Vaikuntha to Krishnaloka-movin' on up

[Maitreya]

From the above statement it is found that a devotee is not after any of the stages of liberation. There are five stages of liberation, already explained as being (1) to become one with the Lord, (2) to live on the same planet as the Lord, (3) to obtain the same bodily features as the Lord, (4) to have the same opulences as the Lord and (5) to have constant association with the Lord. Out of these five liberated stages, the one which is known as säyujya, or to merge into the existence of the Lord, is the last to be accepted by a devotee. The other four liberations, although not desired by devotees, still are not against the devotional ideals. Some of the liberated persons who have achieved these four stages of liberation may also develop affection for Krsna and be promoted to the Goloka Vrndävana planet in the spiritual sky. In other words, those who are already promoted to the Vaikuntha planets and who possess the four kinds of liberation may also sometimes develop affection for Krsna and become promoted to Krsnaloka.

So those who are in the four liberated states may still be going through different stages of existence. In the beginning they may want the opulences of Krsna, but at the mature stage the dormant love for Krsna exhibited in Vrndävana becomes prominent in their hearts. As such, the pure devotees never accept the liberation of säyujya, to become one with the Supreme, though sometimes they may accept as favorable the other four liberated states.NOD ch.4

This question came up on another thread and I can't find it again.I also forgot who first raised it.Brain fog.Anyway, I find it interesting that the soul can still develop in the way described above.

 

It also brings another question to mind.If the soul begins it's journey from the Brahman,some turning to matter to exploit, others turning to spirit to serve,then doesn't that suggest that all those souls that initialy choose spiritual life entered Vaikuntha first, with some heading on to Goloka by first passing through Vaikuntha?

 

YS MC

[JRdd]

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

It also brings another question to mind.If the soul begins it's journey from the Brahman,some turning to matter to exploit, others turning to spirit to serve,then doesn't that suggest that all those souls that initialy choose spiritual life entered Vaikuntha first, with some heading on to Goloka by first passing through Vaikuntha?

 

YS MC

1.1 Brahman is not a place. The soul does not begin its journey "from Brahman". The soul itself is qualitatively of Brahman - "aham brahmasmi".

 

1.2 There is no Brahman independent of Krishna. Brahman is a state of being in conscious relationship with Krishna (noting there are different types and levels of relationship).

 

2 Your question appears to be predicated on some nexus between Vaikuntha and Krishnaloka. Well, did Radha evolve from Vaikuntha or is she always in Vindiraban? Even before Krishna came to Vindiraban Radha was already there. Or is there some argument that immediately before Her association with the Lord in Vindiraban She must have been in Vaikuntha according to some heirarchical progression from Vaikuntha to Vindiraban? The concept of Radha in Vaikuntha seems most repugnant as well as the idea that Vaikuntha is a progressive stepping stone to Vindiraban.

 

If one chooses to do so, I feel that these curious conundrums may be avoided by leaving consideration of Vaikuntha to the Vaishnavas and focussing on the feet of the Devotee of Krishna.

 

There are many great Vaishnava devotees of Krishna AND there are also many great Devotees of Krishna who would not necessarily consider themselves Vaishnavas.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by talasiga:

1.1 Brahman is not a place. The soul does not begin its journey "from Brahman". The soul itself is qualitatively of Brahman - "aham brahmasmi".

 

talasiga, thanks for your response.You said:"Brahman is not a place".I think I know what you mean,I wasn't trying to localize the all pervading.We could also say all places are Brahman.

 

Please consider the following statements from Srila Prabhupada's purports concerning jiva and the brahmajyoti.

 

 

 

So it is clear that jiva's ARE generated from the Brahman.Of course jiva's are brahman in nature.

 

 

1.2 There is no Brahman independent of Krishna. Brahman is a state of being in conscious relationship with Krishna (noting there are different types and levels of relationship).

 

No thing or no one is independent of Krishna.What of the impersonalists merging into the Brahman, sayujya?Are they conscious of their relationship?

 

2 Your question appears to be predicated on some nexus between Vaikuntha and Krishnaloka. Well, did Radha evolve from Vaikuntha or is she always in Vindiraban? Even before Krishna came to Vindiraban Radha was already there. Or is there some argument that immediately before Her association with the Lord in Vindiraban She must have been in Vaikuntha according to some heirarchical progression from Vaikuntha to Vindiraban? The concept of Radha in Vaikuntha seems most repugnant as well as the idea that Vaikuntha is a progressive stepping stone to Vindiraban.

 

There is a connection between Krishnaloka and Vaikuntha, they are on the absolute plane.There is variety also.

 

Why bring Radha into this?She is not jiva shakti.

If one chooses to do so, I feel that these curious conundrums may be avoided by leaving consideration of Vaikuntha to the Vaishnavas and focussing on the feet of the Devotee of Krishna.

 

"I feel"Yes we may have so many feelings but what are they based on is the question?

So you are sugesting that one should not be inquisitive about the spiritual world unless he is a Vaisnava?I disagree.It is by cultivating intense interest and eagerness to know this subject matter from the Vaisnavas that one becomes a Vaisnava.

 

Yes it is good to focus on the feet of the Vaisnava.But they are also writing volumns of books on this subject matter and I take it from that they want us to read those books and discuss them.

 

There are many great Vaishnava devotees of Krishna AND there are also many great Devotees of Krishna who would not necessarily consider themselves Vaishnavas.

 

Vaisnava refers to an awakened active soul who is cognizant of his own position in relation to the Supreme Absolute.It is not a name for another religious 'faith'that one can join and quit.

 

We can see how the jiva travels in the material world through samsara as he tries to enjoy.

 

Not all jivas enter the material cloud.

 

My question just goes to the opposite direction concerning how the jiva becomes attracted to Krishna from the Brahman and Vaikuntha loka.

 

Just curious.

 

Hare Krishna

YS MC

 

[shvu]

 

My question just goes to the opposite direction concerning how the jiva becomes attracted to Krishna from the Brahman and Vaikuntha loka. Just curious.

To put it simply, it does not happen in either case.

 

First case: There is no indivdual jiva left over afer liberation. Everything is Brahman without diivsion. So the question does not arise.

 

second case: A Jiva attains Vaikunta after liberation and seeks nothing more as that is the ultimate destination. The question does not arise here either.

 

Vaisnava...It is not a name for another religious 'faith'that one can join and quit.

With due respect, that is just what it is.

 

Vaishnava is a term for one who worships Vishnu just as Shaiva means a worshipper of Shiva and Shakta means a worshipper of the mother goddess [shakti]. These were/are the 3 prominent divisons of Hinduism and that is how these labels came about. Everything else said about these labels is poetry.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

My question just goes to the opposite direction concerning how the jiva becomes attracted to Krishna from the Brahman and Vaikuntha loka.

 

So, that Krsna is something different than Brahman and Vaikuntha-loka. Sruti states; idam sarvam brahman - 'Everything is Brahman.' By your reasoning Krsna is a non-existent substance or there are two different Brahmans one attracts jivas and other repels them. Or alternatively, Vaisnava jivas are attracted by Krsna Brahman and non-Vaisnavas jivas are attracted by ordinary Brahman. These thesis are against the fore mentioned sruti mantra. According sruti your question is a non-sense.

 

 

[shvu]

Maitreya,

 

A word does not have a personal meaning and a separate impersonal meaning.

 

Vaishnava has meant worshipper of Vishnu (in various forms), for thousands of years to all people (including impersonalists). As an example, a christian means one who believes in Jesus as the eternal savior, period. Some poetic christian may say the label christian indicates one who in the normal,eternal and natural condition, function and devotional characteristics of all individual souls in relation to Christ, the Supreme, the All-pervading Soul." But the basic meaning remains unchanged. You can opt for a fancy definition if you choose to. I personally prefer a concise one.

 

A christian can become a vaishnava, then a Shaiva, a muslim and then a christian again.

 

You seem to be saying that their is no distiction between Krishna and His effulgence

Excuse me for entering into this, but what has Brahman got to do with Krishna's effulgence?

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Satyaraja, I can't understand what you are saying in your post.Sorry.You seem to be saying that their is no distiction between Krishna and His effulgence.I see oneness and distinction.

 

According Srimad Bhagavata, the Absolute Truth is a non-dual substance. That non-dual substance may be realized by the seers in three different aspects: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.

 

So, it is not that the Absolute Truth changes. It has no changes at all. The difference is made by the seers, but the substance is the same, non-dual and absolute.

 

Distinctions such as differences between Krsna and His effulgence are not Absolute. They are theological point of views, that may be present in different darsanas as different point of views, that are all relative according personal realizations. You say that you see oneness and distinction simultaneously, but other vaisnava-darsanas do not agree with that, they see only distinction or only oneness. No matter, they are only relative viewpoints of the Absolute.

 

[kailasa]

The soul travels from the spiritual world. She(it) brahman always, but also be in a friendly atmosphere brahman sometimes too can. Simply some have dropped out last time from brahman (not Maitreya Prabhu), therefore they are so sure that it and there is their primary Condition.

 

> 1.2 There is no Brahman independent of Krishna. Brahman is a state of being in conscious relationship with Krishna (noting there are different types and levels of relationship).

 

Completely agree.

 

> Even before Krishna came to Vindiraban Radha was already there.

 

And where was Krishna ? On Vaikuntha ? Has lost the way? Radha probably has given it(him) slightly prasad, what it(he) would not cry? Excuse me, it I not to you. Simply some so quickly develop in spiritual essence, that difficultly it happens to understand them. Therefore that also speak realize for the beginning even Vaikuntha , or do not preach beginning raised things if to assume that all this is realized. In the material world everyone sing - sacti, sacti, it is more sacti, all to not wean in any way. Maximum sense what to serve Krishna .

 

The soul rising from the material world, realizes Vaikuntha and then Goloka, she(it) can not reach(achieve) Goloka passing all other plans of spiritual life.

 

It is not necessary To occur at first on Vaikuntha , and then on Goloka, but also so act(arrive) she(it) can, the spiritual world is freedom. The devoted Lord Caytanya travel and on Vaikuntha to preach. They strengthen dasya race Vaikuntha repeatedly.

 

Sometimes Goloka refers to as Vaikuntha . Is as maha Vaikuntha , where worship Radha Krishna yours faithfully.In maximum sense all this reflection Goloka . But the spiritual world is expansion the Lord Balaram, in the other case many from games would be not possible(probable). While some devoted I shall not understand for the beginning it, they should worship Lord Balaram, confusing It(him) with Krishna . To get to Krishna not so it is easy, is especial if to deviate.

[Maitreya]

Originally posted by kailasa:

 

The devoted Lord Caytanya travel and on Vaikuntha to preach. They strengthen dasya race Vaikuntha repeatedly.

 

 

kailasa,

 

I find this very interesting.Are you saying that Lord Caitanya or His devotees travel in Vaikuntha to increase the realizations of the residents there to more intimate levels?

 

 

[kailasa]

One who sees the Supersoul equally present everywhere, in every living being, does not degrade himself by his mind. Thus he approaches the transcendental destination.

 

One who sees the Supersoul accompanying the individual soul in all bodies, and who understands that neither the soul nor the Supersoul within the destructible body is ever destroyed, actually sees.

 

Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer, who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the Supersoul.

 

Although the Supersoul appears to be divided among all beings, He is never divided. He is situated as one. Although He is the maintainer of every living entity, it is to be understood that He devours and develops all.

 

Thus the field of activities [the body], knowledge and the knowable have been summarily described by Me. Only My devotees can understand this thoroughly and thus attain to My nature.

 

Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.

 

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krisna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

[Bhakta Shakta]

Every jiva has an eternal svarupa (transcendental personality) associated with it. However, I don't see how this places a spiritual-bar on a perfected sadhaka of the spiritual world (Vaikunthaloka) from taking birth for the 'first time' in Gokula. Why wouldn't Krishna allow the jiva to experience liberation (spiritual world, not Brahman) just as Krishna allows jivas to experience maya, with the free-will to serve or not serve Him. This would make sense with an youthful blue boy who expands himself in various infinite forms for the sake of sportive-play.

 

In one of Sanatana Goswami's works, there is a story of how he travels from different spiritual worlds and finally arrives at Vrindaban to meet Gopala his eternal playmate. If someone could post something on this I would appreciate it.

 

-Bhakta Shakta

[kailasa]

All probably is possible, but all races at one level. Advaita Acaria participates in games the Lord Caitanya, Maha Visnu wanted to see Krisna and Ardjuna. As the inhabitants Vaikuntha can on time plunge into other race, but later return to the natural rule(situation),The aspiration to greatness again will begin to prevail, Or rise above. Certainly they will not perceive Krisna as God, it(him) so in general a little who perceives, even such pandit as Sivu , their God it Lord Narayana, actually for gopi as, in this sense Narayana the God, and all of us argue . Krisna enjoys, it(he) operates nothing. Lord Narayana This seen display of a part of His(its) power. When Krisna has shown all Ardjuna, Ardjuna was completely shaken.

 

A little more.

 

Lord Ananta’s arms are attractively long, beautifully decorated with bangles and completely spiritual. They are white, and so they appear like silver columns. When the beautiful princesses of the serpent kings, hoping for the Lord’s auspicious blessing, smear His arms with aguru pulp, sandalwood pulp and kuìkuma, the touch of His limbs awakens lusty desires within them. Understanding their minds, the Lord looks at the princesses with a merciful smile, and they become bashful, realizing that He knows their desires. Then they smile beautifully and look upon the Lord’s lotus face, which is beautified by reddish eyes rolling slightly from intoxication and delighted by love for His devotees.

[Bhakta Shakta]

I think this verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu would be appropriate:

Until the ghost-like desires for bhukti (material enjoyment), jnana (knowledge), and mukti (liberation) disappear from the heart; Krsna-prema cannot manifest.

[Maitreya]

shvu,

 

I understand that would be your definition of a vaisnava as you are coming from an impersonalistic perspective.

 

Here is where I get my definition.

From Vaisnavism by Thakur Bhaktivinode:

 

REAL VAISHNAVISM: The word 'Vaishnavism' indicates the normal,eternal and natural condition, function and devotional characteristics of all individual souls in relation to Vishnu, the Supreme, the All-pervading Soul.

So this is the definition I will stick with.

 

Satyaraja, I can't understand what you are saying in your post.Sorry.You seem to be saying that their is no distiction between Krishna and His effulgence.I see oneness and distinction.

 

Perhaps shvu had won you over to his side afterall.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

[talasiga]

"What of the impersonalists merging into the Brahman, sayujya?Are they conscious of their relationship?"

 

Maitreya, the so-called impersonalists are said to merge into the Brahmajyoti. Now, Sanskrit is a semantically rich but very exact language in terms of word construct and there is a critical difference between the Brahman and the Brahmajyoti. One is the Supreme and the corollary state of being and the other is the effulgence of the Supreme. (It is a bit like Jesus and his halo - the halo emanates from Him, is separate to Him but is NOT independent of Him.)

 

The impersonalist merged in the Light is not in that state of Being known as Brahman because of absence of conscious relationship noting that relationship requires distinction, and in this discussion, recognition of Self as distinct from an Other.

 

At Chapter 3 of the Nectar of Devotion, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami (Prabhupad) says, "Without being elevated to the postion of a [jnani], or wise man, one cannot stick to the principle of worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead. ......a wise man who seeks [Krishna] knows perfectly well that he is spirit soul, or Brahman, and [Krishna] is the supreme spirit soul, or Parabrahman."

If you posit that Brahman means merging in the Brahmajyoti, how could that impersonal merging be the necessary platform for the abiding worship of Krishna that Prabhupad is talking about?

 

"There is a connection between Krishnaloka and Vaikuntha, they are on the absolute plane."

 

Maitreya, yes, they are said to be both on the absolute plane but that is not a nexus that is meaningful to the Devotee of Krishna.

 

The Devotee does not equate Vaikuntha with Krishnaloka nor consider them on an equal plane (if indeed a Devotee of Krishna ever considers Vaikuntha at all). Such equations are anaethema to them and the scholars among them consider such equations as rasabhasa. Generally speaking, the Devotee of Krishna has little interest in Vaikuntha.

 

 

"Why bring Radha into this?"

 

Maitreya, Radha is the ultimate Gopi, the ultimate Pure Devotee of Krishna. She is most relevant to any question on devotion and Krishna, as are the other Gopis.

 

At Chapter 30 of the The Teachings of Lord Chaitanya (The Golden Avatar), Prabhupad says, "No common man can understand the ecstasy of transcendental love between [Radha and Krishna], nor can he understand the transcendental flavor of the transcendental love between [Krishna and the gopis]. Yet if one tries to follow in the footsteps of the [gopis], he may become situated in the highest stage of transcendental love."

 

"So you are sugesting that one should not be inquisitive about the spiritual world unless he is a Vaisnava?"

 

No Maitreya, not at all. Quite the opposite, I am suggesting that one need not be a "Vaishnava" to make spiritual enquiry into devotion to Krishna. In fact I would go so far as to suggest that in some cases Vaishnava scholasticism may be an obstruction to Krishna Bhakti and uncluttered spiritual enquiry. I say this with the qualification that we must distinguish between Vaishnavas and Vaishnava Devotees of Krishna and between scholastic epistemology and the epistemology of the Bhaktas.

 

"Yes it is good to focus on the feet of the Vaisnava.But they are also writing volumns of books on this subject matter and I take it from that they want us to read those books and discuss them."

 

Maitreya, what did Radhika write? What book by Lord Chaitanya?

 

But please dont get me wrong - do read books if it heightens your devotion but dont let the books block out the Feet. (and the Feet must be of a Devotee of Krishna first and other qualifications come after).

 

 

"Vaisnava refers to an awakened active soul who is cognizant of his own position in relation to the Supreme Absolute."

 

Maitreya, I do note you have a delightfully broad definition of Vaishnava comprising these elements:-

1. awakened state of

2. a soul

3. recognising relationship with God.

 

This is the very state of Being that is known as Brahman.

 

Kindest Regards

Thank you for your charity in discussing with me.

 

[shvu]

 

Until the ghost-like desires for bhukti (material enjoyment), jnana (knowledge), and mukti (liberation) disappear from the heart; Krsna-prema cannot manifest.

What about the desire for Krishna-prema? Is it allright to retain that one desire because it is not "ghost-like"?

 

Just curious.

 

Cheers

 

[dasanudas]

Here is a small excert from Sanatans Goswamis Brhad Bhagavamrtam as requested.To get the full picture one must read this transcendental jewel systamaticly as it describes all the levels of God realization.I will try to post some further chapters to express these progressive steps to divinity. Here it is starting from Maha devs glorification of the residents of Vaikuntha. Mind you it is difficult to single out small parts of whole.

 

42 O best of Lord Krishna's associates, don't think I am the object of His mercy. Know that the residents of Vaikuntha are the actual objects of His very great mercy.

43 Renouncing everything material as if it were only a clump of grass, with great devotion they worship their beloved Lord Krishna. If all material benefits and yogic perfections come before them, they will not look at them, even from the corner of their eye.

44 They who are free of all pride may go to that realm of Vaikuntha, which is beyond the three modes of material nature, free of all fear, eternal and full of transcendental knowledge and bliss.

45 Their forms already eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, the devotees there do not worship Lord Krishna to attain eternity, knowledge, bliss or opulence equal to His.

46 Happy with devotional service to the Lord, protecting the devotees and preaching devotional service, they travel as they wish.

47 As, in the forms of birds, trees, and other creatures, They eternally serve the Supreme Lord in many ways in the realm of Vaikuntha, they seem to mock the souls merged in impersonal liberation.

48 They gaze at the delightful Supreme Lord Hari, whose lotus feet are massaged by the goddess of fortune. They enjoy blissful pastimes in His company.

49 The great glory of Lord Krishna's mercy is eternally granted to the residents of Vaikunthaloka. Where else may that mercy be placed?

50 In that place is only a wonderful, blissful, eternal flowing stream of pure love for the Lord and sankirtana and a host of devotional activities. In that place there is not anything other than this.

51 Ah! The happiness of impersonal Brahman does not equal a very small portion of half a drop of the great wonder that is the glory of that nectar ocean of the bliss of pure devotion.

52 Vaikuntha, its residents, and everything within it are the greatest object of the transcendental love and mercy of Lord Krishna's lotus feet.

53 The glory of the opulent residents of Vaikuntha, who are all the objects of Lord Krishna's mercy, is much greater than any glory I may possess. How will it be possible for me to describe their glory?

61 Because they drink the nectar of pure devotional service to Lord Krishna, and because they thus forget everything of the material body and the great host of things in relation to it, they have forms of eternity, knowledge and bliss, even while they stay in bodies made of material elements.

62 They patiently wait for the time when they will enter Vaikuntha to enjoy transcendental pastimes with the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

63 The devotees I have described are all my superiors. They are very dear to Lord Krishna. They are the special object of His mercy.

64 Sri Parvati said: Of these devotees Laksmi-devi is the most dear to Lord Hari. She is the queen of Vaikuntha and its residents.

65 By her sidelong glance one may attain powers and opulences like the demigods who rule the various planets. By her mercy one may attain perfect knowledge, renunciation, and devotional service.

66 Even though many sages like yourself worship her with great reverence, she ignores you all, and chooses her beloved Lord Narayana instead. Even though Narayana is indifferent to her, she worships Him and performs severe austerities to please Him.

67 She eternally resides on His handsome chest. A faithful wife, she follows her husband in all His incarnations.

68-9 Sri Pariksit said: His heart trembling with great happiness, Narada Muni called out, "O husband of Laksmi, glory to You! O master of Vaikuntha, O Lord Hari, glory to You! O realm of Vaikuntha, glory to you! O residents of Vaikuntha, glory to you! O Laksmi, O beloved of Lord Krishna, O queen of Vaikuntha, glory to you!"

70 Narada rose to go to Vaikuntha and meet Laksmi. Understanding his plan, Shiva took his hand, stopped him, and said:

71 Sri Shiva said: "O sage whose memory is defeated by the wish to meet Lord Krishna's beloved, do you not remember that the Lord now lives in Dvaraka on the earth?"

72 Lord Krishna is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead and Rukmini is the goddess of fortune, Maha-Laksmi, whose plenary portions are the consorts of Lord Vamana and the other incarnations of the Lord.

73 Rukmini, the original goddess of fortune, eternally serves the two lotus feet of Lord Krishna, the original Personality of Godhead.

74 O brahmana, sit down, and I will whisper a great secret in your ear. Please listen with great faith.

75 Prahlad, whose fame as a great devotee is spread throughout the entire universe, is more dear to Lord Krishna than your father, than me, than Garuda, and all the other devotees, and even than the goddess of fortune herself.

76 Have you forgotten the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Do you not remember this verse in the Puranas (Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.64):

77 "O best of the brahmanas, without saintly persons for whom I am the only destination, I do not desire to enjoy My transcendental bliss and My supreme opulences."

78 Neither I, all the demigods, or even His own transcendental forms are as pleasing to Him as His dear devotees. Who can properly glorify the devotees?

 

Another excerpt further on, continuing with Hanuman in Ayodya. I wish I could post it all but it would take up a lot of space.

 

89 Sri Hanuman said: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Lord overwhelmed with love for Your devotees, O Lord whose transcendental activities attract your devotees' hearts, this is the way You act.

90 It is my great good fortune that in the middle of the sons of Kunti (the Pandavas) is my dear younger brother Bhimasena.

91 Out of kindness and friendship the Lord gave His own sister in marriage to Arjuna, who carries a flag whose insignia is a likeness of me.

92 Without the transcendental mercy of they who are very dear to the Lord, the loving service of the Lord's servants will not be successful. That service will not bear any good fruit.

93 O best of the devotees, O most dear favourite of the Lord, let us go there to see them.

94-5 The transcendental opulence, sweetness, and wonder that is very difficult for Brahma, Shiva and the other demigods to understand, that increases the love of the devotees, and that had not been revealed when the Lord appeared in Ayodhya, is now displayed in Mathura and Dvaraka.

96 Sri Narada said: This sweetness and opulence is not manifested even in Vaikuntha, what to speak of Ayodhya. Rise! Rise! Friend, let us quickly go there.

97 At that moment Hanuman became as grave as the ocean. He reflected within himself for a moment, sighed, bowed down, and then said to Narada:

98 Sri Hanuman said: It is right for us to go to see and serve the most dear devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

99 The sweetness of great mercy the Lord displays now is greater and more profound than what He had shown in the past.

100 The supremely charming and wonderful waves of the Lord's present transcendental pastimes have bewildered even the most learned and intelligent of the sages.

101 Even Brahma, the father of you and your exalted brothers, the grandfather of all the worlds, and the original teacher of the Vedas, is bewildered by these pastimes.

102 If even he becomes bewildered, then what can be said about unintelligent monkeys like myself. You can easily understand the Lord's activities, but I fear I will commit an offense.

103 The Lord's wonderful transcendental pastimes increase the love and devotion of the devotees. These pastimes are the final destination of they who repose all their love in the Lord alone and in no one else.

104-8 I pray that for Lord Ramacandra, whose heart is naturally soft with sincere compassion, who is honest and righteous, who has taken a vow to accept only one wife, whose face and eyes are always bowed down with great humility and shyness, whose good character delights the world, who is the monarch of Ayodhya City, who is the greatest of all kings, who is served by Sita and Laksmana, who is the elder brother of Bharata, who is the dear friend of Sugriva, who is the ruler of the monkeys, who is the shelter of Vibhisana, who holds a bow in His hand, who is the son of Dasaratha and Kausalya, and who is the great king of the Raghu dynasty, may my devotional love always increase.

109 I shall simply stay here, gaze at the Deity form of Lord Rama, and drink the nectar of His pastimes.

110-1 When Lord (Krishna), out of His great mercy, may call me to give me the great transcendental happiness of the opportunity to serve Him, will He, out of love for me, show me the form (of Lord Rama) that is more dear to me than life?

112-3 When the Lord reveals Himself as Ramacandra I shall go to Him at once. Now you please go to the Pandavas, and in their palace see the Supreme Brahman, whose transcendental form is like that of a human being, who is full of transcendental bliss, who is beyond the touch of the words and thoughts of the sages, who is very charming and who is a great jewel mine of the sweetnesses of wonderful transcendental pastimes.

 

 

.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Here is a small excert from Sanatans Goswamis Brhad Bhagavamrtam as requested.To get the full picture one must read this transcendental jewel systamaticly as it describes all the levels of God realization.I will try to post some further chapters to express these progressive steps to divinity. Here it is starting from Maha devs glorification of the residents of Vaikuntha. Mind you it is difficult to single out small parts of whole.

 

.

The complete Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrtam is at the Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library site here:

 

Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrtam

[Bhakta Shakta]

Posted by Shvu

What about the desire for Krishna-prema? Is it allright to retain that one desire because it is not "ghost-like"?

 

Just curious.

 

Cheers

 

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is a scientific study of devotional service. The adjective 'ghost-like' is used because the desires for bhukti, jnana, and mukti can trap a person within their grips just as a ghost can possess a body. The word ghost-like is not an insult put on material desires but is used as a qualitative in an analogy.

 

-Bs

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Shakta (edited 06-18-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

The complete Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrtam is at the Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library site here:

 

Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrtam

Pheww that saves some posting. It's much better read complete.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Pheww that saves some posting. It's much better read complete.

I havn't finished adding forward buttons at the end of each chapter for easier navigation thru the book, but it is still in an excellent format for printing out hard copies and binding.

 

I'll also add navigation buttons to Sri Gaudiya Kanthahara in the very near future. Just now coming......

[kailasa]

Devoted involve(attract) all attitudes(relations), allocation that that one it either material, or the person already has established the eternal attitudes(relations), that as means knowledge all.

Bhagavatam describes all mutual relation consistently, there can be here all have passed all this? Can be better study all this consistently, that it would be impossible - today Goloka, tomorrow Maya, today we fly, tomorrow aparadha.

The inspiration in a proportion with knowledge is necessary. Inspiration without knowledge - feelings, passing in fanaticism, knowledge without Inspiration - reflection. NOBODY can worship Radha Krisna not having a spiritual body, it is all Laksmi Narayana, in any case we not at this level. Whether so there is a sense to reject Vaikuntha? If there are distortions them it is possible to correct, if who that attacks it is possible to battle. Sucadav Gosvami the companion Radharany, from what it(he) has written all so much? Satyaradja you as Arjuna , it is necessary simply to develop according to sastra, instead of to invent, you sacred king, " rise and battle, about Arjuna . " Radharany it is good, but if to speak only about it that a head a pain.

It is necessary to go in the steps Sucadav Gosvami , and to understand a parity(ratio) of categories, correctly glorifying a spiritual nature. Here there is not devoted, this insult, to preach ýçîòåðè÷åñêèå of a thing, especially it is not valid, you see. Õàðè áîë, Êàèëàñà.

[talasiga]

Originally posted by kailasa:

, this insult, to preach ýçîòåðè÷åñêèå of a thing, especially it is not valid, you see. Õàðè áîë, Êàèëàñà.

Dear Kailasa

Mountain of this Forum

What is it that you are rendering in Russian

and why?

Yours below

Talasiga

 

 

[amanpeter]

Awe and reverence based on fear can stifle the natural expression of spontaneous emotion propelled by the desire for intimacy. Sometimes `Godness` interferes with love...

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...