Bhakti as the ultimate goal beyond mukti

[kailasa]

This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.

 

[Guest guest]

>> Before I respond, is this a good summary of the elements in your posting?(Talasigaji)

 

Yes, you should summarize even more by stating that no religious discipline can made one attain Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Truth.

 

[Guest guest]

 

>> This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.(Kailasa)

 

This knowledge may lead one to the 4th stage of conscience, samadhi and its several gradations. This knowledge cannot make one attain the 5th stage of conscience, Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Reality. To attain this platform Hari states in Gitopanisada 18.66 that one should abandon all kind of dharma including this raja-yoga. Brahmaji has attained deep samadhi but he has not attained the 5th stage of conscience, Hari's full realization. According to Bagavatha Purana, Brahmaji has never seen Hari face to face, only by samadhi. There is a gulf of difference between these two kinds of realizations.

 

There is no scarcity of examples of living entities who had attained the 5th stage of conscience being placed in a very tamasic position, such as demons, beasts and inanimate beings by Hari's grace. Perfection in religion may have many meanings, according individual's understanding of sadhya (goal).

 

[kailasa]

From same chapter.

 

O son of Partha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.

 

Other category

 

Others, who engage in sacrifice by the cultivation of knowledge, worship the Supreme Lord as the one without a second, as diverse in many, and in the universal form.

 

Majesty Mahäräja Parékñit, know that all that I have described in reply to your proper inquiry is just according to the version of the Vedas, and it is eternal truth. This was described personally by Lord Kåñëa unto Brahmä, with whom the Lord was satisfied upon being properly worshiped.

 

>To attain this platform Hari states in Gitopanisada 18.66 that one should abandon all kind of dharma including this raja-yoga.

 

Yes, it is the maximum doctrines and while the man can come on this stage, it(he) passes much that. I think this not mechanical leaving only.

 

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

[shvu]

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

This is Prabhupada's translation of BG 7.19.

 

bahunAm janmanAmante jnanavAnmAm prapadyate |

vAsudevaha sarvamiti sa mahAtma sudurlabaha ||

 

There are no words in this verse which translate to "cause of all causes". The sanskrit words are vAsudevaha sarvamiti, which means "vAsudeva is everything (all this)". Hence the verse will translate to,

 

At the end of many births, the man of knowledge (jnanavAn) attains me, realizing that vAsudeva is everything. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

A dvaita-advaita problem

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-24-2001).]

[Gauracandra]

Semantics

[shvu]

 

This is a pet verse of the Advaitins to show non-duality. Hence it becomes very important to have the right translation, for some such verses. Apparently people in India in the past, have had hair-splitting discussions over the right meanings of certain words, for they cam make or break a position.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This knowledge may lead one to the 4th stage of conscience, samadhi and its several gradations. This knowledge cannot make one attain the 5th stage of conscience, Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Reality. To attain this platform Hari states...

You keep mentioning a fifth stage of consciousness. But there is no such thing mentioned in the scriptures. The fourth stage is known as turiya, the other three are jagrat (wakeful state), svapna (sleep state), and sushupti (deep sleep state).

 

These three states of consciousness also correspond to the physical, the mental, and the intellectual; the sthula sarira, sukshma sarira, and karana sarira; etc. Turiya, or the fourth state, refers to the state of the pure soul situated beyond matter.

 

There is no such thing as a fifth state, thus your statement:

 

To attain this platform Hari states...

is false, since Hari never speaks anything about it.

 

 

[kailasa]

There are no words in this verse which translate to "cause of all causes". The sanskrit words are vAsudevaha sarvamiti, which means "vAsudeva is everything (all this)". Hence the verse will translate to,

 

Concept " vAsudeva is everything ", as includes concept - reason of all reasons. If vAsudeva is everything, it(he) and reason of any reasons.

 

[kailasa]

This knowledge may lead one to the 4th stage of conscience, samadhi and its several gradations. This knowledge cannot make one attain the 5th stage of conscience, Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Reality. To attain this platform Hari states...

 

About 5 stages is written for tattva vadi. Let's allow 4 these releases, fifth love to the God. In any case the release follows before Love to the God. Brahma bhuta prasannatma...

 

[kailasa]

This knowledge may lead one to the 4th stage of conscience, samadhi and its several gradations. This knowledge cannot make one attain the 5th stage of conscience, Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Reality. To attain this platform Hari states...

 

About 5 stages is written for tattva vadi. Let's allow 4 these releases, fifth love to the God. In any case the release follows before Love to the God. Brahma bhuta prasannatma...

 

[animesh]

WOW! This thread has reached its third page

[animesh]

Shvu wrote:

My previous post on this thread, vanished after some time.

Cheers

 

 

Now, do you believe in miracles?

[Guest guest]

Turiya, or the fourth state, refers to the state of the pure soul situated beyond matter.

There is no such thing as a fifth state (Jndas)

 

According to Katha Upanisad 2.3.7-8:

 

"Beyond the senses is the mind, beyond the mind is the intellect, higher than the intellect is the Great Atman, higher than the Great Atman is the Unmanifest.

 

"Beyond the Unmanifest is the Person, all-pervading and imperceptible. Having realised Him, the embodied self becomes liberated and attains Immortality".

 

So, sruti clears inferred that there is a state beyond turiya where the Person is to be realized. Should we call it a 5th stage or a unnamed stage?

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 06-25-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Turiya, or the fourth state, refers to the state of the pure soul situated beyond matter.

There is no such thing as a fifth state (Jndas)

 

According to the Gaudiya's theology exposed in Jaiva Dharma by Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda, the main compendium of theology followed by Gaudiyas nowadays, this turiya or 4th stage of conscience is to be considered the stage of bhava. When one finally attains the perfection in bhava (after many lifetimes) the attains the state of a pure soul situated beyond matter, or his siddha-svarupa.

 

Did he has attained Hari in this condition? No, never. According the same theology in this perfect condition one should born in Vraja from a gopi's womb. At Vraja, under the direct instructions of gopis on how to reciprocate prema with Hari, if one attains perfection he will finally attain vastu-sidhhi and he will be transferred to aprakrta Vrindavana, attaining liberation from jada-jagad.

 

So, one should consider this stage of vastu-siddhi as the 5th stage of conscience, or the unnamed stage, where real mukti will happen.

 

In any situation, the attainment of this 5th stage is an exclusive prerogative of Hari's free will and nothing else.

 

[talasiga]

posted by Talasiga 06-22-2001 05:45PM

 

If you look at the lives of the great Vedantin saints their theistic (personal God) conclusions are stimulated by the experience of the Lord. It is not a conclusion of some dry philosophical speculation as one sees in Western Universities. All scholars acknowledge that the Sanatan Dharma philosophies are experiential.

 

Therefore these philosophical schools are experience driven and, in the context of this discussion, driven by the experience of the divine. The various schools of vedanta are different approaches to explain and test the validity of the experiences in terms of the valid means of knowledge which also includes the Revelations known as shrootis.

 

Unfortunately, Shvu's preoccupation with shrooti as the only means to knowing God, tends to disregard the experiential emphasis of the vendantins. For instance, without pratyaksha (perception)how could one know the shrootis? Therefore, even with this little example, one can see that pratyaksha must at least be equal to shabda as a valid means of knowledge.

 

By message posted 22 June 7:30PM Shvu critiqued the above posting.

Talasiga invited Shvu to review his critique and Talasiga set out some perceived errors in Shvu's critique.

Shvu has reviewed his critique and by posting of 23 June 7:06AM maintains his original position.

Talasiga now responds to Shvu's critique with the benefit of Shvu's review of his critique:-

 

1. Shvu asked, "Can you quote an example?"

Talasiga responds that Ramanuja is just one example. He is the leading acharya saint in the Vishishtaadvaita school of Vedaanta. Whilst in a very depressed state one day, he receives a Divine Vision and becomes enlightened (Gods Grace).

 

2. Shvu asks, "Do you mean to say that until one has some kind of experience, he cannot believe in God?"

 

Talasiga suggests that a more appropriate question to examine Talasiga's position would have been, "Do you mean to say experience of God displaces belief in God?"

 

3. Shvu asks, "So does one begin to seek to find out if there is a God, or does one set out to seek God with the premise that God exists as stated in Sruti?'

 

Talasiga suggests that there is a more fundamental question and asks, "What drives one to seek God per se or to seek about God in the Shrootis?"

 

And Talasiga also suggests that a more appropriate question to examine Talasiga's position would have been, "Do you mean to say that a person having an EXPERIENCE goes to the Shrootis to establish a BELIEF that either the experience is divine or that it is not divine?"

 

4. Shvu quotes Adi Shankara commentary to support his claim that Shrooti is the only way to know God.

 

Talasiga notes that

(a) Adi Shankara's commentary is not Shrooti;

(b) Adi Shankara's commentary is mere DIALECTIC about the concept of God as a discursive conclusion.

© Adi Shankara also said in commentary on Maandookya Kaarikaa (IV, 73) that scripture is an empirical object and therefore ILLUSORY and exists only as A means to the realisation of the Supreme.

 

5. Shvu also attempts to support his claim that "God cannot be known thru [sic]means other than shruti" suggesting that Talasiga look at Kenopanishad.

 

Talasiga finds Kenopanishad a most powerful and inspiring scripture but can find no statement in it that Shrooti is the only way to know God.

[Guest guest]

Shvu attempts to support his claim that "God cannot be known thru [sic]means other than shruti", Talasiga finds Kenopanishad a most powerful and inspiring scripture but can find no statement in it that Shrooti is the only way to know God.

 

It is very difficult to realize the obvious and the Lord's existence is the most obvious and basic fact of all ! It may cause sweat!!! One of the points mentioned in Sri Yamunastakam is that the river form of the great goddess is rendered even more holy (than it already was) by its association with the sweat that the Lord and the gopies wased off after the Maha-rasa in its waters. This sweat is the sweat of searching for the Lord. Search for the Lord is long and arduous and the sweat one pours into this is very precious indeed.

 

 

[shvu]

 

 

1. Shvu asked, "Can you quote an example?"

 

Talasiga responds that Ramanuja is just one example. He is the leading acharya saint in the Vishishtaadvaita school of Vedaanta. Whilst in a very depressed state one day, he receives a Divine Vision and becomes enlightened (Gods Grace).

Finally, an example. I waited for circa 100 hours to get one.

 

Note that he had studied the Veda under yadavaprakshacharya in Kanchi at a young age. If this experience happened to him before his study, then one will have to reason, why he bothered with study after realization. It would also be interesting to examine, his commentary on BS 1.1.1-4.

 

2. Shvu asks, "Do you mean to say that until one has some kind of experience, he cannot believe in God?"

 

Talasiga suggests that a more appropriate question to examine Talasiga's position would have been, "Do you mean to say experience of God displaces belief in God?"

shvu in turn ask what the answer is to the earlier question. shvu also suggests that it is always better to answer the posted question and then suggest a better question.

 

Talasiga suggests that there is a more fundamental question and asks, "What drives one to seek God per se or to seek about God in the Shrootis?"

That is curiosity. A person who believes that sruthi was revealed, will learn about God from the shruti after which it ceases to be speculation. The actual process of seeking God begins after that.

 

And Talasiga also suggests that a more appropriate question to examine Talasiga's position would have been, "Do you mean to say that a person having an EXPERIENCE goes to the Shrootis to establish a BELIEF that either the experience is divine or that it is not divine?"

This is the question.

 

Talasiga notes that

(a) Adi Shankara's commentary is not Shrooti;

(b) Adi Shankara's commentary is mere DIALECTIC about the concept of God as a discursive conclusion.

Talasiga should also note that no one claimed shankara's commentary to be shruti. It was quoted as an example [as already said before, but apparently overlooked by you] to show that one vedAntin is clear that scripture is the only source to establish god beyond dispute. Madhva is also clear that Vishnu can be known only through scriptures. But I do not have access to his bsb, so cannot provide references. But if it is important, I may be able to locate them.

 

© Adi Shankara also said in commentary on Maandookya Kaarikaa (IV, 73) that scripture is an empirical object and therefore ILLUSORY and exists only as A means to the realisation of the Supreme.

And the only means, as said in his commentary on the brahma sutras.

 

Talasiga finds Kenopanishad a most powerful and inspiring scripture but can find no statement in it that Shrooti is the only way to know God.

 

Try the first chapter. That which is beyond the mind, etc implies that it cannot be known. Which is why shabda comes into the picture to reveal knowledge which cannot be known through logic or any other means.

 

God is not going to reveal himself at random to someone who has not been seeking or performed sadhana, or is not ripe, etc. If a person was seeking, it implies that he knows about God beforehand. How did he find out? Which is what my whole point is.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Shvu wrote:

My previous post on this thread, vanished after some time.

Cheers

 

Now, do you believe in miracles?

No, but I almost did at that moment.

Then I thought of two logical reasons for how it may have disappeared.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Talasigaji is correct in his premise, some saints had attained the Ultimate Reality being placed in a condition where they could not known any sruti, but some other evidence was present. Mirabai, for example, sings her experience as follows:

 

The plums tasted

sweet to the unlettered desert-tribe girl-

but what manners! To chew into each! She was ungainly,

low-caste, ill mannered and dirty,

but the god took the

fruit she'd been sucking.

Why? She'd knew how to love.

She might not distinguish

splendor from filth

but she'd tasted the nectar of passion.

Might not know any Veda,

but a chariot swept her away-

now she frolics in heaven, esctaticaly bound

to her god.

The Lord of Fallen Fools, says Mira,

will save anyone

who can practice rapture like that-

I myself in a previous birth

was a cowherding girl

at Gokul.

 

[shvu]

Talasigaji is correct in his premise, some saints had attained the Ultimate Reality being placed in a condition where they could not known any sruti, but some other evidence was present. Mirabai, for example, sings her experience as follows

Of course, there have been quite a few of them.

 

We are discussing knowledge of the supreme from a vedantin's perspective, or more generally from the perspective of someone who claims to represnt a vedic/vedAntic school.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 06-25-2001).]

[Guest guest]

We are discussing knowledge of the supreme from a vedantin's perspective, or more generally from the perspective of someone who claims to represnt a vedic/vedAntic school.(Shvu)

 

But according to sruti you are not following the perspective mentioned by it, as follows:

 

Kena Upanisad 2.3

 

'He by whom it (Brahman) is not thought, by him it is thought; he by whom it is thought, knows it not. It is not understood by those who understand it, it is understood by those who do not understand it.'

 

This sruti mantra seems to clarify the saints' perspective.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

That which is beyond the mind, etc implies that it cannot be known.

No, this is not correct. The mind (manas) is a material instrument used by the soul in the process of cognition. It is external to the self, and for this reason the Upanishads say "He" can not be known by the mind, nor the senses.

 

Brahman can be realized through pure consciousness. When one attains such a state of realization, it is direct perception, or pratyaksha. It requires no sruti for verification.

 

From our conditioned position, it is the unconditioned sruti which guides us towards the direct experience of the self and God. Therefore the brahma-sutras say "shastra yonitvat" - Shastra is the means to valid knowledge. Having attained that knowledge, everything is known, and nothing remains to be known. It is direct perception. Therefore Krishna states, pratyakshavagamam dharmyam, su-sukham kartum avyayam. The words su-sukham indicate the brahma-bhuta prasannatma stage, or the liberated soul.

 

[kailasa]

>God is not going to reveal himself at random to someone who has not been seeking or performed sadhana, or is not ripe, etc. If a person was seeking, it implies that he knows about God beforehand. How did he find out? Which is what my whole point is.

 

Let nevertheless to add. Basically it so, but is set of examples of obtaining darsan without any reasons. For example history with the fisherman and Lord Caitanya and set others. Nevertheless God is the person and nobody can It(him) limit, certainly brahman as His(its) aspect, brahman is real, it is possible in a case with brahman that you write and is.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Before I respond, is this a good summary of the elements in your posting?(Talasigaji)

 

Yes, you should summarize even more by stating that no religious discipline can made one attain Bhagavan's aspect of the Ultimate Truth.

 

An agreed summary of the elements in Satyaraja's post (in italics) follows accompanied by Talasiga comments in normal script:-

 

1. God realisation is the highest state of consciousness.

 

Agreed.

 

2. God realisation can only be had by God's Grace and is not dependent on the recipient having a particular state of consciousness.

 

Agreed, and this also comprehends item 6 below subject to qualifications noted there.

Noting also that, while God's Grace is independent, from the recipient's position the reception of the Grace

a) is dependent on God

b) is, subject to God's Grace, coloured by the recipient's state of consciousness.

c) may be perceived by the recipient as a specific grace

d) may be perceived by the recipient as perenial or inherent grace not previously recognised by the recipient

e) may not be perceived by the recipient at all.

3. The integrative process of material consciousness is facilitated by the instruments of the senses, mind, intellect and ego identity.

 

Agreed subject to

a) the clarification that consciousness is eternally an attribute of the spirit and, therefore, material consciousness can only mean consciousness predominated by material content and not a material consciousness that is distinct to spiritual consciousness.

b)noting that the ultimate "gestalten" of this integrative process is Brahman and

c)this Brahman pervades the continuum of existence as infinite gestatltens

((b) and © is atempting to say that God is the essence of the integrative or harmonising process and also its goal )

 

4. God is beyond the material and therefore the instruments of the senses, mind, intellect and ego identity serve no facility in relation to God consciousness.

 

Disagreed because

a) "beyond the material" is figurative and not meant to limit God locationally, noting that God is immanent (indwelling) as well as transcendent (beyond) and that "the material" cannot exist without God.

b) acknowledging Satyaraja's own precept at item 2, with God's Grace the instruments of the senses, mind, intellect and ego identity may serve a facility in relation to God consciousness.

 

5. The terms of a former experience cannot validly be extrapolated to predict the nature of a new experience whose content is markedly different to the content of the former experience.

 

This is a relatively true statement of absolutely no validity. The terms of all experiences are:-

a) a consciousness that experiences

b) the content of experience

c) the integraion elicited between the differing qualities and degrees of the consciousness and the content.

 

The nature of consciousness is of the Supreme.

The nature of the content is of the Supreme.

The nature of the integration is the Difference.

 

Therefore all experiences may be extrapolated as, in essence, the Supreme knowing the Supreme in Harmonious (or Integrated) Difference.

 

6. No religious discipline can guarantee the realisation of the Bhagavaan (Personal Being) aspect of God.

 

This is also subject to God's Grace which may be bestowed even on one who is practising a religious discipline. The Grace may itself be inherent in the discipline (compare specific Grace with perpetual or inherent Grace) for the Shabda itself asserts that Pranava Aum is non different to the Brahman and the Devotee of the Lord recognises that the Lord is non-different to His Name and Form.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 06-25-2001).]