Objections to conversions

[jijaji]

Objections to conversions

 

An Israeli legislator, Shri Nissim Zvili, had sponsored an anti-proselytising bill. The CNN Networks (March 31, 1998, web posted at 23:23 GMT), reported that the move was dropped when ‘representatives of 50 Christian evangelical groups agreed to make an unprecedented joint statement promising not to carry out missionary activity in Israel.’ In the statement, the Christian groups say they ‘rejoice in the presence of the Jewish people in this country of their ancestors’ and agree to avoid ‘activities which.... alienate them from their tradition and community.’

 

 

In Russia, a bill entitled “On Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations” was passed. It gives official status to only the Russian Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism, and discriminates against hundreds of other faiths, including Roman Catholicism and Protestant sects. The bill clamps restrictions on many new religious groups, foreign as well as Russian, that came into existence in the mid- 1980s. (The Indian Express, June 26, 1998.)

 

 

In India, the anger against conversions is felt not only by the Hindutvavadis, but also by the whole Hindu samaj (society). A Christian activist who writes regularly on Christian issues in both communal and secular media, wrote in one of the former as follows:

 

So what is it that makes missionaries different, I wonder. I asked my Hindu husband and other Hindu friends - educated, perceptive adults - and I was shocked at the anger I uncovered. They just don’t see Christians as Indians; they see us as an alien ‘other’, minions of a white, Christian world that is synonymous with spiritual and racial chauvinism. Our cathedrals, our culture, and our worships set us apart. Poland has shown us that the dividing line between spiritual and political control can be very fine. The red flag, however, is conversion. It rakes up old hurts of a colonial religion that not only cut off a people from their rich spiritual heritage and destroyed their cultural roots, but created pseudo-western Indians that looked down on the ‘natives’ and their ‘superstitious’, ‘idol-worshipping’ religion. (Astrid Lobo Gajiwala, “Martyrdom-The call for the new millennium”, The Examiner, July 18, 1998.)

 

The Hindus that the activist talked to would perhaps not like to be identified as supporters of Hindutva. Moreover, as she says, they are “educated, perceptive adults”.

 

 

In November 1998, in Nashik the political parties of all shades organised a protest march against conversion. The Christian converts in the tribal areas refused to partake in festivities which have been the tradition of the area. This refusal is part of the programme to wean themselves from the rest of the society. It is time that Christians and their apologists give serious thought to the reaction of the Hindu samaj to conversions.

 

 

Members of all religions take a serious view of conversions. In response to the activities of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), there has been an aggressive reaction from the Christians all over the world. In many ways, the methods followed by ISKCON mimicked the way the missionaries operated. At the same time, it has to be noted that the movement flourished without any state patronage, even from the country of the birth of its founder, Swami Prabhupada. He took his message to the people in the West, and he was accepted for spiritual reasons. It was the American converts who set up the organisation of ISKCON, and they provided the funding.

 

 

The aggressive nature of the Christian reaction to ISKCON can be gauged by the following advice that was rendered to the parents of children who became attracted to the movement:

 

Parents wishing to extricate their adult offspring from the anti-Christian context’ of an organization like ISKCON can - if they’ve first exhausted all legal options, considered the risks and consulted with their pastor - perform Christian ‘civil disobedience’: disregard whatever laws (for example, kidnapping, false imprisonment, assault and battery) stand in the way, and rescue their son or daughter from the clutches of such a false, non-scriptural religion. (The Commission on Organizations: The ‘New Religions’, Brainwashing and Deprogramming, St. Louis: The Commission on Organizations, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, n.d., pp 4-5.)

 

The Christian churches in India have threatened violence against the programme of reconversions launched by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP). Rev V K Nuh, secretary of the Nagaland Baptist convention, said, “If someone tries to impose their faith, Christians in this region will not surrender. There will be a battle and we shall have no option. There will be a physical and religious war if attempts are made to propagate Hinduism by forceful means in the Northeast.” Rev M D Oaugma, head of the Garo Baptist Convention of Meghalaya said, “It could be a threat to Christianity if we remain silent to the VHP’s game plan of mass conversion. We shall have to fight, we shall have to resist.” (Maharashtra Herald, July 11, 1998.)

 

 

Some of the aggressive Protestant sects are targeting not only non-Christians but also other Christian sects. During his visit to the Dominican Republic in South America in October 1992, Pope John Paul II said that he must protect his flock from the ‘wolves’ of evangelical Protestantism wooing Latin Americans away from the Roman Catholic Church. As shepherd to Latin America’s 395 million Roman Catholics, the Pope said he must “take care of the sheep who have been put in my care and protect them from rapacious wolves.” (Houston Chronicle, October 13, 1992.) The question to be asked of the Pope is if the Protestant missionaries are wolves in South America, do they not belong to the same category in India?

 

 

Actually, there is an irony here. The Pope is unhappy not because the Roman Catholics have stopped believing in Christ, but that they are doing it in another church as Protestants and under another set of priests. If the Pope can be unhappy of such a state of affairs, surely the non-Christians have a greater right to be unhappy when their members embrace Christianity.

 

 

This unhappiness of the Roman Catholics against the activities of the Protestants exists in India as well. Shri John Stackhouse reported as follows:

 

In the tribal belt, many Protestant churches use mass rallies and faith healing to draw potential converts. And there often are promises of education and jobs. “Those Protestants - Methodists, Pentecostals - have been baptising left, right and centre,” said Bishop de Rosario (of Vadodara), who has lost many Roman Catholic villages to the new evangelical missions, which are the fastest-growing denomination in the adivasi region. “This has created some of the problem.” (Jesus Christ: Persona Non-Grata in India?, Globe and Mail (USA), Nov 5, 1998)

 

There is a clear admission by the Roman Catholics in India that the Protestants, at least, are undertaking conversions by inducements, which has no spiritual merit. These inducements are given in South America, and on a visit to Brazil the Pope expressed his unhappiness.

 

(Pope John Paul II) exhorted his followers to crusade against fundamentalist religious sects that offer what (he) called ‘false mirages’ to growing numbers of Brazilians ‘hungry for bread and justice’...... Brazil’s bishops have reportedly concluded that as many as 600,000 Brazilians leave the Roman Catholic Church each year to join fundamentalist and evangelical Protestant sects, some of which offer mass healing and fund-raising sessions that anger Roman Catholic and Protestant fundamentalists alike. (Alan Cowell, Pope urges Brazilians to resist mirages of evangelists, New York Times, Oct 14, year not known.)

 

Conversions by fraud and inducements are the standard practice all over the world. In Mongolia, Shri Alexander Berzin, a research fellow at Columbia University, New York, said in an interview,

 

The missionaries come in guise of English teachers. They give money, computers to universities, scholarships to children of influential officials. They buy their way in. (Disrupting the faith?, Newsweek, Jan 13, 1997.)

 

Apart from being concerned about Roman Catholics leaving to join the Protestant sects, the present pope, John Paul II, is most unhappy when Christians adopting another religion. In the case of Hinduism and Buddhism, he has written in his book as follows:

 

 

“(I)t is not inappropriate to caution those Christians who enthusiastically welcome certain ideas originating in the religions of the Far East - for example, techniques and methods of meditation and ascetical practice. In some quarters these have become fashionable, and are accepted rather uncritically. First one should know one’s own spiritual heritage well and consider whether it is right to set it aside lightly.” (Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Random House, 1994, pp 89-90.)

 

 

It would be appropriate to ask the Pope what moral right does he have to ask Hindus and Buddhists to set aside their own even longer spiritual heritage aside lightly and adopt Christianity. Moreover, given the fact that Christians in Christian countries are leaving the religion, it would also be appropriate to ask the Pope to explain to the others the spiritual merit of the system he is advocating. It would also be appropriate to ask the Christians why do they not concentrate on ensuring that their own flock does not desert them instead of trying to entice non-Christians.

 

 

In the West there is a great deal of disenchantment with Christianity as a spiritual guide. As per a report in a Roman Catholic weekly in India (The Examiner, July 18, 1998), out of the six million Roman Catholics in Austria, only 20% attend church regularly, and 40,000 are leaving the church every year. At this rate, by the year 2030, there will not be any Roman Catholics left in Austria. Another Christian weekly in India (India Currents, June 5-11, 1998) Rev Valson Thampu said that only 7% of the population in the United Kingdom are practising Christians.

 

 

The Sunday Times, (London, May 11, 1997) carries a report which says that by the year 2002, the number of Christians attending the Church of England services will be less than the Muslims going to mosques. Presently, only 850,000 Anglicans go to church. Out of a population of more than 50 million this is indeed a low figure.

 

 

The Times of India (July 27, 1998) carried an item with the heading “Sunday shopping hits Church visits in Europe”. One wonders if the people went to churches only because they had nothing better to do, and not because they received any spiritual sustenance by their act. The report says, “For many Poles, going to the hyper-market or shopping mall is an entertaining way to spend time with the family.”

 

 

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PEACE NOW

[Jagat]

Interesting article, but John Stackhouse, Globe& Mail (USA)??? No wonder we Canadians get frustrated!!

 

John Stackhouse was stationed in India for a couple of years during which the Globe and Mail had the best reporting on India in the western world. Now I don't know where he is. Too bad.

[Maitreya]

So many people 'converting', so few understand the nature of the soul and its eternal occupation.It can be taking to such extremes.Like here is an example of how it could be done to someone without their consent.Fanatic Muslims 'converting'some poor person and then the fanatic Hindu society would see the victim as an outcaste.Can 'religion' be more superfical than this.

 

 

“The next time I see someone performing such sankirtana, I shall certainly chastise him by not only confiscating all his property but also converting him into a Muslim.”

 

PURPORT

To convert a Hindu into a Muslim was an easy affair in those days. If a Muslim simply sprinkled water on the body of a Hindu, it was supposed that the Hindu had already become a Muslim. During the transition of the British in Bangladesh during the last Hindu-Muslim riots, many Hindus were converted into Muslims by having cows’ flesh forcibly pushed into their mouths. Hindu society was so rigid at the time of Lord Caitanya that if a Hindu were converted into a Muslim, there was no chance of his being reformed. In this way the Muslim population in India increased. None of the Muslims came from outside; social customs somehow or other forced Hindus to become Muslims, with no chance of returning to Hindu society. Emperor Aurangzeb also inaugurated a tax that Hindus had to pay because of their being Hindus. Thus all the poor Hindus of the lower class voluntarily became Muslims to avoid the tax. In this way the Muslim population in India increased. Chand Kazi threatened to convert the people into Muslims by the simple process of sprinkling water on their bodies.

Ädi 17.128

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 05-17-2001).]

[Jagat]

 

 

<h2>Political Seer mum on reconverts’ entry to Puri temple </h2>

 

Monday, June 05, 2000, Bhubaneswar.

 

Sankaracharya of Gobardhan peeth, Puri, Swami Nishcalananda Saraswati who on Friday launched his successful reconversion drive by bringing back 72 converted Christians to Hindu fold at Manharpur in Keonjhar district is still not sure whether the reconverts will be allowed to enter the Jagannath temple.The Sankaracharya was noncommittal when newsmen sought to know his reaction about the possible entry, of the Christian tribals who were reconverted to Hinduism.After a long pause, Sankaracharya said they should enjoy all the rights available to Hindus. The issue will be debated by Mukti Mandap , the highest Hindu religious seat, he said. Sankaracharya is the president of the Mukti Mandap.Asked if he will accept ;reconversion of Muslims, the Sankaracharya said doors are open for those Muslims who believe that their ancestors were Hindus but converted to Muslim by force . A large number of Hindus of India , Pakistan , Bangladesh , Sri Lanka, China and Japan have been converted to Muslims , he maintained.He alleged that the main objective of conversion of Hindus to Christianity was to divide the nation by waging a war against the Hindus through the converts.The Sankaracharya who is back in Puri said there is no specific programme for reconversion. It is a process which will continue till all the Chirstian converts are brought back to Hindu fold. He said 361 Christian tribals were reconverted to Hinduism at Chakradharpur and Ranchi in Bihar last year.

 

A team of priests from Mukti Mandap is still camping at Manoharpur . However there was not report of reconversion on the second day today.

 

 

<hr>

 

Priests at Orissa temple oppose entry of converts

 

Bhuvaneshwar (Agencies) - Priests at the famous Jagannath temple have opposed the entry of converts and reconverts to Hinduism into the place.

 

Lingaraj Mishra, secretary of the Srimandira Mukti Mandap Pandit Sabha, which groups preachers at Puri, signalled the opposition at a seminar.

 

He declared, "The lower caste people, mainly from the Pana community, who had been converted into Christianity are known as Mlechha (untouchables) and they eat the flesh of cows. We cannot allow Mlechha people to enter the lord Jagannath temple at Puri, whether they are Hindus or Christians."

 

"The temple is not open to people who eat beef because cows are worshipped in Hindu religion," he said and added, "People who are coming back to the Hindu religion may go back to any other religion again."

 

Mishra has aired his views at a time when the entry of Hindu converts to Hindu temples is already under debate. The issue came to the fore after a Hindu seer, the Puri Sankaracharya, proposed to build a special "swastik temple" for them.

 

The Shankaracharya has suggested that the converts worship in "swastik temples" dedicated to Lord Ganesha and built according to ancient Hindu scriptures.

 

Organisations like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, however, are advocating that the converts be treated like all Hindus.

 

There are special rules governing the eligibility of entry to the Srimandir, the sanctum sanctorum of the temple. Lord Jagannath can be worshipped by anybody from any religion. Those whose entry in the temple is prohibited can have the 'darsan' (glimpse of the lord) when he is taken out in a procession during the Rath

Yatra, the annual temple festival, Mishra said.

 

Temple administrator Himansu Samont Roy said that a decision on entry of converts and reconverts would have to be taken in consultation with the managing committee of the temple known as the Mukti Mandap Pandita Sabha.

 

"No such proposal is pending with the administration," he said. "If any proposal comes up in this regard, steps would be taken on the basis of the guidelines framed for the management of the temple," he said.

 

<hr>

 

Letter to editor, Monday, June 19, 2000

 

In the presence and service of: AUM SRI 108 SRI SRIMAN VENKATA-VAIKHANASA TURIYATAKA PRADHANA PRAMAN JYESTHA ACHARYA, SRIVARI SAMPRADAYIN SRI SRIMAN TIRUVENKATADASA DIKSHITULU TURIYATAKACHARYA JIYER; it is offered being supreme mercy absolute:

 

The position taken by the Puri Temple is correct.

 

There is absolutely no question in permitting cow-eaters into a temple which is being serviced classically by The Sri Vaikhanasa Sampradaya.

 

At Tirumala-Tirupati the Government has trangressed that point by allowing anyone who simply signs a register stating: "I believe in Hinduism" to enter the Temple. That is not acceptable. Only those who are born practicing sacramental Hindus, or those formally converted to hinduism with Diksha, Gotra, and devotional service designation may be admitted to a Sri Vishnu Pratistha.

 

<hr>

 

VHP OF AMERICA CONDEMNS PURI SHANKARACHARYA'S

STATEMENTS ON "RECONVERTED HINDUS"

 

The recent statements of Swami Nischalananda Saraswati, Shankaracharya of Puri, regarding the construction of special Swastika temples thereby denying equal status to our homecoming brothers and sisters (the new "reconverts" to Hinduism) are most reprehensible. Such statements have no place in a civilized society and go against the tenets and the spirit of Hindu Dharma. They can only contribute

to creating a feeling of discrimination and further divisions among an already fragmented Hindu society. Vishwa Hindu Parishad was founded to create a dynamic, vibrant and united Hindu society deeply rooted in our Vedic declarations of "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" (The entire creation is an interconnected family) and "Krunvanto Vishwamaryam" (Let us work to create a noble universe). As such, Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America expresses its strong disagreement with such regrettable statements from the spiritual head of a most influential Hindu tradition.

 

The history of Hindu culture and civilization is replete with examples of highly evolved souls who have arisen from all classes and castes of the society (caste system was based on division of labor and nature of work, not on birth) to become great spiritual masters, social reformers and leaders of their times. During a long

period of history, wrongful practices such as discrimination among different castes, untouchability, neglect of certain sections of the society etc. had crept due to cultural decadence and perhaps external influences. However, the Hindu society has always been able to find strength and courage to reform itself by making appropriate adjustments as required by the time and place without compromising any of the basic human values and principles. Let us also not forget that Hindus

have afforded equal respect to people who follow other faiths/practices, and have managed to live in harmonious and peaceful coexistence with them. Thus Puri

Shankaracharya's statements that the reconverted Hindus should enjoy a lesser status are particularly disturbing and not in conformity with the Hindu concept of the Universal Consciousness pervading through all beings, indeed the entire creation. We must open our arms completely and unconditionally to welcome these brothers and sisters of ours who were once misled or economically exploited into accepting another faith and who are now eager to return home.

 

If the statements of Swami Nishcalanandaji are incorrectly reported or missed the perspective he has on this issue, we invite him to offer suitable explanations

or clarify his position. If, on the other hand, he stands by his reported views, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America is compelled to register its serious disagreement with his views regardless of his spiritual stature in the Hindu world. We would sincerely hope that in the interest of the Hindu society, he would retract his statements. Please remember that one of the unique strengths of Hinduism is that one can challenge/disagree with even the greatest religious leader.

 

Nand K. Sharma

Vice President Public Relations

Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America

 

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

We cannot allow Mlechha people to enter the lord Jagannath temple at Puri, whether they are Hindus or Christians."

I would have to agree to some extent, especially since any entry would only be for political reasons. Anyone looking Indian can go inside the temple on their own without being noticed. No one there has the mystic ability to see they had converted and reconverted or whatever. The only way they would be barred entry would be if they all came as a group and announced it in the newspaper that, "We reconverts are going to enter the Jagannath temple." Otherwise no one would know who they were, and no one would really care either.

 

Such a move would obviously be political.

 

I know of a case of an american black who entered the Jagannatha temple without any problem. If you look indian, thats enough.

 

Some believe the baring of foreignors from entering Jagannatha mandir in Puri has nothing to do with religious affiliation. The Oriya saint, Achyutananda Das, has written many predictions about the Puri temple, one of which states Jagannatha will be stolen from the temple by foreignors, and the city of Puri will then be flooded. He also gives a calculation for the timing of the event in relation to an eagles nest on the Puri tower. Some believe this is why the Puri temple is against foreignors entering.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Guest guest]

The position taken by the Puri Temple is correct.

 

There is absolutely no question in permitting cow-eaters into a temple which is being serviced classically by The Sri Vaikhanasa Sampradaya.

 

At Tirumala-Tirupati the Government has trangressed that point by allowing anyone who simply signs a register stating: "I believe in Hinduism" to enter the Temple. That is not acceptable. Only those who are born practicing sacramental Hindus, or those formally converted to hinduism with Diksha, Gotra, and devotional service designation may be admitted to a Sri Vishnu Pratistha.

 

This statement is specially curious; 'Only those who are born practicing sacramental Hindus, or those formally converted to hinduism with Diksha, Gotra, and devotional service designation may be admitted to a Sri Vishnu Pratistha.'

 

But most of Western people who were converted into Hindu darsanas, and specially into Vaisnava-darsana by their own self decision, and also had formally accepted Hindu samskaras such as diksa, gotra and devotional service designation are not allowed into the main Hindu temple of the planet, that is Sri Jagannatha mandir.

 

There are so many examples of people who are born from Western converted Hindus, they never had eaten any beef even in dreams, and also cannot enter the mandir to have their darsana.

 

So, the criteria seems to be not this one, but only the color of the skin, since many people who had born as Hindus and now are rejecting all rules and regulations of Hindu tradition, and are even eating beef outside India, can freely enter into mandir if they aren't formally disconnected from Hinduism.

 

[shvu]

 

There is absolutely no question in permitting cow-eaters into a temple which is being serviced classically by The Sri Vaikhanasa Sampradaya.

Maybe so.

 

But the question is, how is this to be determined? The logic being followed is, if you are a foreigner, you are a cow-eater and if you are an Indian, you are not. Obviously this is a meaningless way of putting a check on cow-eaters. Beside I don't see how a cow-eater is worse than say, a chicken-eater.

 

Cheers

 

 

[sushil_kanoria]

Hare Krishna shvu,

As you said that you don't see how a cow eater is worse than a chicken eater.

So what we can do ???

Any ignorant person can say there is no difference killing a human being & killing an ant, It's same.

So you should agree for this statement also.

Actually shvu it is strictly written in the vedic scripture that killing cow or eating cow's meat is one of the henious sin, why don't you go through the vedic scripture shvu, that will help you a lot & frankly speaking 100% of your doubt will be clarified.

 

Hari Bol,

Sushil

 

 

[This message has been edited by sushil_kanoria (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Not to criticize anyone, but I have come across people who can't see a difference between eating grass and eating an animal - for them they both involve killing. To me the difference is self-evident, but not to all. The gunas may play a role in that, as probably do culture and association.

 

[shvu]

 

A matter of opinion. According to me, any animal has as much right to live as any other animal.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

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Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[Guest guest]

Actually those who don't eat beef aren't free from the sin of 'to kill' according sastra. Sruti state that even those who are following all the Vedic injunctions aren't free from that sin, as they are committing the activity of pañca-suna.

 

yajña-sistasinah santo / mucyante sarva-kilbisaih

bhuñjate te tv agham papa / ye pacanty atma-karanat

 

"Saintly persons who accept the remnants of yajña become free from sin, but those who cook grains and other foodstuffs for their own sake are sinful, and certainly partake of sin." (Gitopanisad 3.13)

 

Those who accept the grain remnants of yajñas such as vaisvadeva become free from the sins incurred due to pañca-suna. According to smrti-sastra, the five objects known to the householder as pañca-suna are: the cooking fire, the grinding instrument, the mortar and pestle, the water pot and the broom. The word suna means the place where animals are slaughtered. These five household objects are called pañca-suna because they may inflict violence upon living entities. It is only because of pañca-suna that householders do not attain Svarga and may face hell.

 

And Bharata Muni states ; vasu-sato kratu-daksau kala-kamau dhrtih kuruh - ""Violence is caused unknowingly to living entities by the householders' use of the pestle, fire, grinding instrument, water pot, and broom."

 

Those who cook food for themselves become implicated in such sins. Even if they properly perform their prescribed duties, they do not attain Svarga. Therefore, the smrti-sastras have prescribed the pañca-yajña to nullify the sins from pañca-suna: pañca-suna krtam papam pañca- yajñair vyapohati.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

[shvu]

 

Any ignorant person can say there is no difference killing a human being & killing an ant, It's same. So you should agree for this statement also.

Believe it or not, I do. I don't see a difference at all.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

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Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by shvu:

Believe it or not, I do. I don't see a difference at all.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

shvu, may I ask, are you vegetarian in your eatting?If so why?

 

MC

 

 

[shvu]

 

Yes, I am vegetarian. No particular reason, come to think of it.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[Guest guest]

MC: Shhhhhhhhh, methinks shvu=darwin.

 

<h1>;^)</h1>

[Maitreya]

shvu, Perhaps its because you know that the suffering is higher for the animals than the plants, although the plants do also contain consciousness.So we are placed in the awkward position of choosing the lesser of two wrongs.Of diets I think fruits and nuts offer the best in ahimsic choices.

 

Fortunately Krishna will accept our vegetarian offerings and we can turn the negative into a positive by learning to offer with love.

 

Material world means compromised position for the soul at every turn.

 

RandOM, I can't shhhhhh, I'm out of control. If you are refering to another topic on another thread, I agree, I wasn't thinking.No harm so far.

 

MC

[shvu]

 

Personally I see nothing wrong with being non-vegetarian, except for cholesterol and cancer. I don't remember reading anywhere that Krishna gets upset with non-vegetarians, either. Indians eat lots of yoghurt [curds], which is also high cholesterol. They eat curds and do not exercise, while the westerner eats meat and exercises, thus putting himself in a better position, healthwise.

 

It is nature's way that one form of life lives on another. It is man with his self-imposed morals, who says that killing a cow is bad, killing a chicken is not_so_bad and so on.

 

I have seen a sense of superiority that some vegetarians have. They are under the impression that they are doing something spectacular. I have also see non-vegetarians feel sympathetic towards vegetarians. They are sorry for them because vegetarians have a much restricted choice in eating. It works both ways.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

MC: Shhhhhhhhh, methinks shvu=darwin.

 

<h1>;^)</h1>

Oh now I get it.yeah maybe, jijaji possibly too, that wilely one. But it's okay, I just respond as they present.

 

 

[Guest guest]

It's better for some defenders on the thesis of Sri Krsna's exclusive vegetarianism to read Mahabharata and check by themselves how many non-veg fests Sri Krsna has done with Arjuna after some hunts.

 

When acaryas teach on vegetarianism and ahimsa they are also instructing that the main object of these practices is to control the senses and the mind, otherwise the aim of yoga cannot be attained. To follow a veg disciplene without any superior aim is mere stupidity.

 

Non-veg meals are considered very heavy, indigestible and tasteful and not suitable to those who want to control their senses. They also convey countless impressions on other living entities samskaras, in a greater scale than grains and other vegetal. But even Manu-smrti considers some aspects that enhances some benefic characteristics of non.veg diet, specially to ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu also did not have prohibit Kazi Misra and his descents to eat food according their non-veg habits. Even nowadays they are considered vaisnavas in spite of their condition of non-veg. There are other examples in Vaisnava's books of exalted personalities that never were strictly vegetarians such as Vamsidasa Babaji, and Gaudiya-vaisnavas' very old paribars where to eat fish is allowed. Even the brahmanins who are servants of Sri Jagannatha in Puri are allowed to eat fish and eggs when they aren't serving in the altar.

 

One should never mistaken sadacara (elementary discipline given by guru) with universal precepts. Sadacara may differ according time, place and circumstances.

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Oh now I get it.yeah maybe, jijaji possibly too, that wilely one. But it's okay, I just respond as they present.

 

 

sorry darwin does not know advaita like shvu (not even close) and neither do I....

 

 

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PEACE NOW

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

There are other examples in Vaisnava's books of exalted personalities that never were strictly vegetarians such as Vamsidasa Babaji..

...who would curse Krishna and throw him in the ganga for not removing his attraction to fish!

 

...and Gaudiya-vaisnavas' very old paribars where to eat fish is allowed.

Where is Sri Chaitanya's instruction to them to eat fish found?

 

 

Even the brahmanins who are servants of Sri Jagannatha in Puri are allowed to eat fish and eggs when they aren't serving in the altar.

Not that they are "allowed", but that some do. Nearly all brahmins in Orissa eat fish. I would suggest it is more a sign of Kali yuga than of some transcendental exception.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

[Dharma]

Definately one effect of Christian conversion will be more McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises in India. I am amazed how many Hindu own Taco Bells, Subways, various delis and KFC's here. It is kind of humorous to me how the cultures merge in this day and age.

 

Once while in rural India I saw a Tee Shirt that said, "THE POPE MUST BE STOPPED." There was a big picture of his Holiness on it.

 

Not so very interesting or surprising considering the circumstances. But what was interesting was that "THE POPE MUST BE STOPPED" Tee Shirt was the focal point of a beautiful and well tended little alter surrounded by garlands, with a little oil lamp and some fruit.

 

Is it really possible to convert a Hindu? I wonder.

 

 

[Maitreya]

Those corp. entities that Dharma mentioned should be torched and driven from the borders of India.Western 'culture' in general is the real danger.Meat and porno video's will take it down, not the Catholics.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Some people did break some KFC's in Bangalore a few years back. But I never heard of anything after that.

[shvu]

Originally posted by jndas:

Some people did break some KFC's in Bangalore a few years back. But I never heard of anything after that.

There is a KFC on Brigade Road. McDonalds could not enter Bangalore because a local businessman had the same logo as that of mcd. He slapped a lawsuit and it was voted in his favor. There is a Pizza hut in Bangalore. Bombay has Dominos pizza.

 

Today in Bangalore, we have Levis, Nike, Reebok and many other foreign collaborations. Just 10 years back, when we were teenagers we had to goto a smuggler on commercial street to buy reeboks. He would take us into a closed room, where he had all the smuggled goods lined up. Things changed quite lot in the 90s.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-19-2001).]