Objections to conversions

[ggohil]

Hi Shvu:

 

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Personally I see nothing wrong with being non-vegetarian, except for cholesterol and

cancer.

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In your opinion is killing of an animal same as chopping a carrot?

 

And slaughter houses as same as chopping vegetable places?

 

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Confucius says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

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Dirtier the water, filthier the hand

 

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[ggohil]

Hare Krsna

 

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[ggohil]

Hi

[shvu]

In your opinion is killing of an animal same as chopping a carrot?

Yes. The carrot is alive until it is pulled out of the ground and chopped up after which it dies. The Vegetarian with a superiority complex does not like to admit such facts, but irrespective of whether he likes it or not, the fact remains that plants have life too. We kill plants and eat them so that we can stay alive.

 

Dirtier the water, filthier the hand.

And also cleaner the water, cleaner the hand. Different ways of looking at the same thing. In fact, mine is a cleaner way.

 

Note: I am not encouraging people to eat animals. In fact, I discourage people from eating animals for health reasons.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-19-2001).]

[ggohil]

It is interesting to note that, if meat eating people see nothing wrong in killing animals, then why do they not see an airing of a documentary on plucking apples to make making an apple pie in the same light as slaughtering of the animals for making of a meat pie.

 

Or

 

Sending children to the slaughter house as field trip.

 

Or

 

Or opening a Slaughter house next a school or a church.

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-19-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-19-2001).]

[ggohil]

Hi Shvu:

 

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Yes. The carrot is alive until it is pulled out of the ground and chopped up after which it dies. The Vegetarian with a superiority complex does not like to admit such facts, but irrespective of whether he likes it or not, the fact remains that plants have life too. We kill plants and eat them so that we can stay alive.

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I think all Vegitarians know that plants are living entity. The only difference is that they they see a difference between killing an animal and killing a vegitable.

 

As far as I know, I do not think vegiterians have superior complex about this, they just have a major difference in opinion.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Maitreya]

shvu,

 

Clothes are one thing, needless slaughter is another.Make the Reeboks and nike shoes from the hides of cows that died a natural death.

 

If carrots and cows lifes are the same then why not humans also?How far are you willing to carry your its all the same, no distinction policy?

 

Humans must dicriminate in their actions towards a more refined and harmless life to others, as much as possible.

 

Hare Krishna

McHimsa

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think Shvu would be happy to see a human slaughterhouse open up as a solution to the lack of food throughout the world. After all, there is no difference between cutting a carrot and killing a human - except for health considerations.

 

Many people like to talk like this, but in reality none of them actually believe it; they just like to sound different. It is called a "muni", or one whose opinion is absolutely unique simply for the sake of having a different view. And since their opinions must be unique, they will each add their own sub-twists to make sure there is no identical opinion.

 

[shvu]

 

I think Shvu would be happy to see a human slaughterhouse open up as a solution to the lack of food throughout the world. After all, there is no difference between cutting a carrot and killing a human - except for health considerations.

If that will solve the problem of starvation, then sure. A starving person will eat anything. One sitting in an a/c room with a full belly and posting on the internet may say, "Even if I am starving, I will not eat meat". This is empty talk from someone who has never experienced starvation.

 

There is a saying in tamil, "pasi vandaal pathum parandu pogum" . It means, "When hunger comes, all morals and ethics will go flying away". There are some historical examples for this too.

 

Many people like to talk like this, but in reality none of them actually believe it; they just like to sound different.

Although I cannot speak for those many people, I can certainly speak for myself. On the other hand some people are very careful about not deviating from public opinion, just to belong to the majority, although they may not actually think so. I would rather belong to the former type than the latter.

 

Like I said before, some vegetarians cannot accept non-vegetarianism as a way of life. They raise a big hue and cry about it. Especially the neophyte hindus who have not read about animal sacrifices in the Vedas, where even cows used to be sacrificed along with other animals. A sour grapes attitude, perhaps. And I am amidst another controvery again.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Confucius says a man who has both feet firmly on the ground will have trouble putting on pants.

[shvu]

 

Humans must dicriminate in their actions towards a more refined and harmless life to others, as much as possible.

That is how things are. Someone who feels that animals should not be slaughtered, will not do it. He who is slaughtering animals does not think that he is doing wrong. The butcher is also aware of all the finer points of life. If it does not spark the same reaction in him as it does in me, how is that a shortcoming?

 

It takes all kinds of people to make up the world. "Anyone who does not think the way we do, is wrong" is a wrong attitude in my opinion. Yesterday someone was of the opinion that anyone who denies the divinity of Chaitanya is arrogant and materialistic. The majority of the worlds population will not accept Chaitanya as divine. So in his eyes, everyone who is a non-Gaudiya is materialistic and arrogant.

 

This is exactly the kind of thinking that I am against. Anyway, this is my last posting on the vegetarianism topic.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Confucius says a man who has both feet firmly on the ground will have trouble putting on pants.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

If that will solve the problem of starvation, then sure.

What would be your suggestion for the process that should be used to choose the humans to be eaten? Would you eat the old people, or maybe the fat people? Or should it be based on race or religion? Or maybe just a free for all, where anyone eats anyone. I am sure many people would be interested in your conclusions on this matter.

 

Some people fail to realize how atheism can solve many practical problems of the world, such as starvation and over population. If we stop growing vegetables, and instead eat the excess humans (who are also by-products of dead matter - just like carrots), we can put an end to world hunger, and keep the population in check.

[shvu]

 

oops ! I had missed out the human part. I meant animal slaughter house. Sorry for the mistake. A lot of devotees would have been horrified to read that.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

There is a very interesting event related to missionaries and diet preferences. In Brazil, when Portuguese arrived up here, the natives were all human eaters. They spent most of their lives running after other tribes, making some prisoners and eating them in a fest. The opposite party use to do the same, for certain, and they had no problems with over-population at that time. Neither they have anything to complain on the taste of their meal.

 

Missionaries were encouraged by the King to change these alimentary habits of his new subjects, but they could not do it easily. So, Pope just declared that these cannibals had no soul, and they could be free prey for slavery, and other works of charity. Groups of extermination were formed under the blesses of the priests, and soon the problem was resolved. No more cannibals in the whole country. They were all transferred to heaven.

 

[shvu]

 

Eating one's own kind is not a common thing in nature. I remember a Charlie Chaplin movie, where CC and another guy are trapped in a cabin due to heavy snow. After starving for sometine, they cook their shoes and eat them up. After a while they begin to eye each other thoughtfully. The other guy appears like a fat turkey to CC. It was hilarious. I don't remember what happens later.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Gauracandra]

What is interesting is how karma tells us what not to do. For instance, when any animal eats its own kind, it develops its own form of "mad cow disease". I was watching a program on this. Mad Cow disease came about because farmers were feeding dead cows to living cows. The disease is so strong that even if you feed a dead cow to a pig, and then feed that dead pig to a cow, it can still be transferred. Then they showed how a similar disease affects the few cannabalistic societies in the world. They get the same symptoms. So obviously if we look at the reactions to an action (karma) we can tell that cannabalism is not the way to go.

 

Gauracandra

[atma]

Actually I agree that when you're starving the choices are limited. This reminds me a true story: in the 70's a group of Uruguayans rugby players flew to Chile to play against their counterparts in Santiago. They flew in a small airplane with family members because they wanted to do Cristhmas shopping in addition to sport. The plane crashed in the Andes Mountains in between Chile and Argentina. Many of the people died but there were survivors. The rescue teams couldn't find them and they gave up because they knew that nobody could survive in that environment. Two months later, in February, a shepperd saw this 2 extrange looking men in the other side of the river. Somehow they got in contact and he called the police and the story came out that were around 14 (I don't remember exact details) survivors of that crush. For over 2 months they ate the flesh of the dead people. Because it was cold, the meat didn't descompose. They had a system to get the most nutritious parts of the body. To not get so emotionally disturbed (remember, mothers, sisters, friends were the dead) when they were cutting the meat, they covered the faces and most of the body and they didn't know whose flesh they were eating.

They went through lots of trauma afterwards because they were Roman Catholics and they had the conviction that in the day of Resurrection the same bodies would arise from the dead for the Final Judgement.

When you're starving the instinct of conservation prevails!

What about people that know we're not this body? Would you do it?

Is a movie about this, it's called: "Alive."

[Guest guest]

What is interesting is how karma tells us what not to do.

 

But one should notice that the karma itself is controlled by Bhagavan. Some smrti texts narrates how Yamaraja organize the karma and provides epidemic diseases such as typhoid, cholera, and so on in his capital. He has there big buildings, scientists, and a lot of paraphernalia to make new virus, bacteria, cancer, etc.

 

The kuru is a kind of encephalitis that is endemic in New Guinea and Papua, as well in some Polynesian islands were the cannibalism is also endemic and part of some tribal rituals. It is a virus disease and the virus was recognized more than 30 years ago. The virus is only transferred by the human meat.

 

The mad cow disease is a similar illness, and it seems that the virus is even worst than the kuru's. It may be transferred by the meat of pigs, sheep, goats and chicken feed with rations made with bones, meat and viscera of cows. Scientists are waiting for a human epidemic of 'mad cow' all over the world, cause by any kind of meat.

 

Meat is dangerous. Actually the word itself is warning 'me eat' you. In Sanskrit, mamsah = me + he; I will be you next life!

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

Mad Cow Disease is unlike any other disease on the planet. It is not a virus, it is not bacteria. It is PRIONS, a non-living PROTEIN that has genetic material. It is already in humans, a couple folks in Colorado died from it. I think they ate venison. It is also called BSE.

[amanpeter]

The external energy forces us to surrender to the internal potency. As Krsna surrenders to Radha, so must we.

 

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Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

[Dharma]

The eating of meat was originally not considered to be so much of a "sin" as an ignorance. Avoidance of meat was for spiritual development. Alot of the foundation of Hindu tradition was from the Laws of Manu" here is a passage on food:

"Do not give the messed leavings of food to any. Do not eat between the fixed and set meal times (eating between 10:00am and 2:00pm was considered ideal during that time). Do not eat while the last meal is undigested. Do not go anywhere without ablution after a meal. Anxiously avoid overeating, for it wars against health, against functioning of the higher mind, and therefore against the hope of heaven and the way of the virtuous; it breeds gross passions, and is against the rules of what is the seemly and equitable division of food amongst all who inhabit the world.

 

As far as possible take clen and bloodless foods. It is true that the mental inclination of the world on the path of persuit is in the direction of flesh-foods and spiritous drinks, and physical loves and lusts; and it may be said that there is not sin in these, especially in regulated forms and for the Kshatriya (Buddha's caste)and Shudra. But refraining from them brings high result. Flesh cannot be had without the slaughter of animals, and the slaughter of breathing beings does not lead to heaven. There fore flesh foods should be avoided. The man who has no will to bind, torture and slay innocent living beings, who wishes well to all, shall be blessed with enduring joy. And he who slays none shall achieve what he thinks, what he plans, what he desires, sucessfully and without pain."

 

It is interesting how pigging out is considered to be just as if not more detrimental than eating meat.

 

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[ggohil]

Originally posted by shvu:

A starving person will eat anything. One sitting in an a/c room with a full belly and posting on the internet may say, "Even if I am starving, I will not eat meat". This is empty talk from someone who has never experienced starvation.

 

Ok, point taken.

 

However, the above statement is a weak argument, since majority of the people are not facing starvation.

 

 

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[This message has been edited by ggohil (edited 05-21-2001).]

 

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[Gauracandra]

Mad Cow Disease is unlike any other disease on the planet. It is not a virus, it is not bacteria. It is PRIONS, a non-living PROTEIN that has genetic material. It is already in humans, a couple folks in Colorado died from it. I think they ate venison. It is also called BSE.

Hey Random,

 

Perhaps you could shed some light on this topic of Mad Cow disease in the World Review section. Do you have any articles? I've read a bit about it, though not a lot. As I understand it, these prions are virtually indestructible. If you burn the cow, you will still find them in the dead body, if you feed a dead cow to a pig, and then feed the pig to a cow, the prions will activate and create mad cow disease. From what I've read they are virtually indestructable. If you have more info on these prions I'd be interested.

 

Gauracandra

[Maitreya]

atma here is something on that story of plane crash in the Andes, that you wrote of.-------------

 

Prabhupäda: Very good idea. Therefore I said Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Krsna says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, “poor feeding.” To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone—paëòitäù sama-darçinaù [bg. 5.18]. Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals’ throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national?

 

Pusta-krsna: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant but that does not mean you kill them.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Is there any meaning, “Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them”? What is this?

 

Yogesvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, “Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?” But every day they are eating...

 

Prabhupäda: Cow’s flesh. When it was?

 

Yogesvara: This was about... Now it is almost a month ago, one month ago.

 

Prabhupäda: Where it was?

 

Yogesvara: In the Andes mountains?

 

Pusta-krsna: High in the mountains.

Prabhupäda: Huh?

 

Yogesvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed.

 

Nitäi: South America.

 

Yogesvara: Is it South...

 

Nitäi: Andes, yes.

 

Yogesvara: I think so. I’m not sure. I don’t know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles. “What was it like?” Everyone wants to know, “What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?” “No.”

 

Guru Gauränga: Who’s left a copy of Bhagavad-gétä here?

 

Pusta-ksnaa: Who’s left this copy? That’s

his, this young boy.

 

Yogesvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything.

Pusta-krsna: One thing on that report. I read that there were certain people...

 

Prabhupäda: There was no vegetable?

 

Yogesvara: No, it was way up in the mountains.

 

Pusta-krsna: Icy, cold.

 

Yogesvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere.

 

Pusta-krsna: And the bodies were already

dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It’s true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, “If we’re going to eat the bodies, then we’ll eat them the last.” So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that.

 

Prabhupäda: No, in last war they ate stool also.

Yogesvara: Concentration camps.

 

Pusta-krsna: Really? What is the Vaisnava point of view?

Prabhupäda: What is that?

 

Pusta-krsna: Is a Vaisnava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Krsna even if he has to break regulative principles—if it is necessary?

 

Prabhupäda: If it is necessary.

 

Yogesvara: What’s the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years?

 

Nitäi: Saubhari? Viçvämitra.

 

Prabhupäda: Välméki.

Yogeçvara: No.

Nitäi: Viçvämitra?

Prabhupäda: Viçvämitra.

Yogeçvara: He also had to eat dog, I think.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Yogeçvara: There’s a story about that.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, Viçvämitra. How they exist in that open, and there was snow. For eating they... Eighteen days?

 

Yogesvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on blankets and their coats. But there was no... They could not go outside. There was no food.

 

Pusta-krsna: They had... At first they had little chocolate and they rationed it out that “You get a little bit of chocolate,” and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves. “Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?” So they voted amongst themselves that “Yes, we should do this.” There were some men, one or two, that would not do it and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did.

 

Yogesvara: They made some... Afterwards they had to... There was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that “We must eat this flesh to stay alive but it’s not so wrong since the soul has left the body.” He said, “The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn’t consider it to be quite so bad. We’re obliged to do this.”

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise dead body’s flesh is as good as anything else because it is matter.