Sri Caitanya's Divinity

[Guest guest]

Some are arguing that most of the sastric evidences on Sri Caitanya avatata are dubious, and can be interpreted in other sense.

 

But the opposite party never comment the personal witness of His divine character by His associates, followers, ordinary people and even adversaries.

 

We state that in Kali yuga, Sri Krsna is manifested in His form as Mahaprabhu. He tastes his own unatta-ujjvala rasa. He revealed His rasa raja mahabhava form to Raya Ramananda in Godavari. He showed His sad-bhuja, six armed, form to Sarvabhauma Bhathacarya. And many other people saw Mahaprabhu exhibit the forms of many different avataras.

 

Many sages, Gaudiya Vaisnavas, they have experienced, realized, Sri Caitanya's divinity and have told everything.

 

If some people are arguing; "But, I don't accept them." We can say; "But who will accept you?" Our necessity is to understand all sastras, guru, and vaisnavas. What they are saying we accept, in this line.

 

Any comment on this thesis?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[premananda]

"If some people are arguing; "But, I don't accept them." We can say; "But who will accept you?" Our necessity is to understand all sastras, guru, and vaisnavas. What they are saying we accept, in this line.

 

Any comment on this thesis?"

 

Jaya Radhe!

 

Because we have sraddha in sadhu, guru and sastra we can see that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the original Godhead.

 

Human beings naturally perceive things in an imperfect way. But sadhu, guru and sastra give the most essential of all knowledge, spiritual knowledge, which has its origin in Sri Krishna.

 

Therefore I don´t care what materialistic or arrogant persons say about the divinity of Sri Gauranga.

 

What persons who disregard or ignore Sri Gauranga also lack is the ability to perceive the spiritual nature of His lilas. Persons like that don´t have a higher goal in life, they simply dive into material life, and in the end become very unhappy and suffer.

What a waste of time to simply try to satisfy one´s senses. We may die any moment, who really knows?

 

The beauty of Sri Gauranga even dissipates the desire to escape material life and attain moksha. Liberation becomes totally insignificant.

Sri Sri Radha-Krishna´s names, forms, qualities and pastimes drowns the devotee in pure nectar. There is no other choice except to surrender oneself to that amazing world, where Sri Sri Radha-Krishna are in the centre.

 

P D

[shvu]

 

Some are arguing that most of the sastric evidences on Sri Caitanya avatata are dubious, and can be interpreted in other sense.

 

Most of them do not exist. Whatever exists can in no way be interpreted in that sense. Providing an alternate translation is not enough. It has to fit into the context as well. But why go so far? The same article that lists out all the verses finally says that all this evidence was not existent before the 16th century. That says it all.

 

But the opposite party never comment the personal witness of His divine character by His associates, followers, ordinary people and even adversaries.

This is a whole new angle and has nothing to do with srciptural evidence. Shirdi Sai Baba's devotees saw him take on the form of Krishna, according to his biography. Basically people see their Gurus as avatars. Given the record of hagiography in India, such stories are simply stories.

 

We state that in Kali yuga, Sri Krsna is manifested in His form as Mahaprabhu.

Sure, one can state anything he wants. It is a free world.

 

If some people are arguing; "But, I don't accept them." We can say; "But who will accept you?"

 

Makes no difference. The important point is that there is no scriptural evidence to show his divinity and that is enough for anyone to see that this claim is bogus.

 

Any comment on this thesis?

Lots, as posted above.

 

Cheers

 

 

------------------

Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[shvu]

 

Because we have sraddha in sadhu, guru and sastra we can see that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the original Godhead.

I would change that to, "Because we did not bother to verify the evidence, we see that Sri Chaitanyaa is the original godhead".

 

Human beings naturally perceive things in an imperfect way. But sadhu, guru and sastra give the most essential of all knowledge, spiritual knowledge, which has its origin in Sri Krishna.

Who btw, are also human beings.

 

Therefore I don´t care what materialistic or arrogant persons say about the divinity of Sri Gauranga.

Sure, if anyone does not to our beliefs, then that person is arrogant. Profound logic.

 

What persons who disregard or ignore Sri Gauranga also lack is the ability to perceive the spiritual nature of His lilas. Persons like that don´t have a higher goal in life, they simply dive into material life, and in the end become very unhappy and suffer.

Bill Gates although an atheist went to the level of the richest man in the world. Although I myself am an athiest, I am very happy. On the other hand I see 'devotees' bitching against each other here. How are they better than any 'materialistic' people?

 

What a waste of time to simply try to satisfy one´s senses. We may die any moment, who re]ally knows?

Exactly. That is why every moment is precious in life and one should focus on having a good time. One does not need God for that.

 

The beauty of Sri Gauranga even dissipates the desire to escape material life and attain moksha. Liberation becomes totally insignificant.

With due respect, that is because the concept of Liberation has been misunderstood. Which in turn is because no Vedic literature is studied by the Gaudiyas.

 

Sri Sri Radha-Krishna´s names, forms, qualities and pastimes drowns the devotee in pure nectar. There is no other choice except to surrender oneself to that amazing world, where Sri Sri Radha-Krishna are in the centre.

If that is what one wishes to do.

 

Cheers

 

[premananda]

Originally posted by shvu:

If that is what one wishes to do.

 

Cheers

As I said, I don´t care what materialistic persons like yourself think about Sri Gauranga.

 

P D

 

 

[shvu]

 

As I said, I don´t care what materialistic persons like yourself think about Sri Gauranga.

I notice that you did not use the word arrogant this time. That is a step in the right direction.

 

According to you spiritual = accepting chaitanya as divine. You see, there are several other people who are spiritual, but do not accept Chaitanya as divine. Someday hopefully, you wil realize that and also drop the word materialistic. The exact english words for that would be tolerance and humility. You will eventually get around to that. Good luck.

 

Cheers

 

[premananda]

Originally posted by shvu:

I notice that you did not use the word arrogant this time. That is a step in the right direction.

 

According to you spiritual = accepting chaitanya as divine. You see, there are several other people who are spiritual, but do not accept Chaitanya as divine. Someday hopefully, you wil realize that and also drop the word materialistic. The exact english words for that would be tolerance and humility. You will eventually get around to that. Good luck.

 

Cheers

Why don´t you just disappear from this forum? Your opinion is totally useless.

I thought this was a forum for spiritually minded persons! Isn´t there some atheist/agnostic forum where you will fit in nicely?

 

P D

 

 

[shvu]

 

Why don´t you just disappear from this forum? Your opinion is totally useless.

There, the humble devotee goes off into a fit of anger once more !

 

I don't disucss atheism on this forum. If the administrator felt so, he would have cut me off, ages back. Simple?

 

You must learn the meaning of your name and try to live up to it. Donning the garb of a devotee and being empty and angry inside, doesn't cut it. I call that as hypocrisy. In my usless opinion, you are no better than me. You have a far, far way to go. In fact, by such an attitude, you are only blackening the image of Chaitanya and other devotees.

 

Cheers

 

[premananda]

Originally posted by shvu:

There, the humble devotee goes off into a fit of anger once more !

 

I don't disucss atheism on this forum. If the administrator felt so, he would have cut me off, ages back. Simple?

 

You must learn the meaning of your name and try to live up to it. Donning the garb of a devotee and being empty and angry inside, doesn't cut it. I call that as hypocrisy. In my usless opinion, you are no better than me. You have a far, far way to go. In fact, by such an attitude, you are only blackening the image of Chaitanya and other devotees.

 

Cheers

You cannot possibly know if I was angry when I wrote the previous posting. By the way, I wasn´t.

 

P D

 

 

[jijaji]

shvu..

 

I am sorry to say , but I have noticed somewhat of a double standard here. You are constantly BLASTING Gaudiya Vaishnavism as you consider it to be unauthentic and without foundation. Rather your postings generally support advaita..no problem to me. But you seem to be upset with those of us who have serious issues of Siddhanta with Gaudiya Math and it's branches. It does not suprise me in the least that other schools of Vedanta disagree with each other. It does not bother me that Tattvavadis are not acceptant of Sri Chaitanyas divinity. It does not bother me that followers of Goraknath do not accept Sri Chaitanyas divinity. But keep in mind that certainly Ramakrisha did.....as did many many others!

So you can argue until the cows come home...and call of us names who disagree with the Siddhanta being presented by these missionaries. BUT....you are doing the very same thing, walking around on the forums like YOU RULE..give me a break.

IS YOUR WORD FINAL HERE OR SOMETHING?

EXCUSE ME DUDE!

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!

 

 

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PEACE NOW

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-19-2001).]

[premananda]

Originally posted by jijaji:

shvu..

 

I am sorry to say , but I have noticed somewhat of a double standard here. You are constantly BLASTING Gaudiya Vaishnavism as you consider it to be unauthentic and without foundation. Rather your postings generally support advaita..no problem to me. But you seem to be upset with those of us who have serious issues of Siddhanta with Gaudiya Math and it's branches. It does not suprise me in the least that other schools of Vedanta disagree with each other. It does not bother me that Tattvavadis are not acceptant of Sri Chaitanyas divinity. It does not bother me that followers of Goraknath do not accept Sri Chaitanyas divinity. But keep in mind that certainly Ramakrisha did.....as did many many others!

So you can argue until the cows come home...and call of us names who disagree with the Siddhanta being presented by these missionaries. BUT....you are doing the very same thing, walking around on the forums like YOU RULE..give me a break.

IS YOUR WORD FINAL HERE OR SOMETHING?

EXCUSE ME DUDE!

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE!

 

 

 

Well written Sriman Jijaji, you figured this guy out!

 

P D

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by premananda:

Why don´t you just disappear from this forum? Your opinion is totally useless.

I thought this was a forum for spiritually minded persons! Isn´t there some atheist/agnostic forum where you will fit in nicely?

I don't agree with him, but he has a right to discuss and doubt Sri Chaitanya's divinity. Personally I think this point has been dealt with sufficiently in the past, and he is just repeating the same arguments over and over without reading the responses he got; but he's free to do that.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-19-2001).]

[amanpeter]

TESTING TESTING...TESTING TOLERANCE...TESTING TESTING...

[shvu]

 

So you can argue until the cows come home...and call of us names who disagree with the Siddhanta being presented by these missionaries. BUT....you are doing the very same thing, walking around on the forums like YOU RULE..give me a break

1. Till date I haven't indulged in name calling.

 

2. I never promoted Advaita here or anywhere else. There was a false, derogatory version of Advaita here and so I stepped in to show that it is nothing like that, period.

 

3. I have no issues with Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Disagreeing with Chaitanya's divinity and Madhva connection does not mean anything. Neither do I agree with Shankara or Madhva being Avatars. For the record, I do not attest any of their philosophies either. There is bound to be more discussion on this forum about GVs because the bulk of the population here are GVs.

 

3. I would not even have bothered to respond to PD, if he had not called everyone else as materialistic and arrogant. if you think like him too, then you are welcome to it.

 

Any more issues, dude?

 

I believe such a reaction comes up, when peple are at a loss of arguments. Just a sign of you_know_what.

 

But keep in mind that certainly Ramakrisha did.....

Based on what, may I ask? Also keep in mind that the bulk of India's population have never heard this story of Chaitanya's divinity. It was circulated only among the Gaudiyas for long. It is only in the last century that this came to the notice of other scholars who had never heard of such a thing. The Gaudiyas presented the list. Most of the evidence was non-existent. When questioned, the GVs said they were all lost. The scholars then asked why Madhva et al., who lived before Chaitanya did not notice this. The GVs said, they were all hidden until the 16th century. So basically the evidence was non-existent before the 16th century, briefly came up by magic after Chaitanya, giving enough time for a GV to jot it down in a list and then vanished again. If one is willing to believe in such a story, then Chaitanya is certainly divine.

 

Cheers

 

------------------

Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-19-2001).]

[shvu]

 

...he is just repeating the same arguments over and over without reading the responses he got; but he's free to do that.

Au contraire, this is after reading everything here and in a few other places too. I am clear about my position. No one has to take my word for it. They just have to get hold of the list and verify things for themselves.

 

Cheers

 

 

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Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

[shvu]

 

It's stated that Gaudiya-vaisnavas were an inexpressive group in Vaisnavism before the advent of Iskcon. Can some one give some info on this aspect, based in some statistics?

Pretty much. Even today, the bulk of South India have no idea what Gaudiya Vaishnavism is. Everyone has heard of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, but not as an avatar of Krishna. He is another saint, in a long list of Indian saints.

 

In my own case, when I first read somewhere that he was an avatar of Krishna, I was surprised. I thought it was the belief of his followers. Then I came across the list and initially thought it was true. Then I met someone who told me that most of that list was bogus. I then verified it myself and saw that it was true. For ex, there is a verse quoted from the Krishna Upanishad. Nowhere in the KU, is this verse to be found. When questioned the Gvs said, it was from the second chapter. There is no second chapter in the KU ! Then they said, it was lost. To top it all, the list itself say this evidence popped up 400 years back. That should be enough.

 

This was less than a couple of years back. Until then I had never heard the story of Chaitanya's divinity. This topic has become public because of Iskcon's popularity. Otherwise it would have still been circulated only among GVs, where naturally people will take the word of their Acharyas, and do not verify sources. That is to be expected in every group.

 

The tattva-vadis themselves were not aware of this claim for long. The tradition of polemics died down in India about 200 years back. So there was no question of anyone challenging the other on any claim, and thus it has come to pass. Today, philosophies are more public because of books and the internet and so people are getting to know things better.

 

Anyway, to the believer no evidence is required.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

You are constantly BLASTING Gaudiya Vaishnavism as you consider it to be unauthentic and without foundation.

Not true.

 

I was saying that since the philosophy is new and based on Chaitanya's teachings, why bother to connect it to Madhva? Especially since Madhva's teachings are not being followed here. And why do it 200 years later? That was the point.

 

FYI, a sampradaya can start from person x and go on from there. It is perfectly authentic. Someone has misled people into thinking that a sampradaya has to start all the way from Brahma [sic] to be considered authentic. Get your facts straight.

 

So in conclusion, I never said that the GV sampradaya is not authentic. Au contraire, people belonging to the GV Sampradaya themselves, are claiming that some other GVs are not authentic.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It was circulated only among the Gaudiyas for long.

This is not a very intelligent statement. As one might expect, the divinity of Sri Chaitanya was written in the books of His followers. I wouldn't expect others to write it in their books! These books were not hidden and accessable only to Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Those who were interested to read this school's writings were aware of this point. Others who chose not to study this school's writings were not aware of this point. It has absolutely nothing to do with it "only being distributed among the Gaudiyas".

 

It is only in the last century that this came to the notice of other scholars who had never heard of such a thing.

The writtings of Jiva Goswami have been studied by countless scholars throuhgout India for hundreds of years. It would be more correct to say that in this century the teachings of the Gaudiya Viashnavas have come to the notice of common people; those who were scholars had studied other schools of philosophy, and Jiva Goswamis writings were and are quite famous in scholarly circles.

 

The Gaudiyas presented the list. Most of the evidence was non-existent.

I disagree.

 

When questioned, the GVs said they were all lost.

Who was questioned and when did this occur? You seem to be manufacturing history from your mind. Please cite evidence for this.

 

The scholars then asked why Madhva et al., who lived before Chaitanya did not notice this.

Which scholars were asked and by whom?

 

The GVs said, they were all hidden until the 16th century.

Again please cite your source on this, with a relevant quote.

 

[shvu]

This is not a very intelligent statement. As one might expect, the divinity of Sri Chaitanya was written in the books of His followers. I wouldn't expect others to write it in their books! These books were not hidden and accessable only to Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

I did not say that it was kept a secret. What I am saying is in those days, literature was usually studied only by the respective tradition and others would not have easy access. No one was publishing books and in my opinion, were much less interested in the GV literature as it was not a prominent group yet. All this has changed only in the last 100+ years.

 

The Gaudiyas presented the list. Most of the evidence was non-existent.

 

I disagree.

 

Read the page on Gosai.com where the list is presented. The Gaudiyas themselves do not deny this when the tattva-vadis pose this question. I can get the exact URL, if required. Better still, you should verify the list yourself.

 

Who was questioned and when did this occur? You seem to be manufacturing history from your mind. Please cite evidence for this.

The same url as mentioned above. You in turn cannot decide I am fabricating stuff, until you have verified my source.

 

The GVs said, they were all hidden until the 16th century.

 

Again please cite your source on this, with a relevant quote.

Refer to the list that you yourself posted a while back. Towards the end, the list gets defensive and says that Chaitanya was a hidden avatar. it says all these references were 'buried deep' and hidden prior to his arrival. Naturally, because otherwise people will raise the question of why Madhva was clear that the next incarnation would be Kalki.

 

Cheers

 

------------------

Confucious says if you touch water, your hand will get wet.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

No one was publishing books and in my opinion, were much less interested in the GV literature as it was not a prominent group yet.

Yet the entire Bengal, Orissa and Manipur were converted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism; not to mention parts of North India such as Jaipur, Vrindavan, etc.

 

[shvu]

 

Yet the entire Bengal, Orissa and Manipur were converted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism; not to mention parts of North India such as Jaipur, Vrindavan, etc

This is still regional. Besides I would not say entire Bengal. Ramakrishna, etc were also Bengalis, but not GVs.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Hi Jijaji and all,

 

I am only stating my comments here as asked by SD. Then PD came in and I came in and you know the rest. It is not like I am stricking a hammer on the table and shouting at people to stop calling Chaitanya as divine. I have absolutely no issues with people calling him as divine.

 

To copy a line from the 'Indian mother' joke posted by ggohil,

 

I am not saying that this 'is' a Gaudiya forum, nor am I saying that this 'is not' a Gaudiya forum, but the fact remains that the majority of the people here are Gaudiyas. Let us face it. The authenticity of Chaitanya's divinity is not what they would like to see being discussed here or anywhere else. They would rather accept it is a fact and get on with it.

 

Anyway, albeit not easy, henceforth I will try to steer clear of controversies. Note that I am saying 'try to'. (As I am typing this, I realize exactly how Ekalavya must have felt when he cut his thumb off and gave it to Drona)

 

Cheers

 

-----------

 

Confucius says a man who has both feet firmly on the ground will have trouble putting on pants.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by shvu:

Besides I would not say entire Bengal. Ramakrishna, etc were also Bengalis, but not GVs.

By the time of Ramakrishna, the influence of Chaitanya had weakened in Bengal and Orissa.

 

Also, I would add to the list Bangladesh (which was part of Bengal).

 

[Guest guest]

>> It does not bother me that followers of Goraknath do not accept Sri Chaitanyas divinity. But keep in mind that certainly Ramakrisha did.....as did many many others!

 

It is said that Sri Hari cannot keep hidden from His devotees. In spite of being a secret avatara, Sri Caitanya would be noticed by them.

 

Not all of the Vaisnavas who were Sri Caitanya contemporary had accepted His divinity. Sri Vallabhacarya, for example did not. He established his own sampradaya postulating pusti-marga, that is the same of raganuga-marga, but he rejected rasa-tattva. His followers consider him as an avatara of Sri Gopala, and there are also thousands of witness of the manifestation of His divinity according them. It is unecessary to stress the personal relationship among Sri Vallabha, Sri Caitanya and all of Sri Caitanya main folloers such as Sri Rupa nad Sanatana, as Sri Caitanya-caritmrta describe it in some details.

 

Sri Tulasidasa also was a contemporary of Sri Caitanya, but he has never recognized Sri Caitanya's divinity. He was a very exalted Vaisnava and he is worship by some members of Sri Sampradaya as Visnu-tattva.

 

Srimati Mirabai, was also a exalted Vaisnavi, who had many dealings with Sri Caitanya's followers such as Jiva Goswami, bur she never has recognized Sri Caitanya's divinity.

 

Of the 4 Vaisnava-sampradayas of Kali-yuga, none of them recognize Sri Caitanya avatara. Not even Madhva-sampradaya, were Gaudiya-vaisnavas proclaim to belong to, what to say Sri-sampradaya, Vallabha-sampradaya and Nimbarka-sampradaya.

 

It's stated that Gaudiya-vaisnavas were an inexpressive group in Vaisnavism before the advent of Iskcon. Can some one give some info on this aspect, based in some statistics?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

Yet the entire Bengal, Orissa and Manipur were converted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism; not to mention parts of North India such as Jaipur, Vrindavan, etc.

 

This is a very optimist and biased statement. Some unofficial statistics point out that 80% of the Bengal's population is sakti. Gaudiya-vaisnavas maybe gather 5 or 20% of the whole population according some evaluations made by Evangelic missionaries, considering if they are pure GV or mixed with saktas, muslins, and other groups.

 

It is easy to check in Bengal that almost every bannyan tree is a temple of Kali, and Kali's festivals, mandirs, and worship is largely spread all over the province. The same is observed in Orissa. Some colonies of Gaudiya-vaisnavas may be fond in Vrindavana, Jaipur, and also here and there in Rajastan, but they gather only a few people, maybe no more than 1 million, in a very optimist statistic.

 

Besides those places there is no significant Gaudiya-vaisnava's groups in the rest of Bharata. According the same Evangelic statistics, the whole population of Gaudiyas in India is about 20-30 million people, that is less than Christians in India, that they esteemed 7% of the population, or 70 million people!

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa