What is instinct?

[Gauracandra]

It always appears to me that the word instinct is substituted for "I don't have a friken clue" as a way to appear knowledgeable without answering why something actually happens. The reason I ask this is because a few days ago I was watching a program called "Animal Planet" and they were showing some remarkable examples of what animals do that require some level of intelligence.

 

For instance, there is one kind of ant that acts as a farmer. They go to a particular leaf and nibble bits of it off. The actual leaf is indigestible to the ant - will cause the equivalent of an ant tummy ache They then put the leaf in certain spots that are best to grow a kind of mold on top of it. Then they eat that mold which grows on those bits of leaf. There are so many examples of animals doing things that are always lumped in as instinct.

 

So what is instinct? besides a catch all word to cover up a lack of explanation. From a Vedantic perspective I have heard different explanations. First, that since we have gone through countless species of life (8,400,000 different species) that we "remember" to some extent the basics of those trillions of lives we have lived in those prior species. I have also heard that Paramatma (God residing in each living entity) gives instructions to help guide us in whatever species we are in.

 

If you have an opinion/explanation on this please share.

 

Gauracandra

[premananda]

There must be some divine involvement

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I remember a long time ago seeing a similar documentary on Kangaroos. They were explaining how as soon as the kangaroo is born, it immediately looks for the mother's nipple to drink milk.

[shvu]

 

Instinct is an amazing thing, almost a miracle. When we watch animal behavior on TV, it seems ludicrous to think that life was created by an accident.

 

Instinct is the intelligence of the body that comes naturally. It is the survival mechanism of the body. For example, birds migrate to the same places their ancestors migrated to. The location information is transferred genetically. Throw a dog into water and he will swim naturally. In India, once we saw a man leading a bear on a street. There was a cow nearby which was in a closed place. But even without seeing the bear, it sensed the bear and started yelling in fear, which was awesome. There was something in it's genes that reacted to the smell of the predator.

 

Man has his instincts too. Physical fear is instinctive. So are many other apsects of our behavior which we do not notice. The difference in man is his instincts are overlaid by his culture. Some believe that these acquired characters also get transmitted genetically. A good example story is Karna's training under Parasurama. When Karna bears the pain of a bee stinging him, Parasurama says, only a Kshatriya can sustain such pain. This is perhaps why Shastra was taught only to Brahmanas in the past. I personally have observed that in India, the average intelligence of Brahmins is higher than any other group. For example, most of the engineers in a Software company will be Brahmins.

 

Maternal instinct, Paternal instinct, etc are astounding and seem to be carefully engineered by someone.

 

Cheers

 

 

------------------

Confucius says a man who has both feet firmly on the ground will have trouble putting on pants.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The location information is transferred genetically.

Do you really expect us to believe this?

[shvu]

Do you really expect us to believe this?

Let me see...I would think that a person who believes that Chaitanya went back in time and appeared in the dreams of madhva et al., should have no trouble in believing anything.

 

However, I never expect people to believe stuff because someone posts it on the internet. Perhaps if you watch some programs on animal behavior on TV, sooner or later, you will see this for yourself.

 

Another suggestion: Since you are in Mysore, you can visit Ranganathithu some time and find out more about the migration pattern of the birds there. That should put your doubts to rest.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 05-20-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Shvu is in fact an avatara of Darwin.

 

 

We prefer the explanation given in Gita that Paramatma is the prompter of the living entity in every situation he is, and whatever body he may face. "Instinct" is only the evidence of Paramatma's prompting a jiva, giving him yoga-ksama and buddhi-ksama wherever he is.

 

We cannot find any good profit to living entities by following "The Origin of Species" instead of "Srimad Bhagavad-gita."

 

[Maitreya]

Yes it is hard to picture little maps encoded into DNA.Like for migratory birds for instance.DNA speaking,"Ok time to head south, turn left at Kansas, go for two hundred miles and then veer southeast at a 45 degree angle.You will recognize Florida by all the pink Flamingos in the yards.Stop there and relax for a couple of months, until I tell where to go next."

 

But yet some directives may be encoded.I think there may be a combination of Supersoul directing through DNA and through the heart.

 

The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy. Bg 18.61

 

One thing for sure, its a wild and wonderous thing and Supersoul is in control.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

 

 

[shvu]

 

O yes, I forgot. To the devotees, one should not give scientific explanations where ever a religious one is possible. How stupid am I, that I am trying to be rational?

 

In the hearts of all, resides the Lord making them act, as if they were mounted on a machine. - BG [don't remember the verse number]

 

There, this sounds much better than scientific junk !

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Shvu is in fact an avatara of Darwin.

Thanks SD. That is a real cool compliment. If it were not for Darwin, people would have still been under the impression that God waved his wand and man was created. Now thanks to him, there is an alternate plausible explanation.

 

Cheers

 

[Gauracandra]

But this is the very reason why I tend not to like the use of the word 'instinct'. I have never read any scientific explanation of the word instinct, beyond "its in the genes". Atleast saying that Paramatma is directing the living entity is internally consistent with the Vedantic view of the world. The materialistic view runs into a problem in that it views everything as mechanistic - this piece hits that piece, which drives this other item to move that to point b etc.... So if everything is mechanistic then I don't see how memory can be transferred genetically. The Vedantic view is that consciousness is transfered via the subtle body. The materialistic view is that consciousness dies with the body. So we are left with "Why does an ant go and grab a piece of leaf to grow mold to eat?" Because science can't explain this in terms of a mechanistic process they instead say that the mechanistic process is so complex, that it can't be understood, and so we call it instinct. This is what I mean by "they don't have a friken clue" and try to cover this fact by coming up with a very scientific sounding name. Why not just say "We're scientists, and we believe everything is mechanistic, but in all honesty we don't have enough knowledge to explain why ants do this."

 

Gauracandra

[Maitreya]

No devotee is afraid of science.But why are the so-called scientists afraid of recognizing the Supreme Scientist?

 

Creation without creator.Design without designer.Maintenance without maintainer.

 

Calling these proposals incomplete is being charitable.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The location information is transferred genetically.

But how can they make such a statement if they haven't located the particualr genes and encoding process involved. There is no evidence that such a gene exists. No geneticist has discovered such a gene. But we should blindly accept that this is how it happens? No thanks.

 

Scientists are expert at making an "I don't have a clue..." into a seemingly complex scientific statement. The above quote is a good example of this.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-20-2001).]

[shvu]

 

Many would be surprised to know that materialism has been around in India since 600 BC. Ajita Keshakambalin was the first known materialist. His philosophy follows,

 

----

 

He found no merit in sacrificing or offering or doing good either, because nothing exists but the material world - no other world, no afterlife, no benefit from service, no ascetics who have attained enlightenment or perfection. When a person dies, the body returns to earth, fluids to water, heat to fire, and breath to air, the senses into space, and no individuality remains. He criticized the view of Katyayana and others that the soul existed independently of the body. Ajita saw the individual as a whole which the apprehending mind can conceive.

 

Ajita taught people to respect life and honor the living while they are alive rather than death and those who are dead.

 

----

 

It is interesting that there were a number of non-vedic philosophies during this time and everyone was criticizing the other.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

Some scientists are studding the rack of a flying saucer that felt down in New Mexico in 1947. They conclude so many thinks that are now being disclosed to the populaces. One of these scientists recently stated that this craft and its crew were a kind of race controllers. They are coming from a distant place (37 light years from sun) in our Galaxy and call themselves the Ancestors, or the Forefathers, or a thing like that.

 

They are always looking after some special places in this universe, such as a distant sun, not very old nor very young, with a planetary system suitable for support mankind.

 

Some millions years ago, they fond this Earth and some humanoid monkeys, and by genetic engineering, through many different stages, they got the kind of humanoids that we are by now.

 

So, what is so surprising in this discovery? Smrti states that many Manus are doing that during the day of Brahma. How do you think they are acting? May be in that way, and why not?

 

But one should also consider that the engineering project is to enable some jivas to be placed in these kind of bodies to their evolution in sanatana-dharma. Jiva is eternal, and that spiritual evolution requires bodies, and Manu and his staff are providing these bodies all over.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu]

 

But how can they make such a statement if they haven't located the particualr genes and encoding process involved. There is no evidence that such a gene exists. No biologist has discovered such a gene.

Out of curiosity, if a child looks like it's parent, is that also not genetic?

 

Cheers

 

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by shvu:

Not blind. Based on whatever discoveries have been made so far, I am making a projection. On the other hand believing a book because it is old qualifies as blind faith.

 

shvu, have you yourself done all the scientific research that has evolved through the ages?So you are bindly accepting the conclusions of the imperfect senses of all these other 'humanoid units'.Blind faith.

 

 

To believe that there is a permanent place called heaven/Goloka and we can go there if we follow some laid down rules, is blind faith.

 

Faith is there but it is not exactly blind.I sense an extraordinary Life in the words of our acaryas.It is being proven to me daily, but in a way that will never fit under the electron microscope.

 

 

The concept of a hidden God who will not show himself [one wonders why] is blind.

 

God is not hiding, He is manifest everywhere.To have faith in the physical eyes only, is causing blindness.

 

Again, this is just another way of looking at the same thing. Just like you choose to put your faith in the religious books, one can put his faith in science.

 

OK, take your pick and take your chances.But for sure I don't consider myself at war with science.Just some of their conclusions.

 

I marvel at the workings of biology, and that knowledge is coming from Supersoul to the scientist.As we surrender He awards accordingly.Krishna is the essence of inteligence.The more they learn, the stronger my faith in God becomes.

 

MC

 

[JNDAS: I fixed the bold settings. They were messed up.]

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-20-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

>> Satyaraj:

You believe that Roswell bakwas? What books have you been reading?

 

No, I'm not worried with this subject matter. But we have some friends in net who are ufologists, and they sent us an e-mail asking what is the Vedic point of view of this discovery and we sent them these same answers. Can you help them with some better explanation?

Have them contact me thru email. I have personal experience with MAJESTIC-12 thru my US Army intelligence career dating back to 1968. These UFOs are not on the material plane, they are subtle bodies manipulating time/space quadrants.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Here is something on UFOs:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/vedas-ufos1.htm

 

[animesh]

I don't know if instinct is because of Parmatma residing in one's body or because of some other reason. But I agree that this is a possible explanation.

However, there is one thing I really hate is the oft-repeated comment made by devotees that scientists use their imperfect senses. I have lost count of how many times I have seen this comment. Do they want to say that they do not use their senses? Or, do they want to say that their senses are perfect? If they feel that their opinion is not because of their imperfect senses, then let me point out that this feeling is also because of imperfect senses.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think their point is that one can either receive knowledge by an ascending process or a descending process. An ascending process of knowledge is flawed because it is based on one's faulty sense perception (or imnperfect senses). The descending process of knowledge, theoretically speaking, is coming from God (it is apaurusheya), and thus free from the defects of human sense imperfections. Of course this presupposes that the knowledge has been trasnmitted without alteration, thus the need for a disciplic succession.

 

[Maitreya]

animesh,

 

It is true as you say that we are all caught in a situation where we must use our imperfect senses, even just to get through the day.

 

The scientific community however is misdirecting the course of society away from God realization by their conclusions of life based soley on conclusions drawn from imperfect sense perception.Thus they claim that the body is the self, there is no God etc.Therefore because they reject the idea of transcendence, they have positioned themselves as the enemy of mankind while cloaking themselves as the healers and saviors of mankind.All the while the hard earned taxes of the common man are wasted on their projects.

 

YS MC

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

And the process of descending knowledge involves to varying degrees the revelation of knowledge by God. Through the process of bhakti, Krishna within purifies the contaminations in one's heart and creates a suitable situation to receive transcendental knowledge.

 

Otherwise it is equally possible to use one's mundane senses to try to understand spiritual knowledge. But the scriptures advise against it, as it is an external process of comprehension. It is likened to an ant licking the outside of a jar of honey. They will be no transcendental realization.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

My Gosh! We're all here at the same time.

[Guest guest]

Satyaraj:

 

You believe that Roswell bakwas? What books have you been reading? Or maybe it is something you are smoking. Better put your tinfoil hat back on.