If material love is only illusion...?

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Unfortunately, today philosophy has become public property and everyone knows something in bits and pieces. This has resulted in all this confusion, because half knowledge is worse than no knowledge.

 

This is an evident result of the mixed world the we are living now. Eastern people have the tendency to consider themselves as 100% spiritual and philosophical, while westerns use to believe that they are 100% material. When they are mixed in a consumption society easterns adopt a material-philosophical way of life accepting all bits and pieces of the materialist society remaining with some of their philosophical conceptions, while westerns adopt a philosophical-material way of life accepting all bit and pieces of the philosophical society remaining with most of their material conceptions.

 

Then we mix all this philosophy in a futile attempt to evade personal responsibility for our actions, as a kind of pseudo-liberation, while remaining increasingly more attached to the material concept of reality, though all the while believing we're progressing on the spiritual path! Beauty! Mayadevi rules!

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...

[Audarya lila]

The solution to all problems is ultimately spiritual. Material solutions will bring more problems along with solving - it is an endless cycle. For all spiritualists, whether dvaitin, advaitin or any other the actual problem is lack of self realization.

 

So, from a spiritual perspective, Atma's friend would do well to focus on spiritual awakening and then she would realize the 'she' doesn't need money, food, etc.

 

So how will Atma's friend come to this level of understanding? Or for that matter any of us? We have to start from where we are and progress accordingly being fully honest and not falsely jumping ahead. A good beginning is to learn to respect all others and try not to exploit others for our own personal needs. If she truly doesn't care for this person she should be honest and not use him for her selfish needs.

 

What is the difference between this situation and prostitution? Appparently in both cases we have a woman, or man as the case may be, that compromises her/himself for some temporary gain. It's really a lose/lose scenario the way it has been presented.

 

Atma, if your friend has no feeling and finds it perfectly acceptable to exploit and be exploited in such a 'merchant' fashion then she should proceed according to her understanding. The real issue isn't whether love is 'illusory'. The illusion is our misidentification with matter. We cannot divorce ourselves from our feelings. In the name of universal love (which until you are truly on that platform of realization is only mental ajustment) so many will become indifferent and cold calculating individuals? This is a bad policy and dishonest in the very least. We must have feelings and they should be progressive. They must move from selfishness to selflessness. Helping others in the beginning of development of a heart of compassion.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[animesh]

Audarya lila ji,

I do not agree with you. What is wrong if she wants money. Who does not want it? It is very easy to preach others that they should not give any importance to money. But so long a person is here on this Earth, (s)he needs money. Agreed that money is not everything but it is definitely useful. How do you expect a person who is having lots of financial problems to not to worry about money and be philosophical?

[animesh]

Atma's friend would do well to focus on spiritual awakening and then she would realize the 'she' doesn't need money, food, etc.

 

I am not against spiritual awakening but I do not agree that one does not need basic necessities. Suppose there is a person who does not have enough money to eat properly, who does not know how long (s)he can live in a house because the landlord can any day ask him/her to vaccate the house for not having paid rent, in whose family somebody is sick but can not be given proper medication because of shortage of money etc. etc. How do you expect such a person to think that money, food etc. are not important?

 

If she truly doesn't care for this person she should be honest and not use him for her selfish needs.

This person is much older than her. So, there is nothing surprising if she does not feel attachment for him. And it is wrong to assume that she is trying to use him for her selfish needs. Assuming that she really marries that person, then definitely she will take care of him even if she will be sad in her heart.

 

What is the difference between this situation and prostitution?

 

Lots. She is not doing anything illegal or immoral for her basic necessities.

 

Atma, if your friend has no feeling and finds it perfectly acceptable to exploit and be exploited in such a 'merchant' fashion then she should proceed according to her understanding.

It is wrong to assume that she wants to exploit and be exploited. If a person is having extreme financial problems, then it is very difficult for him/her to think in long terms. In such situations, people very easily let others exploit them but it does not mean that they wanted to be exploited. It is just that they could not take proper decision because of their immediate problems.

[JRdd]

Originally posted by shvu:

There however, exists a very important condition that the love is for her own child and not for all the children in the world. Tha father loves his child for the same condition too. "This child is my child". The condition, "mine" makes all the difference.

 

Cheers

Absolutely true, and I myself always saw this statement in this light; it is only obvious. But it gives some indication of the quality of unconditional love, as does any love (animals included) which involves selfless sacrifice.

 

Love from whatever level or degree it manifests--be it compassion for an injured bird, or charitable feelings, or parental or conjugal, is at least a starting point. I like M Scott Peck's the Road Less Traveled, A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth, wherein he (albeit, as he himself admits, a rough attempt) defines love as "the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or antoher's spiritual growth".

 

But there are many ways to look at love.

 

I love this discussion; it is very interesting, and useful too.

 

ys, JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by animesh:

The material world may be real or illusory based on one's perspectives. A person who is not at all afraid by problems in this life (no matter how severe they are) and who has realized his identity with Brahm will feel that this world is illusory. But for everyone else this world is very real. If somebody really has realized his oneness with Brahm, then he will himself understand this world to be an illusion; nobody needs to explain this to him. If we have to explain to somebody that the world is an illusion, this means that, for that person, it is real.

Then there is the perspective that this plane is as real as anything, being a small part of the vast (spiritual) world. That's why a self-realised soul can live anywhere, and even travel "between" worlds. For him/her there is no between (in that sense).

 

IMO, the solution to the situation posted by atma can never be found by knowing whether the world is real or not.

I agree. But it does seem to be opening up other useful points here.

 

JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by shvu:

 

There is a lot to be said for taking consolation in philosophy or religion. Friends of mine have suffered the unthinkable--their very young children suddenly and accidently leaving their bodies--and in both cases I witnessed how, in the beginning stages of their grief, they found consolation in considering philosophic points, such as that the soul is eternal, and religiously, like God is in control, God is our friend, etc. Over the course of time these ideas became more realized, and through this the idea that everything that happens, even such tragedies, is ultimately some kind of blessing has been seen as a reality. This involves faith, of course, same as one's commitment to another ideally involves faith of some kind. When one has faith this kind of self-talk travels far beyond mere parroting.

 

Back more directly to the subject at hand, one may argue about the nature of these parents' love, but whether one likes to regard it as illusory or not, conditional or not, their love ultimately brought them to a higher understanding. Feelings are there for a reason. Thus, I feel strong objections to one coldly calculating for convenience sake. Though I do understand, and with compassion, the desperation which leads one to consider such.

 

Who is this friend, Atma? Is there no way we can among us find a benefactor, or employer, who could help her get on her feet? Even our efforts would likely show her she is not alone.

 

JR

 

[animesh]

Who is this friend, Atma? Is there no way we can among us find a benefactor, or employer, who could help her get on her feet? Even our efforts would likely show her she is not alone.

 

I also wanted to ask this. I wanted to know the details as to where she lives, what she does for her living, who are her dependants (if any) and also more about this man. But I was not asking lest somebody should feel that I was interfering too much in somebody's personal matters. It is good that you asked this.

[shvu]

Spirituality is not for everyone.

 

It is a very minor group of people who are inclined towards spirituality or higher truths. For if it were not so, the human species would have gone extinct long back.

 

The majority of the people are worldly and use religion for moral support. They do their Puja, worship, chanting, etc but it is just part of their daily activity and not their aim. They want to make more money than they have, become famous and want to possess more wealth than the people around them or else simply want to cling onto whatever possessions/relationships they have without losing any of them [status quo]. God is worshipped with the belief that he will grant them their wishes. Such people have no confusions. There are some [very very few = 0?] who have renounced everything(*) and have taken to spiritual life. They are not confused either.

 

There are some who are hanging in between. They are unsure about how much of importance to give towards spirtuality and wordly life. On one hand they are aware that they should have no wordly desires to progress spiritually. Yet to give it all up is painful and scary. They are the confused ones, who have failed to draw a clear line between the two. They are the ones who are kidding themselves, who mistakenly think that they are spiritual. The point is, be clear about what you want in life. And once you are clear, give it your best. Half-hearted spirtuality or half-hearted materialism is useless.

 

* Everything - Not just worldly possessions, but also anger, hatred, envy, fear and the like which are infinitely more diffcult to get rid of.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-06-2001).]

[Guest guest]

The solution to all problems is ultimately Sri Hari Himself.

 

In this world, or

In any other,

In every situation,

Hari is the refuge.

In pain and loss

in sin and in fear,

in the obtainment of the object of desire,

in anger towards other bhaktas-

in the absence of devotion,

in conflict with bhaktas-

in the powerless state,

as well as in the position of power-

in every condition remember that

Hari is the refuge.

 

(From Srimad Vallabhacarya's WISDOM, PERSEVERANCE AND REFUGE - Viveka-Dhairaya-Ashraya)

 

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

The solution to all problems is ultimately spiritual. Material solutions will bring more problems along with solving - it is an endless cycle.

I agree. One remains on the temporal plane, and becomes even more entangled and thus gets further away from his/her spiritual beingness the more one seeks material solutions.

 

This, however, can be easily said, whereas one who is not fully self-realised may not be up to the challenges of seeing beyond the immediate dire situation. I recall the lower planets as being so difficult that the people there can not even consider spiritual awakening, so caught up are they in their circumstances. Of course even on this planet we have seen hellish conditions such as starvation, and it takes a very rare person to be at peace with this condition and see transcendentally.

 

I knew a Gujerati family in England who said they were so poor while living in Africa that they used to go eat at the Christian mission. The Christians fed the poor Asians, and converted many in this way.

 

So how will Atma's friend come to this level of understanding? Or for that matter any of us? We have to start from where we are and progress accordingly being fully honest and not falsely jumping ahead. A good beginning is to learn to respect all others and try not to exploit others for our own personal needs.

This is a great point. This would be a leap of faith. I have repeatedly seen where people I know have done the opposite, have compromised themselves for some temporary solution or gain, only to find themselves facing the same dilemmas repeatedly, and although for some short time they seem to be moving somewhere, or making some change for the better, over the long term they are in the same place they started. Truly a lose/lose situation as you say. They become caught in a mode of operation which does nothing for healthy self-esteem or confidence in the universe, God, etc. thus the world remains a frightening place. Intense prayer may be needed to make such a leap of faith.

 

 

The real issue isn't whether love is 'illusory'. The illusion is our misidentification with matter. We cannot divorce ourselves from our feelings. In the name of universal love (which until you are truly on that platform of realization is only mental ajustment) so many will become indifferent and cold calculating individuals?

Oh boy, this brings up sad memories. Imagine having the ring tossed at you with a smirk toward his friend moments after you have been declared married. Imagine being told that the reason he marrried you was because he found it difficult to remain celibate due to being approached by women while delivering paintings door to door. In other words, imagine finding out there is no love in the marriage.

 

We must have feelings and they should be progressive. They must move from selfishness to selflessness. Helping others in the beginning of development of a heart of compassion.

These are beautiful thoughts, and fit in with M Scott Peck's definition of love.

 

ys, JR

 

 

[JRdd]

Originally posted by shvu:

Spirituality is not for everyone.

This is true. I am assuming, though I may be wrong, that Atma's friend is on some spiritual path. I agree that for the most part religious institutions are used for ones economic and moral support and even for the sake of appearing as a pious or religious person. god is the order-supplier.

 

I don't agree that the categories you have defined are so black and white though. Three distinct categories? The honest materialists, and fully renounced, and the confused ones in between? It is unfair to say that people who are seeking enlightenment are confused simply because they are not fully there. For many, progress is gradual. Very rarely is enlightenment instant. For many, spiritual evolvement includes learning the art of balancing being in this world and yet not of this world. Some may be kidding themselves about their particular level of enlightenment but not all of them necessarily are.

 

 

The point is, be clear about what you want in life. And once you are clear, give it your best.

Absolutely.

 

Cheers too.

JR

[Audarya lila]

Dear Animesh,

 

My point at the beginning of my last post was a philosophical point meant to address the idea that our problems (any problem) can be solved by material adjustment. From a spiritual perspective our 'problem' is misidentification of self with matter. The soul needs neither money or food.

 

On a practical level we know only as much about this situation as the information Atma has provided allows us. She asked the question at the start of this thread 'if material love is illusory.....' This is using a philophical point to justify doing what is morally and ethically wrong. If anyone wants to progress toward spiritual attainment they will first have to come to the platform of goodness - this cannot be bypassed. We must honestly endeavor for progress. The very question was posed in philosophical terms which to me indicates that the friend has some spiritual inclination - this cannot be discounted. The answer to her particular dilemna must be sought after with some consideration as to what is most beneficial to her spiritually.

 

I am not discounting her material discomfort at all. But I am assuming that she also has some higher consideration. Material life in general (this goes for all of us whether we realize it or not) is characterized by Krsna as dukalayam asasvatam - miserable and temporary. Material prosperity may look attractive from one perspective, but from another it can be seen as an even more 'miserable' condition. Why? Krsna has explained it is temporary. You will lose it. We will all lose whatever comfortable position we have. We cannot avoid it. So who can say how miserable this is? To have something and be attached to it - but ultimately we will lose it.

 

So I believe that if she is suffering materially she should try to alleviate this suffering as we all would, but she should also consider the consequences of her actions both on herself and others. We should strive to be morally upright. The way I have understood the situation - I would feel used if I were the old man. That's my perspective from the way Atma has presented this case. Given that, I also feel that Atma's friend cannot act in this way without some negative impact on her and this man.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[dasanudas]

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and ALL things will be added unto you" Or water the root of the problem and the branches will automaticly be nourished. As Aurdarya and Jayaradhe are clearly expressing. If we approach it from the other opposite angle dissatisfaction can still remain like Howard Hughes who had all the material wealth one could desire, but still died a very empty recluse taking shelter in drugs.

God loves us! if we give our attention to Him, in innumerable ways we will be consoled for whatever lack we may imagine we have. In attaining a devotional heart all our needs will automaticy be adjusted by divine arrangement.

And on top of that the lonely old man may also find the True friend that we all need.

All the great Vaisnavas in our line have drawn the Grace of Sri Laksmi Devi and more not thru courting material prosperity but in going to the centre of all wealth- material and spiritual, and then that centre reciprocates in kind. Have faith it works.

I might say also if she already has a devotional heart then she can truly help relieve or fill the void of this old persons life, and if his motives are sincere he will help her material predicament. I've seen old people give everything, if they recognize even a glint of real spontaneous affection, I've also seen them donate their fortunes to animal welfare movements because they've lost faith in the human exploitative tendancy.

[atma]

Thank you for all the feedback. The interesting part here is that the persons that know her personally told her to go ahead and go for it! I guess because they see her material situation like kind of hopeless at the moment.

She is not a Hare Krishna even though she is spiritual and with a heart of gold. Let's see how the situation develop.

Very nice from JRdd and Animesh to offer help, that was very touching. Thank you!!

Personally, I'm really into feelings and emotions, that's why I'm so entangle in this world but I won't judge her because who am I to throw the first stone? Sometimes circunstances make us choose things that seem wrong but in the long run, who knows, could be the best for her spiritual growth. Until she finally surrender to the Supreme Lord, like all of us must do to achieve happiness.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by leyh:

Dear Bhakthavasya:

You state that it would be more correct to say that:"there is no love in material consciousness, but for those who are cultivating a spiritual life, spiritual consciousness, there is indeed love between 2 humans."Does this mean that those who do not engage in spiritual practice do not know how to love? There are many non-spiritual practioners and even atheists who I'm sure have done selfless and compassionate things for people that they've felt love for.

Maybe it would be more corrrect to say that the completition and perfextion of love is achieved through spiritual practice. I feel that it seems inaccurate to say that love can only be manifested by spiritual cultivators.Yours Very Sincerely.

 

 

Dear Leyh; Right you are, thank you for pointing that out (the implication that only those 'cultivating a spiritual life' are capable of loving. In retrospect, the opposite effect has often been the case, proving that it is very poosible to remain in 'material consciousness' while being a spiritual practitioner. Likewise, even atheists and non-practioners of any religion or path have, as you say, performed acts of great compassion and selflessness because of love for another being or for humankind (and sometimes just because it's the right thing to do). Gaura-bhakta-vrnda!

 

 

[dubeyrakesh]

Originally posted by animesh:

Is it a must that we should find the answer to this question in shastras only? Can't we use our experience?

I think all the religious scholars (and novices like me) in this forum agree (or at least believe) that the Shashtras/Vedas are the ultimate destination of any knowledge that has ever been or will ever be gained by mankind.

 

Thanks,

Rakesh Dubey.

 

[animesh]

Atma wrote:

The interesting part here is that the persons that know her personally told her to go ahead and go for it! I guess because they see her material situation like kind of hopeless at the moment.

 

I also would like her to be financially well but I would not suggest her to go for it. This will be a temporary help which will bring regret latter on. You have not provided much about this man so I can not say anything about him. But I do not think that he is really concerned about her (though I may be wrong). When I was in school (I think I was in 5th std.), I read a story. I will write that in my next post.

[animesh]

So here goes the story (it is not verbatim because I do not remember the exact words): -

 

Once upon a time there was a king. He had a very beautiful and lovely daughter. One day the princess caught some skin disease. Her beauty started fading. All the physicians in the king's court tried their best but could not cure her. Then the king made an announcement that whoever would cure the princess of her disease would be married to her. Hearing this, many physicians from all over the kingdom came to try their luck but did not succeed. The king lost all hope. Then one evening one sage came to meet the king. He was an expert in herbal medicines. Even though the king was not hopeful, he allowed the sage to try. The sage was provided a room to stay. Everyday the sage used to give the princess various medicines. After a few weeks, the princess came to the king. She was extremely happy. The reason was obvious. She had been cured. Her old beauty had come back. The king, the queen, the princess and many others went to the sage's room to express their gratitude. The sage was not there. Instead, there was a letter. In the letter, it was written: -

"O King! I am very happy that my knowledge could give happiness to someone. I did not mean to insult you by leaving without seeking your permission. But I had to leave because of the prize announced by you. How do you expect your daughter to be happy with an old man like me? Please marry her to some brave and virtuous prince. My blessings are always with her."