Bad fruit? Is it possible? What does it mean?

[R]

I wish I could say that my 5 years within ISKCON had left me full of good faith, but rather the opposite is true.

 

At first I felt that a long, sincere approach was most appropriate...of course...one that did not challenge. Who was I to Challenge?

 

This reminds me, who am I now? Just a very confused jerk. The jerk part never changes.

 

Please don't let my words appear holy. I've described myself. But where does one go in my state? My mind remembers something once said: "that a holy tree cannot produce bad fruit." I love that. But it only deepens the confusion.

 

I couldn't help notice the way or manner that SP walked...his head up so high. So easy for him to accept worship, as the go-between, between us and Lord Krishna.

 

Where's the bottom line? Why would the holy tree produce such an abundance of bad fruit? What does this mean? Just to confuse me? More bad fruit. This man...SP...creating so much bad fruit? How odd now that I think about it. And there is no question that he did create it.

 

Am I allowed to ask? I mean no harm. I think after all of this, I should be able to wonder. I don't know up from down. I will wait for a week before saying more. Sincerely, R

 

 

[Gauracandra]

This analogy that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit can only be taken so far. On a purely literal level this is certainly not true. You can have the best seeds, from the best genetic stock of plants, but then you also have to consider other factors such as temperature, soil, water, sunlight etc.... Srila Prabhupada accepted anyone. Its not as though he was working with the best of the best, the children of aristocracy who went to the top schools. He accepted anyone. In a period of 12 years he threw seeds all over the world. From Russia, Chile, America, Canada, France, Africa, Japan etc.... He did this purposely because, I'm sure he knew that many seeds would be barren. But in some areas the soil, temperature, water, sunlight etc... would be just right and would create other trees to go on producing more fruit. These seeds from these trees would go to other parts of the world as well, and again some seeds would be barren, others grow but be stunted, and others would flourish. This in my opinion, on a practical level, is why he organized Iskcon in such a flat organizational model. He saw that after his guru passed away his organization was destroyed because one bad person took charge. As such, Srila Prabhupada made every single temple in Iskcon independent. Each temple has separate incorporation papers. As such, the temples are really only a loose confederation. The Florida temple has no connection with the Seattle temple, which has no connection with the Berkely temple,which has no connection with the New York Temple etc.... It was so spread out that no one person could take over the entire organization. As such, while in some areas bad management may occur, in other areas the temples went on nicely. From an organizational perspective this is not a good model in terms of focused, directed energy. If Iskcon was like most religions, with a top down management, and all temples organized under one leader, we could build a new temple every single year without question.

 

So what should you do? My advice is not to dwell on the past. In every organization and religion people will have bad experiences. I'm reminded of a co-worker, who left my company just as I was starting. He was really into Buddhism. So one day he chucked it all and decided to go to India to be a Buddhist monk. Within one year he was back in the states very bitter. All he saw was hypocrisy. The monks he met didn't meet his expectations.

 

The best thing you can do is look within and find out what it is you are looking for. I can't give you that. No organization can give you that. Simply become meditative and search inwards, not outwardly, for what it is you are looking for. If you are still attracted to Vaisnavism, perhaps try some other fruit from some other branch. There are many nice vaisnava's from all sorts of groups (Tripurari, Narayan Maharaj, Bhakti Vaibhav Puri Maharaj etc....). But don't bother dwelling on the past. Look forward to the future and actively search for the meaning you are looking for. Take care.

 

Gauracandra

 

 

[DayalGovinda dasa]

I think that in my reply I may echo some of the sentiment expressed by Gauracandra so forgive me if I do.

Using the analogy of a tree will only get us so far, the tree may be perfect but in one year the yeild may be attacked by bugs or frost etc. Some of the fruit will overcome this and go on to ripen fully, these are the fruits we should judge it by.

A fault with your thinking is that the fruit from a tree is not concious (as we are) and thus does not represent how our desires and conditioning may carry us away. The guru can only do so much, it is ultimately up to the disciple to carry out the instructions that the guru has given him, he cannot be expected to live the discple's life for him.

We should, as I said, judge the tree by its best fruit and I can only assume that you have not yet seen all of the fruit from the Prabhupada tree.

Please do not be disheartened that you have these doubts and questions, if you are sincere then Krsna will reciprocate with that sincerity and send you a worthy guide, until then you could check into the dailysanga.com website and see how one of Prabhupada's disciples has fully ripened and is bearing fruit of his own.

in service

DayalGovinda dasa

[amanpeter]

Even supposedly `bad` fruit still may contain good seeds. Who knows what future lifetimes will bring? We're not in control, thank God! Remember, this is only the very begining of Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement. What Prabhupada did has NEVER been done before! Give it all time, prabhu. I find tears very helpful. Please write me personally, if you like. Sincerely, Peter

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

When an elephant walks through the forest, many snakes and jackals also follow behind to take advantage of the cleared path. We should not feel surprised by such things.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-11-2001).]

[dasanudas]

Did Jesus teach brother to kill brother?

Did Mohammed teach to kill women and children in the Name of Allah?

Did Gautama Buddha teach to eat and kill other sentient beings?

Are they all unholy trees?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Speaking of the third point, does anyone want to discuss the Dalai Lama? I'd like to hear some of your opinions; but if you do, maybe we should start another thread so we don't mix up this one.

[R]

First I want to thank the several individuals who were kind enough to respond to my posting. Thank you.

 

I would bet that there is more to my misgivings than I realize. The truth can be hidden beneath many layers, requiring a great effort to reach. I may never understand it.

 

I just can't help wondering about somethings. I remember being told how SP would be singing in class and go into deep spiritual trance. The implication that he was deeply intimate with Krishna. Or how he would just meet somebody in an elevator and presto, with uncanny spiritual vision and inspiration, give him first and second initiation on the spot. This was told to me by a very senior devotee. And there are other examples to illustrate the point that SP was spiritually embodied by the grace of Lord Krishna. There are books written on this subject. He was on par with the best of the best. This proved that SP was faultless. In SP own words, "A God-conscious person having a bad character, it is incompatible. It is not possible. You cannot find fault with him. That is God conscious."

 

"You cannot find fault with him"....I just can't figure out why such an elevated God-conscious saint would select and empower the kind of men he picked to give the greatest power to. I mean, spiritual power is so great. It is nothing to mess around with. And yet I don't like what I see. Especially when you look back at the history of these individuals after the SP era. One man was caught having an affair with a young girl. One man was having sex with little boys in the holiest place in India. One man was taking LSD and had his head chopped off. Even though SP said that a KC person is without fault, one "guru" was stripped for a time of his powers due to his bad deeds. One was caught with automatic weapons in the truck of his car and later thrown out. I mean, the list goes on and on.

 

I just wonder...and I wonder respectively, without ill intent...how is it that SP...so close to Lord Krishna...could have selected such a bunch of rotten apples? And these men he empowered inflicted to much pain and suffering on others.

 

Am I wrong to see fault here? And if there is fault, what about the quote I just mentioned from SP?

 

Again, I am not participating here out of hate. OF course, years ago I would have NEVER asked such questions. How could I have? Is it wrong to ask now? I realize that these are not nice questions. If you think I should just drop out of this Web site, I will. I certainly don't mean to upset anyone. Again, thank you for providing me the opportunity to participate here. Sincerely, R

[Maitreya]

Yes and Jesus had Judas.And a great list of fanatics who have done horrors in his name after that.

Muhummad has scores of people even today bombing in his name[see the world review forum].

What world teacher doesn't have such people commiting atrocities while disquised as their followers?

 

Fly or the bee,which one is me?

 

YS MC

[DayalGovinda dasa]

It is a shame that your experience of Srila Prabhupada's movement has left you with this doubts, but understandable.

SP says that one who is Krsna Consciouness has no fault, that is true. What should be asked is 'are these persons KC?'

By becoming KC one develops all good qualities, this is how we are to judge someone.

Prabhupada said that his only fault is that he initiated so many unqualified people. This should not be taken as a disqualification on SP's part though, rather we should see it as his immense generosity and compassion that he bestowed upon these people the gift of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Disciple means to be disciplined, if we are then we should see positive qualities coming in our character, if we are not then we can hardly blame our guru.

Again I assume that you haven't seen all of Prabhupada's disciples. He said himself that he would consider his movement succesful if he created one pure devotee.

I suggest that you pray sincerely to Nityananda Prabhu to show you who to connect with, if you are sincere he will not ignore your plea.

I hope this meets you well

In service

DayalGovinda dasa

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Yes and Jesus had Judas.And a great list of fanatics who have done horrors in his name after that.

Muhummad has scores of people even today bombing in his name[see the world review forum].

What world teacher doesn't have such people commiting atrocities while disquised as their followers?

 

Fly or the bee,which one is me?

 

YS MC

As usual, MC, you give your arm-chair simplistic conclusion; 'all 11 men that SP put on the list just before his death were all, in fact, Judases and followers in diguise only.' Which actually makes SP appear to be completely ignorant of his 'hand-picked' leaders actual inner nature and character, something the guru is supposed to be intimately aware of. If they were all Judases, they surely SP would not have given them positions, even before his death, of authority and the power to not only make decisions in the lives of the general population of devotees, but to recieve honour and respect as SP's representatives.

I have written extensively about this very topic, on VNN and Chakra forums and elsewhere. I see no other cause that Krishna, Who can and has (as evidenced in the Srimad Bhagwatam) put his surrendered devotees under the spell of Daivi Maya in order to teach a very important lesson to the world. I can't speak for the other 'fallen gurus' and sannyasis, but I do know that Jayatirtha was faultless in his service to his guru and the devotees from the time he joined the movement in the late 60's and became the temple president of Los Angeles as well as president of Spiritual Sky Scented Products by the time he was 24 (with a big write up in the Wall Street Journal for rescuing the floundering business and transforming it within a year into a multi-million dollar enterprise). Any devotee in the movement at that time can testify that he was a kind person, inspired many, many devotees in their service and praised on many occasions by SP. Then what happened? He 'made the list' (on of the 11 appointed gurus) at the young age of 29 and there was a gradual decline into madness from that point one. The guru is non-different from God, shakshad hari, over and over and over again, chanted every day, 3 times a day by hundreds of diciples around the world. So when he heard a voice tell him to 'take up the path of lsd', while meditating at Radha Kund no less, he naturally accepted it as the voice of Sri Radha, and agreed to what he believed was part of Krishna's plan for delivering the world. As time went on he struggled with the 'mandate', trying to believe himself to be 'non-different' until he truly believed it. When one is shak-shad hari, all one's desires, thoughts, impulses are 'completely spiritual', there is no room for improvement because one is already perfect. When his disciple of 10 years questioned him about his 'latest impulses' and was told that if he couldn't "accept every activity of the spiritual master as completely spiritual" then he had "no place in the spiritual world". Booted out after a decade of unquestioning service and devotion. The old Jayatirtha would never have been so mean, so cruel, so arrogant. He became corrupted with power and position. He was not a Judas, but he was sacrificed, in that sense, by Krishna to teach a very important lesson. Lower than the straw in the street, devoid of all sense of false prestige, ready to offer respects to everyone and expect none for himself.

Amen

 

[Guest guest]

Bhaktavaysa is so burned out from her thousand acid trips that she still has not come down. Jayatirtha never stopped dropping acid after initiation, so how was his service faultless? He disobeyed the orders of the spiritual master from Day One, so he was thefore worthless. Get a grip lady, and take off your rose colored glasses. You are still in love with him.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Bhaktavaysa is so burned out from her thousand acid trips that she still has not come down. Jayatirtha never stopped dropping acid after initiation, so how was his service faultless? He disobeyed the orders of the spiritual master from Day One, so he was thefore worthless. Get a grip lady, and take off your rose colored glasses. You are still in love with him.

Excuse me, RA, but you are bearing false witness. Someday the authentic version will be told by all the witnesses who were there. In Jayatirtha's case, his wife of 10 years in Iskcon, Manjuali and those who knew him on an intimate friendship basis will testify that it was 5 years after his 'appointment' as a guru and 13 years after receiving initiation from SP that he took lsd, His time with Tim Leary was previous to that initiation.

If we haven't learned to tell the truth, the last remaining leg left of Dharma, eternal Dharma that is, then our testimonials and realizations will be just so much spittle in the wind.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am not bearing false witness, Bhaktavaysa. I am repeating what JT personally told me in 1986. Save your spittle for the wind.

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

I am not bearing false witness, Bhaktavaysa. I am repeating what JT personally told me in 1986. Save your spittle for the wind.

You are definetly a liar. While Jayatirtha was in Iskcon, as temple president of Los Angeles he was engaged in service 24-7, worshipping the Deity (SP said he was the achary a Deity worship) along with Manjuali, working at Spritual Sky, he never had the time to go anywhere to find lsd and Manjuali would certainly have known if he did. The same thing when he went to England, he was always in the company of other devotees, from mangal arotike, after the morning program he used to council devotees for hours, and whenever he travelled anywhere as GBC he was always accompanied by at least one other devotee. I lived with him for 5 years (1982-87) and was certainly more intimate and taken into his confidence than anyone else at that time. He told me, and there was no reason to doubt him, that the first time he took lsd was after the 'experience' at Radha Kund in India, 5 years after he was appointed as guru.

Anybody can make up a name like XYZ and say 'Jayatirtha (or anyone else) told me (fill in the blanks). Hardly convincing.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

And we are supposed to believe the slut that slept with him for five years? And you think he was telling you the truth? You are the one that thinks he was an expansion of Krsna, and you thought you were Radharani. You are pathetic, witch. At least JT got smart in the end and dumped you for a newer model, I gotta respect him for that, no matter how long it took him.

[Maitreya]

 

Originally posted by R:

I wish I could say that my 5 years within ISKCON had left me full of good faith, but rather the opposite is true.

 

Which five years?Where did you put your faith?In an institution?If so no wonder you are disappointed.

At first I felt that a long, sincere approach was most appropriate...of course...one that did not challenge. Who was I to Challenge?

 

It is a gradual process.Challenge?Inquiry is better and it is the students duty to make relevant inquiries,submissively yes, and with service, but not blindly to an impersonal concept like an institution.This is personalism not institutionalism.

 

The institution is there as a vehicle for preaching, not as a substitute guru.

 

This reminds me, who am I now? Just a very confused jerk. The jerk part never changes.

 

True.We are all jerks for rejecting Krishna, and you are no exception.But its temporary.

Please don't let my words appear holy.

 

They don't.

 

I've described myself.

 

No, just your false self.

 

But where does one go in my state?

 

To the Lord in the heart for guidance.

 

My mind remembers something once said: "that a holy tree cannot produce bad fruit." I love that. But it only deepens the confusion.

 

Then you don't understand it.

 

I couldn't help notice the way or manner that SP walked...his head up so high. So easy for him to accept worship, as the go-between, between us and Lord Krishna.

 

Sounds envious.Should he have walked around displaying a false sense of humility like you with the "I'm a jerk" act?

 

Prabhupada is a lion.One who is gentle AND ferocious,regal as well.It's the hyenas, like us, that must slink around.

 

Where's the bottom line? Why would the holy tree produce such an abundance of bad fruit?

 

He didn't.

 

What does this mean? Just to confuse me? More bad fruit. This man...SP...creating so much bad fruit? How odd now that I think about it. And there is no question that he did create it.

 

No question that he did NOT.You admit to being confused on this point so why take your own conclusions seriously?You were confused before and you still are and will be as long as you continue to impose you false conclusions onto Krishna's devotee.

 

Am I allowed to ask? I mean no harm.

 

What if someone said "no, you are not allowed to ask";would you accept it?Still seeking group approval?You are the one suffering your own karma as we all do.No one should be so weak as to let the failings of others keep us from intensifying our search for reality.

 

This is a Life and death struggle, this attempt to reject maya and accept Krishna.

 

Weakness is not exactly meekness.To recognize our weakness before the Lord and His representitive makes us meak and a fit vessel for His strength to come through us.Krishna personally held Prabhupada's head up while saying"This is My good Son in whom I am well pleased."The pride you sensed was Krishna's pride in His faithful servant coming through.

 

When we surrender to Krishna in love then we will also be able to hold our heads up.Until then we should keep them down.

 

It is like disciple and guru are the same person.Relative to his guru, guru is disciple.Relative to us he is guru.So the point is a humble person doing the work of jagad-guru will allow himself to be a via medium to the All Strong One, Krishna.

 

I think after all of this, I should be able to wonder. I don't know up from down. I will wait for a week before saying more. Sincerely, R

 

Again you say you don't know up from down, but yet you conclude that SP bore bad fruit.If he made only one true devotee that is proof that that he is a tree well rooted in Vaikuntha.

 

The fact is the material world is the tree of bad fruit.Sometimes those fruits take on the external appearance of the good fruit in imitation but they remain rotten inside.

 

I hope my straight forward response didn't offend you R.

 

MC

 

 

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

And we are supposed to believe the slut that slept with him for five years? And you think he was telling you the truth? You are the one that thinks he was an expansion of Krsna, and you thought you were Radharani. You are pathetic, witch. At least JT got smart in the end and dumped you for a newer model, I gotta respect him for that, no matter how long it took him.

Oh, gee, I wonder who this could be. None other than BB. You've called me a slut more than a few times, and you must be 'itching' for a response. What goes on between 2 married adults, or any adults for that matter, in the privacy of their bedrooms is nobody's business but their own. You might as well say that any woman who has sex with her husband or lover is a slut...not a very spiritually evolved vision.

The sex act generally never lasts more than a few minutes; when 2 people are in a relationship as intensely as we were, 99.9% of the time was spent going through a whole lot of other things together, not all necessarily as benign as cuddling up and doing 'the thing', (that you seem to detest so much). Attraction and repulsion, 2 sides of the same coin. Give it up, for Christ's sake.

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

And we are supposed to believe the slut that slept with him for five years? And you think he was telling you the truth? You are the one that thinks he was an expansion of Krsna, and you thought you were Radharani. You are pathetic, witch. At least JT got smart in the end and dumped you for a newer model, I gotta respect him for that, no matter how long it took him.

As for me 'thinking he was an expansion of Krishna', you are dead wrong on that one. Ditto me thinking, at any time, that I was Radharani. In fact, him being Krishna and Lord Chaitanya was one of the things we used to fight about, from a month after we first got together, in Cornwall, England, to Goa, in Nepal, all the way to California. That was his illusion, and after a while I figured that's why Krishna brought us together, so I could give him a reality check on that. The idea that Krishna expands himself into innumerable forms to be with each gopi (hearted person)seemed to be worthy of exploration. What a wonderful world it would be if 2 people could love each other by allowing Radha and Krishna to manifest in their hearts was the Big Dream Experiment, in the beginning. The more he thought he was Krishna, the more the experiment went off the tracks. The flight to Hawaii was his way of pushing the envelop to see if he really was; Krishna in Dwarka with thousands of wives, just like Prabhupad's astrologers predicted when they said he would be the most famous spiritual master on the planet by the year 2000 and 'thousands of women' would come to take shelter of him. He was set up by Krishna, to show that only Krishna Himself is capable of loving fully and spiritually satisfying His devotees. Anyone fool enough to believe that he/she can take the place of Him can only come to ruin.

After playing that role for Krishna, and sufferring such an inglorious end because of it, I have no doubt that he is somewhere where he is serving the Divine Couple in a more natural, blissful way.