Is there such a thing as Universal beauty?

[Gauracandra]

This is not really a religious question. I understand that to some degree beauty is subjective, but is there also some objective aspect that as a group we humans find to be beautiful. I asked this question at work and the responses varied. Some said only mathematics showed true beauty, others said God, some said there is no universal sense of beauty etc....

 

But are there some keys that unite all cultures. For instance, I tend to think of symmetry as having beauty. What about color? Are bright colorful items considered more beautiful? And texture, which is sort of symmetry on the surface. Wouldn't smooth items be considered more beautiful than jagged edges?

 

I remember seeing a study once, where they showed various pictures to babies and tried to catalogue their expressions. Bright colors tended to get positive responses. Big soft, round pictures (smooth edges) tended to get positive responses as well. Perhaps this is why cartoon characters are always round circles or very fluffy and bulky. Wouldn't this suggest that colorfulness is associated with beauty? Just like animals, like bees get attracted by colorful flowers, and so approach them, which helps spread the pollen further out of the general area.

 

Again, this is just a general question and would be interested in your comments. It doesn't have to be beauty in the sense of the way people look either (though feel free to comment on that as well).

 

Gauracandra

[Dharma]

I would say yes. What is interesting to me is that by the time Buddhism reached other parts of Asia it had gone from meditation on corpses to meditating on a cherry blossoms. Just as impermanent yet much more beautiful and ceratinly less odiferous.

 

The Greeks realized the mathmatics of beauty. The specific proportion thatis pleasing to the eye is 62%-38% and was called the golden rectangle. It was also called the Golden Mean or "Law of Beauty". There is a very good Disney movie called "Donald in Mathmagic Land" that goes into it for those not inclined to study geometry.

 

There is a realtionship with running, swimming, walking etc which requires numbers based on Golden proportions. They are Fibonacci numbers found by using square root of numbers which harmonized with the Golden Mean. Fibonacci numbers are gotten by adding the previous 2 numbers starting with one (it is assumed that 0 proceeds). 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13, etc. This is called tye Golden measure. There are only five shapes nature builds with. Tis also relates to phi (five).

 

For an object to be considered beautiful it must have inherant balance. Phi is an unconscious attractor. The way the eye receives impulses in the retinal field is 62% reception and 38% supression. Perhaps that is why. Anyway appears that phi is in the human "hard drive".

 

As the realtionship to spirituality and beauty, the ancients used the Golden mean called Phi Ratio as a spiritual practice to develop spiritual vision and deep levels of perception. Christ was depicted holding two fingers with thumb and 3rd finger connected showing phi ratio. Icons frequently show this. The Christian cross also is phi ratio.

 

This ratio of beauty gave us the words

Philosophy (phi-loso-phi) and standard. St==1st, nd=2nd, rd=3rd. All other numbers are assigned to TH. Thus standard of beauty.

 

The golden measure is not so much a number as a relationship between a small part and large part of the whole (Poornamida, chant is brought to mind).

 

The 5 pointed star which is the shape of man said to be created in God's image contains nothing but phi (five) relationships and every part of this star contains the exact coordinates for the replication of itself over and over again. Phi is considered to be the number of creation. Interestingly the the ratio of dna molecule is 34-21 aproximately the golden measure.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 06-01-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

Thank you for that information. I have heard that the Greeks designed their buildings based on certain measurements that would create the greatest level of aesthetic balance. I noticed you discuss Vaastu and Feng Shui in another posting. Do you know how these measurements are used to create balanced space? It would make sense to me that we would find beauty in balance, and this is perhaps common to all cultures.

 

Gauracandra

[JRdd]

This is such an interesting discussion. The silpa shastra gives very detailed proportions of the ideal body, including I think it is the head being one eighth in height of the total body, ordinary mortals tending to be at a ratio of 1:7. right around the time I was dabbling a bit in this, the devotee painters in Los Angeles were also learning this, and the figures in the paintings began to take on very specific characteristics. Look at the picture of Sita Rama in the Bhagavatam, the very elegant one with Them standing in the forest, Rama's bow upright, resting on the ground. I had the fortune to also be learning from Bharadraj prabhu the facial proportions in learning to sculpt Krishna's face, and these proportions were strictly delineated. I have never forgotten them. Look at photos of the FATE exhibit. Note the facial profiles.

 

I read in a magazine, while sitting somewhere waiting, an article on what makes one person more attractive to others than another. They featured famous stars, and showed how symmetry did tend to play a strong role in attracting people. If both sides of the face matched, people were drawn to it, even though unconscious of why.

 

But it's funny, as I have always tended to think of a certain asymmetry as being beautiful. Look at a tree. Every branch, every twig, every leaf, different. Yes as a whole there is some symmetry, of course. Growing up I shunned what I called "yearbook handsome"--those bland, too well-proportioned faces that were easily forgettable. Setting aside comparisons to the all-beautiful Lord, for the time being, to me far more attractive is the quirky lopsided face of Harrison Ford--but then it is hard to separate personality from strictly physical characteristics, for those I grow fond of look more and more beautiful to me, while those who show mean traits begin to look quite ugly to me. I have always been fascinated by this phenomena--how a person's looks change according to one's perceptions. Since I got on the subject of human attractiveness, I always wonder why people think Brad Pitt is so good-looking. He has a very strange shape of face. Even stranger is the face of Leonardo Decaprio. Now that is one very weird face. It must be their smiles. Or something shining from within. Who can understand. Is beauty subject or objective? Is that what we are really asking here.

 

Back to symmetry. Taken alone, some features may look odd, but assembled together in a certain combination, a person's face can look very beautiful. Look at Julia Roberts. She has such a big mouth. And Liv Tyler.

 

I was just telling Visoka, who has just had to have his photo taken for the cover of his book on Jayananda prabhu, how I just love looking at devotees, and how as a young hippie the devotees looked like angels to me. Someone can seem very plain and then they smile and their eyes sparkle and there is nothing like it. Hair is so attractive and yet these shaven-headed souls were more attractive than any old hippie. I used to love drawing faces of devotees while sitting in Bhagavatam class (it actually helped me concentrate better, to keep my restless hands busy).

 

Anyway, I think everyone truly is beautiful (physically I am talking right now) in their own ways, manifesting a small degree of their Creator, the Supreme Artist.

[dasanudas]

No doubt we've all meditated and wondered about the beautiful three fold bending form of Krsna and I often wonder just how accurate these artistic impressions are.

Srimate Radharani Had her pictures of Krsna in His absense. Love to see that picture!

Then Visnupriya devis deity Of Sri Gauranga which is presently existing in Navadwip, is supposedly designed according to her heart and vision of her beloved Lord Gauranga.

 

Jayaradhe do you know if you can still paste pictures or animated gifs on these forums like VNN if it won't load the cache too much?

If so I'd like to paste some photos from my own collection but you never told us how to do it from our own files I don't think.

 

This question is also open to our kind host Sripad Jndas Prabhu who is allowing us to associate in his 'Audarya Fellowship' to whom I am very greatful I hope the sacrifice is not too demanding on top of your regular contributions to the forums, and you have some assistance if need be. Unfortunately I can't offer to help as it seems it's all in your good hands, but feel free to adjust me personally if I'm not living up to nessacary standards of ettiqette and civilized manners we should endeavour to keep on such public forums. I often feel like I'm a guest in some ones house and should act accordingly, not just treat it as though we are free to act and say anything in the name of free speech.

Audarya (Nice Name)is giving the message of divinity and not demonicy. Just thought I'd drop that in while it was moveing me to, sorry if I strayed from the beauty thread for awhile, I'll be back.

[Gauracandra]

I just recalled some psychology studies I read about regarding beauty. In the first, they showed various people pictures of men and women but they digitally alterred the pupils of their eyes. What they found was that those who had larger pupils were consistently seen as more attractive. This gives some explanation on why candlelight dinners are seen as romantic. In the darkness, the eyes adjust to allow more light in, so the pupils expand. This sort of connects to Dharma's explanation on how the eyes receive information.

 

Another study showed pictures of people themselves (ie. I would be shown my own picture). First they would show the picture as they actually were, then they would show a picture as though it were a mirror image. People consistently found the mirror image of themselves as the more attractive. Why? Because thats how they always would see themselves, in the mirror. So this would suggest that their own conception of beauty had more to do with familiarity.

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

Gauracandra

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Another point to keep in mind is if there is absolute beauty, there should be absolute ugliness. We could even extend these concepts beyond shape and form, up to the point of consciousness and action. I think that is what the ancient Vedic texts do; the physical is only an external manifestation of the internal consciousness.

[Gauracandra]

Very good point. Isn't this called 'ojas'? I remember reading various stories like from the Mahabharat, where there are very beautiful people, but as soon as they commited a grievous sin, all their inner light was extinguished and they lost their luster. Please provide any information on this. I think this inner beauty is what both Premananda and myself were commenting on with regard to Srila Bhakti Vaibhav Puri Maharaj in another posting. He has this twinkle in his eye, and a smile that lights up the room. When I see his picture I see that inner light. I think all the saints have this quality about them. Isn't there some sort of Vedic science about reading someone's face? Also, I recall a story about Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj somewhat related. It seems that an astrologer disciple of a Sri

Vaisnava Acharya said that Srila Gour Govinda Swami had all of the bodily markings of a perfected soul. The Acharya went to go see and confirmed this himself. You also mentioned about some sadhu who had a hairy back and indicated that this tends to be a particular characteristic of many sadhus. Not that physical appearance necessarily has anything to do with spiritual life, but I'd be curious about these bodily signs. Just curious.

 

Gauracandra

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The spiritual luster is known as 'Tejas', 'Ojas' is a less subtle form of this luster. Generally one's Tejas is developed by austerities such as brahmacharya. Brahmacharya increases ojas, which later transforms into tejas by traveling up the spinal cord to the brain.

 

Another aspect of beauty is the conditioning of the viewer. For someone too much engrossed in lower modes of nature is unable to see absolute beauty.

[Gauracandra]

JRdd,

 

I liked your statement about what is attractive. You are right, often times perfect symmetry is very boring. It sounds like you are an artist so perhaps you can comment on this. I remember years ago in highschool taking an art class. The teacher gave us a bunch of cardboard cutouts of various shapes (triangles, squares, squiggly lines etc...) and we were to place them on a piece of paper to learn composition. Most of us just lined up the shapes in the most symmetrical way and it was boring to look at. Then the teacher would show how just by tilting a few things a bit askew it would create a much more interesting "energy" to the look of the shapes. Perfect symmetry where all the lines line up is boring even if it is all balanced.

 

Gauracandra

[JRdd]

I once had a little book on physiogamy, which told how to read a person by their physical characteristics. (I did not use it to do such, not being inclined to categorize people or hold them true to some formula, but was fascinated all the same.) This was written from a Vedic perspective, and perhaps JNdas prabhu has referred to this science, or knows what it is called. Taking on particular features is no random accident but corresponds to the mentality of the person. Hair color, shape and size of nose, etc., according to this study, tell you a lot about the person. This of course relates to karma, consciousness at the time of death, etc.

 

About the pupils, when I was a pupil myself, in college, there was one book, someone wellknown put together (forget who) and there wre photos of people which focused on their pupils. The would show the same person, with the same expression, and ask you to say whether the person was angry or fearful or whatever. It seems that the size of the pupils gives these emotions away, and one can read them without consciously knowing it. So if one is feeling love that person may look way more attractive than one who is feeling coldness, simply by the way the pupils look.

 

Mr das-ji, I am going to see if there is a category on this forum where I can address your questions about posting images. I was going to do it in email but I think it is much more helpful to share it publickly, and we may get more feedback and learn even more that way. I think your paintings are fantastic, as are your personal collections of nectar. (As are your perspectives)

 

ys, JR

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

You can post pictures, but they need to be on a server on the internet (not on your hardrive). To post images use the html command:

 

< img src="http://[url OF PICTURE]" >

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-02-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Hey MC, wait'll you get to India! Those eyes! Real women compared to Barbi-dolls (not talking about devotees, here). Danger at every step, prabhu! I can really identify with your previous post. My only shelter was/is Radhika. To get out of the rain, I was forced to dive into the ocean! Now a little water has minimal effect, if you follow my analogy, since I remain fully soaked.

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe ALWAYS Radhe!

[JRdd]

Okay so if anyone wants to share any universal beauty here, they can email images to me, and I can post them on an unlinked page of my website (if they wish it to be unlinked to my other pages, which share nectar). Then I can give you the url of the images to post here (ask for help if that's tricky for you), or another way is to insert the link to that page. Mr Das, you have to change your images to jpgs or gifs though first. They seem to always be still in bitmaps or something.

 

JR

[JRdd]

oh yeah:

 

worldfamilyart@

 

(the site for sore eyes is:

http://www.geocities.com/theopenheart

 

inspiring inputs welcome--poems, tales, pix, whatever.

[JRdd]

Natural beauty is waiting for you MC.

 

Picture it: trees all around, the sound of a flowing river, the mahamantra dancing on your tongue, a little rest on a boulder with your toes in the water....

 

[Gauracandra]

This posting was worth it just to find out about your website JRdd. Very nice. By the way is that you in the picture? Its always nice to know who is on the other end of the internet connection. I'm sure I'll be visiting your site many times. Thank you.

 

Gauracandra

[JRdd]

Thank you. I wish I could see the beautiful glowing faces of the devotees here.

 

Jayaradhe

[Maitreya]

The concept of beauty is influenced by the three gunas right?Take the idea of beauty as it appears in the West.Women are desparately trying to be beautiful to atrract the men.It has reached a very sad state.Billions spent on expensive fashions and make up.Some are attracted but to me it just looks so cheap.So external and false.And now surgeries

of all descriptions.Men also.To me it all detracts from the real beauty one may have.Nothing more sad than a practiced smile.

 

I still remember seeing this picture in a National Geogrphic magazine many many years ago.The article was on Kashmir.There was this picture of a young Kashmirian[sp] woman walking along holding a basket of some freshly picked fruit on her head.

 

She was soooo beautiful.So natural. So unpretentious.She had this radiant smile that was generated from within.Fancy clothes?None.In fact what she had on was cloth of a coarse nature and patched at places.And she was fully covered.A real freshness though that could not be hidden.

 

God save my from the charm of your earth daughters such as her.Something about such naturally beautiful women who aren't afraid to touch the earth that makes me melt.

 

One picture and over twenty years and I'm still smitten.

 

So strong is Krishna's illusury energy.

 

MC

[animesh]

God save my from the charm of your earth daughters such as her.

 

God save you when you come to India.

[premananda]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Hey MC, wait'll you get to India! Those eyes! Real women compared to Barbi-dolls (not talking about devotees, here). Danger at every step, prabhu! I can really identify with your previous post. My only shelter was/is Radhika. To get out of the rain, I was forced to dive into the ocean! Now a little water has minimal effect, if you follow my analogy, since I remain fully soaked.

 

 

It is truly the only way - to dive into the ocean of Srimati Radhika´s and Sri Krishna´s beauty!

 

P D

 

 

[premananda]

A beautiful painting by, and the Deities of Sri Gadadhara-prana Prabhu

 

http://w1.408.telia.com/~u40803581/Radha_Krishna.jpg

 

http://w1.408.telia.com/~u40803581/gg.jpg

 

[This message has been edited by premananda (edited 06-03-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

Very nice painting Premananda.

 

Something very odd occured in the artistic world in the last century. At some point it was decided that the only "true" art was that which dwelled upon the lower aspects of life. This is for all art forms (painting, music, theater etc...) If the painting was concerned with beauty it was considered childish. Only that which was tortured and introspective, that searched the depths of human depravity was seen as true art. This has been a long time in development. There was a story of a young painter a few years back. His paintings were selling fairly well. But as soon as he commited suicide immediately everyone wanted one of his paintings.

 

Perhaps it was a backlash against the paint by numbers of many artists who dealt with society surfacially. William Bennett (former education secretary in the U.S.) used to say that art should be evocative not provocative. Today just to get attention many artists try to denigrate beauty and religion (most often denigrating Christ).

 

So I truly enjoyed this painting and those by JRdd because they are both evocative and beautiful. They are spiritual paintings but not just "by the numbers". It sounds like dasanudas is an artist as well, so I'd like to see his paintings too. I think art and Vaisnavism go hand in hand. Both are trying to express the feelings and emotions of the soul.

 

Gauracandra

[JRdd]

OOO I love that painting! I was hoping it woud be that one, which I have never forgotten since someone posted it on the vnn forums last year. Does anyone know who the artist is? Is there a way to get prints of it?

 

Gauracandra prabhu I hope you didnt think all the images on the Jaladuta (Open Heart) site were mine. The ones on the site linked from it were though, except the two fruit paintings which were done by Isvari, who also does wonderful devotional paintings soon to be sold (as prints) also on website.

 

I agreed with the idea of surrounding ourselves with natural beauty created by the Supreme Artist, and even more, the beauty of the Artist Himself and all his associates. Also it is balm for the eyes to see a harinam party. Devotees are so beautiful. I just love them. I can't help it.

 

On the topic of history, Gauracandra prabhu, did you hear of the Pre-Raphaelites? They started as a young group of friends in their late teens and twenties, in the late 1800's; they started a movement of more realistic paintings, including images which symbolized spiritual aspects. I did one painting inspired by this. (It's the one of the woman called "The Call", which to me can be like Radha hearing Krsna's flute in the night and leaving everything to go there. A peacock feather can be seen on the floor in front of her. It can also be seen as a woman leaving her comforts and opulences behind for her spiritual destiny, dropping everything and stealling away in the night.) Anyway if you get a chance look through a book on their art. The style is beautiful.

 

Jayaradhe

[Maitreya]

At times I feel as though I am living within an artistic expression that is being continually displayed all around us.

 

Like the artwork that would magically appear on my wall every evening in spring and summers past.The sunlight would hit these tree branches just outside my window and would then cast this interplay between light and dark on my walls.The most beautiful of patterns from the leaves and the contrasting sunlight would fill my living room.Blowing breezes causing them to be ever shifting.Magic,pure magic.

 

All was well until the evil landlord trimmed the tree.

 

But no real loss, as these artistic expressions are being played out all the time and all over the place, in various ways.

 

Like the wood grain pattern on my desk,everywhere.

 

"All pervading beauty".