas Thakur is Jesus is based on nothing but your own religious sentiment and speculation.

 

 

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PEACE NOW

[Maitreya]

Yes it might be just speculation.But Haridas was an expantion/incarnation of Brahma.So it is not an unreasonable thought if Christ is also the same.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In the Bhavishya Purana there is mention that Christ came from the surya-mandala, and Mohammad came from Kailasha.

 

I have always seen a lot of effort to link Brahma and Jesus, but I don't see any evidence for it.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

Satyaraja, I would like to hear much more on this.In it very intriguing. Also what refernces?

 

It's really an amazing event. Some people of BBT here in Brazil were working in this research when I was there, 6 years ago. They even went to Portugal to find all sources in Torre do Tombo, an official and ancient archive of history.

 

They fond out that in the 2nd Portuguese expedition to discover the Oceanic way to India (the same that has discovered Brazil), there were some very learned Jesuits. Not ordinary missionaries, but persons like Frei Henrique de Coimbra, who was a Professor of the University of Coimbra, the oldest University of Europe and his party. And also many nobles personalities, erudite in several arts such as linguistic, cartography, astronomy, and so on. It was the largest expedition that Europe has ever sent to a Discovery journey.

 

They arrived at Calicut (Calcutta), who was discovered by Vasco da Gama 2 years before. They were also a merchant expedition, for certain, and the main market at Coromandel cost at that time was Saptagrama, as you may know (consult your folio and put the word Portuguese, and you will see that according Prabhupada the Portuguese use to trade at that place).

 

Portuguese would never trade with muslins, as they were foes since more than 1,000 years. They were looking after the 'canarin' King or ruler of Calicut and by the descriptions they went to Govardhana and Hiranya, the father and the uncle of Sri Raghunata das Goswami. Canarin mean canary, the saffron bird, as the Portuguese were impressed with the dresses of the religious people who where not muslins, and they use to dress this color all over India, they called them canarins.

 

As they did known the name of the religion of the Indians, they refer them to be canarins, as well as thier Kings and rulers, to differ them to the muslim. They would never make any contact or business with people like Hussein Shah, who is well described in the chronic as a non-believer and a foe.

The cleric people, when arriving Saptagrama, went to inland to seek after temples, saintly people, and so on. They also are seeking after the kingdom of the legendary Preste João, a Eastern Christian king that they imagine to live in India, and they hoped to find a Christian kingdom near by.

 

The local people drove then to a fantastic saint, very tall and gold fashioned, who was always chanting 'Hari! Hari!' They met this personality and got mad. They could not understand what happened with them after their meeting.

 

They never stop to cry out 'Hari! Hari!' for their whole lives and all considered them mad. Indeed they met Sri Gauranga in India. These Jesuits weren't ordinary people, they could understand who was the personality that the met in India.

 

When they regress to Portugal, they have a interview with the King, and told him everything what happened in India. They reported that they had fond the largest treasure of their lives near the mouth of the Ganga, the "El Dorado" (The Golden One), a giant saint who was repeating the Name that Jesus told us as a secret in his prayer; "Hari! Hari!"

 

The Spaniard spies were there in the court, they went back to Castella (Spain) and reported to their King that the Portuguese had discovered a place named El Dorado, near by the mouth of the Ganga in India. The largest treasure of the world was there!

 

Spaniards were in America at that time, but they imagine to be in India, and when they discovered the Amazon river, and the Mississippi river they assume to be the Ganga and try to reach the El Dorado by those rivers.

 

Unfortunately, after the BBT breakup over here, these researches were interrupted. But all sources are there in Portugal, if someone is interested to continue, just go on. The door is open!

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[amanpeter]

Dear MC, Ramakrishna Mission has many books on Christ and vedanta you may be interested in. Their ultimate conclusion is, unfortunately, impersonal. The phone number for San Francisco is 415-922-2323.

 

 

Dear Satyaraj, This forum has a spell checker you may find useful as sometimes your posts can be misinterpreted. There are other features there, also, like a theasaurus. Peter

 

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Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Didn't someone say "The last Christian died on the cross"?

[Maitreya]

Thanks amanpeter, but I avoid reading their conclusons.

 

I have tried to follow the recent debates between Satyaraja and shvu however.

 

When I read of the character of Prahlada or any realized soul from the SB my appreciation for the nature of all devotees is enhanced, including Lord Jesus Christ.That will have to do for now.

 

Hare Krishna

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

They arrived at Calicut (Calcutta)...

Actually Calicut is in Kerala, it is distinct from Calcutta.

[Guest guest]

Actually Calicut is in Kerala, it is distinct from Calcutta.

 

Yes, that was the place were Vasco da Gama first arrived, at Malabar coast. Cabral's expedition went also to the other Calicut (Kalicut) that was in the Coromandel cost at the mouth of Ganga.

 

[ggohil]

I am not an expert on Christianity, my postings is based on what I have learned from talking to people of Christian faith.

 

Taking up Christianity would mean adopting following ideas.

 

1. Fear of God and Satan.

2. Submit out of fear of Satan.

3. Animals have no souls.

4.Only Christians will be saved. This also could mean too bad for people who have no access to Christianity.

5. Offer no explanation why, as to some are born with silver spoon and some are born just to starve and die.

6. You only have this life time to learn to love Jesus so you could to be saved.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

In the Bhavishya Purana there is mention that Christ came from the surya-mandala, and Mohammad came from Kailasha.

 

That's is a good evidence, as surya-mandala is in the way to Satya-loka, a different way from Kailasa. We see no contradiction here.

 

We can provide some astric evidences on that.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by ggohil:

I am not an expert on Christianity, my postings is based on what I have learned from talking to people of Christian faith.

 

?Taking up Christianity would mean adopting following ideas.

 

1. Fear of God and Satan.

2. Submit out of fear of Satan.

3. Animals have no souls.

4.Only Christians will be saved. This also could mean too bad for people who have no access to Christianity.

5. Offer no explanation why, as to some are born with silver spoon and some are born just to starve and die.

6. You only have this life time to learn to love Jesus so you could to be saved.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-18-2001).]

ggohil, Yes that is their bacic tone and so-called philosophy.At least held by the mass.I avoid them on the street as it is very hard to talk to them.

 

Without understanding aham brahmasmi no philosohy can go very deep.

 

I think we should 'save'Lord Jesus from the so-called Christians who link his good name up with these non-sense beliefs.

 

MC

 

 

[Dharma]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to keep one's non-profit staus in India, a large portion of collected donations have to go into the building of hospitals, orphanages, etc -such as Mother Theresa's missions?

 

There should be one Hindu nation left on Earth as Hinduism is the last stronghold of the ancient theme of enlightenment.

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Kairali]

Jndas has got a lot of his history wrong!

Being a Hindu from Kerala I contend many of his statements.

First of all nobody has converted a majority.

Hindus still are the majority (close to 60%)

Christianity came to Kerala before it went to

Europe.And the bulk of the initial converts were Brahmins and they had patronage from the Kerala Hindu rulers for most years.400 years ago, the portuguese started the conversion of the lower caste hindus, mostly fishing folks.Recent conversion is very very limited and the conversion is mostly from other denominations to the Pentacostal.

I really wonder what was really stopping the

lower castes from becoming Muslims because muslims never maltreated the lower castes.

The Hindu Brahmins/upper castes were Barbaric in their behavior towards the shudras.Shudras had to wear a special container always so that their spit does not 'pollute the way'. They had to maintain a

60 ft distance from a brahmin.Breaking the rule could land their heads under the elephant's foot ( Yea! Taliban is Merciful).

Brahmin's always had immunity from death sentences.The irony was that as soon as the same shudra converted to Muslim/xtian, the Brahmins had no problem in dealing with him ( as stated by Swami vivekananda).Even today one of the greatest Kerala saint/philosopher , Sree Narayana Guru is not accepted by the Hindus at large !

Reason: He belongs to the lower caste-Ezhava!

He is just held high by the lower castes.

 

Hinduism continues to torture its subjects

from the lower strata and we have no right to make fun of the christian rites or life in kerala. They are far more cohesive group within their own church groups.There is no caste or any discrimination within the same church.Each church deems itself superior to others. That is human nature.

Kairali

 

Originally posted by jndas:

I don't want to discourage the missionaries, but their conversions at really shallow. If you look at Kerala, where they have succeeded in converting the majority of the population, the Christians there are nothing more than Hindus named "Thomas". They just take Mary and Jesus, instead of Ganesh and Shiva, and build a temple for them. The worship is done according to Hindu customs. They offer deepam, incense, flower garlands, and even vibhuti! Some of them wear a vibhuti cross on their foreheads (pretty confused people). And despite the promise of being free form caste, they maintain their caste identities and only marry within their particular converted Christian caste. Once a caste always a caste I suppose.

 

Bassically these people are really confused. They certainly aren't Christians. And they really aren't Hindus eaither. But in the game of money and numbers the churches are willing to over look all of these peculiarities in order to claim success in the field.

 

I believe the pope even made some special concessions for Indian christian in regards to the practices of worship. I can't recall the exact details, it is something I read a long time ago.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-16-2001).]

 

[Guest guest]

India should decrease it's level of buraucracy, and try and catch up with China. When it achieves this, India will be an important trade power.

[Guest guest]

<<Aren't people in India aware of this?>>

some are, most not.

the indin media has to come in full control of the hindus, just as US media is in conrol of the jews.

 

<< What do they think of this?>>

those who try to become western, dont care. they are misguided. those who care hinduism, need to unite and orgainze.

 

the "rape of india" is an well orgainzed, planned, manned, and well funded effort of military operation nature.

it cannot be checked without similar hindu unity and purpose. althought hinduism is not a organized dharma, the threat demands that we organize at national and global level. in the light of it, there is no need to debate dvaita-davaita, HK's hindus or not hindus, deva worship- supreme worship, etc. UNITE against the aggresors to maintain vedic dharma in india.

 

<< This fact is not noticed by the villagers too? >>

villagers need hindu preachers and teachers

who would help keep frustrating teh missionaries' efforts in villages.

 

<<And who has done a seriously damage to Hindu traditions, Muslin-raj, British-raj or Evangelics? Or it was Hindus themselves? >>

 

all. but that does not mean niskarma or "do not awake".

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[Guest guest]

<<Do evangelists have the right to disrupt society, culture, religion, and the family of people in other countries?>>

 

They think yes, but India is not their home, nor is it home of .. it is the home and cradle of the vedic dharma and civilization. we hindus (HKs included) have the right to keep it purely vedic. no aggresive religions are /should be/ allowed there. so the answer is no.

the "secular" gov. is not needed in india because it is anti-hindu and pro-enemy. Hindu gov. is needed.

 

<< Do people have the right to combat the attack on the culture, etc. of their country? >>

 

a country, like india, has its own culture.

when a cutlrue is conducive to world peace and gives maximum possible freedom to human to realize god,

then one born in that country

needs to wisely accept that culture.

 

no one is born with a religion.

just as there is "law of the land",

there is "culture of the land".

 

if we hindus do not believe in aggresively converting others to hinduism, why should we allow others to aggresively convert hindus to non-hindu religions?

it is just a social disturbance, and violence and invasion.

 

so, the non hindus have no right in india to combat hinduism. majority rules, especially when it is conducive to world peace.

hindus do have right to combat non hindu culutres in india.

 

right is something one should never beg from any one.

it is god given, and no one can take it away.

those who do not fight for with this right

are like walking dead.

 

i really apprecaite your this post.

HK's need to know this.

 

living in "divine india", and telling "HKs are not Hindus,"

and silently allowing "rape of India" is not good for the HKs. just chanting is not enought in india.

 

Hinduism IS sanatana dharma, and sanatana dharma is not sectarian. vaishnavism is just a major branch of hinduism. UNITE. no more inter-hinduism quarrels.

 

jai sri krishna!