Conflict of interest...

[Guest guest]

Next ekadasi don't eat potatoes as Jndas has proved that Papapurusa may contaminate potatoes too.

[Guest guest]

If a potato has become impure, then it shouldn't be eaten, and it certainly shouldn't be offered to god.

 

By following your own reasoning in ekadasis the Papapurusa also make all potatoes impure, and one should never offer them to God and should never eat them. So, one should observe always nirjala-ekadasi every ekadasi, otherwise he will go to hell. But your Gurudeva has taught otherwise, and that is against sastra!? You may eat even carrots in ekadasi! That is considered cow meat!!! Everyone else follows this precepts, but your Gurudeva simply has ignored it!? Now how you dare to instruct someone on vegetarianism?

 

[Gauracandra]

This conversation is getting bizarre and weirdly funny. Who is being a fanatic here? No one is forcing anyone to be a vegetarian. Here we are in a free forum exchanging freely. No one is forced to accept anything. If you don't like the conclusions of Srila Prabhupada thats fine. But they are his instructions and I for one will follow them to the best of my ability.

 

As far as I'm concerned this conversation is 'Game Over'.

 

Gauracandra

[dasanudas]

Maybe they could start a Sattvic slowfood chain with the profits of their lawsuit, if they win that is.

"One mans' meat is another mans' potato"

I think it could be time to move on, on this one fellars I was kinea attracted to the fellar-ship conception. If you've ever noticed how temples become empty it's generally by the conduct of the sadhakas in them same thing applies to how how temples fill up to overflowing.

 

[Maitreya]

This exact conversation came up on VNN some time back.Of course nothing was resolved but there were some fun times,people were posting dancing carrots etc.

 

I gotta go anyway, its chore time, time to milk the carrots.

 

MC

 

 

[dasanudas]

Just keep an eye out for us in the rainy season prabhus, I take up shelta in a big purple house, some devotee told me it was Mahaprabhus favourite veg. goes to show y' can't believe everything ya hear.

Hmmm carrot milk! Is that from a kalpa-vrksa surabhi?

 

Originally posted by Maitreya:

This exact conversation came up on VNN some time back.Of course nothing was resolved but there were some fun times,people were posting dancing carrots etc.

 

I gotta go anyway, its chore time, time to milk the carrots.

 

MC

 

 

 

[dasanudas]

Who needs genetic engineers?

[Maitreya]

To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal-killing. The animal-killers are dangerous elements on the path going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal-killers. The soul is also sometimes called the “animal” or the living being. Therefore, both the slaughterer of animals and those who have lost their identity of soul are animal-killers.

Mahäräja Pariksit said that only the animal-killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal-killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal-killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization.

SB 1.3.24 purport excerpt

 

SB 1.17 the whole chapter is good to read on this point.

 

Satyaraja, you know these things.Why are you arguing?

 

MC

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Thank you Maitreya. There are hundreds of other places where Srila Prabhupada, Satyaraja's claimed siksha guru, says the same things. He is arguing because he does not like accepting he is wrong. Don't waste too much time on it. When we start the new forum we can provide ample statements from Shastra that state animal killing is a block to spiritual life and bhakti.

 

It is interestng to see the conversation between Mahaprabhu and Chand Kazi. His main argument is, "why are you killing cows?". He could have just spoken prema bhakti if he wanted to.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Next ekadasi don't eat potatoes as Jndas has proved that Papapurusa may contaminate potatoes too.

Whats your logic? I cant figure your statements out.

 

Any food can become contaminated. All food carries karmic reactions. Thats why we sanctify it by sacrifice. If a potato has become impure, then it shouldn't be eaten, and it certainly shouldn't be offered to god. This is what the Goswami Srila Prabhupada has taught.

 

You on the other hand say it remains pure as the ganga even if it touches beef. But you can't substantiate it with a quote. And then you say its my turn to provide quotes? I'm sorry, but your turn isn't over yet, unless you choose to forfeit your turn. Then I will gladly provide you with ample evidences of my statements. Say the word. Tell me you don't have any quotes to prove your claim. Then I will be ready for my turn.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Satyaraja, you know these things.Why are you arguing?

 

Nowadays so-called devotees are too much proud of their vegetarianism and they are doing too much proselytism on that topic. Some are committing unnecessary himsa against non-vegs and have nothing concrete to offer in spiritual life besides this misconception of a bhakti-formula of 4 principles and 16 rounds.

 

You known that our position is always try to preach precepts of suddha-bhakti following the guru-varga. We do respect Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami instructions to his disciples according place, time and circumstances, but some acaryas may also have different point of view.

 

Just read Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's teachings on vegetarianism and check that he is teaching yukta-vairagya, a gradual avoidance of meat and other animal foods, like fish and eggs. He was never a radical opposite of all non-veg people, never called them demons, rascals and so on. My own gurudeva follows the same precept and many others in rupanuga-guruvarga. So, we just do not consider Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami's precepts of phalguna-vairagya regarding vegetarianism as appropriate for many people linked to other maths, paribhars, and what to say to other darsans.

 

For certain none of our preceptors are meat eaters and none of them are insensible creatures, but their position in this regard is always the same: yukta-vairagya is the process. No one should remain indifferent to this discipline, so one should try to observe elementary sadacara, but this discipline should not be taken as a fanatic rule. This is called nyama-agraha (to remain indifferent to the prescribed rules or to follow them in a fanatic mood). See 2nd verse of Sri Upadesamrta.

 

Therefore, we are arguing only to try to establish vada concerning vegetarianism.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I said:

 

If a potato has become impure, then it shouldn't be eaten, and it certainly shouldn't be offered to god.

You replied:

By following your own reasoning in ekadasis the Papapurusa also make all potatoes impure, and one should never offer them to God and should never eat them.

I think your english is not up to par, and you aren't able to understand my sentence.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Satyaraja,

 

Just as a hypothetical question. If that buddhist monk you mentioned (the one who you claimed killed Shankaracharya by boiling him in oil) had put french fries into the oil along with Shankaracharya, would those french fries be pure or impure?

 

I'm just trying to sort out the interconnections between all the anugatya you follow.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-29-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Jndasa is now exhibiting symptoms of mad cow decease. Too much carrots intake!

[Gauracandra]

Actually, I would think the person who claimed that Shankaracarya, after losing a debate to a Buddhist monk, jumped into a pot of boiling oil to end his life, might be considered as suffering from mad cow disease. Who might that be? Its not the carrots, its the anugatya some intake.

 

Gauracandra

[Guest guest]

Actually, I would think the person who claimed that Shankaracarya, after losing a debate to a Buddhist monk, jumped into a pot of boiling oil to end his life, might be considered as suffering from mad cow disease. Who might that be?

 

Srila Bhaktiprajñana Kesava Goswami Maharaja, who was the sannyasa-guru of Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, wrote a book named "The Life History of Mayavadism." In this book he mentioned that Sankaracarya had an ignoble demise in the country of Tibet, according Sivanatha Siromani's "Sabdaratha Mañjari," in 818 A.D. He has been defeated by a Tibetan Lama and died in a cauldron of boiling oil. (see pg 118 of "The Life History of Mayavadism" for more details)

 

It is interesting to stress that Srila Bhaktiprajñana Kesava Goswami Maharaja was a very intimate disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, and many considered him as his guru's shadow. He would not write such a thing without his guru's knowledge.

 

This is the anugatya we are following.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Srila Bhaktiprajñana Kesava Goswami Maharaja, who was the sannyasa-guru of Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, wrote a book named "The Life History of Mayavadism." In this book he mentioned that Sankaracarya had an ignoble demise in the country of Tibet, according Sivanatha Siromani's "Sabdaratha Mañjari," in 818 A.D. He has been defeated by a Tibetan Lama and died in a cauldron of boiling oil. (see pg 118 of "The Life History of Mayavadism" for more details)

The book you have mentioned, also referred to as "Vaishnava Vijaya", is quite questionable due to the huge number of historical errors found in it. The title itself suggests it is a one sided topic. I don't know why the respected swamiji chose to include many dubious claims in this work. It was obviously meant for a particular time, place and circumstance (as you like to say), and not as a factual account of ancient history. Throughout the book he misquotes countless people and books, even going as far as attributing a statement to a particular verse of the torah, which in fact does not say what he claims.

 

As far as his opinion of Shankara, he chooses to go by the statements of one Shivanath Shiromani, a completely unknown personality who did not live any time near that of Shankara. In the book "Vaishnava Vijaya", the swamiji states:

 

"Sivanatha Shiromani was a known advaita-vadi and a respectable acharya from the past. He had his own conclusive ideas on Shankaracharya and he delivered them to a seminar of acharyas which shows a totally unique point of view."

Unique, as in not in line with any traditional biography. Further more, he chooses to mainly quote from recent bengali scholars. When citing from works, he chooses to cite page numbers rather than verse numbers! This clearly shows his book was meant for that particular time, when those books were available.

 

Just to give one example of an error in this book:

 

There is some discrepancy and conflicting time references concerning the exact chronology of Shankaracharya's birth; but it is our calculation that he was born in 786 A.D. at the village of Chidambaram in Kerala.

This is absolutely wrong on a number of points. It is interestng to note that this year happens to be the one accepted by the same Shivanatha Shiromani, and in fits with

the alleged boiling in oil in 818 A.D. going by Shankara's age when he left.

 

In which book does it say Shankara was born in Chidambaram?! Maybe some Bengali scholars had written such things, and it had been accepted. Who knows. But I wouldn't go around quoting this to anyone else.

 

We should also note that this book was originally a series of articles published in a newsletter. It was not meant to be a book.

 

He says Shankara's date was 786 A.D., but he also quotes the Dwaraka Matha's manuscripts that Chitsukacharya of Dwaraka Math was from 2757 Kali era, or roughly 300 B.C. How did Shankara's later disciple appear 1000 years before Shankara? His answer is simple, he accepts Shivanatha Shiromani's date for shankara and rewrites everyone elses date to come after him.

 

There are countless other errors in this book, such as dates, histories, and books attributed to different acharyas.

 

All I can say is no one would accept the statements as fact, neither scholars nor traditionalists. The essence of the book may be what should be seen and not the actual exact statements. They are clearly and undisputably wrong.

 

[Love]

That's quite interesting to know that Shankaracharya spent his last days in Tibet. I don;t know if that is true, but I think I read somewhere a theory that Muslim rulers made use of black magic to gain control over the Hindu psyche. It was at this time they focused their attention on Indian tantrics and started killing them in a meditated fashion. They did so to remove any opposition to their black magic, which was proving ineffective while these tantrics were around. So, left with little help around them these tantrics escpaed to Tibet. Also, it seems there are innumerable references to Indian tantrics who lived their lives out in Tibet and were highly respected their and became lamas themselves and did great work to enhance their tantric knowledge. Unfortunately, major part of Tibetan text was destroyed by the Chinese sytematically.

 

The reson for this thinking seems to be the reason that when Muslims tried to ocnvert Hindus to Islam they failed miserably as Hindus refused to believe in their view of the God - A God who was biased favourably only towards those who worshipped Him and destined non-believers to hell (dozakh). So, they started using black-magic to impress upon common Hindu that their God was greater than any God that a Hindu knew. Till, however Indian tantrics were around they anulled their effects and that is where it became necessary for them to eliminate Hindu tantrics, who were actually far superior to the Muslim black-magicians.

[Guest guest]

All I can say is no one would accept the statements as fact, neither scholars nor traditionalists. The essence of the book may be what should be seen and not the actual exact statements. They are clearly and undisputably wrong.

 

Yes, most would agree with you. For certain those who have the same opinion on Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami's books. Without any doubt his books are considered by them as a 'Nobel Premium' of literature absolutely wrong on a number of points.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Satya, before providing the quotes from smriti that potatos are pure like the ganga even if they touch beef, could you first explain how Shankaracharya was born in Chidambaram? And why no one else in the world has ever made this statement?

 

You may want to defend that Shankaracharya was born in Chidambaram, but the fact is it isn't true. Its about as true as Madhvacharya being born in Brazil.

 

One more thing about this book. I have doubts about the quality of the translation and editing. It was originally written in Bengali. I noticed in some places the editors have used the english word "gnostic", when the author had actually used the sanskrit word "nastik" (nastika). The two words have absolutely opposite meanings. But no one involved in the publication noticed this mistake.

 

Its very funny to read the sentence that is supposed to be speaking against atheists (nastikas), but instead is condemning "gnostics".

[Guest guest]

I have doubts about the quality of the translation and editing.

 

We may agree in that point. The same is often fond in Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Goswami's books. In some of them is stated that guñja-mala is a kind of neck lace made of shells. Probably in Isckon temples they offer neck laces made of shells to the Deities.

 

In most of them is also stated that inanimate beings in Vraja are in santa-rasa. And that Uddhava went to Vraja to teach gopis.

 

We see that by now they are trying to solve this problem in BBT since they made more than 5,000 new modifications on the original Acarya's mistakes. But we are a very few people in Samiti and cannot do that as a matter of duty.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[dasanudas]

One thing for sure this is a sad story for the potato, once the king of vegetables ending its life of dedication in the humble soil, only to associate with potential mad cows, better to get the hoofdust of a raging bull on the bankes of the Jamuna.

Could they be considered humbler than the straw that composts them above?

Whatever you do don't read too much into my post, you may think I am the eggplant-man

coo coo c-chu.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

 

And that Uddhava went to Vraja to teach gopis

 

 

So you fault Srila Prabhupada for saying the above, but just consider the following.

Uddhava went to Vrndavan, where he realized the glories of the gopis.He had previously thought, "I am superior to all other devotees."But when he came to Vrndavana he understood that,"Krishna has sent me to learn somthing in this prema school,the devotional school of the gopis.

Narayana Maharaja Pinnacle of Devotion pg.106

 

YS MC

 

[amanpeter]

quote:

 

 

Uddhava went to Vrndavan, where he realized the glories of the gopis.He had

previously thought, "I am superior to all other devotees."But when he came to

Vrndavana he understood that,"Krishna has sent me to learn somthing in this prema

school,the devotional school of the gopis.

Narayana Maharaja Pinnacle of Devotion pg.106

 

 

YS MC

 

Excellent point, prabhu!

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe ALWAYS Radhe!

[dasanudas]

This is a god point prabhu I 3rd the response.

I was wondering if anyone might know the story of Syamananda prabhu. I vaguely remember hearing Srila Sridhara Maharaj talking once about him being promoted from one rasa to madhura rasa owing to his enthusiastic service mood. Srimati Radharani directly intervened and converted him to Her service. But I can't find the tape anywhere.

The reason I ask is that this statement talking about Uddhava made me wonder if such souls seeing the devotion of the Vraja gopis are drawn to want to serve in such capacity.

Of course they are all complimenting that divine setting in some way as Mahaksa expressing so nicely over on Darma mela but it's a curious point.Any input on this, or should it be thrown to the acharyas?

Gaura hari bol