leyh Posted June 2, 2001 Report Share Posted June 2, 2001 When I talk to Christians about Krishna, they inadvertently would quote John 14:6 ("I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through me.") to "prove" that Krishna and Christ cannot be both divine.By their logic,if Krishna is divine, then Christ must have been lying when he declared that no one can go to the father except through him, and on the other hand, if Christ is not a liar,then Krishna cannot be divine. So how should such claims be satisfactorily answered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
govinda das Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Jai Sri Krishna! Not all Christians say like that. Seems like you have been talking with Evangelical Christians. Many Catholic and Protestant theologians say that God reveals Himself in other religions too. It may be true that Jesus was the only way, in that time, place and circumstance. But it should not be considered an absolute statement. It is not that Jesus is the only way, in every time, place and circumstance. y s Govinda Dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 I saw a program on TV about the developments of the early Christian church. There were two main parties initially. One was led by the brother of Jesus who wanted to emphasize the words of Christ, the other party wanted to emphasize the body of Christ. In the end, those that emphasized the body of Christ won out. This is why "Jesus is the only way" is so predominant today. But this is not necessarily the original view. Joseph wanted to focus on the philosophy as preeminent. Gauracandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 It is unfortunate that the external body is given more importance than the essential teachings. If one understands the instructions of the spiritual master to be more important than the physical body, then it becomes easy to understand what it means, "Only through me." Essentially the teachings of the great saints are all the same, thus any one who is following a bonafide saint is going through Christ, as the message is identical - to love God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasanudas Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 This quote can be seen from another perspective Leyh which is very much in keeping with the vaisnava understanding of Guru i.e.That all approach divinity thru the agents of divinity that is one can't approach direct, just as you don't march into the presidents office and tell him you have some concern about how the country is being run, rather you go thru the correct channells to gain a meeting. Similarly in the kingdom of God we find this same arrangement we approach a genuine representive, enquire from them submissively about the Truth and then by their grace one is introduced to the Lord and His wonderful entourage. In Vaisnavism this is the same and it is called Parampara or disciplic succession. It's a very simple system but foolproof, and is put in place to protect the Lords teaching from misrepresentation from unscrupulous cheaters who come in the Name of God, but who have no validation from the God realized living agents that they are the genuine article. For the Truth to be the Absolute Truth it must be aligned to Sadhu (the Saints)Scripture and the Lord in our heart. If not then it is to be rejected> Krsna Confirms this Himself where He states verily it's not those who say they are my servant who are , but rather the servant of the servant of my servant they are truly my servant. This does'nt mean that everyone who is connected to a genuine spiritual master can give the Truth as there are varying degrees of sincerity within all spiritual lineages and insincerity. But for the transmission of Truth in Gaudiya Vaisnavism it must descend thru those who have it. Srila Prabhupad could say these same words and they would be just as true as Jesus. Unfortunately when such statements get into the heads of fundamentalist neophytes they are just used to light sectarian bonfires. My teacher and teachings are the only teachings of divinity, sadly we are watching this play out in the middle east and so many other misguided hotspots around the planet at present. But it is true what Jesus says and we can harmonise with this statement if it's not misconstrued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted June 3, 2001 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Originally posted by dasanudas: This quote can be seen from another perspective Leyh which is very much in keeping with the vaisnava understanding of Guru i.e.That all approach divinity thru the agents of divinity that is one can't approach direct, just as you don't march into the presidents office and tell him you have some concern about how the country is being run, rather you go thru the correct channells to gain a meeting. Similarly in the kingdom of God we find this same arrangement we approach a genuine representive, enquire from them submissively about the Truth and then by their grace one is introduced to the Lord and His wonderful entourage. In Vaisnavism this is the same and it is called Parampara or disciplic succession. It's a very simple system but foolproof, and is put in place to protect the Lords teaching from misrepresentation from unscrupulous cheaters who come in the Name of God, but who have no validation from the God realized living agents that they are the genuine article. For the Truth to be the Absolute Truth it must be aligned to Sadhu (the Saints)Scripture and the Lord in our heart. If not then it is to be rejected> Krsna Confirms this Himself where He states verily it's not those who say they are my servant who are , but rather the servant of the servant of my servant they are truly my servant. This does'nt mean that everyone who is connected to a genuine spiritual master can give the Truth as there are varying degrees of sincerity within all spiritual lineages and insincerity. But for the transmission of Truth in Gaudiya Vaisnavism it must descend thru those who have it. Srila Prabhupad could say these same words and they would be just as true as Jesus. Unfortunately when such statements get into the heads of fundamentalist neophytes they are just used to light sectarian bonfires. My teacher and teachings are the only teachings of divinity, sadly we are watching this play out in the middle east and so many other misguided hotspots around the planet at present. But it is true what Jesus says and we can harmonise with this statement if it's not misconstrued. Dear dasanudas: Do you think that the teaching that "The Guru is one" can be reconciled with what Jesus says in John 14:6? Maybe we can solve the apparent contradiction with Srila Prabhupada's formula:"for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva, or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me, and all others." (February 1936 discourse at the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Matha). When Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life", could the "I" be a reference to the guru principle (Christ) rather than the person (Jesus) who embodied it?Comments, anyone? [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 06-03-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasanudas Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Yes precisely! That's more or less what I was trying to express. But at the same time it does'nt apply to any and all gurus, they must BE guru, embody that Christ principle. Not just play it. Then they will be the True Way of Life. Or the Living Way of Truth that will reveal our beloved Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 Someone (perhaps Jijaji or Jagat) may recall the specifics more accurately, but approximately 10 years ago there was something called the Jesus Seminar, where a group of Christian theologians attempted (through computer analysis that dated specific parts of the bible) to find out which passages in the bible were (more accurately) the words of Jesus and which sayings were added on much later by the Church. The results of their findings were that that specific quote (I am the only way, the truth and the light) could not have been spoken by Jesus during his time on Earth. This makes a lot of sense, as that one quote did more to divide people of faith (in the God of their choice) than to bring people together under the common banner of Love, tolerance and acceptance (of those of different faiths). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasanudas Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 As soon as they quote, I am the ONLY way, I run the other way. But depending how one presents Harer nama Harer nama Hare namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha also may well alter the timespan we hold anothers attention. Everyone thinks their Lord is the One and only best, otherwise what's the point of worshipping a losing God. Why worship # 2. But I know my Lords #1.If your God is a loser, then can you feel like a winner, unless of course we are in competition to Him and that's certain suicide. Sorry the thought process takes one in some unusual directions at times. Gaura hari Gaura hari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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